Karador, Ghost Chieftain - Quest for Control

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WizardMN
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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I got 2 more games in online and both went somewhat well (though the second went much better). The first game was against Estrid, the Masked, Kenrith, the Returned King, and Inferno of the Star Mounts,

Game Summary

I started off with 3 lands, Three Visits, and Dawntreader Elk so I was able to get some early ramp in. However, I also drew quite a few lands in the early turns (I think my first 4 draws were lands). Kenrith did cast Guided Passage and had me choose and I gave them a creature that gave us all lands, a basic Island, and Toxic Deluge. They did request Sol Ring but that seemed wrong for a couple reasons. Primarily because Estrid was going heavy Voltron so we needed someone to deal with the board.

And, eventually, they did. I followed that up with Spike Weaver so I had a way to survive another assault from Estrid. I did end up losing a card to Etali, Primal Storm which I only mention because it was Rishkar's Expertise. It would have only drawn me 3 cards but that still would have been good since I was struggling thanks to the lands I drew early.

Anyway, I ended up drawing Chainer, Dementia Master which didn't do a whole lot since no one's yard had much in it. Estrid swung with a pretty large Bruna, Light of Alabaster at Chandra for some reason. I didn't even realize it until going through the replay (unless the replay messed up which is possible). I ended of fogging for the turn because I felt we needed all of us to take down Estrid. But, there is a potential that wasn't actually true. They were clearly a voltron deck and I had Spike Weaver and Constant Mists with Chainer to get Weaver back. I probably should have just let people die.

And it turns out that Kenrith drew into a Wishclaw Talisman to get to Insurrection which killed Estrid. This happened when they had one card in hand also. With that, they were able to get Etali triggers and a few other things which got them up to 8 cards in hand on the turn.

They just flooded the board with a ton of stuff thanks to Mirari's Wake. One of which was Faerie Artisans. I only mention this because they did get Inferno of the Star Mounts down to 1 life. And then they cast Inferno Titan which Kenrith copied and used to kill the mono-red player. They were not happy but was with Kenrith on this one: they killed themselves.

Anyway, I didn't draw anything for my next turn and scooped it up. I think I was basically at drawing Toxic Deluge or bust. I had lost both Spike Weaver and Chainer thanks to Oko, Thief of Crowns (I did have two turns to draw out of it but didn't get anything). And I lost due to Jinxed Choker so Spike Weaver and Constant Mists weren't helpful anyway.

End of Summary


I think this game primarily came down to me not getting anything relevant. Sure, I got some ramp early on and Spike Weaver helped but I could not get anything on the board and couldn't really seem to engage in the game much. And then, when I did engage by activating Spike Weaver, it might have been a mistake. Honestly, my biggest takeaway is probably that sometimes I just need to let other people die, especially when I have tools against the remaining player(s). While I am not sure Estrid did attack Chandra (the chat suggested Kenrith was attacked), if they did I should have just let it happen. My decks don't tend to play politics and this is a good example of why. There are obviously times when a combo win is going to require some alliances, but combat focused when I have two fogs? Absolutely not.

I did get another game in and this really showed some promise for some of the new cards. This game was against Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper & Eligeth, Crossroads Augur partners, Ashaya, Soul of the Wild, and Codie, Vociferous Codex.

Game Summary

I started with some ramp into Lurrus of the Dream-Den. I had nothing to cast with Lurrus, but a 3/2 lifelinker is still decent so I might as well get some beats in. Next turn I cast Cavalier of Thorns which got me a land and filled my yard with Archon of Justice, Soul of the Harvest, Spike Weaver, and Vesuva. I took Diamond Valley off the trigger.

I really just went on the offensive here as others were still trying to get going. I swung at partners with Lurrus and Codie with Cavalier. I then dropped Kokusho, the Evening Star. This prompted partners to cast Cyclonic Rift so I just sacrificed Kokusho to Diamond Valley and gained 20 life. Ashaya cast Nissa, Vital Force so I cast Recruiter of the Guard to get Karmic Guide. I sacrificed Recruiter to Phyrexian Tower to cast Karmic Guide to get back Archon which I then sacrificed to Diamond Valley to exile Nissa.

Partners cast Eligeth and started "Scrying" which kept their hand full. They also played Bojuka Bog and targeted me which seemed fair. Ashaya cast Primordial Sage and Codie cast their general. I recast Cavalier which binned Dawntreader Elk, Diligent Farmhand, Hour of Revelation, and Damn. I got a Scrubland off of it.

Partners bounced Lurrus and Sage with Inscription of Insight and drew and created a token. Ashaya then cast Avenger of Zendikar which I decided to let live. It was risky, but I was at 77 life by this point. Codie was heavy into Cycling so they just kept cycling. I just cast Remorseful Cleric on my turn and passed. Ashaya beefed up their tokens but decided not to attack for some reason. I thought for sure they would come after me. Codie activated Codie and ended up casting Living End. I sacrificed Cleric targeting them and sacrificed Cavalier to Momentous Fall. I sacrificed Elk to itself and Farmhand to itself (I had gotten them back with Lurrus before Lurrus was removed again).

