Liesa, Shroud of Dusk - Combo Midrange

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

When I read the rules on life exchange effects, I'm not sure Axis of Mortality and Erebos work together. How I interpreted was that any opponents wouldn't be able to exchange life totals since they can't gain life. I would think the only way it would work is when you have less life than them, but how often is that the case? I can see running Tainted Remedy and Axis of Mortality. That's makes total sense during pretty much ANY upkeep situation.

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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

Axis of Mortality and Erebos work fine together. When someone is meant to gain life, instead they gain no life. The exchange counts as gaining life for the player that would in theory end up with the higher life total after the exchange, this is why Tainted Remedy combos with Axis of Mortality. If you were running a red/white deck, you can pull off a similar combo with Sulfuric Vortex and Axis of Mortality, which I've done in the past in my Gisela, Blade of Goldnight deck.

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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

It's the third ruling down on 9/29/17 for Axis of Mortality that's throwing me off: https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card ... eid=435154

"9/29/2017 If a player can't gain life, that player can't exchange life totals with a player with a higher life total. If a player can't lose life, that player can't exchange life totals with a player with a lower life total. In either of these cases, neither player's life total will change."

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Ruiner
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Post by Ruiner » 3 years ago

Huh, I had not seen that ruling before. Doesn't seem intuitive at first but reading more up on it I totally get it. Tainted Remedy and Sulfuric Vortex don't technically prevent lifegain like Erebos does, so they work fine with Axis of Mortality.

Erebos, God of the Dead is still pretty great for preventing lifegain and for being a card draw source though, so I still think he's a solid inclusion.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 3 years ago

Yes, from a card draw perspective and stopping others from gaining life I agree. Too bad it doesn't work with Tainted Remedy or Axis.

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RogHimself
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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Not sure if anyone is still active in this topic, but for the ones who are I would like to share my latest update of the deck.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/InAbTj_NWUmzLBZ89TVw_w

The deck became all about sniping opponents down, one by one. I have created as many ways as possible to do so. Let me give a write up of all potential ways to get those opponents to 0 or 1 life as soon as possible.

Liesa, Shroud of Dusk x Hatred
Liesa, Shroud of Dusk x Unspeakable Symbol
Axis of Mortality x Necropotence
Axis of Mortality x Unspeakable Symbol
Axis of Mortality x Tainted Remedy
Axis of Mortality x Hatred
Tree of Perdition x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim x Sanguine Bond
Tree of Perdition x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim x Vizkopa Guildmage
Tree of Perdition x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim x Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose
Tree of Perdition x Liesa, Shroud of Dusk x Unspeakable Symbol
Reverse the Sands x Wound Reflection
Reverse the Sands x Necropotence
Reverse the Sands x Hatred
Reverse the Sands x Tainted Remedy
Reverse the Sands x Unspeakable Symbol
Tainted Remedy x Beacon of Immortality
Tainted Remedy x Congregate
Tainted Remedy x Heliod's Intervention
Tainted Remedy x Swords to Plowshares
Exquisite Blood x Sanguine Bond
Exquisite Blood x Vizkopa Guildmage
Exquisite Blood x Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose
Necropotence x Martyr of Sands x Sanguine Bond
Necropotence x Martyr of Sands x Vizkopa Guildmage
Necropotence x Martyr of Sands x Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose
Wound Reflection x Revival // Revenge
Wound Reflection x Liesa, Shroud of Dusk x Unspeakable Symbol
Wound Reflection x Tree of Perdition
Wound Reflection x Sorin Markov
Bolas's Citadel x Children of Korlis/Tainted Sigil x Sanguine Bond
Bolas's Citadel x Children of Korlis/Tainted Sigil x Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose
Bolas's Citadel x Children of Korlis/Tainted Sigil x Vizkopa Guildmage
Necropotence x Children of Korlis/Tainted Sigil x Sanguine Bond
~

And the list goes on & on.

