Whelp, tried to get another game in and the Gyruda, Doom of Depths player started with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, and Lotus Petal whch they cracked for black to cast Vampiric Tutor to get....Mana Crypt. And they didn't have another land in hand. I had no idea what they planned on doing but seemed like either a bad keep/tutor option, or they had a monster hand. So I just cast Collector Ouphe because. honestly, no matter the reason, I felt like that was the right play. They scooped which then caused another player to scoop....
I did join another game and this one went well. I did have a potential misplay due to not reading a card right (my own ironically) and because I didn't want to do all the math. This game was against Killian, Ink Duelist, Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge and The Ur-Dragon.
I started off with a few lands and a Clattering Augur. I ended up casting the Augur and then didn't do a lot. I was able to use the Augur to draw cards off of Esika's Edric, Spymaster of Trest so that was nice. I didn't get a ton of ramp at first but I did hit land drops so that was enough.
Esika did start going off and with things like Yarok, the Desecrated and Panharmonicon. I just kept putting out small things to block if needed but didn't do a lot for the board. Ur-Dragon used Ruinous Ultimatum to blow the board which was good and then I end up casting Dauthi Voidwalker into a Toxic Deluge to get rid of Ur-Dragon's board and to give me something to do later. A turn or two later I had Voidwalker back and cracked it to cast their Lathliss, Dragon Queen into my Kokusho, the Evening Star which players then had to answer.
Esika and Killian started building up their boards again and Kynaios gave Killian 20 tokens off of a Hunted Phantasm and Volo, Guide to Monsters with Panharmonicon on the field and they killed the Ur-Dragon player with them. I ended up having to Vampiric Tutor for Vanquish the Horde and then cast Underrealm Lich and passed.
Next turn I cast Bane of Progress to get rid of Esika, God of the Tree // The Prismatic Bridge but then they cast Rise of the Dark Realms. Here is where I may have made a mistake. I ended up just getting to Eternal Witness to get Vanquish back and casting it. I had thought Voidwalker would still allow everything they control to die but since it cares about owner, everything they had was exiled instead. Now, this mattered because Killian had a Dreadhound. They had 10 new tokens thanks to Hunted Phantasm and Yarok so they started sacrificing some to drain us. My concern was around whether I would die if everything died as I was at 49. My math now shows I would have been drained for 41 total if I killed Voidwalker first. So, I would have lived, Esika would have died, and I would have had a bunch of cards in my yard instead of them being exiled. And it wasn't quite as risky as I thought it was though being at 8 from 49 wouldn't have been ideal. I don't know what ultimately was better but I do know I made the choice I made based partly off of a misreading on Voidwalker and thinking it would still drain for the things Esika controlled.
In the end, Esika went to 2 but then scooped since they had to run. They didn't have the greatest board presence after emptying their hand next turn anyway so I don't think they were in the greatest position. From here, Killian and I just duked it out and they had an issue with running out of cards as well. I was able to keep my hand full and almost drew too many cards (I ended the game with 8 cards in my library). But I was able to use Luminous Broodmoth to give things flying and all my removal to get rid of blockers to just win with combat. And I got everything back using Eerie Ultimatum which was nice (and would have been nicer if I didn't let things get exiled to Voidwalker).
In the end, Augur wasn't doing as much as I wanted since I didn't bring it back to my hand so this might be something to cut. Phyrexian Reclamation did nothing this game. It didn't do much in the last game I had it either. I am not at the point of cutting it but I am wondering if Lurrus, E Wit, Skullwinder, and Karador himself are enough to handle the recursion aspect. Grist also wasn't as good as I would have liked. I used him to destroy one creature, the insects didn't do much, and the mill was uinderwhelming in terms of getting anything relevant. I think this is another where this could be an easy cut if I find other cards to add. Also, I still have the Oakhame Adversary in here and need to cut it. I never did see pMindblade Render so I can't comment on it yet.
Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control
I have found the political ramifications of telegraphing your sweeper to be not the best; it's why I mostly stopped running stuff like Oblivion Stone unless I was intending to loop it. With Deed, I might play it in a Hall of Heliod's Generosity deck I guess, but I wouldn't play it as a random goodstuff sweeper.
To cast it and activate it in the same turn is just prohibitively expensive and often will get hosed by not having quite enough mana, and these days the chances of you needing to activate it for like 6 to get rid of a Warstorm Surge or something is just too much. It failed me a lot of times where I was put into positions I had to run it out without enough mana to crack it and hope it made it around the table too.
I guess if I had to pick one thing it's really the mana cost. The regularity with which I run into huge CMC stuff these days is high enough that I don't want to spend 12 mana to blow up The Ur-Dragon ever.
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shermanido37
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I'm feeling like you might want Timeless Witness. The card screams casual EDH nonsense.
I was also a tad impressed by Liesa, Forgotten Archangel and the showing she had in your game.
Dauthi Voidwalker is a card that will absolutely wreck your day for your opponents, especially with Lurrus of the Dream-Den.
In case you're feeling like you want bombs, I'm getting some serious bomb vibes from the upcoming Crimson Vow set. I'm expecting WB to be getting some love.
I was also a tad impressed by Liesa, Forgotten Archangel and the showing she had in your game.
Dauthi Voidwalker is a card that will absolutely wreck your day for your opponents, especially with Lurrus of the Dream-Den.
In case you're feeling like you want bombs, I'm getting some serious bomb vibes from the upcoming Crimson Vow set. I'm expecting WB to be getting some love.
I might switch over to Timeless Witness as a test. I do like Skullwinder being 3 mana but I did have a situation where I wanted to use it with Eerie Ultimatum (sacrificing it first) but chose not to because I only had one opponent and their yard was full of stuff. In general, it hasn't been too hard to work around that "restriction" and really, I probably didn't need the effect anyway in that situation. But it still would have been nice to use it without being caught out. I might just slot it in for now over the Oakhame Adversary since, as mentioned, it doesn't seem to work right online anyway.