Ashaya had Tendershoot Dryad which they used to make two tokens. I attacked them with Cavalier and they (predictably) blocked with both tokens. I then killed Tendershoot and they scooped it up. From here I was really just trying to deal with Partners (specifically Eligeth) so I swung into them with Cavalier and a Lifeblood Hydra that I got to 7 counters. They beefed up Eligeth to make it 6 power but decided not to block. Next turn, they cast Mystic Speculation so I removed Eligeth in response. Codie tried countering using a Disrupt so I just paid the {1}.

Codie didn't do a lot on their turn but on my turn they tried to counter something of mine with Countervailing Winds so I just exiled their yard again with Remorseful Cleric that I had gotten back with Lurrus. My spell resolved and I just kept up the pressure. Eventually, I think Partners just scooped since I cleared their board with Ashen Rider and Yawgmoth, Thran Physician. I did decided to treat those creatures as being blocked because I still think people should at least make someone attack before scooping.

In any case, I was able to get Ashen Rider back the next turn with Eternal Witness which I then used to exile two of Codie's creatures and used Yawgmoth to kill the last creature. So I could attack unblocked. This didn't kill them but put them quite low and their next turn didn't give them an out so I swung in and won.

End of Summary


This second game worked far better than the first and much closer to the way I want it to work. Cavalier and Lurrus were pretty good in this game. Lurrus basically just ramped me and Cavalier ramped, gained me life, and offered a beater. I think for the first time it got on the field, it did a lot. I did see Soul of the Harvest in the yard but I never really needed to get to it (and it was exiled with Bog early on anyway). Momentous Fall did what it usually does and everything really came together nicely for the deck.

Due to the first game, I am thinking that with the addition of all the ramp and Cavalier and the card draw, I might be able to justify going down a land (to 37). I am not sure what I want in that spot, but I could see trying to limit the dilution of the deck with lands. I don't think I am going to do that quite yet as a single bad game (in terms of being flooded) is hardly "data" but it might be something worth thinking about later.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Had another couple games online. The first isn't really indicative of a real outing since two people scooped really early. So, it just ended up being me against Tergrid, God of Fright // Tergrid's Lantern

Game Summary

I started off with a few lands, Lurrus, and Diligent Farmhand. I tried to ramp, Lurrus, and then ramp again but one player cast Blasphemous Act so I couldn't do that. Shortly after this, that player and another player scooped. It might have been because of Tergrid, I don't really know. But whatever the reason, I was now the only one Tergrid had to face. So, they recast their general as the Lantern side and just started targeting me. I had Hour of Revelation but I was missing the third white mana for a while.

So, I just kept taking 3 life from the Lantern and once paid 4 life to my Sylvan Library which did end up helping a little. I had to fire off a Rishkar's Expertise with only a Yawgmoth, Thran Physician on the field which basically just got a couple cards out of the way. I did cast Solitude off of it to exile a creature and gain some much needed life (I was at 10 by this point).

Finally, I hit my third white source so I fired off Hour and cast Dauthi Voidwalker. They cast Nevinyrral's Disk so they cracked as soon as they could. I ended up just rebuilding with Karador and Lurrus. I was able to get Liesa, Forgotten Archangel, Soul of the Harvest, and a few others. Soul was pretty big here as it helped keep my hand full and Luminous Broodmoth was good to be able to get stuff back which also triggered Soul.

In the end, I was able to gain life to stay afloat and keep enough cards in hand so Lantern didn't do anything.

End of Summary


As mentioned, this game wasn't the greatest to show how well the deck could do overall since it was just against one player but on the other hand, it was against a Tergrid player who had no other targets so it wasn't necessarily the easiest to maneuver. I did like Soul of the Harvest here. It ended up being pretty good. I actually didn't like Sylvan Library all that much though that is mostly because I couldn't really pay the 4 life to make it worthwhile. If nothing else, it did let me see 3 cards and pick the best one so not the worst.

I am really liking Liesa and Lurrus for life gain as well. The deck doesn't often struggle with gaining life, but this game it sort of did and these two cards came in pretty clutch to help deal with that.

I played another game as well. This time against Dakkon Blackblade, Torbran, Thane of Red Fell, and Lonis, Cryptozoologist.

Game Summary

Torbran got out to a pretty quick start with Pyrostatic Pillar and Spellshock. This put us all in a pretty precarious position but Lonis took the brunt of it. They kept trying to engage, trying to dig but eventually ran out of steam after getting to 5 life. Dakkon and I managed to stay somewhat high but once Torbran came down, it was going to be really tough. I was able to get a few things going to slow them down. I cast Assassin's Trophy to blow up the Spell Shock for example and used Unexpectedly Absent to get rid of Torbran the first time (taking 4 in the process thanks to Leyline of Combustion).