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, but I'm still slowly crafting my Liesa deck. It's runs in a similar vein to yours, but it's a bit more restrained on the life switching/tweaking. Mine's probably a bit more Swiss army knife in that I still kept the Rule of Law and Archon of Emeria effect to slow folks down. I've added a couple of cards to buff up Liesa for damage in Blackblade Reforged and Cradle of Vitality. But, I've also added in seven wrath effects to REALLY tamp down on creature damage in my meta. To also support that I've added in Batwing Brume and I was thinking of putting in Riot Control. However, I opted for Crypt Incursion to slow down any recursion decks, especially since I'm wrathing so much. That would also play quite nicely with Vito and/or Sanguine Bond. I contemplated running Axis of Mortality, but it seems so mana intensive for a card that does nothing immediately. I also chose to take out Wound Reflection for that reason as well. Do you all think that is a mistake? I do like Reverse the Sands for its immediacy, but it's even more mana intensive. Has that worked out for you at all?

I have only be able to test out my deck in a three-player game in the last two months and I won the first and came close in the second. I have tested it more in 1 vs 1 and it's usually pretty good. I'm getting Greed in the mail soon and like the idea of Unspeakable Symbol. I don't have Hatred and it's super pricey so I probably won't get it. Any thoughts on my deck? How has the High Priest of Penance played for you?

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RogHimself
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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Hey there,

I bought the deck in paper a few weeks ago and played it with my playground about 6 times so far (winrate >50% in 4 player game, not that it says a whole lot).

In the games that I have played Axis of Mortality has been an absolute all-star. Yes, the mana-cost can be steep, but this card alone finishes off opponents (and games). Six mana is not too much for that, i.m.o, especially since my list runs quite a decent amount of ramp. Academy Rector helps to find it as well. In my list it just synergizes too well for it not to run it, my deck is basically built around it. Having this card in my deck makes me feel safe for playing cards like Dark Confidant, Necropotence,Hatred, Bolas's Citadel, since they all come with a large price (life).

Haven't been able to put Wound Reflection on the field just yet. Have had it in my hand, but just had better stuff to do with the mana. At 6 mana it's quite costly as well. It feels less impactful than Axis of Mortality, but since it combo's with other cards I run I still feel pretty good about running it. I can see it be very impactful in certain situations. For example when I have a Sorin Markov, Tree of Perdition, Revival // Revenge or just to go in for double damage with our commander.

To be honest, I just ordered Reverse the Sands, so I haven't been able to test it out yet. Yeah it feels really mana-intensive. But it's another really sweet top-deck with Bolas's Citadel, and I cannot get enough of those sweet Bolas' topdecks that let's me keep giving gas (cards that serve a similar role are things like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Revival // Revenge, Beacon of Immortality and Congregate. Besides all of that it just really fits the theme of my deck with all the life-manipulation. Finally it just synergizes great with all the other cards that I included already (see my previous post). Added Enlightened Tutor so I can get Bolas's citadel out more quickly. Talking about the tutors.. they are such a sweet topdeck for the Citadel as well (search for Reverse the Sands for example? :-))

High Priest of Penance has been great. Used it in a previous deck before as well and worked great there as well. I like the rattlesnake effect of it (people wary to attack you since that might cost them a permanent), the political tool it provides (can you attack into it so I can destroy that permanent that bothers us both?) and how it's a recurrable target for Lurrus of the Dream-Den.

Hatred has a more budget WCD-version as well, see if you can find this anywhere.

If you want my opinion on your deck, please send me a link to an overview. One of the advises I can give you, is to choose one strategy and go all-in. For example, I have had cards in like Ankh of Mishra and Bloodchief Ascension before, because they drain my opponents slowly but surely. All this draining doesn't matter in the end if I'm going to switch life totals at one point, or just one-shot opponents, so there is no reason to run these. Makes me think about whether I should still run Kambal, Consul of Allocation


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RogHimself
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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Not saying you should definately run Axis of Mortality, it all just depends on the synergy that you get out of it together with the other cards that you run. At least, that's what I like to go for, as much synergy as possible.

