Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

shermanido37 wrote:
8 months ago
However, I have a feeling that the second game went that way mostly because of Arcum's choice in removal. If they had something like Imprisoned in the Moon or Memnarch, you would have been in much, much more trouble.
I am not sure what this is supposed to mean. Arcum can't get Imprisoned in the Moon and I am not sure where you are suggesting they would do this instead of something else?
I can accept Szat in this deck, because of his love of creating blockers and sacrificing things. But Nissa feels like it could have been any number of other cards. What did Nissa do there that other cards couldn't have done?
I mean Nissa could have been Utter End for much better results.
Maybe I could have gotten rid of the Forge slightly sooner? Which, I admit, is appealing. I would have been able to get rid of Forge on turn 5 without having to rely on other players. They did come through in this case and things worked out, but that won't always be the case.

However, the call out of Nissa specifically is odd. I mean, I had a lot of cards that I had early that could have been Utter End. Mythos of Nethroi for example. Or Fauna Shaman (which I still haven't gotten a lot of use from). Nissa's power comes from the inevitability she provides and the ability to reanimate things in the long game when needed. There are numerous things she allows for. She may not have been at her peak here, but I still think she offers a lot. And there are very few things that let me cheat things in from my hand.

I am open to the idea of discussing Nissa's role in the deck in general. But comparing her to a removal spell seems like comparing apples to oranges and doesn't really provide an argument for why she shouldn't be here.
Also, since you like Archon of Justice, do you have anything against Ashen Rider?
Mana cost. That has been my distaste for the card ever since I cut it. Cryogen has suggested it as well and I used to run it but being 8 mana has always been a hindrance as I sometimes need things to get down sooner. Now, with that being said, and with the comments above about Nissa, it might be reasonable to think about it again. Nissa allows me to cheat it in pretty easily. Not necessarily any earlier since I still need 8 lands, but she can allow for it without spending mana. Which just might push it over the edge.

Karmic Guide is a nice way to get it cheap too. But I am always afraid of it being too slow to make a difference. If someone has something going on turn 4 or 5 (Forge came out turn 5 here) I am waiting an eternity in game time to get my exile effect to go off.

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Post by shermanido37 » 8 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
Ruric Thar got rid of Forge with Chaos Warp so I destroyed Arcum with Mythos of Nethroi.
You are aware that Forge only protects artifacts, and since Arcum is not naturally an artifact you could have destroyed it anyway? Unless they had Mycosynth Lattice of course, but if they had all of Disc + Forge + Lattice there was not much left to be done.

This is after reviewing your report on the game again. I am still puzzled regarding how exactly Nissa represents inevitability. Sure, it let you cheat out Sun Titan, but what else did it do?

If MTGO commander is as much of a grindy, no-interaction durdlefest as you describe it, I guess it's best if I'm not there. Though I would love to blow them out of the water with Windgrace's Rampage of the Clans into Obliterate.

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Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

shermanido37 wrote:
8 months ago
WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
Ruric Thar got rid of Forge with Chaos Warp so I destroyed Arcum with Mythos of Nethroi.
You are aware that Forge only protects artifacts, and since Arcum is not naturally an artifact you could have destroyed it anyway? Unless they had Mycosynth Lattice of course, but if they had all of Disc + Forge + Lattice there was not much left to be done.
Right. The sequencing was about Forge being gone so I might as well get rid of Arcum now so it can't come back. I would have done so anyway, but it wasn't waiting for Forge to be removed so I could get rid of Arcum. I just chose to wait to see what else other people would had and this was my last chance to do so before their turn started.
This is after reviewing your report on the game again. I am still puzzled regarding how exactly Nissa represents inevitability. Sure, it let you cheat out Sun Titan, but what else did it do?
I guess I am confused. You seem to be trying to suggest cutting/replacing Nissa based entirely on this game? The literal first game I got to play her in this deck? If your idea is that "she didn't do enough *this game* and should be cut" then you are much more impulsive on cuts than I am. I am willing to give her more of a shot than one game based on the reasoning I said above even if she didn't do a lot this game (which I already think I conceded the point to).
If MTGO commander is as much of a grindy, no-interaction durdlefest as you describe it, I guess it's best if I'm not there. Though I would love to blow them out of the water with Windgrace's Rampage of the Clans into Obliterate.
@pokken has commented on the idea that MTGO does tend to be a little lower on interaction but, again, I really don't know that this is supposed to mean. Are you saying I don't run enough interaction? Or are you tying this to my desire to run Nissa because of what she can do in the long game and she somehow survives because there isn't enough interaction?

