Ephara, God of the Polis - Flash & Taxes

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Final note: I have not lost a game to a group hug deck that I can think of. The mono white font of mythos/howling mine/mikokoro deck was pretty powerful - lots of good cards and stuff. But if I get to see 10 extra cards you're gonna have a bad game. I really hate them because of how they accelerate the pace of the game.
First, that is a great summary and sounds like some pretty sweet plays. I like the idea that you baited them into giving you your win so you couldn't stop their play. Only to stop it anyway :)

Second, I relate so much to this comment. I hate group hug decks with a passion for this very reason. I am not a fan of the idea that all of a sudden my careful planning and everything else is thrown out the window because people draw a ton of cards or get a ton of mana each turn. I am glad you have not lost to those decks yet.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

There are a ton of factors but this deck is really resilient to the stax pieces and sweepers group hug decks usually rely on to break parity, and can usually stay ahead of the group hug effects with Ephara. I honestly do not understand the desire to play that way with everyone drawing 4 cards a turn or doubling mana or whatever. It's unnatural and doesn't really give you any sense of if your deck is good at magic or not since seeing so many cards will make any deck do stuff (always hitting land drops, always drawing gas).

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Oooh spoiler season! I love core sets, they're the most likely place to get exciting hatebears.

I think I will strongly consider this, and surely play it somewhere - feels a lot like Ghostly Prison especially against any 3 power or less attackers. Strongly entices people to attack you with only one creature. Might be better than Deputy of Detention in my current list, though I'll need to think hard on that. It is quite a lot of card draw.

I can say from experience playing Kraum, Ludevic's Opus that the trigger happens an awful lot in most games.

As a mono white commander I think he's very interesting as well. Plays great with Maze of Ith effects which I love, but also generates a ton of card draw at 4 cmc which is always something I am on the lookout for.

(until the cardimg library gets updated)


Last edited by pokken 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

This guy was part of early M21 leaks, and once those became more and more realistic I actually playtested him in Daxos. And he was bad. Turns out that just locking someone under a Rule of Law is infinitely more potent than suggesting they stay under those restrictions. The feather that broke my back on this one was a guy doing a lot of draw/tutoring to locate Toxic Deluge to wipe me, and all I got as payoff was a sodding land draw :P

Maybe it's a playgroup thing. But it just wasn't working out.
 
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Post by ISBPathfinder » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
This guy was part of early M21 leaks, and once those became more and more realistic I actually playtested him in Daxos. And he was bad. Turns out that just locking someone under a Rule of Law is infinitely more potent than suggesting they stay under those restrictions. The feather that broke my back on this one was a guy doing a lot of draw/tutoring to locate Toxic Deluge to wipe me, and all I got as payoff was a sodding land draw :P

Maybe it's a playgroup thing. But it just wasn't working out.
I think that playgroup level as well as the difference between commander and 99 will matter a lot for this guy. If you are playing in a group with lots of combo where Rule of Law might be amazing, I don't see this being very good. Mono white tends to suck against combo anyways.

In the 99 I think I don't love it in a lot of places. The human and cleric tribal decks might have incentive to run him but I think in a lot of other places especially multicolored decks he falls off kind of fast.

I think I would maybe test it in a few places in mono white in the 99. I could see maybe Boros also valuing this especially if you did some sort of force combat style of deck like say Basandra, Battle Seraph. I plan on at least looking into what they would be like as the commander but I don't think this is going to be something that multicolored white decks really want.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I feel like as a mono white general it's probably...like top 3 if you're not looking to combo though. 4 cmc card advantage engine with a good body and lifelink enables a *lot* of gameplay styles in mono white.

All the hoops mono white decks have to jump through for cards just evaporate when you have a crappy personal howling mine in the zone. No desperate search for skullclamp or mentor or whatever.

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Post by shermanido37 » 1 year ago

If your meta is decent, having your opponents play multiple spells per turn usually means they are ahead and don't care about your one card.
However, this guy can be pretty sick in a deck that forces people to attack *you*. I emphasized the last part because that's where the problem is. Goading is a really useful mechanic in multiplayer, as well as pillowforts to keep you safe. Both of these guarantee combat tension will be higher on the other players, but having it be high on yourself is usually a recipe for disaster.