We kept going after them though and we were able to keep them mostly in check. They tried to cast Torbran again but their life total was low enough that me attacking them forced them to block. And Dakkon did their part to keep bringing them even lower. Eventually though they got Rampaging Ferocidon down and I probably should have just cast Damn on it and took the 4 damage (Pyrostatic Pillar was still around). But, I didn't and then I made a huge mistake: I forgot to turn off Auto-Yields. See, I was able to get to Archon of Justice and cast it. Casting it put me to 3 life thanks to my Horizon Canopy (I also had Nurturing Peatland which wasn't helping). Archon entered and Ferocidon triggered to put me to 2. I needed to respond to that trigger (while I was still at 3 life) to sac Archon to Diamond Valley to exile it. I would have gone to 1, exiled Ferocidon, and then gained 4. Then, Diamond Valley would keep me alive with Sacrificing Ulvenwald Hydra.

This was also important because I couldn't block Ferocidon since I had to attack with the Hydra to get rid of Torbran. But, inexplicably, they went after Dakkon with the next attack. This allowed me to swing back at them with Archon which killed them.

From there I was able to use Archon to get rid of some of the equipment on Dakkon's side so I didn't lose to combat. Momentous Fall, sacrificing Archon, into Cathar Commando got rid of two swords they had equipped and gained me life. I was able to get the Archon back with Karmic Guide and leave mana open for Path to Exile. They attacked and I blocked which killed their creature. Then then cast Dakkon Blackblade and I Path'ed him.

To be fair, I did have the win if I had played a land before attacking with my Hydra I still had. Instead, I put them to 1. But, I won in the end.

End of Summary


This game as well played out decently. I did have trouble getting to removal, and the burn slowed down my ramping a little, but I was able to make it work in the end. Now, I did only win because of a misplay on my opponent's part but that only came about because of a UI "issue" (really, my fault) with MODO so I think it evens out. Nothing else to really comment on here. I think the deck is really working quite well with the newest changes though not many showed up in the second game. And I still have not seen Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt which I do want to at least figure out what it can do.
Last edited by WizardMN 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by joshofclubs52 » 2 years ago

Hey, sorry its been a while. I FINALLY found time to play a bit. I've only done a couple games but they have gone well (though not wins). Some of my takeaways with my deck (which I posted earlier in the thread):
  • This deck is definitely a threat. It is able to control the board a bit and dig for answers to various threats. Repeatable wipes and targeted removal stapled on creatures plays well, especially when I can get Lurrus of the Dream-Den. I can use Karador, Ghost Chieftain for getting the removal cards out and Lurrus for reusing my ramp and draw/graveyard fillers. (Clattering Augur, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Satyr Wayfinder ). Grist, the Hunger Tide , Kokusho, the Evening Star , Torment of Hailfire seem to be my bombs that will close these games out.
  • The deck requires patience. You can only cast 1 (or 2 with Lurrus) cards from the graveyard per turn, so making sure you make the right choice is big. There are times I got too eager to control the board state that I was not casting the cards to advance my own board state.
  • I probably could use a bit more ramp. I also find I am reliant on my commander a bit too much. One of the games, he was removed in back-to-back turns, and I stalled a bit because I couldn't cast him. Luckily World Shaper bailed me out and got me a ton of land and allowed me to crawl back up (I finshed 2nd).
  • My favorite cards so far. Grist, the Hunger Tide is just a great card and easy to keep out. At worst he gives me a chump blocker and "draws" me a card by milling me one. He can downtick right away for removal in a pinch, and its not hard to get him into ult territory, which with filling my graveyard can hit HARD. Luminous Broodmoth is one of my favorite cards in a couple of decks. Being able to capitalize of etbs, sacing, and etb again is great. Also board wipes are in your favor with it out. False Prophet is great. I was on the fence originally because I wasn't sure I should be in the business of exiling my own creatures in a Karador deck, but no, it is very good. If i happen to have a sac outlet thats all the better, but even if not, being able to exile my opponents is just too good to not include. One game I was up against aggressive decks, and while I was grinding, their board states just got crazy. False Prophet swung things in my favor. Grist took out 2 opponents before the other one finished me off.
Overall, I really like the deck. Its fun, it doesn't always play the same and you adapt to the other players. It isn't as "solitaire". My first iteration of karador was just tutor/combo. It played the same EVERY time. When I found this post, it was because I knew Karador could be fun, it was just figuring out how to power it down and make it more varied. Goal accomplished. I don't think its far off from being able to win on a semi-consistent basis and the others in my normal pod agree that it seems like it'll be a solid threat at the least in most matches. I have some tinkering I think I want to do. I want to explore Liesa, Forgotten Archangel, Gisa, Glorious Resurrector, Timeless Witness + more instant interaction, and Cavalier of Thorns.

I do think this deck moves up into my #2 in my rotation behind Ezuri (elf ball), with Arcades (wall ball + blink) being a close #3. I also run a Kykar (cantrips), Yedora (budget <$100 but can combo off and get super weird. fun.), Drizzt (big creature aristocratish + elves), Estrid (enchantment pillow fort) and I'm working on a Chatterfang (token aristocrats).

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

A lot of good things to read about here (and sorry for my own delay in writing a response). A few of my own comments:

This deck is absolutely a threat and sometimes (to your second point) our patience with the deck works in our favor to potentially downplay that threat. Sure, we might get steamrolled but when we are only playing a couple things a turn, it makes us look less threatening than we really are.