I will admit that it is pretty clear our philosophies are pretty close to being opposites. At the very least we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. Which is fine, but it does help explain why I don't think your suggestions are quite right for my build.

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Post by pokken » 8 months ago

shermanido37 wrote:
8 months ago
If MTGO commander is as much of a grindy, no-interaction durdlefest as you describe it,
I wouldn't call it a durdlefest exactly, it's more that it's a haymaker-fest where people try to win by throwing the biggest punch but don't do a lot of dodging or blocking ;)

Most decks on MTGO are somewhat solitaire-y, like they tend to run the bare minimum of interaction and then pack it in if it isn't enough.

People tend to make realllly weird decisions too as evidenced if you read some of these reports.
shermanido37 wrote:
8 months ago
Obliterate
People on MTGO *hate* MLD with a passion. I got multiple nastygrams when I used Fall of the Thran in Yorion, Sky Nomad.

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Post by shermanido37 » 8 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
You seem to be trying to suggest cutting/replacing Nissa based entirely on this game? The literal first game I got to play her in this deck? If your idea is that "she didn't do enough *this game* and should be cut" then you are much more impulsive on cuts than I am.
That may very well be the case!! I tend to switch slots in EDH decks multiple times in my free time, even with no games to test the changes. So I am quite quick on the trigger.
However, I have a bit of a particular distaste towards planeswalkers in EDH, since they are so difficult to defend and thus difficult to make pay off. My meta has a lot of creature action, and idle planeswalkers would surely be crushed by fliers and tramplers and the like. I do play some in my Windgrace mass destruction deck, and also in my purposely powered down decks, but even then very sparingly.
With that in mind, it's clear that the best case scenario for them is when they are left unchecked, and I fully expect any planeswalkers I play in that scenario to be able to decidedly switch the game in my favor, if not outright win me the game. And I didn't see Nissa do that for you, while Szat actually seemed to make a sizable difference. So that's my way of looking at it, but I guess I could be wrong.
WizardMN wrote:
8 months ago
If MTGO commander is as much of a grindy, no-interaction durdlefest as you describe it, I guess it's best if I'm not there. Though I would love to blow them out of the water with Windgrace's Rampage of the Clans into Obliterate.
@pokken has commented on the idea that MTGO does tend to be a little lower on interaction but, again, I really don't know that this is supposed to mean. Are you saying I don't run enough interaction? Or are you tying this to my desire to run Nissa because of what she can do in the long game and she somehow survives because there isn't enough interaction?
That was more of a general statement regarding my observation of how the game went. There are any number of reasons as to how that could have went differently, mostly some of the players having questionable judgment calls. But yeah, most times I encounter a table of people playing Magic, I am astounded by how little interaction they pack, far far worse than this deck. At times it's like they don't even consider other players to be a part of the game!

When you said, "I drew into Bane of Progress" then "I drew into Archon of Justice", with nothing else going on, it did kind of seem to me like you were twiddling your thumbs waiting for a topdeck, which - to me - is one of the most unfun things about MtG, or any card game for that matter.
However, I went to compare our decks, assuming I'd have more interaction, but in fact your deck beat me by 2 cards! And that was with me counting fogs, discard effects and a bit more as interaction. I think that what stands out to me the most is that removal is a critical effect to have and to loop if possible, so to me it seems obvious that my Karador was going to abuse creatures like Cataclysmic Gearhulk and Ravenous Chupacabra, while your deck has around half of its control in noncreature effects that are pretty difficult to loop.
One other noticable difference between our lists is the sheer amount of synergy and card advantage I try to pack, from Buried Alive to Vizier of the Menagerie to Beast Whisperer to Ranger of Eos and more. Seeing more cards usually means that I see more answers, which usually means I find the answer to a problem I may be having pretty quickly, even if it's only a partial answer like a fog, and it usually means I have ways of not totally relying on topdecks to seal my fate.