So what's the main strategy of your deck? I see some stax pieces, which I assume are there to go for a long game. Question you have to ask yourself is how are you benefitting going long? And what cards will give you an edge over your opponents in the long game?

I see some Voltron aspects as well. My opinion is, that if you are going for a Voltron strategy, you should go all out. Another question that comes up that if you wish to go Voltron, is Liesa, Shroud of Dusk the best commander to do so?

There's a lot of boardwipes. Is your meta mainly creature-based? Seven pieces seem a lot. It also seems a bit counter-intuitive when you've suited up your commander to go in.

Having thought about Liesa quite extensively, I see three builds that fit her nicely. Either an OTK-build like I did, a more punisher strategy with small bits of damage which add up over time (stax works nice here), or an angel-focused build (voltron pieces works good there). Doing a bit of everything leads to doing a whole lot of nothing - and losing games.

Just my 2 cents :-)

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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Well, I guess that's my problem in that I haven't fully committed to a primary strategy. I'm dabbling, but so far it's proven to be effective particularly against creature decks, which runs heavy in my meta. As for my wraths, I've tried to choose them for more flexibility with the possibility of keeping Liesa still on the board. A couple are in there mostly for mass enchantment and/or artifact removal if needed. I could swap out either Hour of Revelation or Fumigate for Tragic Arrogance further the one-sidedness. The beauty of Liesa is that she's easy to bring back if she does go.

Maybe I should remove the Voltron package, so I can further commit to the OTK-build. (I do run a voltron Tuvasa deck that's pretty decent and fully committed to that.) I'm already on that path anyway.

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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Committing to one plan sounds like a good plan. Speaking of which, made me think about some cards and decided the following swaps:

Out:
Kambal, Consul of Allocation
Painful Quandary

In:
Wall of Blood
Boon Reflection

Both fit more nicely with the overall plan of my deck I guess. Really enjoyed the punish effects of Kambal and Quandary, but oh well.. better to kill someone straight away right?

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Post by Ruiner » 2 years ago

I think it you are really leaning heavy into life exchange, then maybe Selenia, Dark Angel would possibly be an alternative commander to consider since she is really good at enabling that sort of thing. That is, if you are dropping the group slug elements except the commander herself anyway.

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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/InAbTj_NWUmzLBZ89TVw_w

Just an update on a lot of changes I have made. Really satisfied how it runs at the moment. Safe to say it has grown as my favorite deck currently.

Cards that I put in the deck over the last few weeks:

Ranger-Captain of Eos // Redudancy for Recruiter of the Guard. Finds the 1 mana pieces. Added bonus to sac it before I get in for an attack, so I can't be surprised by a combat trick.
Esper Sentinel // More card draw yes. Boostable with Unspeakable Symbol. Recurrable with Lurrus of the Dream-Den. Easily tutorable.
Serra Ascendant // Since my deck is focussed more on lifegain, this is too much value for one mana. Tutorable. Recurrable. Rattlesnake. Lifegainer.
Nykthos Paragon // Extra wincon. Can get my creatures huge, which makes them even greater sacrifice material for Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim. Combined with all instant speed life gain abilities this can come of as a surprise after blockers are declared!
Doom Whisperer // Premium card selection, which can go very deep every turn to find missing pieces. Trample beater. Plus free instant speed lifeloss for Axis of Mortality.
Duelist's Heritage // Just too much value combined with my commander, and even more with Nykthos Paragon (gain life after first strike damage).
Stinging Study // Just more value than Sign in Blood
Archaeomancer's Map // Since I'm running as much white cards as possible for Martyr of Sands, this is just more value over a 2 cmc rock.
Solitude// Way more flexible than Path to Exile, just fit's the deck way better overall. Running plentyful of white cards to always be able to cast this for free. Also recurrable :-). And another lifegain creature is always welcome.
Alhammarret's Archive // Can't have enough of the lifegain doublers. Card draw doubling as a huge bonus.
Aetherflux Reservoir // My experience with playing is that I have so much life. Great pay-off. Love to hold the gun over people.
Phyrexian Reclamation // Deck reached a treshold of >20 (important!) creatures which justifies this i.mo.
Opal Palace // Kill my commander? Re-cast it for 5 mana and comes with more counters each time.
Secluded Steppe, Barren Moor // Good interaction with Alhammarret's Archive or Bolas's Citadel