And I have fallen in the same trap myself sometimes where I know I want to do something to the board so I hold back on my own threats. Which, while sometimes the right play, isn't what we want to do. At the very least, we want some board presence just to do something and to give us some blockers if nothing else. Once we do something to the board, we get our stuff back anyway so we might as well throw out some of our smaller creatures when we can.

Your third point is probably where our playstyles differ. I have often found myself never casting Karador. To the point where I have tried to get further into using him more often. But I could understand the desire for more ramp. I just went through that a while back and added a ton more ramp as well. I don't think I have it finalized but I certainly understand the mindset.

I definitely don't have the same opinion of Grist but, again, this is probably a playstyle/decklist difference. I think he is good and has some synergies, but I already cut him during the last round of changes. I do agree on False Prophet though. He has won me a ton of games and being able to loop him is even better.

Your final points are my biggest joys of the deck too. I have done a lot to ensure the games don't play out the same but the idea of you needing to keep track of everyone is appealing. A number of decks just like to "go off" and try to do so despite what everyone else is doing. I feel this deck wants to go off after knowing what everyone else is doing and, hopefully, having stopped it. Your first Karador deck sounds like my The Gitrog Monster deck where it also played out the same every time which is just mind numbingly boring after a while.

Gisa is interesting so I would like to hear how she goes. I have liked Cavalier and Liesa in this deck so far. And Timeless Witness has been good. I won't say great yet, but I don't think I originally gave Eternalize enough credit.

In any case, I am glad to see you are liking it so far!
Last edited by WizardMN 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I have gotten behind in set updates again but this set did have a bit for quite a few of my decks. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything for this deck. I admit I may have missed something but nothing really stood out to me as a good addition for this deck. Hopefully the next set brings something.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I have gotten behind in set updates again but this set did have a bit for quite a few of my decks. Unfortunately, I couldn't find anything for this deck. I admit I may have missed something but nothing really stood out to me as a good addition for this deck. Hopefully the next set brings something.
I think Cultivator Colossus is it, but it's grossly overpriced atm :) Though getting cheaper I spose.

...and I'm in the wrong thread. :) Colossus probably not super playable here. Not horrible but not great.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

While I realize you ended up posting in the wrong thread, I figured I would respond since I *did* consider Colossus here. But I came to the same conclusion as you where it just doesn't do anything for this deck. We already have better ways of ramping (even if this draws cards too) and the deck doesn't really want another generic beater. The card draw aspect is the main thing I was looking at where I thought I could turn lands in hand into something else but I don't think it ever comes up enough where I would get more than 2 cards off of it since I have likely been playing all my lands all game.

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Post by boer0829 » 2 years ago

What are some good sweepers on a stick in Karador, Ghost Chieftain? I'm trying crypt rats but it is too mana intensive. I read in the posts on this thread about False Prophet, but i have the feeling you need an extra loophole (sacrifce or something) to use it, though the results are good.

What are the thoughts on Magister of Worth and Cataclysmic Gearhulk? Are there more options for sweepers on a stick?

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

My go to, for a creature anyway, is False Prophet. Yes, we need a sac outlet to break the symmetry but in many cases we don't even care about breaking symmetry. That is, sometimes we just need to wipe the board. And it is one of the easiest to loop to ensure the board stays clear until someone deals with it.

I had Crypt Rats for a while and it wasn't bad but I ended up needing room for other stuff so I cut it. I wouldn't run Magister since it is expensive and you end up in a situation where one result is worse for you and then likely ends up being the result that gets chosen. I don't want my effects to be up to my opponents to decide. Gearhulk is a reasonable choice though. They do keep their strongest stuff but sometimes that is fine.

Massacre Wurm, Massacre Girl, and Demon of Dark Schemes are somewhat decent options depending on what your meta looks like.

In reality though, I think going with non-creature wraths to supplement something like False Prophet or Crypt Rats is where you want to be. Toxic Deluge or Damnation or Hour of Revelation are going to be the better options to just reset and start over.

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Post by shermanido37 » 2 years ago

As I tend to face very creature heavy decks, I play False Prophet, Night Incarnate, and Cataclysmic Gearhulk, along with Living Death.
I was just as cautious as you are about False Prophet, but as long as you have a decent number of sac outlets in your deck, the card is ridiculously effective at its job. And my deck, between Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, Altar of Dementia, and other creatures, as well as Phyrexian Tower and High Market for lands, has benefitted from it greatly.
Cataclysmic Gearhulk is a fantastic piece of tech, but only if you face decks that go heavy on certain card types. The card is pretty mediocre if your opponent gets to keep more than 2 or 3 cards, since we will most likely keep only about 3 ourselves. However in many cases it has resulted in empty boards and ruined plans for my opponents - enchantress, artifact tribal, token swarm... You name it. Worth mentioning is that Gearhulk itself can be treated as either an artifact or a creature, which means it'll usually be left behind, which is significant considering it's such a chunky body.
I don't think Night Incarnate gets enough credit in Karador decks - the card has been an absolute lockdown machine for me. Let's start for the fact that it's there for the evoke - the other uses are marginal at best. But that evoke is great to have - especially since we really like it when our stuff dies, and since it doesn't kill Karador. Which means you can evoke with him over and over again for your enjoyment. I have beat many a token swarm deck with this tactic - they simply can't deal with the consistent board wipes, and just give up. While Gearhulk can also theoretically be spammed, if you control Karador and another artifact, 4 mana and 5 mana aren't quite the same, and Gearhulk's body will usually be better than any other body you can choose to leave behind.