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Post by WizardMN » 8 months ago

I played another game with this deck yesterday and it went reasonably well. The game was against Tana, the Bloodsower & Ardenn, Intrepid Archaeologist partners, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, and Akroma, Vision of Ixidor & Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker partners.

I kept a decent hand and was able to draw into a few cards. Knight of the Reliquary and Magus of the Order were the big cards at the beginning. Knight allowed me to get Dryad Arbor which I sacrificed to Korvold's Call to the Grave. This allowed me to keep Knight and Magus of the Order on the field.

My plan was to get Bane of Progress since there were a few artifacts and enchantments around. I was planning on waiting but then Akroma cast Wrath of God so I just tutored up Bane in response to that putting everyone with a clean board state. I also sacrificed the 11/11 Bane to Momentous Fall so I could make sure I got lands and other cards to play since I only had removal in hand.

Akroma partners then cast Ishai and I just cast Yavimaya Dryad and Remorseful Cleric. The latter for blocking just in case. Tana got Tana back out and then Korvold cast Reign of the Pit which was super good in that situation. They ended up with a 13/13 Demon and got rid of the creeatures on everyone's boards except I still had Cleric.

Apparently this was too much for Tana though and they scooped it up. Akroma cast Ishai again and I just cast Wall of Blossoms and Necrotic Sliver. The latter was just there to kill the token if I needed to. Instead, they swung at Akroma partners with the big Demon. Then, on Akroma's turn, they cast Vona's Hunger and I blew up Akroma that they had just cast. I used the Sliver to do this just because I felt I could still hand the Demon and I wanted to keep the Cleric and I figured I was getting rid of 2 creatures either way so I might as well make sure Akroma was gone.

Also, they seemed to be going after Akroma with the Demon and I was fine with letting them keep it considering I had other removal in hand. On my next turn I cast Ulvenwald Hydra as another blocker and got Winding Canyons. This allowed me to attack Akroma to take the Monarch. Korvold then cast Korvold and attacked me with the Demon so I blocked with the Hydra. This killed the Hydra so next turn I just cast Karmic Guide to get it back and give me another blocker. Which was good because Korvold destroyed the Hydra.

So, instead of going after me since I had Guide to block with, they just killed Akroma partners so now it was down to a 1v1 game. I felt like I had the upper hand but Korvold was drawing them quite a few cards. I basically just looped Karmic Guide with Karador for a few turns as I tried to figure out when the best time to strike was. I did have Pernicious Deed in hand but their board was never scary enough to want to do anything with it. So, I just blocked a few times and they even swung with Korvold trying to dig for cards to deal with my board. Which did lose them Korvold that turn.

Scavenging Ooze came into play around this time as well since it prevented a few of their reanimation/regrowth effects from doing anything. All the while, my board consisted of Ulvenwald Hydra and a bunch of small creatures but Korvold mostly only had Korvold as a threat.

Eventually though, they got Kogla, the Titan Ape to get rid of Karador which slowed down my loops. I never bothered casting Karador again either since I was in a good spot as it was. They also got It That Betrays which I exiled pretty quickly by using Recruiter of the Guard to get Eternal Witness to get back Dire Tactics,

Next turn they cast Pathrazer of Ulamog and Conduit of Ruin. And then they attacked with Kogla which was basically exactly what I needed them to do since I couldn't deal with all 3 of their big creatures and still kill them. I could have killed them all but they would have survived since Swords to Plowshares was a removal option.

This allowed me to flash in Cavalier of Dawn on their turn to destroy Pathrazer and then I could use Yawgmoth, Thran Physician to kill the Conduit. On my turn, I could cast Pernicious Deed and crack it for X=5 so only my Hydra and their Ape (which is now tapped) would survive. Since the Hydra was big enough, this would let me just kill them that turn.