I'm confused at the attempt to compare Deputy to this card. One gets rid of anything, one is just mildly annoying.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

shermanido37 wrote:
1 year ago
If your meta is decent, having your opponents play multiple spells per turn usually means they are ahead and don't care about your one card.
However, this guy can be pretty sick in a deck that forces people to attack *you*. I emphasized the last part because that's where the problem is. Goading is a really useful mechanic in multiplayer, as well as pillowforts to keep you safe. Both of these guarantee combat tension will be higher on the other players, but having it be high on yourself is usually a recipe for disaster.

I'm confused at the attempt to compare Deputy to this card. One gets rid of anything, one is just mildly annoying.
Yeah no real comparison except deputy is probably my worst card or at least up there - one that jumps out at me.

Overall the deck is working pretty well now - 2/3 since I got it all set up on mtgo. Lost due to assuming FG would stop a combo but it was Kenrith and he did graftmage+faeburrow elder combo. I coulda kept mana up and played Forbid but I was greedy for the nadir kraken draws.

Nadir Kraken is stupid. Every time I play it it goes off pretty much. I can't imagine not playing it at this point. It is frustrating that it soaks mana and sometimes I am greedy with it, but it's still very good. The way it resets on my draw is just so good.

I had another game where I got to Intuition for Palinchron + 2 counterspells, then untap and Recruiter of the Guard for Karmic Guide and win with Eldrazi Displacer . Which was sick.

In that game the last guy made me play it out but I was able to very quickly just venser his entire board and kill him with combat damage over 2 turns.

So far most of the time I am able to set up infinite mana I have been able to somehow get some way to close the game out, but I've been seeing a lot of Eldrazi Displacer lately and it makes that tick really well.

A super sweet situation with Faerie Artisans arose where someone was playing The Mimeoplasm -- which properly discouraged them from doing mimeoplasm stuff as far as I could tell. I think I originally misread *just* how discouraging that would be, but still quite cool interaction. I think it properly shut down the ability to do Mikaeus+Triskelion combo without help.

It also got me a Somberwald Sage which gave me the mana to combo off which was very nice.

That card is particularly *bonkers* online due to the low removal count.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

So I got to play a super grindy game where Mystic Sanctuary kinda went off. It definitely won me the game although it was quite slow - I basically blinked Spellseeker until I ran out of spells in my deck and was able to counter/answer everything. I won the game ultimately through combat damage with multiple Sun Titan + casting Winds of Abandon a record setting 4 times. Go go Salvager of Secrets off the top for the last one.

I was able to do some gross stuff where I was one card away from going infinite with someone else's Dockside Extortionist + Ghostly Flicker, I used my stunt double to play a ton of extra lands with Oracle of Mul Daya, and generally abused the loving heck out of Ghostly Flicker

I stuck 13 mana worth of mana drains, one off Snapcaster Mage and was able to use that plus going +6 lands off of Sun Titan and +2 off oracle and +1 off the other guy's Kynaios to be firmly in control from a mana perspective.

I think the game must have been 12 turns long. I would have combo'd out much earlier but my Mystical Tutor got bogged early which slowed it down. It makes me think that Enlightened Tutor might be better off as Merchant Scroll since many, many times I have wanted a second way to find Intuition.

Overall I am very pleased with how the deck is working but there are a few ways in which it feels kinda clunky.

Cartographer's Hawk has been nothing but a boat anchor every time I've seen it after the first, I never want to cast it and wait a turn and very often I am ahead on lands even against lands decks. I am strongly considering swapping it for Kor Cartographer just to see how I like it despite its slowness.

Have I mentioned how much I like Winds of Abandon? That card is absolutely money for me every single time. So many decks are so dependent on recursion that just blanking that is brutal. The decks that can use the mana usually don't have basics enough to take advantage.

Edit: snaps has also been the absolute nuts. He was always kinda medium but with the increased spell count he's been great.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Cartographer's Hawk has been nothing but a boat anchor every time I've seen it after the first, I never want to cast it and wait a turn and very often I am ahead on lands even against lands decks. I am strongly considering swapping it for Kor Cartographer just to see how I like it despite its slowness.
I would really like to hear what you do with this. I really want the Hawk to be good and it seems like this is the best place for it. So, if it doesn't work here, I am not sure it really works anywhere.

I wonder if Solemn is ultimately better than Cartographer though? It can only get basics, but does draw a card when it dies. Maybe the inability to get duals is enough to lean towards Cartographer though?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I will def give it a few more games and see if it ever gives me a good opener that'd otherwise not work. That was my main thinking. So far I have put it under chrome mox twice and that is a bad sign.