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Post by boer0829 » 2 years ago

Thans for the suggestions!

I think I will add False Prophet with extra sac outlets. That card will do alot of work.

Magister of Worth is a bit of a gamble. I will skip on that one.

Cataclysmic Gearhul will do lotus of work in controller the board. I play alot spot removal, annoying will be removed anyway.

Also Night Incarnate seems very good. There are alot of small creature decks in my meta. Evoking this thing will lock them out of the game

What about Sunblast Angel?

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

boer0829 wrote:
2 years ago
What about Sunblast Angel?
Wow, I am super late to this (I guess the holidays just made me forget all about it). So, this question in particular: I don't think the Angel is good enough. 6 mana is a lot and to not actually kill all creatures, it is inconsistent. There is certainly going to be a time where all 3 opponents attacked on their turns and you drop this and blow the board, but that becomes less likely if you have it in your yard where they can see it coming. And since that is the situation where being a creature matters, it might be enough to say that it isn't good enough.

It is, however, one of the few real options for creature destruction on a creature. Depending on how many cards you have in hand at a given time, I might lean on Kagemaro, First to Suffer as an option. It is similar to Night Incarnate but also allows you go to go a bit bigger if you need to. It isn't always controllable (the worst would be not having any other cards in hand and casting it) but creatures that destroy, and that work when being cast from somewhere other than the hand, are few and far between.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Cataclysmic Gearhulk has been great in my Sefris list. Especially in a deck packing plenty of spot removal, it's not too hard to clean up most of the board and then remove the best card left over. I've found it rare to have situations where this doesn't get the job done. Generally, either there's one thing that NEEDS to be removed, in which case you probably have spot removal for that, or you need to beat back one or more opponents who are building up too much.

Massacre Girl would be my other preferred creature-based sweeper, but depends heavily on what your board state looks like most of the time. If you have a handful of x/1s or a few creatures + a sac outlet, it's a super-strong card, and can end up removing basically everything. Other times, it's a 4/4 Menace for 5 that does nothing.

Massacre Wurm is a pretty strong card, but, again, it may not really do anything if what you're worried about are bigger creatures. I wouldn't want to rely on this as a sweeper.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I played another game online (finally). This one was against Grolnok, the Omnivore, Volo, Guide to Monsters, and Omnath, Locus of the Roil.

Game Summary

I started off with a decent hand, but not great. I did mulligan once so I didn't want to throw it away. I had 3 lands, (one of which was Dryad Arbor), Fiend Artisan, Archon of Justice, and Unexpectedly Absent.

I basically just laid low for the beginning but mostly because I didn't have anything else to do. Grolnok and Omnath weren't doing much (though Omnath killed my Fiend Artisan). Volo was starting to get out of control. I will admit that I had a chance to sac my Archon to get rid of Volo but this was after they had already got 2 Wandering Archaic // Explore the Vastlands so I was basically looking for a wrath anyway. And I had a Vampiric Tutor to do it.

Volo actually slowed down just a bit but that didn't necessarily make them not the target so I just waited. I did finally get some ramp in Sakura-Tribe Elder which I tried to repeat with Phyrexian Reclamation but I couldn't find the best time to just cast it again. I was able to get Fiend Artisan back which was super helpful in that it got me False Prophet which was needed because Volo had 2 Avenger of Zendikar and something like 16 tokens, each with 4 counters on them. The problem was that I tried to Tutor for Hour of Revelation first since I really wanted a bunch of noncreatures gone as well but Volo countered that. I even thought about the fact that they could have Fierce Guardianship in hand when tapped out but with 2 cards, but I took a risk and lost.

So, when I got Prophet, I didn't have a sac outlet for him. Luckily, I convinced Grolnok to attack me so there went the board. Now the threat was Omnath due to the ramping they had been doing and because they still had 7 cards in hand thanks to Omnath. Again, another target for Archon if I needed to but I wanted to hold out for a little while as Volo was the threat at the time.

After this, Grolnok sort of stole the show. They already had an Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle about ready to remove the last counter, they had a Druid Class on Level 2, and they still got to cast stuff after Prophet exiled everything. So, on their next turn, they swung into Omnath with the land creature they made with Druid Class and with Arixmethes and with an Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath that they equipped with Lightning Greaves. So, Omnath was out.

Volo ended up scooping a few minutes later as the game went on longer than they expected (we were only at a little over an hour at this time) so then it was just me against Grolnok and I wasn't in the worst position. However, they had gained a bunch of life off Druid Class and were at 66 life and one of the cards they got off Grolnok was Aetherflux Reservoir so I just straight up died as soon as that entered.