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 2 years ago

Sorry guys, I decided to drop Liesa after Sythis was spoiled and return to my old love, enchantress decks. I hope people who search for Liesa, Shroud of Dusk decklists will still find this topic and all the posted decklists useful :)!

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 2 years ago

[UPDATE]

I do not want to give up on Liesa after all. Made some small changes, but not sure what direction I want to take the deck in yet.
Changelog 18/12/2021
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The Changes:

- Cartographer's Hawk: Cute little hawk made place for a two mana rock. Might find his way back in.
- Eradicator Valkyrie: Not too impactful I feel.
- Gonti, Lord of Luxury: Does not really contribute to the overal gameplan. Was included as filler.
- Keeper of the Accord: Does not really ramp towards many cards. I'd rather run a bunch of extra two-mana rocks.
- Kunoros, Hound of Athreos: Hmmm.... I have not played against many graveyard based strategies so far. The body is not too impactful. Out for now.
- Seraph of the Scales: Flavourful angel, but does not really contribute much.

+ Charcoal Diamond: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Coldsteel Heart: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Marble Diamond: Including some extra ramp to get to my top end quicker and more consistently.
+ Rune-Scarred Demon: Tutor and beatstick to top off the curve together with Vilis.
+ Swiftfoot Boots: Already included the Lightning Greaves. I think the Boots are worth including too.
+ Vilis, Broker of Blood: Synergises nicely with Liesa's ability. Come swith a hefty mana cost though. Let's test it out.



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ChocoDude
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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Just writing to say "Yay!" that you're keeping your Liesa deck alive. I'm still around as I'm sure RogHimself and Ruiner are as well. My deck is still in a state of flux as I haven't focused on a single theme. I shifted to a mostly life-exchanged deck and really didn't enjoy it as much, so now I'm moving more towards a stax/lifegain/voltron variant. You can see my deck if you click on the mana symbols next to Liesa in my signature. Sometimes I want to shift it to angel tribal. She's quite the open-ended commander and I just haven't leaned fully into any specific theme. I really like playing Rule of Law and Archon of Emeria and other cards that slow the build down some as well as boardwipes to play pre-Liesa. When I have played her she tends to start out fairly strong and folks gang up and take her down. So, I'm trying to determine how to make her seem less visible to start. Anyway...welcome back!

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Post by Haman » 2 years ago

LaHistorica -
Somewhere in the middle of the thread, life gainning angels with liesa is probably the way to go.
Having more ways to keep Liesa around is probably better than having more ways to win. the fact that liesa dies alot. keeping her around, just moderate and slows down spellslinging comboish decks.
What if you are playing cards that cut's player life into half... having 20 life means the other players have to think hard about which spell to cast

ChocoDude -
I think kambal is a better lifechange cmdr than liesa.. I only cast him once/twice in the early games to do a life heist then I proceed to "throw away my life", using the extra life to convert them into cards or wincon

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Post by RogHimself » 2 years ago

Yes I'm still rocking my Liesa deck. I did put it away for a little while since I used many pieces in my Killian, Ink Duelist deck, but lately started putting it back together.

It's safe to say that this deck has the highest winrate out of all of my decks, playing with my usual playground (usually play with around 5/6 people). The ability to kill the entire table off quite consistently makes it really deadly.