So I have two white medallion effects which makes me lean cartographer but the deck does really care about both islands and plains atm. Finding a bunch of each is very good. I have 4 duals I can find which is a long way toward emeria and enables sanctuary.

I think that ultimately white orchid might be better than either. Less spammable but creates some nice sequencing options by putting it into play untapped.

It's entirely possible that I will just plop a foil fellwar stone or arcane signet in there whichever comes first. I had a sol ring signet game today and it was savage.

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Post by shermanido37 » 1 year ago

Frankly, if you're ahead even versus land matters decks, and if they don't even have removal for a flying 2/2, it sounds like your deck is just better than the meta you're in, or perhaps that they just aren't adjusting to it.
My thoughts are that in a higher power level meta, Ghostly Flicker just won't cut it, but if you can get away with it and it wins you games, all the more power to you.

I'm not sure about the claims of a hatebear being more likely in core sets - the only serious hatebear I recall seeing in a core set is Remorseful Cleric, and even it is subpar for EDH. The most powerful bears have usually been from commander sets or other eternal sets, i.e. Containment Priest, Faerie Artisans, Recruiter of the Guard and more.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Who in the hell would blow removal on a Rampant Hawk? :P

It's a good card, in slower games in a mid power group. Someone has more lands and no fliers, always. That said, this Ephara would eat my group alive.
 
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Post by shermanido37 » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
Who in the hell would blow removal on a Rampant Hawk? :P
I was referring to Faerie Artisans when he mentioned his group didn't remove it. A crucial mistake in my eyes, especially if the group is ETB the gathering.

Can I mention Teferi's Ageless Insight? I mean I know Alhammarret's Archive is probably better, but it costs 1 less and counts as a blue card if you want to discount it.

Also... Don't expect a good hatebear this set. Containment Priest is being reprinted.

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Post by Rumpy5897 » 1 year ago

Fair enough. Sorry, I'm underslept.

I'd say Ageless Insight > Archive in non-lifegain scenarios, including here. Cheaper, less perishable permanent type. Seems good. That said, is this even a sort of thing that you want to run in here?
 
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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

Rumpy5897 wrote:
1 year ago
Fair enough. Sorry, I'm underslept.

I'd say Ageless Insight > Archive in non-lifegain scenarios, including here. Cheaper, less perishable permanent type. Seems good. That said, is this even a sort of thing that you want to run in here?
I don't plan on running it but it does make a interesting dilemma for things that do run Archive. I like it and will pick up a couple just in case and might try it out in Varina. Losing the lifegain doubling is tough, but being cheaper might be worth it.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

shermanido37 wrote:
1 year ago
Frankly, if you're ahead even versus land matters decks, and if they don't even have removal for a flying 2/2, it sounds like your deck is just better than the meta you're in, or perhaps that they just aren't adjusting to it.
My thoughts are that in a higher power level meta, Ghostly Flicker just won't cut it, but if you can get away with it and it wins you games, all the more power to you.

I'm not sure about the claims of a hatebear being more likely in core sets - the only serious hatebear I recall seeing in a core set is Remorseful Cleric, and even it is subpar for EDH. The most powerful bears have usually been from commander sets or other eternal sets, i.e. Containment Priest, Faerie Artisans, Recruiter of the Guard and more.
Lots of the Lands decks cannot handle having all their crap removed. - like they choke and can't keep the cards flowing if you kill their payoff cards. That's my experience anyway. On MTGO they are very greedy.

It's possible Ghostly Flicker is not good, but so far on MTGO it has been. I'll cop that Ephara is likely slightly stronger than the average MTGO meta, but people play very strong decks. I think mostly they aren't prepared for the level of instant speed stuff I'm willing to suffer through doing in the client =P

So lots of the core set hatebears are bad. But they print a lot of generalist crap like Suncleanser and Hushwing Gryff and such. So there's bound to be a hit :)




Meh. I would rather just play Mulldrifter.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
It's possible Ghostly Flicker is not good, but so far on MTGO it has been. I'll cop that Ephara is likely slightly stronger than the average MTGO meta, but people play very strong decks. I think mostly they aren't prepared for the level of instant speed stuff I'm willing to suffer through doing in the client =P
I wonder how true this is. You have mentioned that there is very little removal and (at least in one game) I noticed there isn't much Instant timing stuff going on. Maybe the client really is to blame since so many people just want to F6 or F8. Which, of course, means that when are the one with Instants, you can catch people off guard.