End of Summary

I am sure I was being too cautious to begin with but since the two threats at the beginning were not the ones that won, I might have made the right call after all to just let things play out a bit. I admit the biggest mistake was trying to get Hour of Revelation. Or, at least, casting Vamp Tutor in my upkeep to get it. If I had at least done that in Omnath's turn, I would have had 1 land untapped so I could have left my High Market or Diamond Valley untapped (an opposing Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth let the latter tap for mana) to just sac Prophet when I wanted to. This would have put up a reasonable defense and might have convinced Volo to just go after the other two people. While it wouldn't have killed Grolnok, it would have gotten them low.

On the flip side, part of the reason Grolnok ended up being so much of a threat was because they got to cast so much out of exile so if I had the ability (and foresight) to sac Prophet right away, they might not have been able to do all that. They didn't have a lot of mana and Grolnok would have cost 8 I think so that would have been their turn. Instead they got Arixmethes and Lightning Greaves. The latter helped them tap new creatures for mana that they got off Desecrated Tomb thanks to Cryptolith Rite when Grolnok was exiling stuff. Their turn was pretty explosive and killing everything before that at least slows them down.

Which does remind me: I probably should add Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth to this deck. It is another way to ensure I can tap Diamond Valley and Bazaar of Baghdad for mana and it also fixes my green mana which can be important. In the next round of changes, I will see if I can remember it.

The only other thing worth mentioning is the current discussion around creature based sweepers. Cataclysmic Gearhulk and Massacre Girl/Massacre Wurm were mentioned above. I mentioned Kagemaro, First to Suffer. So, in the situation where it really mattered (where I got False Prophet and assuming I was smart enough not to try to cast Hour), here is what each one would have done (assuming slight changes in play to make them work):

Kagemaro - I had (or would have had, if I didn't cast Tutor) 6 cards in hand though I would have likely still played a land so that would put me at 5 cards in hand. This still kills everything except for Omnath who was an 11/11 at the time. Not the worst, but not quite as good as Prophet. It also would have forced me to activate it before Volo's turn so I wouldn't have gotten the added benefit of letting them swing somewhere first. I realize I could have still activated it to save me, but it wouldn't have killed their tokens if I waited.

Massacre Wurm - Would have done basically nothing as almost nothing was 2 toughness or less.

Night Incarnate - Would have also done nothing here. It would have at least killed a couple things but not nearly enough to matter.

Sunblast Angel - No creatures were tapped at this time.

Massacre Girl - This would have had 3 additional triggers to start with: killing my Dryad Arbor Volo's Lotus Cobra, and Omnath's Eternal Witness. The next trigger to resolve would have killed Incubation Druid and Hedron Crab from Grolnok (at 4 triggers now). The next trigger then would kill Fiend Artisan, Grolnok, Augur of Autumn, and Volo (up to 6 triggers). The next one then kills the 2 Archaics (up to 7 triggers), and the next one kills Gyre Sage, 16 Plant tokens and 2 Avengers (up to 25 triggers). After that, only Omnath is left and he is going to die to the remaining 25 triggers.

Cataclysmic Gearhulk - This would have removed noncreatures as well, but the permanents that likely would have remained were: Grolnok, Maskwood Nexus, and Druid Class for Grolnok. Then, Volo probably would have just kept Volo. Maybe a Wandering Archaic? And Omnath would have kept Omnath and Liquimetal Torque.

So, of these, Wurm, Incarnate, and Angel (in this situation) were clearly the worst. Kagemaro and Gearhulk still leave Omnath alone but get rid of everything else, and Gearhulk at least gets rid of a couple noncreatures (mostly from Grolnok's board). But still leaves Volo and Grolnok alive to do stuff which would have potentially allowed them to end the game a little earlier since they didn't need to cast Grolnok again.

Massacre Girl seems like she is easily the best option of these 4 in this particular situation. Not only does she wipe the board but she also gives me a blocker in case I need her.

Now, obviously, this is not enough for a single data point to say that she is objectively better than the rest but a single data point is still better than none. I do think that as long as there is at least 2 creatures that die right away (either X/1s or an X/1 and an X/2) she probably cascades enough to kill most of the board since there are bound to be a couple X/3s as well. Or maybe just a ton of smaller creatures that die to kill off the big ones. If she can't, either there aren't any small creatures or there simply aren't enough worth killing. The latter means she wouldn't be used and the former is just bad luck. She is still situational and conditional but is probably one I would go to over the rest.

Gearhulk otherwise is decent and just ends up being less useful here mostly due to the lack of a lot of noncreatures on the board. I would still say that leaving Omnath would still be a problem here. Though, Omnath got big enough that Massacre Girl might sometimes have a problem with that even if she gets everything else. There is no guarantee we have 10 other creatures that are going to die.

So, again, not exactly a definitive assessment but at least a breakdown of this particular scenario and what would be best.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

I have played Massacre Girl in some EDH decks and on in some Historic Brawl decks on Arena, and have found that for every time she's a full board wipe, there's one time where she just doesn't do anything/enough. Either too many big creatures and not enough little creatures are around, or someone removes the lone x/1 on the board before she enters, ensuring no additional triggers.