Decklist:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/InAbTj_NWUmzLBZ89TVw_w

I've been removing and adding pieces as time went and feel like my build came to it's final form for about 95%. It mainly focusses on Bolas's Citadel, gaining life and kill with Aetherflux Reservoir, killing the table with Vizkopa Guildmage or sniping someone down with my commander boosted with Hatred, Duelist's Heritage or Unspeakable Symbol. All of these different ways to kill is what make my build so deadly imho.

Some noteworthy additions/cuts:

ADDED
+ Authority of the Consuls - Awesome awesome card. My build is quite slow, it tends to focus mainly on ramp in the early game, this 1 mana slows opponents down plus the life gain is really good as well.
+ Blind Obedience - Slows the game down even more.
+ Land Tax - The deck is manahungry, and we want to play a land on every turn.
+ Insidious Dreams - Unique (pseudo-)tutor. Allows me to stack my library in such a way that Bolas's Citadel gets the perfect draws.
+ Resolute Archangel - Love to use it when we're pinched down, gives us a fresh breath of life and (re)-allows it to take it from there.
+ Unearth - 1 mana to get Esper Sentinel, Children of Korlis, Weathered Wayfarer, Vizkopa Guildmage or Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose from our 'yard. Or just cycle away that land on top when Bolas's Citadel is active.
+ Wall of Reverence - Pay 4 mana to cast it, then reap the benefits turn after turn without spending resources. Love it combined with Serra Ascendant, Hatred or Unspeakable Symbol and of course my life doublers like Sanguine Bond
+ Exquisite Blood - Classic combo with Sanguine Bond, I cut it before since it felt cheap, but my friends play it as well nowadays so no reason to hold back.

REMOVED
- Tree of Perdition - I like this card that functions as a rattlesnake (basically a secondary Aetherflux), but the 4 mana and whole turncycle was too slow for my taste. Works better in a Slug/Drain build.
- Wound Reflection - Same as the above, too slow, and works better in a slug/drain build.
- Axis of Mortality - Slow as hell. Really fun though. But in some cases doesn't do a whole lot besides frustrating the rest of the table and grouping up together against you.
- Academy Rector - Since I removed a lot of key enchantments this lost it's value. Not worth it in decks without a sac outlet IMHO.

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Post by BlackbirdPlaysMTG » 2 years ago

ChocoDude wrote:
2 years ago
Anyway...welcome back!
Thank you! I am glad this thread is still alive. I have been focusing on my other decks (Sythis and Feather), but I figured out optimal builds for those (from a personal viewpoint at least), so now I have time again to make Liesa work (and build a monogreen deck, I really want one).
Haman wrote:
2 years ago
Having more ways to keep Liesa around is probably better than having more ways to win. the fact that liesa dies alot. keeping her around, just moderate and slows down spellslinging comboish decks.
Yeah... she gets hated off the table quite a bit. You will always be able to recast her of course, but it is worth investing in ways to keep her around... things like Boots, Greaves and Mother of Runes, etc
RogHimself wrote:
2 years ago
Yes I'm still rocking my Liesa deck. I did put it away for a little while since I used many pieces in my Killian, Ink Duelist deck, but lately started putting it back together.

It's safe to say that this deck has the highest winrate out of all of my decks, playing with my usual playground (usually play with around 5/6 people). The ability to kill the entire table off quite consistently makes it really deadly.

Decklist:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/InAbTj_NWUmzLBZ89TVw_w
Nice decklist! It is good to have ways to actually kill people consistently. I did not know about the existance of unearth, but it is a nice little card.