And yeah, I think Mulldrifter is likely more relevant that Insight in this deck. It isn't like we are hurting for cards as it is.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

WizardMN wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
It's possible Ghostly Flicker is not good, but so far on MTGO it has been. I'll cop that Ephara is likely slightly stronger than the average MTGO meta, but people play very strong decks. I think mostly they aren't prepared for the level of instant speed stuff I'm willing to suffer through doing in the client =P
I wonder how true this is. You have mentioned that there is very little removal and (at least in one game) I noticed there isn't much Instant timing stuff going on. Maybe the client really is to blame since so many people just want to F6 or F8. Which, of course, means that when are the one with Instants, you can catch people off guard.
It has definitely been my general experience that people seem to avoid keeping mana up and interacting on the stack. They will often interact at the wrong times as well. I suspect that this is almost entirely client fatigue. It doesn't bother me that much to just press 1 and pass priority but it does make games longer when I sometimes have to decide whether I want to react to something. I definitely spend more time deciding than most people on MTGO.

I really don't want to play solitaire but there is definitely a solitaire-bias - and I suspect there are elements of this build that are exaggeratedly powerful because of that.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago



Well I guess that's an upgrade. I think I could probably play it over Salvager of Secrets because of the ability to tutor for
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Just had another game where Faerie Artisans ran amok. Combination of Ephemerate and Charming Prince blink results in me having 2 copies of Archangel of Thune - the guy who enabled that eventually scooped in shame at the end as he allowed artisans to kill his Asceticism with a token copy of Knight of Autumn after sacrificing his Gaddock Teeg so he could cast it.

I was able to do around 60 points of damage to the remaining two players in one turn of combat with a 10/10 sun titan, 8/8 charming prince, 7/6 stonecloaker, 6/6 faerie artisans, a 10/12 archangel and an 8/10 archangel as well as a spell queller. (Numbers approximate).

Meren of Clan Nel Toth has very little game against Faerie Artisans - I wasn't able to get a ton of value off him but I did cast his own putrefy off his Gonti, Lord of Luxury and draw several cards off random jank he recurred. He did give me a Gray Merchant of Asphodel that pumped my team with Archangel of Thune as well :P

It's crazy how Faerie Artisans acts very similarly to a Hushwing Gryff in some ways, really discouraging most ETB shenanigans. I have gone infinite with it and Eldrazi Displacer *twice* now (where someone had a Dockside Extortionist and another had a Great Whale.

Trying to grab a screenshot from the end of that game as it was very cool. Not the usual way I win games :) Zero sweepers, no countermagic except quellering a fleshbag, etc. Mirri guy's Dragonlord Dromoka did present some problems.

@shermanido37 I was dumb for ever cutting artisans, you right ;)

also Mystic Sanctuary for Ephemerate back on top was really good.
ephara-archangels.jpg
edit to add re: Cartographer's Hawk

This game Hawk did a little bit of work. I had kept a very slow hand with 3 lands sun titan faerie artisans whitemane lion and stonecloaker, gambling on hitting my 4th land drop.

I drew hawk on turn 3, played it, then was able to ramp into 5 lands on the turn I played Ephara on turn 4, which set me up for being able to play Faerie Artisans and protect it with Whitemane Lion if needed. Playing Artisans with protection on turn 5 is usually good enough to get there against creature decks.

From there the game snowballed out of control pretty quickly as I drew +2 or +3 cards a turn on them and was able to use Meren's putrefy to kill the opposing Archangel, which forced him to Witness and recast it...which was horrific sequencing since it got me a land drop off my copy of witness, and let me rebound Ephemerate to preserve my second copy of Archangel of Thune.

Suffice it to say, the +1 ramp off Hawk was very good in this game and I would have recast it had my hand been less stacked. Ultimately I slipped it under Chrome Mox again :P

Of note is that it was 1) much better than Kor Cartographer and quite a bit worse than Knight of the White Orchid as one of the opponents has ramped enough I could have easily gotten 2 lands off knight by blinking/bouncing it.

I then ramped +3 or so off sun titan which put the game way out of reach from a mana perspective.