Voidwalker has been good so far and even the play of casting it and then casting Toxic Deluge to make sure Kaalia and a couple Dragons were exiled was nice. It did work against me in the other game but I could have worked around that but didn't. And yeah, the interaction with Lurrus is pretty significant.
I do think I would like a couple more bombs like Liesa. Specifically, not things that necessarily end the game but that have a high power level with relevant abilities. I too am hoping for some things in Vow and it would make sense for WB to get some new additions. I feel like adding in one or two more "Utility" bombs is what this deck wants.
Voidwalker has been good so far and even the play of casting it and then casting Toxic Deluge to make sure Kaalia and a couple Dragons were exiled was nice. It did work against me in the other game but I could have worked around that but didn't. And yeah, the interaction with Lurrus is pretty significant.
I do think I would like a couple more bombs like Liesa. Specifically, not things that necessarily end the game but that have a high power level with relevant abilities. I too am hoping for some things in Vow and it would make sense for WB to get some new additions. I feel like adding in one or two more "Utility" bombs is what this deck wants.
The demon of dank memes is a perfect bomb for this deck, like massacre wurm but with Animate Dead stapled to it 
I had it a long time ago, when it was first printed, and I just didn't like it. I think it ended up not doing enough at the time due to the inconsistency of having enough Energy at the right time. And the -2/-2 really only works well against token decks. It has other uses of course but there are not a ton of X/1 or X/2 creatures running around. At least, I never really see much of them. Perhaps I would have better luck this time around to get the energy needed to activate it more than once. At least, I am willing to try it to see what it does.
I feel like the tide has really turned toward smaller creatures in general but I'm willing to be wrongWizardMN wrote: ↑2 years agoI had it a long time ago, when it was first printed, and I just didn't like it. I think it ended up not doing enough at the time due to the inconsistency of having enough Energy at the right time. And the -2/-2 really only works well against token decks. It has other uses of course but there are not a ton of X/1 or X/2 creatures running around. At least, I never really see much of them. Perhaps I would have better luck this time around to get the energy needed to activate it more than once. At least, I am willing to try it to see what it does.
The other one I didn't put on my list is an an oldie but goodie - Angel of Serenity I am now 4-0 when it resolves in Breena lol. And with your ability to sac it you can use it to reset your own creatures if needed.
And there was that weird archon that lets you pick a player when it comes into play that seems like it's likely to be better than people think (especially with the ability to loop it). Guardian Archon. And of course Serra's Emissary. But it might be right to just wait and have a bomb slot ready whatever comes out, heh
I think I am willing to try Serra's Emissary here. I have it in Ephara, though I have not played the deck since its inclusion so I don't have a good sense for its effectiveness. Angel of Serenity is interesting. It is not one I have thought of mostly due to the mana cost (I don't want to go too far on increasing the curve) which I think would also be my issue with the Archon. I do like the "reset my own creatures" plan though. And Archon certainly looks like a good effect but 6 mana for something that "might" work is a tough sell.
I will keep these in mind and try out the Demon for now and see what Vow brings. I don't think the deck is in a bad spot by any means so wanting a bomb or two is more to help close out games a bit quicker more so than trying to make the deck "work" so the bar is pretty high for new cards.
I will keep these in mind and try out the Demon for now and see what Vow brings. I don't think the deck is in a bad spot by any means so wanting a bomb or two is more to help close out games a bit quicker more so than trying to make the deck "work" so the bar is pretty high for new cards.
I got another game in online. But first, here are the changes I am trying out:
Technically, Aura Shards was already cut for Oakhame Adversary but I never recorded it so I will just record it this way. Mindblade, Aura Shards, and Wayfinder were talked about above. Demon is being tested to see what it can do and Timeless Witness is another recursion piece. And Vanquish and Hour are just straight swaps.
Now, for the game:
I played against Vadrik, Astral Archmage, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, and Laelia, the Blade Reforged so I was already sort of behind because they were going fast. Ragavan and Vadrik also both had turn 1 Ragavans which didn't help. I started with 2 lands and Nature's Lore and drew a few lands but then got stuck on 5 for a little while. Luckily I drew into Dawntreader Elk which got me the sixth mana for Sun Titan to help give me some blockers and ramp a bit more.
For the most part though, I ceased being a threat pretty early. And, really, I wasn't much of a threat to begin with: I was just the one that couldn't block so Ragavans could trigger. Though, Laelia did take a shot at me for 6. Once the others started getting established boards, players started focusing on the actual threats.
Vadrik killed my Sun Titan so next turn I cast Timeless Witness to get it back but didn't cast it right away. I did have Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker which I used to kill their Hammer of Nazahn equipping Vadrik and then I followed up with Assassin's Trophy on Vadrik which they countered. So I just cast Mythos of Nethroi to kill Vadrik which also meant their Keranos, God of Storms that was attacking me was no longer a creature.
Unfortunately, two opponents had to get going at different points so it ended up being down to me and Vadrik. They were trying to steal more from me (they were a theft deck) and cast Bribery against me but only got Liesa, Forgotten Archangel. I probably shouldn't say "only" as she was a good pick. But I had Solitude in hand and exiled her when they attacked me and I blocked Ragavan. Next turn, I just cast Karador and recast Solitude to get rid of another creature and this is when they scooped it up as they were down to 2 cards in hand and I think Vadrik cost {6} or {8} more to cast.
In the end, things worked out fairly well even with the abysmally slow start. Sun Titan was a house this game and really let me go off and Eternal Witness made an appearance to get back Sun Titan when I needed it. But Solitude ended up being the clear star. Being able to exile and block which then killed it so I could cast it again with Karador was the play that led to the end of the game. And of course being able to loop it beyond that if needed was nice as well.