Alas, they scooped after Cavalier destroyed Pathrazer so I never got to play out the rest of the plan for the turn but I at least had an end game in mind.

I think Tana scooping was a bit premature and it might have affected the outcome since they could have had a chance to get back into it. But that is hard to evaluate. The looping with Guide and Hydra was pretty big this game and I always had Deed and False Prophet in hand to deal with a board state if it truly got out of control unexpectedly.

If I really wanted to, I could have Entombed for Eerie Ultimatum, sacrificed my board, cast Karador, get back E Witness to get the Ultimatum, and then just flood the board with everything again. I obviously never needed to do that but there were quite a few lines I could go with at that stage of the game depending on how much Korvold actually did for them.

All in all, this went pretty well. As usual, the early game was more about smaller creatures though Magus had a pretty nice effect to help slow people down. I don't know how much I still like Knight of the Reliquary though. In this game she was able to get me Dryad Arbor for sac fodder, but beyond that, I don't know that I care a lot about getting specific lands with her.

She is good at what she does but she is slow due to summoning sickness and I never bothered activating her again after getting Dryad Arbor. She is certainly good since I have important lands to get but I can see a future where Knight ends up being cut for something if I really needed to. It isn't like she is on the list of "need to cut right now" as I don't have any cards like that, but it is something I will be thinking on if cuts need to happen in the future.

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Post by WizardMN » 6 months ago

Now with Strixhaven and Commander 21 being fully revealed, here are the cards I want to talk about for this deck. As I have been doing lately, this includes both sets together:

Black Cards

Callous Bloodmage - A cross between Wall of Blossoms/Omens and Agent of Erebos (honestly, there is very little chance the token mode is chosen) which means it offers up a fair bit of flexibility without a huge drawback. I might try to swap one of the Walls for this at least. Or, I could decide to re-evaluate some more recent changes, like Drana, and just throwing this in instead. I do like that it can still be gotten by Sun Titan.

Plumb the Forbidden - I really like this card actually. I don't think it quite works for this deck though. As a number of game summaries reinforce, this deck is not one that tends to flood the board with creatures so there won't be a lot that just be sacrificed for value. And things like Yawgmoth already do this better.

Stinging Study - This, on the other hand, seems really good. Draw 8, lose 8 life, for 5 mana is a great rate. And being an Instant is important. I think I have to at least try this card out here.

Multicolor Cards

Fracture - I don't really know what to think about this card. 2 mana to remove 3 card types is good. But I tend to lean on creature based removal for artifacts and enchantments as it is and planeswalkers can be dealt with by my creatures attacking them or things like Beast Within. With that being said, it might be worth swapping Krosan Grip for this. Sure, I lose Split Second, but it costs less and hits Walkers.

Mortality Spear - This seems like a decent card but this deck doesn't have a ton of incidental life gain. That is, I can generally gain life by sacrificing creatures to my lands as I need to, but in order for this to be cheaper I effectively need to sac a creature at the same time which isn't always what I want to be doing. So, really, the discussion probably comes down to this or Beast Within. And I think I like the spending the mana over giving them a creature. I might have to think on that.

Another thing is that if I do choose to go with the Spear, it seems like I really should just be going with Windgrace's Judgment. Another mana more, but hits 2 more things.

Rushed Rebirth - The main takeaway for this is that I don't have to target my own creature. So, if I am getting behind or something else is happening (most likely in response to a wrath) I could target something controlled by someone else to be able to cheat out something big. I like the idea of it; I am just not sure if it is consistent enough to do much. I might try it anyway.

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Post by WizardMN » 6 months ago

With the recent review, I have decided on trying the following changes:
4/12/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

The additions were mentioned above so there isn't much need to re-hash those reasons. As for the Cuts:

Beast Within and K Grip were mentioned above as straight swaps for Fracture and Judgment. 5 mana for Judgment can be problematic but if I am in a bad spot where I really need to destroy something *and* I don't have 5 mana, I am probably not winning anyway. I think these are reasonable swaps.