Gearhulk has its own limitations, obviously, but I have more consistently found it to do the job needed. If you don't have any other artifacts around that you care about, you can also choose the Gearhulk as your artifact, leaving you with 2 creatures to everybody else's one.

Kagemaro is a good card, but again, it's almost never going to kill anything with toughness more than 7, and much of the time is capped at 3 or 4 probably.

I agree that the ones that do -2 or -3 to everything aren't worth consideration as sweepers unless the meta features an abundance of decks for which these would be especially effective. Massacre Wurm at least acts as a finisher alongside other removal, but by itself sometimes does basically nothing.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

That is my main concern with MG. She looks good on paper but it can be pretty detrimental when we can't get her triggers going. I would hate to be in that situation where we just can't get her off the ground to start doing stuff. I still think she is one of the better options here but can be hit or miss.

Gearhulk is likely the best option though. As you say, it is consistent and the fact that we can often keep it with no other artifacts we care about (and I don't include any other artifacts in my build anyway) is a mark in its favor. If only we could make the choices and I think it would be an easy include. As it is, I think if a creature based wrath is desired, it is still good even if it can end up being somewhat limited.

And I agree on the rest. -3/-3 isn't enough in too many situations and Kagemaro, at best, tops out at -5/-5 but probably ends up in the -2 or -3 range most often.

The reality is that there are very few creature based wraths so, at some point, the decision might just need to come down to the idea of taking the best among a set of bad options. And Gearhulk seems one of the better options.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

I think there is probably a non wrath angle that would solve the creature problems. Might try something like windborn muse or peacekeeper

It's possible a recruiter for false prophet might do the trick as well

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think my main issue with things like Peacekeeper and Muse are that they are very short term. Sure, they stop combat (Muse only stops it against you, more or less) but one removal spell later and the board is just as scary as it was before. They can help, for sure, but creatures are the most fragile card type out there so throwing something out there as a stopgap seems like it is more likely someone else is going to get spot removal before we get a true wrath.

Recruiter is an excellent choice and is one I already run for a few different reasons. So it is a good suggestion to anyone else looking for redundancy. Chord of Calling and Fiend Artisan are good too. It seems like perhaps going up some tutors like this, and perhaps at least 1 additional creature based wrath, is where we want to be. We don't want to be all in on Prophet after all.

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Post by pokken » 2 years ago

WizardMN wrote:
2 years ago
I think my main issue with things like Peacekeeper and Muse are that they are very short term. Sure, they stop combat (Muse only stops it against you, more or less) but one removal spell later and the board is just as scary as it was before. They can help, for sure, but creatures are the most fragile card type out there so throwing something out there as a stopgap seems like it is more likely someone else is going to get spot removal before we get a true wrath.

Recruiter is an excellent choice and is one I already run for a few different reasons. So it is a good suggestion to anyone else looking for redundancy. Chord of Calling and Fiend Artisan are good too. It seems like perhaps going up some tutors like this, and perhaps at least 1 additional creature based wrath, is where we want to be. We don't want to be all in on Prophet after all.
Womp womp, I didn't remember you having a recruiter in this :)

Try Apex Altisaur. That's the best creature wrath hands down.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

I think that runs into problems here. It *only* kills creatures with 9 power total + 1 final creature with toughness 10 or less. I run it in Windgrace though I am not sure I ever got it out so I certainly wouldn't be opposed to it, but a 9 mana "wrath" that doesn't necessarily kill everything could be a tough sell. And when talking about tutors, it becomes 10 mana with Fiend Artisan and 12 (though Convoke helps a little) with Chord of Calling.

And, of course, in the last game it doesn't kill Omnath.

Now, in most situations I think it has potential but that mana cost is extremely limiting and it feels bad to drop this out and then still have a bunch of big creatures hanging around because it died to an earlier Fight. I think I would easily go with Massacre Girl or Gearhulk over Altisaur. At least, in this deck.

I do think its stock goes up a bit if running a true reanimator build where that mana cost becomes less relevant so it isn't a terrible card overall. I just think it needs a specific shell to work in where either you reanimate it or you just have a ton of mana to work with. Neither of which describe this deck.

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Post by yeti1069 » 2 years ago

Elvish Dreadlord is a little clunky, but it has the potential to do -9/-9 from the graveyard for 7 mana, or -3/-3 for 5 mana along with a sac outlet.
Realm-Cloaked Giant // Cast Off [/card] can't be recurred as a board wipe as easily, but benefits from other creature synergies.
Mageta the Lion is slow, and comes with a steep cost (not too bad here where discarding isn't so bad).
Magus of the Disk is similar to Mageta, but ensures that even with a haste enabler you have to wait a turn cycle to activate.
Novablast Wurm is also slow, but is pretty interesting. I'd never heard of this one.
Sanguine Praetor is expensive to cast, and can be a little awkward, but also grants a ton of flexibility in what you're killing.
Bane of the Living is a solid board wipe without the slowness of some of the other creature-based options, it just requires mana. Assuming it's in your yard, it costs where X = greatest toughness among creatures you want to remove.