I don't really have any major complaints or concerns in this game. Again, ramp was light but looping Dawntreader Elk a couple times with Sun Titan was very helpful and really shows one of the major reasons for wanting my ramp on creatures. My spot removal came through pretty well as well towards the end which was nice to see.
10/21/2021
Approximate Total Cost:
Technically, Aura Shards was already cut for Oakhame Adversary but I never recorded it so I will just record it this way. Mindblade, Aura Shards, and Wayfinder were talked about above. Demon is being tested to see what it can do and Timeless Witness is another recursion piece. And Vanquish and Hour are just straight swaps.
Now, for the game:
Game Summary
For the most part though, I ceased being a threat pretty early. And, really, I wasn't much of a threat to begin with: I was just the one that couldn't block so Ragavans could trigger. Though, Laelia did take a shot at me for 6. Once the others started getting established boards, players started focusing on the actual threats.
Vadrik killed my Sun Titan so next turn I cast Timeless Witness to get it back but didn't cast it right away. I did have Outland Liberator // Frenzied Trapbreaker which I used to kill their Hammer of Nazahn equipping Vadrik and then I followed up with Assassin's Trophy on Vadrik which they countered. So I just cast Mythos of Nethroi to kill Vadrik which also meant their Keranos, God of Storms that was attacking me was no longer a creature.
Unfortunately, two opponents had to get going at different points so it ended up being down to me and Vadrik. They were trying to steal more from me (they were a theft deck) and cast Bribery against me but only got Liesa, Forgotten Archangel. I probably shouldn't say "only" as she was a good pick. But I had Solitude in hand and exiled her when they attacked me and I blocked Ragavan. Next turn, I just cast Karador and recast Solitude to get rid of another creature and this is when they scooped it up as they were down to 2 cards in hand and I think Vadrik cost {6} or {8} more to cast.
End Summary
In the end, things worked out fairly well even with the abysmally slow start. Sun Titan was a house this game and really let me go off and Eternal Witness made an appearance to get back Sun Titan when I needed it. But Solitude ended up being the clear star. Being able to exile and block which then killed it so I could cast it again with Karador was the play that led to the end of the game. And of course being able to loop it beyond that if needed was nice as well.
I don't really have any major complaints or concerns in this game. Again, ramp was light but looping Dawntreader Elk a couple times with Sun Titan was very helpful and really shows one of the major reasons for wanting my ramp on creatures. My spot removal came through pretty well as well towards the end which was nice to see.
Played a game online against Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Beledros Witherbloom, and Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. Sisay was, as usual, Shrine tribal.
I started off with Sakura-Tribe Elder into Phyrexian Reclamation and Dawntreader Elk. Sisay got Zur, the Enchanter down and Beledros got their commander and Liliana, Dreadhorde Heneral. Zur managed to attack but apparently had no removal for anything Beledros was doing since they just got a Shrine.
Beledros just kept going off and there wasn't a lot we could do to stop them. I never really got much removal beyond Archon of Justice which worked for a little bit but neither of the other players were all that interested in engaging with Beledros.
Eventually, Beledros swung at Sisay with Strixhaven Stadium on their field so they killed them. Azusa on their next turn dropped a Craterhoof Behemoth to kill Beledros so it was just us two now.
I had cast Fiend Artisan earlier so I activated that (tapping out) to get to Demon of Dark Schemes which killed their tokens. I could have cast Damn but I thought this would be enough and I could just cast Damn next turn if needed.
However, they ended up casting Avenger of Zendikar to get a bunch of tokens, Azusa to drop down more lands, and then Temur Sabertooth to pick up Craterhoof and recast it. They could do all of this because of Gaea's Cradle. This was enough to kill me even with attacking with just two creatures since their board had 20+ creatures. Had I had one mana open I would have had Path to Exile that I could have cast. But I went shields down with Fiend Artisan/Demon.
Of note, I also had Ashen Rider in hand but I never got to 8 mana to cast it. So, it just sat there, being sad
Otherwise, the deck actually didn't perform that poorly. I don't think there was a lot to comment on here, beyond the Ashen Rider.
Game Summary
Beledros just kept going off and there wasn't a lot we could do to stop them. I never really got much removal beyond Archon of Justice which worked for a little bit but neither of the other players were all that interested in engaging with Beledros.
Eventually, Beledros swung at Sisay with Strixhaven Stadium on their field so they killed them. Azusa on their next turn dropped a Craterhoof Behemoth to kill Beledros so it was just us two now.
I had cast Fiend Artisan earlier so I activated that (tapping out) to get to Demon of Dark Schemes which killed their tokens. I could have cast Damn but I thought this would be enough and I could just cast Damn next turn if needed.
However, they ended up casting Avenger of Zendikar to get a bunch of tokens, Azusa to drop down more lands, and then Temur Sabertooth to pick up Craterhoof and recast it. They could do all of this because of Gaea's Cradle. This was enough to kill me even with attacking with just two creatures since their board had 20+ creatures. Had I had one mana open I would have had Path to Exile that I could have cast. But I went shields down with Fiend Artisan/Demon.
End of Summary
Of note, I also had Ashen Rider in hand but I never got to 8 mana to cast it. So, it just sat there, being sad
Otherwise, the deck actually didn't perform that poorly. I don't think there was a lot to comment on here, beyond the Ashen Rider.
Last edited by WizardMN 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
I did play another game after the one above but it isn't worth detailing too much. I started with Dauthi Voidwalker and Scavenging Ooze to deal with graveyards which ended up making The Gitrog Monster player scoop (I think). I had built up a decent board with Underrealm Lich but then Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge cast Worst Fears targeting me and that was all she wrote. A pretty disappointing end to a game that looked like it would be pretty good with some back and forth between the 3 of us.