Tevesh Szat and Study are just straight swaps. Study draws me far more cards and I don't need to spend other resources to do it or to protect a Walker.

I was going to cut a Wall for Bloodmage but I decided to just go with lowering the curve and cutting Drana. The deck already does enough with reanimation that I don't need a "random" effect to supplement what I already have.

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Post by shermanido37 » 6 months ago

Study seems fantastic, but I'm somewhat afraid about the lifeloss. I know for sure that in my decks it already hurts, and there aren't much cards that recover that amount for me. I recommend careful execution.
Overall I agree with the cuts, and the adds seem decent, though I think you will probably dislike Fracture. I don't see the card being very beneficial.

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Post by WizardMN » 6 months ago

The lifeloss is certainly a concern and there have been games when I got low on life as it is. I might just have to be more aggressive with getting, and keeping, Diamond Valley on the battlefield to help mitigate that.

There is very little difference between that and K Grip so if Fracture is bad, Grip is bad in basically all the same, relevant, situations. Split Second is nice but 1 mana cheaper and being able to hit Walkers is nicer. I am open to Fracture being cut later but if it really doesn't work then it just highlights that I shouldn't have had Grip in the deck either.

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Post by WizardMN » 5 months ago

I played this deck in person for the first time in a while. It was against Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Omnath, Locus of Rage, and Damia, Sage of Stone.

I didn't start off too bad but Jarad started off skipping their land drop to discard Titanoth Rex and then they Reanimated it the next turn. They just swung randomly at people but a turn two 11/11 is pretty scary. I did get Archon of Justice on the field along with Phyrexian Tower so I could deal with it, but Damia killed it when they attacked them.

So, I ended up using Archon to remove a Growing Rites of Itlimoc // Itlimoc, Cradle of the Sun (that was transformed) on Omnath's side and I did this using Momentous Fall to try to dig for False Prophet. I really needed the exile effect since Omnath's board was getting out of control. I didn't get it but I did have Magus of the Order to get me Spike Weaver to keep me alive.

Next turn I ended up trying to kill Omnath's Nyxbloom Ancient (which had already given them 10 Hydras off Hydra Broodmaster) and I didn't even think about the fact that it was an Elemental so they just destroyed Spike Weaver. This ended the game for all of us since Spike Weaver was the only thing keeping us going.

The only thing that really stood out to me this game was that Magus of the Order basically can only get Spike Weaver and Bane of Progress as an answer. False Prophet is white, and my board wipes are noncreatures. I don't think there is a way around this, and Spike Weaver and Bane are still really good in the right situations, but I just happened to notice that Magus was not all that useful in the game above. I am not quite to the point of cutting it but this might not quite be the deck for her.

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Post by pokken » 5 months ago

WizardMN wrote:
5 months ago
Next turn I ended up trying to kill Omnath's Nyxbloom Ancient (which had already given them 10 Hydras off Hydra Broodmaster) and I didn't even think about the fact that it was an Elemental so they just destroyed Spike Weaver. This ended the game for all of us since Spike Weaver was the only thing keeping us going.
My RUG landfall deck nails people with that side effect constantly, it's hilarious :) One time I had done the Omnath, Locus of Rage + Risen Reef pseudo-combo to flood the board and had to pass the turn cos someone removed Wanderer, then the guy windmill slams Damnation off the top and I said "ok you take 27 and you take 12, gg:P"

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Post by WizardMN » 5 months ago

That is one thing that is easier for me to recognize. Omnath with any sort of board makes me double check all the math when everything dies because I know they have some Elementals even if I don't know which ones are elementals. So, slamming a Damnation is definitely an aggressive move there :)

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Post by WizardMN » 4 months ago

Here are my thoughts on the cards from Modern Horizons 2:

White Cards

Solitude - More creature based removal is right up my alley for this deck. I think I easily find a spot for it here as being able to re-use it with Karador is really good. And I can still Evoke it if I want/need to (though Flash ends up being irrelevant when Karador is involved).