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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

I just stumbled upon this thread as I was doing some research for my Liesa deck and I have to say I like what I'm reading here, especially the experiences with her, since she seems really hard to build around in a way that everything in the deck just clicks and synergises. So after 6 months of building her, actually inspired by the Mogis, God of Slaughter, I decided to go the Group Slug/ Tax/ Control route (before that I tried a combination of Angel and Life Gain) and I had the most success with that variant of the deck. This is the deck list at the moment:

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/GyzeufjtJUOpAz4Azxql_w

I am open for discussion about the deck, since I am still tweaking bits and pieces.
The deck's main goal is to get her out, put hexproof and indestructible on her and have her protected on the battlefield for as long as possible. After she is out on the battlefield, the goal is to make opponents invest resources to try to build their board, lose life in the process and then do it again after I mess up their board state. I am running two combos in the deck: Heliod + Ballista, Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond/ Vito/ Vizkopa Guildmage. The third win condition can be Debt to the Deathless/ Exsanguinate + Crypt Ghast + Urborg. In addition, the deck has ways to eliminate one player at a time like Wound Reflection + Revenge or Vito + Beacon of Immortality.

I am playing in mixed metas with Willowdusk and +1/+1 counter craziness, Grand Arbiter Augustin + mill, Mizzix and at the more casual tables I often face Naya big creature decks and token strategies of various colors. Regarding her getting tons of hate from the table - I totally agree, however, I usually experience that at casual tables and if I am the only player playing tax, stax or control.

So yeah, at the moment I am trying to find the perfect balance for the deck and speaking from experience I think I am close, but it needs a just a little bit more work and testing.

EDIT: I figured I could say a couple of words about cards that don't usually see play in Liesa decks:

Professor Onyx - card advantage + removal. Magecraft can easily be triggered in this deck, since I'm playing 28 instants/ sorceries.

Archfiend of Depravity - since this deck doesn't want people to have a lot of creatures on the board, this creature is a pseudo-boardwipe on a body, 5/4 flyer for 5, nothing to scoff at. In addition, most boardwipes in the deck are "destroy" boardwipes, so one more card that makes players sacrifice is a good addition, especially against token decks.

Junji, the Midnight Sky - both effects are useful and making opponents discard so far has proven valuable. The second effect can get great value if you reanimate a creature with a powerful ETB effect.

Cradle of Vitality - something I am testing. Since she will be indestructible and have hexproof most of the time, why not make her bigger? 20/20 or 30/30 is easily achieveable and since I don't run incremental/ small life gain, this card could enable bigger chunks of life gain.

Pestilence - a classic group slug card, pseudo-board wipe and a useful mana sink. It gets even more powerful if Wound Reflection is in play.

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Post by ChocoDude » 2 years ago

Recently modified my deck from a primarily muddled lifegain/stax theme to more of a lifegain/pain/less-staxy theme. It's playing SOOO much better now. Dropped the CMC down to 2.68. Had a fun time shutting down a Heliod, Sun-Crowned lifegain deck with Tainted Remedy and thoroughly enjoyed taking out another player's 5/5 flyer with Swords to Plowshares in which they LOST five life because of Tainted Remedy. Nice little perk!!
Last edited by ChocoDude 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

Vedran
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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

Can you share the most recent list?

Nice! Tainted Remedy + Heliod is an amazing political tool, too. Congregate + Tainted Remedy eliminates an aggro/swarm/token player instantly.


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Post by Vedran » 2 years ago

Nice deck, looks really strong!

At the moment I am trying to find the balance between the life gain part and the punisher part of the deck and it seems to me that I am a bit short on the life gain side. I am in need of some good cards that give big chunks of life at once or give the life back and I want to ask you what is your experience with Riot Control and Children of Korlis?

War Report seems like a decent card too, like a pseudo-Congregate, but I am not sure about the rules regarding its interaction with Treasure tokens. Does it count creatures and artifacts the moment it is being cast or does opponent's action have any influence on counting the total number of artifacts on the table, for example - what if an opponent sacrifices those Treasure tokens in response?

I see your deck has an offensive edge with cards like Hatred, Unspeakable Symbol and Blackblade Reforged, have you thought about or tried out Cradle of Vitality?

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