Again, not a whole lot to comment on for that game either.
Again, not a whole lot to comment on for that game either.
It's my current biggest pet peeve in commander, spells that largely win on the stack with no opportunity to interact outside of counterspells
I will say that player removal is exacerbated online, where someone almost always has scooped and things drop down to 1v1 a lot. The grotesque overpoweredness of countermagic is getting really tiresome, and making me think about just playing blue most of the time And countermagic is another one of those things that's exaggerated online because it's extra good in 1v1, of course.
I got another game in and two people scooped early....One I can kind of understand (and the scoop might have helped me win) and one was a bit more puzzling. The game was against Miara, Thorn of the Glade & Numa, Joraga Chieftain partners, Syr Konrad, the Grim, and Sisay, Weatherlight Captain. Sisay, again, seemed to be Shrine tribal.
I started with 3 lands and 2 ramp pieces. I drew into a 3rd as well. I just ramped a little to begin with while Partners tried to get a few things down and Sisay just cast their general for the most part (with a couple enchantments). Konrad cast Plaguecrafter which got rid of Sisay which was nice and I discarded a card. A turn or so later, I cast Bane of Progress to get rid of the enchantments Sisay had and it got some residual artifacts and enchantments from the other two players.
No one else really did much from here. Konrad did cast a Necropotence and Skullclamp with [Bloodghast and Nether Shadow on the field but my Scavenging Ooze shut that down pretty quick. Partners ended up disconnecting/timing out/scooping after Necro hit the field so they were no longer a concern. During this time, I relentlessly went after Konrad since they couldn't block and I knew they could eventually get the upper hand with Necropotence keeping their hand full.
Sisay was in a tough spot as they were at 2 or 3 cards in hand and didn't seem to be drawing lands so they were stuck on 5 lands and didn't have blue mana to activate Sisay (if they had tried casting her again anyway). So, Konrad was the threat. I did get them down to 10 (though they contributed from activating Necro) and then they got in a Mindcrank. And I didn't quite see the "combo" with Mindcrank and Konrad at first where milling both of us would potentially keep triggering Konrad. I didn't expect Sisay to have a ton of creatures so it might not have made a huge difference but with both milling, it would be harder to eventually get them to "fizzle". This is when Sisay scooped anyway so it probably worked out which meant that Konrad needed to mill 22 creatures in a row from me which was unlikely. And they did hit enough lands as to stop the loop and I just attacked them for the win.
With the combo with Mindcrank and Konrad, I really should have sacrificed Bane of Progress and reanimated it with Karmic Guide that I had in hand for the longest time. That would have stopped their combo and gotten rid of Necro. That probably would have been the safer play but it all eventually worked out in the end.
I have been noticing that keeping my hand full is becoming more of a problem. It isn't totally unexpected as I had made some cuts that potentially would lead to that. I am not sure I need to change anything just yet, but it might be a cause for concern eventually. In this game specifically, the problem was that I never got to any spot removal so if Konrad had been able to do more, I would have been in a tough spot to stop it.
Game Summary
No one else really did much from here. Konrad did cast a Necropotence and Skullclamp with [Bloodghast and Nether Shadow on the field but my Scavenging Ooze shut that down pretty quick. Partners ended up disconnecting/timing out/scooping after Necro hit the field so they were no longer a concern. During this time, I relentlessly went after Konrad since they couldn't block and I knew they could eventually get the upper hand with Necropotence keeping their hand full.
Sisay was in a tough spot as they were at 2 or 3 cards in hand and didn't seem to be drawing lands so they were stuck on 5 lands and didn't have blue mana to activate Sisay (if they had tried casting her again anyway). So, Konrad was the threat. I did get them down to 10 (though they contributed from activating Necro) and then they got in a Mindcrank. And I didn't quite see the "combo" with Mindcrank and Konrad at first where milling both of us would potentially keep triggering Konrad. I didn't expect Sisay to have a ton of creatures so it might not have made a huge difference but with both milling, it would be harder to eventually get them to "fizzle". This is when Sisay scooped anyway so it probably worked out which meant that Konrad needed to mill 22 creatures in a row from me which was unlikely. And they did hit enough lands as to stop the loop and I just attacked them for the win.
End of Summary
With the combo with Mindcrank and Konrad, I really should have sacrificed Bane of Progress and reanimated it with Karmic Guide that I had in hand for the longest time. That would have stopped their combo and gotten rid of Necro. That probably would have been the safer play but it all eventually worked out in the end.
I have been noticing that keeping my hand full is becoming more of a problem. It isn't totally unexpected as I had made some cuts that potentially would lead to that. I am not sure I need to change anything just yet, but it might be a cause for concern eventually. In this game specifically, the problem was that I never got to any spot removal so if Konrad had been able to do more, I would have been in a tough spot to stop it.
It's interesting, your approach to Karador does lend itself to a little feast or famine where cards are concerned; lots of people play Wall of Omens effect heavy builds that don't struggle to keep cards, but the cards they have are pretty crappy.
You're in a situation where you have few incremental draw effects and rely more on (1) a small set of explosive card advantage spells, and (2) having high individual card quality. So getting that balance of explosive car draw right is I think the challenge? You don't probably want to pivot to a Wall of Omens (Elvish Visionary, Wall of Blossoms, etc -- 2 drop card draw guys) deck as I think that'd water down a lot of what you're doing.
So stuff like Rishkar's Expertise, Return of the Wildspeaker, Momentous Fall type effects, Greater Good, etc.
It's possible you could run a set of incremental things that let you reuse more things from the graveyard, but that seems somewhat risky to become overdependent on that -- things like Oversold Cemetery and such can be pretty good with your higher ratio of powerful fatties, but light countersynergy with Karador's mana cost too And requires more ways to fill the bin.