Black Cards

Clattering Augur - I don't think this is an absolutely stellar card or anything, but I do think it ends up being better than my 2 Walls. I can't block with it which is a pretty big deal but I can more easily recur it and I can do so at instant timing to then set myself up for casting it again next turn. Of course, not being able to block with it also means it might be a bit harder to get it to die but I think swapping it for a wall (probably Wall of Omens) is the way to go.

Damn - I think this ends up being a better Damnation in this deck. Sure, it takes white mana for the overload, but it also has the function of just picking off a single creature if needed. I am pretty sure that 99% of the time, it is just Wrath of God but that 1% I think is worth making the swap since it is otherwise the came as WoG/Damnation.

Dauthi Voidwalker - This ends up being a hatebear, similar to Scavenging Ooze or Collector Ouphe. The sacrifice ability can offer some interesting lines and, importantly, it can allow me to cast any exiled cards with Void counters on them instead of just ones that Voidwalker exiled. Which means I can exile things, sac it to cast something big, replay it with Karador and then sac it again next turn to cast something else without having to wait for new cards to be exiled. I think I try this out somewhere to see what it can do. Not being able to block is a pretty significant drawback and I doubt I attack it with it much since I would want to leave it up to activate it on any turn in case some Instant is exiled later on.

Green Cards

Endurance - Instant timing grave hate is pretty good. I currently have Crop Rotation and Bojuka Bog to do that so bundling it all on one card seems solid. And being able to re-use it later, especially if I needed to Evoke it, can be useful. I will try to find a spot for this in the deck and might try it over Scavenging Ooze potentially.

Timeless Witness - A slightly more expensive Eternal Witness isn't ideal but that can (sort of) return itself to the battlefield can be useful. I think that the Eternalize cost is just too high though to be good enough to want this over E Wit, Skullwinder, or even Greenwarden of Murasa.

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Post by shermanido37 » 4 months ago

Dauthi Voidwalker feels like a top notch creature for Karador. It's a hatebear plus it sacs itself to become a threat, so you can play it again via the commander while the first threat from it is still alive.
To me it feels like an immensely strong card, with the only drawback being that if our opponents clone it we're in deep deep doodoo.

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Post by WizardMN » 3 months ago

Nothing in Adventures of the Forgotten Realms really stood out to me as an include for this deck so it looks like I won't have to worry about trying to find space for new cards.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 1 month ago

WizardMN wrote:
3 months ago
Nothing in Adventures of the Forgotten Realms really stood out to me as an include for this deck so it looks like I won't have to worry about trying to find space for new cards.
Do you have an updated decklist after MH2?

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Post by WizardMN » 1 month ago

Yeah, it probably is a good idea to get that updated. I will go through all my threads and post up to date decklists some time in the next couple days. Thanks for keeping me on my toes :)

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 1 month ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 month ago
Yeah, it probably is a good idea to get that updated. I will go through all my threads and post up to date decklists some time in the next couple days. Thanks for keeping me on my toes :)
I look forward to it :) I'm trying to build Karador in a controlly / grindy / not-super-combo-heavy way and your write-up seems closest to what I'm going for. Just trying to figure out how to be adaptable, consistent, and find my key wincons.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 month ago

In the interest of getting my list update, I wanted to make the following changes:
9/4/2021
Approximate Total Cost:

To start with, I decided against Endurance for now based mostly on the cost but also because it is hard to justify even a free grave hate card. I think I have been going lower on those in general anyway (see my Varina thread) so leaving it out of here for now is probably fine. This is likely meta dependent though.

Nissa and Knight have been good but I don't have a lot of room for cuts. I really do like Nissa but the idea of Knight might not be right anymore. Or, to be more specific, I think the deck turned a corner at some point where simple land tutoring isn't right for the deck and it has gotten passed by. I still have Crop Rotation because I like what it can do with Bog (I may not think I need a ton of grave hate, but this interaction is pretty nice) and it is not telegraphed like Knight would be. Perhaps this should be the other way around so I am open to the idea that this mindset might be somewhat fallacious.