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Post by WizardMN » 2 years ago

Here are my thoughts on new cards from Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty:

White Cards

Ao, the Dawn Sky - This doesn't seem like the worst card for the deck. It is generally easy to get things to die and it is a good, big beater which I have been wanting to try to fill out for a while. And the dies trigger (almost always choosing the first mode) isn't bad at all either. A mini-Protean Hulk of sorts and can hit a lot of really good cards. Spike Weaver, False Prophet, Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, and Luminous Broodmoth just at the 4 drop slot. There are plenty of things at 2 and 3 as well but I think most of the time I can expect a single card off it which I think is fine. Especially if I am digging for something specific. I know 7 cards isn't a lot, but it can be decent.

Lion Sash - I think if I was running Scavenging Ooze still, I might contemplate making this switch as I think the ease of getting a counter is better than the life and being able to throw it onto a flyer could be good too.

Spirited Companion - Another card that cantrips on entering the field. I think I prefer the Walls (which I already cut) but it is nice to see more cards like this.

Black Cards

Junji, the Midnight Sky - As with Ao, this gives another beater that has some additional utility. I am not a "true" reanimator deck but having some reanimator elements is nice. It is why Chainer is here. And thanks to my sac outlets, I think this being a dies trigger is far better than an ETB trigger since I can more easily control when it triggers. I like the card and might try to find room for it (somehow...).

Green Cards

Kura, the Boundless Sky - Another flyer and a way to get lands. It is only to hand, but it is also any land. This might be just on the line for this deck but I like the effect. I don't think I can quite find the room for it, but not the worst card.

Spring-Leaf Avenger - Eternal Witness but repeatable. I would offer the caveat of needing to deal damage but it is a 6/5 creature so it seems fairly easy to either get through or kill a blocker. I don't think it is consistent enough to always trigger since it can be blocked by anything, but I like the effect. Since Ninjutsu is 4 mana, I might just end up slotting it in over Timeless Witness. The condition of being a permanent card is limiting but the possibility of repeating its effect is pretty nice.

Multicolor Cards

Gloomshrieker - This is in the same vein but being single use and not being able to recur it and also limiting to a permanent card means this is easier to pass on.

Colorless and Land Cards

Boseiju, Who Endures - A land drop or removal is pretty good and I wouldn't mind being able to up my land count for certain situations while also not really taking away from my spell count. This is also a lot harder to counter and is a pretty efficient removal spell.

Takenuma, Abandoned Mire - It isn't quite as good as Volrath's Stronghold here since it is one time use but another land I can add to up the land count is definitely appreciated. Though, I don't really have a straight swap for this so it might not up the land count at all and might just be swapped for a Forest or something (I don't think I can go down on the basic Swamps or Plains).

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Here are my thoughts on cards from Streets of New Capenna:

Green Cards

Topiary Stomper - I like this card but I have plenty of other cards that make the cut before this one. And I don't think I want to cut any of the existing 3 drops for this one. So, if I need/want another effect like this it might be worth revisiting but as of now, it is a pass.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Since Baldur's Gate previews have concluded, here are my thoughts on some of the cards from the set that might work in this deck as well as some lands from the previous set I missed.

Green Cards

Majestic Genesis - I don't really think this is a great card but if I ever did want to try it, this would be the deck since Karador is an 8 MV Commander. I think there are better options. Though, more importantly, I don't really think it is the type of effect the deck needs. But, it still looks like a fun card to simply "spin the wheel" and see what happens.

Owlbear Cub - This looks fun but I doubt I am going to have many creatures I want to put onto the field with this as there is a fairly high chance they just enter and die due to a block. Granted, there are probably enough creatures in the deck that I only care about their ETB triggers anyway, but the randomness isn't quite what I want to see.

Colorless and Land Cards

Shattered Sanctum, Deathcap Glade, Overgrown Famrland - These are all pretty good lands. While they aren't the best on Turn 2 and maybe turn 1, they are great from turn 3 onwards. They seem pretty solid in terms of fixing in all but the most aggressive decks and, even then, seem still worthwhile as they are very unlikely to be the only land one keeps.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Here are the newest changes for this deck:
6/13/2022
Approximate Total Cost:

As with other decks, I ended looking to basics to cut. And, as with a few others, this is less than ideal for a number of reasons. In this case, I decided to go a slightly different direction in terms of what lands to go down. These three all enter tapped or otherwise can't be used the turn they are played. And a few more times that I would like, Arbor has died due to a board wipe. I don't think the benefits of Arbor are really present anymore. And both Vesuva and Bog were mostly here thanks to the interaction with Crop Rotation which I am no longer running. I think if I added Rotation back, Bog might come back too but Vesuva just isn't enough right now either way.

I do realize I am cutting 3 utility lands for 3 mana producing lands, but I think with the vast array of utility lands in this deck, a few more that are *just* mana producing is probably warranted anyway. It helps smooth out the mana base, especially in the early game. To be fair, I probably should be running 40 lands in this deck for a few reasons, so I might end up trying to fit a couple of these back in anyway. Or, at least, adding more for just straight mana.

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