You can play stuff like The Great Henge and Beast Whisperer / Guardian Project but you're not really going to maximize those things.
One thing you could consider is adding a couple individually strong baneslayer card advantage sources, along the lines of Tireless Tracker or Grim Flayer to kinda line up with Underrealm Lich type effects? (That serve as some pressure with their bodies as well as incremental CA).
You're in a situation where you have few incremental draw effects and rely more on (1) a small set of explosive card advantage spells, and (2) having high individual card quality. So getting that balance of explosive car draw right is I think the challenge? You don't probably want to pivot to a Wall of Omens (Elvish Visionary, Wall of Blossoms, etc -- 2 drop card draw guys) deck as I think that'd water down a lot of what you're doing.
So stuff like Rishkar's Expertise, Return of the Wildspeaker, Momentous Fall type effects, Greater Good, etc.
It's possible you could run a set of incremental things that let you reuse more things from the graveyard, but that seems somewhat risky to become overdependent on that -- things like Oversold Cemetery and such can be pretty good with your higher ratio of powerful fatties, but light countersynergy with Karador's mana cost too
And requires more ways to fill the bin.You can play stuff like The Great Henge and Beast Whisperer / Guardian Project but you're not really going to maximize those things.
One thing you could consider is adding a couple individually strong baneslayer card advantage sources, along the lines of Tireless Tracker or Grim Flayer to kinda line up with Underrealm Lich type effects? (That serve as some pressure with their bodies as well as incremental CA).
I think you are right on the 2 drop draw guys. I have the two Walls but I have not come close to going all in. I even cut one of the options (Clattering Augur though I added Wall of Omens right back in) a little while back. I agree that this is not really an avenue I want to go too heavy on. I like having the two Walls as they do give a little bit that I can lean on Karador or Karmic Guide for in terms of draw. That is, it gives me at least something to do when I don't have anything explosive or I really need another card.
I think you might be onto something with the others though. I have Momentous Fall and cut greater good a while back but perhaps pivoting back to more of that might be warranted. I like Life's Legacy due to the mana cost. I will admit that part of that was because my creatures are often small enough that the discard 3 cards is a bit of a hindrance. I think I like Tireless Tracker so I could get behind adding something like these just to allow some incremental draw. I will have to think more on where I want the draw suite to land in this deck.
I think you might be onto something with the others though. I have Momentous Fall and cut greater good a while back but perhaps pivoting back to more of that might be warranted. I like Life's Legacy due to the mana cost. I will admit that part of that was because my creatures are often small enough that the discard 3 cards is a bit of a hindrance. I think I like Tireless Tracker so I could get behind adding something like these just to allow some incremental draw. I will have to think more on where I want the draw suite to land in this deck.
The bomb card draw spells I can think of -- and I somewhat agree about greater good, but I think you probably have enough power for it to be good?WizardMN wrote: ↑2 years agoI think you are right on the 2 drop draw guys. I have the two Walls but I have not come close to going all in. I even cut one of the options (Clattering Augur though I added Wall of Omens right back in) a little while back. I agree that this is not really an avenue I want to go too heavy on. I like having the two Walls as they do give a little bit that I can lean on Karador or Karmic Guide for in terms of draw. That is, it gives me at least something to do when I don't have anything explosive or I really need another card.
I think you might be onto something with the others though. I have Momentous Fall and cut greater good a while back but perhaps pivoting back to more of that might be warranted. I like Life's Legacy due to the mana cost. I will admit that part of that was because my creatures are often small enough that the discard 3 cards is a bit of a hindrance. I think I like Tireless Tracker so I could get behind adding something like these just to allow some incremental draw. I will have to think more on where I want the draw suite to land in this deck.
Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt is probably worth running too; it's been really good in Varina, Lich Queen.
I'm not 100% sure you have enough power to use all of those cards unfortunately, it's hard to say? Maybe better to find ways to use stuff like Plumb the Forbidden.
It's a really interesting deck design problem for sure
--
You might also be able to get critical mass of the card draw guys and some etb creature card draw effects (The Great Henge, Beast Whisperer, etc.), but making room for all that changes the deck quite a bit.
I have two main thoughts on Greater Good.
With Greater Good, I can see that I have 7 cards that have power greater than 3 (so I can actually refill my hand rather than just loot) which does not seem like a lot. Especially since 4 of those are ones that I would rather not sac if I can help it. I realize Greater Good helps file my yard as well, but with some of my move into more noncreature spells for board control, filling my yard isn't always helpful when I am trying to just find an answer.
Extending to things with a power of 3 or greater, I have 14. Not awful but somewhat on the low side. But it does double the number of creatures I have that can work with some of the draw spells that aren't GG. And extending to 2 power, I have 26 creatures. Which means that the things like Life's Legacy, or Return of the Wildspeaker, or Rishkar's expertise are, at worst, likely going to draw me two cards. The floor is not terrible (though not exactly great either) but the ceiling is quite high. I did used to have Grothama and it ended up being a really weird spot since I either needed to have a sac outlet (not too hard to do) or kill a bunch of creatures in order to be able to kill Grothama with the fight so I could draw.
Now, with that said, the other thing I want to mention on Greater Good is that it does fuel the yard. I have mentioned a couple of times that I don't do self-mill here and I don't really want to try adding it. GG Is the middle ground. It lets me draw and fills my yard so things like Karmic Guide, Eternal Witness, and Karador himself have things to do. I still think that the issue of having things with high enough power to make it work well enough means it still might not be something I want to add.
Also, as part of this, I realize Bane of Progress and Lifeblood Hydra aren't going to be their printed P/T. Neither will Spike Weaver but that is only 3 anyway so it doesn't change a ton with the numbers above.