Damn is a swap for Damnation and Augur is a Swap for Wall. Solitude gives me a way to tap out but still potentially not just straight up die and Dauthi Voidwalker ends up being grave hate with a pretty significant upside.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 1 month ago

Thanks for the update! Can I ask why you swapped Wall of Omens for Clattering Augur? With Karador the return to hand isn't as important, he can't block, and you lose a life. With it being the same CMC I don't see why you would've swapped them. At first I said "oh good move" thinking you were going to have a Skullclamp, but that ended up not being the case. (btw, you have 11 targets for skullclamp if you wanted to consider that route). Last question I have for you is why constant mists over spore frog? Spore Frog is a champ in reanimating decks. Not only does its presence just deter big attacks, but you can easily get it back without having to sac a land AND you don't have to leave mana up for it when its out.

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 1 month ago

The Wall is good and the life loss is basically irrelevant. So, the main question is would I rather have a blocker or have a creature I can get back to draw another card later on. Sure, it is 6 mana (4 to get it back and 2 to recast it) but giving me an option for another card later on isn't bad especially since I can hold up that 4 mana if I need it.

I think you are likely right and the Wall is the better option but I wanted to try the card and the straightforward swap was a Wall.

As for Clamp, it just isn't something I really felt I needed. And I will admit that there is still a part of me that wants to leave this list with 0 Artifacts.

I don't think Spore Frog is good enough. I have Spike Weave which goes all 3 turns and then Karador gets it back to go again. Mists is the same way. For a deck that doesn't flood the board and is trying to play a more control oriented strategy, being able to Fog all 3 turns instead of just 1 becomes exceptionally important. Spore Frog just fogs one person and then I am completely open to the other 2. Especially when they know I am getting the Frog back next turn.

Also, on your point about deterring big attacks: that is the exact opposite of what should happen. A Frog out should *encourage* big attacks because then it is used. If it is deterring people, then they don't understand how the Frog works.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 1 month ago

You make good points. I'm sure its partially meta / playgroup dependent, but I've seen spore frog do work. Your list (and subsequent posts) is definitely offering some insight on how I want to re-build my own deck. Before it was just all the best tutors and combo pieces. It was boring and one dimensional. I've struggled to figure out how to make it grindy and control-based. You're very close to what I am looking for. Thanks.

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Post by shermanido37 » 1 month ago

I will say that I'm a huge fan of the Spog. I recognize that it can't fog multiple combat steps, but personally that hasn't been a big difference to me.
My deck leverages the fact that it doesn't care much about its board to abuse multiple creatures that wipe it, like Night Incarnate, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, and now False Prophet. If you know of more options, I'd be glad to hear them. Either way, that's what my deck uses when it's threatened from multiple sides, and it's usually very effective since it's pretty easy to reclaim lost boards with Karador.

I also predict that Dauthi Voidwalker won't be stellar when played late, but I'm still pretty certain that the card is incredibly strong. I love the fact that you can replay it, then use its ability to play things that were previously exiled. The options from this card are incredible!

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Post by yeti1069 » 1 month ago

shermanido37 wrote:
1 month ago
I will say that I'm a huge fan of the Spog. I recognize that it can't fog multiple combat steps, but personally that hasn't been a big difference to me.
My deck leverages the fact that it doesn't care much about its board to abuse multiple creatures that wipe it, like Night Incarnate, Cataclysmic Gearhulk, and now False Prophet. If you know of more options, I'd be glad to hear them. Either way, that's what my deck uses when it's threatened from multiple sides, and it's usually very effective since it's pretty easy to reclaim lost boards with Karador.

I also predict that Dauthi Voidwalker won't be stellar when played late, but I'm still pretty certain that the card is incredibly strong. I love the fact that you can replay it, then use its ability to play things that were previously exiled. The options from this card are incredible!
Massacre Girl is a solid one that I've used in this role.

I'll say when I've played a graveyard-focused deck and see Dauthi drop across from me my whole gameplay changes to "how can I get rid of that thing?!"

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