I do like the idea of Plumb the Forbidden. Since I have enough stuff that wouldn't really get me a ton of cards via other methods, and it gives me a sac outlet for False Prophet when I need it, I think I do like this as an option. It is still limited but there aren't a ton of options in these colors to just draw cards. I mean, black has quite a few "draw 2" effects and Painful Truths isn't the worst, but I think the others mentioned end up being the better options. I definitely like Plumb and Return due to being Instants and Expertise is nice to be able to cast something for free.
I am certainly game for something like Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt but the cost on it seems a bit high? Maybe I am undervaluing it, but I think I would almost always want to cast if for X=3 at the very least so it will be 6+ mana. And I don't have much that I would often want to get back in those mana values. 3 has a few good options and 2 has a couple, but they seem few and far between. And as we start to move to X=5 or more it starts to become a bit more of question mark.
As for things like Beast Whisperer and The Great Henge, I am almost thinking something like Soul of the Harvest might be a good option. It isn't necessarily better than The Great Henge (other than being a creature) but it plays more into what the deck wants to do and strengthens some of the other cards. Or, perhaps, just slotting in Guardian Project
I think among the cards mentioned, I would like to try Plumb, Return, and Expertise.
With Greater Good, I can see that I have 7 cards that have power greater than 3 (so I can actually refill my hand rather than just loot) which does not seem like a lot. Especially since 4 of those are ones that I would rather not sac if I can help it. I realize Greater Good helps file my yard as well, but with some of my move into more noncreature spells for board control, filling my yard isn't always helpful when I am trying to just find an answer.
Extending to things with a power of 3 or greater, I have 14. Not awful but somewhat on the low side. But it does double the number of creatures I have that can work with some of the draw spells that aren't GG. And extending to 2 power, I have 26 creatures. Which means that the things like Life's Legacy, or Return of the Wildspeaker, or Rishkar's expertise are, at worst, likely going to draw me two cards. The floor is not terrible (though not exactly great either) but the ceiling is quite high. I did used to have Grothama and it ended up being a really weird spot since I either needed to have a sac outlet (not too hard to do) or kill a bunch of creatures in order to be able to kill Grothama with the fight so I could draw.
Now, with that said, the other thing I want to mention on Greater Good is that it does fuel the yard. I have mentioned a couple of times that I don't do self-mill here and I don't really want to try adding it. GG Is the middle ground. It lets me draw and fills my yard so things like Karmic Guide, Eternal Witness, and Karador himself have things to do. I still think that the issue of having things with high enough power to make it work well enough means it still might not be something I want to add.
Also, as part of this, I realize Bane of Progress and Lifeblood Hydra aren't going to be their printed P/T. Neither will Spike Weaver but that is only 3 anyway so it doesn't change a ton with the numbers above.
I do like the idea of Plumb the Forbidden. Since I have enough stuff that wouldn't really get me a ton of cards via other methods, and it gives me a sac outlet for False Prophet when I need it, I think I do like this as an option. It is still limited but there aren't a ton of options in these colors to just draw cards. I mean, black has quite a few "draw 2" effects and Painful Truths isn't the worst, but I think the others mentioned end up being the better options. I definitely like Plumb and Return due to being Instants and Expertise is nice to be able to cast something for free.
I am certainly game for something like Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt but the cost on it seems a bit high? Maybe I am undervaluing it, but I think I would almost always want to cast if for X=3 at the very least so it will be 6+ mana. And I don't have much that I would often want to get back in those mana values. 3 has a few good options and 2 has a couple, but they seem few and far between. And as we start to move to X=5 or more it starts to become a bit more of question mark.
As for things like Beast Whisperer and The Great Henge, I am almost thinking something like Soul of the Harvest might be a good option. It isn't necessarily better than The Great Henge (other than being a creature) but it plays more into what the deck wants to do and strengthens some of the other cards. Or, perhaps, just slotting in Guardian Project
I think among the cards mentioned, I would like to try Plumb, Return, and Expertise.
X=5 or 6 as a game winning bomb, that is also sometimes a land, is how I think about it in Varina anyway. But X=2 or 3 as a bad ramp spell isn't the worst.WizardMN wrote: ↑2 years agoI am certainly game for something like Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt but the cost on it seems a bit high? Maybe I am undervaluing it, but I think I would almost always want to cast if for X=3 at the very least so it will be 6+ mana. And I don't have much that I would often want to get back in those mana values. 3 has a few good options and 2 has a couple, but they seem few and far between. And as we start to move to X=5 or more it starts to become a bit more of question mark.
The key really is being both a land and a potentially game winning bomb. I'm currently on the hunt for another one so I can play it in Breena too and it feels like borderline automatic in any creature heavy black deck to me, as long as you can make .
I can certainly give it a try. I do think this ties back into the idea that I am not really filling my yard with a lot though. The last game I played (before I started getting milled with Mindcrank) I had 3 or 4 creatures in the yard. 2-3 ramp and Skullwinder. I am not entirely sure Greater Good is the right card for that since I do still want to keep cards in hand, but I don't think there is much else that can fill my hand and yard in one card.
Which might mean I really should go a little heavier on the bombs which work better with GG and Awakening anyway, and try to lessen some of the smaller "utility" creatures like the two Walls and Mindblade Render. I have thought about going down Collector Ouphe and Scavenging Ooze as well. The former because it is a bit feels bad (though I have won games because people can't remove it) and the latter because targeted yard removal isn't always the best. Although, again, with GG and some of the other potential draw spells, a creature that can make itself bigger can be pretty important.
And I think Grist, the Hunger Tide and even Farhaven Elf can be cuts. Especially if I am getting to a point where I can draw more, the Elf might not be as needed anymore.
Which might mean I really should go a little heavier on the bombs which work better with GG and Awakening anyway, and try to lessen some of the smaller "utility" creatures like the two Walls and Mindblade Render. I have thought about going down Collector Ouphe and Scavenging Ooze as well. The former because it is a bit feels bad (though I have won games because people can't remove it) and the latter because targeted yard removal isn't always the best. Although, again, with GG and some of the other potential draw spells, a creature that can make itself bigger can be pretty important.
And I think Grist, the Hunger Tide and even Farhaven Elf can be cuts. Especially if I am getting to a point where I can draw more, the Elf might not be as needed anymore.
Yeah it's definitely possible you don't fill your yard enough. That said you might want to consider adding a small package of additional stuff that does fill your yard incidentally?WizardMN wrote: ↑2 years agoI can certainly give it a try. I do think this ties back into the idea that I am not really filling my yard with a lot though. The last game I played (before I started getting milled with Mindcrank) I had 3 or 4 creatures in the yard. 2-3 ramp and Skullwinder. I am not entirely sure Greater Good is the right card for that since I do still want to keep cards in hand, but I don't think there is much else that can fill my hand and yard in one card.
Which might mean I really should go a little heavier on the bombs which work better with GG and Awakening anyway, and try to lessen some of the smaller "utility" creatures like the two Walls and Mindblade Render. I have thought about going down Collector Ouphe and Scavenging Ooze as well. The former because it is a bit feels bad (though I have won games because people can't remove it) and the latter because targeted yard removal isn't always the best. Although, again, with GG and some of the other potential draw spells, a creature that can make itself bigger can be pretty important.
And I think Grist, the Hunger Tide and even Farhaven Elf can be cuts. Especially if I am getting to a point where I can draw more, the Elf might not be as needed anymore.
It's really too bad there aren't more copies of Satyr Wayfinder tbh, as I think this deck would like about 4 of them
That is the main problem I have with those cards though: they just feel like too much "fluff". Maybe I am not giving them enough credit (and the fact that I cut Wayfinder and am really seeing this problem probably leans into that), but their impact seems so low.. I don't know. I might need to give that a bit more of a chance and check out a few others that do the same. I think I likely want to focus on ones that get me lands (or, at least, noncreatures) since I can get creatures back.
Doing a cursory search, these stand out to me:
Blex, Vexing Pest // Search for Blex - Higher on the mana cost, but can be a draw and/or mill depending on what I see
Cavalier of Thorns - Ties into the "bigger threats" argument as well
Discerning Taste - A bit of incidental life gain as well
Glacial Revelation - Might be alright if I switch to Snow-Basics but likely there are still too few hits to work well
Grim Flayer - You mentioned this above and my main concern is that it needs to deal combat damage. Plus it isn't a draw.
Grisly Salvage - Lets me see 5 and gets me a land. Also an instant which is nice.
Moonlight Bargain - Similar to Blex but Instant, higher mana cost, and lower life payment
Mulch Gets me all lands instead of just one
Old Stickfingers - Doesn't do much else beyond putting creatures in the yard which means Buried Alive is probably just better. Though, again, another big creature to work with other things
Professor Onyx - High mana cost, but decent abilities all around
Scout the Borders - Eh. I mean, it is sort of in the same vein as others, but nothing special.
See the Unwritten - This is sort of interesting in general. 6 mana is a lot but I could get 2 free creatures and I fill my yard with others. It probably doesn't hit enough and since I really want something that gets me noncreatures so I can pick the creatures up from the yard, it doesn't quite fit. But it looks interesting.
Winding Way - Similar to others mentioned but gets me all of one type. Might be good for later in the game when I really need creatures?
Wrenn and Seven - 5 mana but repeatable. Not awful
Looking through these, I think this really does show that the pickins are pretty slim for this type of effect. I do like Cavalier for a few reasons so there might be a way to fit that in here. Other than that, I don't see any that are absolute must haves.
Doing a cursory search, these stand out to me:
Blex, Vexing Pest // Search for Blex - Higher on the mana cost, but can be a draw and/or mill depending on what I see
Cavalier of Thorns - Ties into the "bigger threats" argument as well
Discerning Taste - A bit of incidental life gain as well
Glacial Revelation - Might be alright if I switch to Snow-Basics but likely there are still too few hits to work well
Grim Flayer - You mentioned this above and my main concern is that it needs to deal combat damage. Plus it isn't a draw.
Grisly Salvage - Lets me see 5 and gets me a land. Also an instant which is nice.
Moonlight Bargain - Similar to Blex but Instant, higher mana cost, and lower life payment
Mulch Gets me all lands instead of just one
Old Stickfingers - Doesn't do much else beyond putting creatures in the yard which means Buried Alive is probably just better. Though, again, another big creature to work with other things
Professor Onyx - High mana cost, but decent abilities all around
Scout the Borders - Eh. I mean, it is sort of in the same vein as others, but nothing special.
See the Unwritten - This is sort of interesting in general. 6 mana is a lot but I could get 2 free creatures and I fill my yard with others. It probably doesn't hit enough and since I really want something that gets me noncreatures so I can pick the creatures up from the yard, it doesn't quite fit. But it looks interesting.
Winding Way - Similar to others mentioned but gets me all of one type. Might be good for later in the game when I really need creatures?
Wrenn and Seven - 5 mana but repeatable. Not awful
Looking through these, I think this really does show that the pickins are pretty slim for this type of effect. I do like Cavalier for a few reasons so there might be a way to fit that in here. Other than that, I don't see any that are absolute must haves.
Now this is strange. A couple of days ago I decided I should start looking into building a Karador deck, and lo and behold this thread starts to pop up. Anyways I figured I should pop by and let you know there's a new Karador player joining the ranks.
As far as my impetus for the building him, my very first deck, and the first magic deck/cards I ever played with was a gifted Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck. Now, as I learned more about the game and format, I soon realized Meren has a reputation for degeneracy. To combat this, and because I dislike combo anyway, I build my deck as a midrangey pile rather than combo or serious stax.
The issue I had was that people still feared Meren, and I don't want to have to keep explaining that my deck is actually probably weaker than a lot of decks in the format every time I go somewhere. Which leads me to believe Karador is more along the lines of what I'm looking for. I just want to play creatures like Kokusho, the Evening Star, Underrealm Lich, and Spore Frog not Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion.
Additionally, this is going to be a budget deck, because all my decks are budget it seems like, because I'm cheap when it comes to MTG. (or at least I attempt to be)
So yeah, long story short, I'm trying to rebuild my first EDH deck with a new commander who will hopefully suit me better.
I loved Meren, but it felt like I always had to tiptoe with my card selection because I was afraid of making the deck way too strong for regular commander, and Meren made people panic even though the deck was full of 25 cent cards and grindy value pieces rather than stax or combo.
As far as my impetus for the building him, my very first deck, and the first magic deck/cards I ever played with was a gifted Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck. Now, as I learned more about the game and format, I soon realized Meren has a reputation for degeneracy. To combat this, and because I dislike combo anyway, I build my deck as a midrangey pile rather than combo or serious stax.
The issue I had was that people still feared Meren, and I don't want to have to keep explaining that my deck is actually probably weaker than a lot of decks in the format every time I go somewhere. Which leads me to believe Karador is more along the lines of what I'm looking for. I just want to play creatures like Kokusho, the Evening Star, Underrealm Lich, and Spore Frog not Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion.
Additionally, this is going to be a budget deck, because all my decks are budget it seems like, because I'm cheap when it comes to MTG. (or at least I attempt to be)
So yeah, long story short, I'm trying to rebuild my first EDH deck with a new commander who will hopefully suit me better.
I loved Meren, but it felt like I always had to tiptoe with my card selection because I was afraid of making the deck way too strong for regular commander, and Meren made people panic even though the deck was full of 25 cent cards and grindy value pieces rather than stax or combo.
I feel like I'd play life from the loam before any of that stuff. But I'll play loam in anything. Tranquil thicket is a pretty easy thing to fit.
Maybe you could run a small stoneforge package with skullclamp and umm, sword of hearth and home maybe? Not sure how synergistic any of that is tho.
Anyway no need to do major surgery on a deck that works, maybe just add plumb and rishkars or maybe return if the wild speaker? That seems aces In this.
Maybe you could run a small stoneforge package with skullclamp and umm, sword of hearth and home maybe? Not sure how synergistic any of that is tho.
Anyway no need to do major surgery on a deck that works, maybe just add plumb and rishkars or maybe return if the wild speaker? That seems aces In this.
Welcome! I think your approach to this deck and mine are quite similar. At least, the philosophy behind it. I too dislike combos (I took Mikaeus, the Unhallowed out of this deck partly due to his combo potential with Yawgmoth, Thran Physician).
I find most Meren builds end up being oppressive enough where people are often right to go after them. While I realized your deck wasn't necessarily that way, I can understand your opponents' takes on the general you were bringing to the table. It can suck (I have a similar problem with my Kykar, Wind's Fury deck). I am not sure I would agree that she is too strong for "regular" commander in most cases, but that really depends on your playgroup I suppose. At least, she isn't even close to being one of the most degenerate things you can do in the format.
In any case, I invite you to upload your list here or Deckbox and link it here. There is a tag you can use to have the Deckbox deck show up here for people to see. If you want suggestions, feel free to ask and definitely feel free to engage in any discussion.
I find most Meren builds end up being oppressive enough where people are often right to go after them. While I realized your deck wasn't necessarily that way, I can understand your opponents' takes on the general you were bringing to the table. It can suck (I have a similar problem with my Kykar, Wind's Fury deck). I am not sure I would agree that she is too strong for "regular" commander in most cases, but that really depends on your playgroup I suppose. At least, she isn't even close to being one of the most degenerate things you can do in the format.
In any case, I invite you to upload your list here or Deckbox and link it here. There is a tag you can use to have the Deckbox deck show up here for people to see. If you want suggestions, feel free to ask and definitely feel free to engage in any discussion.
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding Stoneforge's synergy. I don't think she is all that synergistic with the deck. Even Sword of Hearth and Home might not be that great due to not having a ton of ETB triggers to work off of. There are some pretty powerful ones, but not a lot.pokken wrote: ↑2 years agoI feel like I'd play life from the loam before any of that stuff. But I'll play loam in anything. Tranquil thicket is a pretty easy thing to fit.
Maybe you could run a small stoneforge package with skullclamp and umm, sword of hearth and home maybe? Not sure how synergistic any of that is tho.
Anyway no need to do major surgery on a deck that works, maybe just add plumb and rishkars or maybe return if the wild speaker? That seems aces In this.
As for Life, that might be right? I have been avoiding it for a few reasons and I am not sure I want to jump on it quite yet.
I think I am going to try the following. It is a little more than you are suggesting, but I would like to see where I can go with this. I likely end up revisiting some of the cuts, but I generally prefer larger changes that I can scale back rather than incremental ones as it can be easier to see how they work. Though, to be fair, if they don't work, they *really* don't work and can mess things up. Anyway...
10/26/2021
Approximate Total Cost:
I mentioned most things above so I don't want to rehash too much. I do want to call out a couple things though:
I am getting rid of a couple small creatures which makes Plumb a bit worse. It is reasonable to suggest that I shouldn't do both. Either have the smaller creatures with Plumb or don't have any. I am going to split the difference for now but it is possible I need to re-evaluate this piece. I am fine with testing it this way for now.
I do want to see what Awakening can do. I still have quite a bit in the deck it can get.
Guardian Project is partly because I have 2 in paper and never play it in anything. It seems pretty good.