------------------------------------------
Random other notes

And an unrelated comment, I am noticing Eidolon of Rhetoric languishing in my hand a lot these days, which I'm not sure exactly what is causing it. Might be my higher spell volume and might be that the competition isn't really warranting it.

I had it most of the game in this game and just never really wanted to cast it as my spells were so high impact -- it also shuts off protecting my stuff in my turn with Force of Will which I do not like.

Force of Will and Fierce Guardianship feel *amazing*. They really help my tempo when I can just tap out and keep a force up if needed.

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Post by shermanido37 » 1 year ago

Eidolon is a hatebear, and like any other hatebear it depends on the meta in which you play it in. However, since playing more than one spell per turn is something that usually indicates a player that is in good shape, it can fulfill a more general role of preventing big turns or consecutive big plays from opponents, slowing down the game and giving us an advantage at that.
If you said that the MTGO community prefers to play a big ETB creature on their turn instead of, say, drawing more cards and actually playing the game, then Eidolon's utility would definitely be reduced. It can't slow down the game to less than one spell per turn.
The beauty of playing around Eidolon is that we don't have to make explosive plays - it helps each small play that we make stick better. Then, when we are ready to blow everyone up, we bounce it to hand and go all out.
I guess you could slot it out, but I sincerely think it's one of the most universally applicable bears that will always favor us overall.


I still don't like the hawk. You're definitely right on it being worse than Knight of the White Orchid - blink is much more abusable than combat in our deck, and as long as there's a decent green deck on the table he will work out. And well, if he won't, then you're probably winning anyway.

Glad you're starting to grasp the power of Artisans!

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

shermanido37 wrote:
1 year ago
Eidolon is a hatebear, and like any other hatebear it depends on the meta

I still don't like the hawk. You're definitely right on it being worse than Knight of the White Orchid - blink is much more abusable than combat in our deck, and as long as there's a decent green deck on the table he will work out. And well, if he won't, then you're probably winning anyway.

Glad you're starting to grasp the power of Artisans!
I think I am going to try Mindcensor online instead.

If Hawk is ever better than Knight I will be very surprised. I'll probably switch it out and see if how Knight is. So many games I could just go off with it with Soulherder.

THE VERY NEXT GAME

Faerie Artisans is on board against a 3 player match of me v. Goreclaw vs. Volrath.

I have a very fast start with sol ring and turn 2 ephara turn 3 Faerie Artisans

I get my very own goreclaw, and am able to cast Thassa, Deep-Dwelling and suck up a tapped Myriad Landscape , blink my Artisans and keep Goreclaw.

Goreclaw plays Kogla, the Titan Ape targeting Artisans, my kogla kills his kogla and he scoops.

Next guy plays a Liliana and minuses on my Artisans (the 3 cmc one that makes dudes smaller).

I untap, play strip mine, strip mine him, play Sun Titan for 4 (thanks goreclaw) and he scoops to the second strip mine. I was going to Ghostly Flicker him, then blink it with Thassa, and leave him with 0 lands :P

This deck is brutal in 3 player games. And nobody can read Faerie Artisans.

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Post by Wallycaine » 1 year ago

I think the main time the hawk would be better than Knight is if the WW is an issue. That said, especially with the blink subtheme, you likely want the knight more.

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Post by WizardMN » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Spoiler
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THE VERY NEXT GAME

Faerie Artisans is on board against a 3 player match of me v. Goreclaw vs. Volrath.

I have a very fast start with sol ring and turn 2 ephara turn 3 Faerie Artisans

I get my very own goreclaw, and am able to cast Thassa, Deep-Dwelling and suck up a tapped Myriad Landscape , blink my Artisans and keep Goreclaw.

Goreclaw plays Kogla, the Titan Ape targeting Artisans, my kogla kills his kogla and he scoops.

Next guy plays a Liliana and minuses on my Artisans (the 3 cmc one that makes dudes smaller).

I untap, play strip mine, strip mine him, play Sun Titan for 4 (thanks goreclaw) and he scoops to the second strip mine. I was going to Ghostly Flicker him, then blink it with Thassa, and leave him with 0 lands :P

This deck is brutal in 3 player games. And nobody can read Faerie Artisans.
First, I agree that Artisans is just a beast. There would have to be a significant influx of cards for this list for me to ever think of cutting it.

Second, I was actually watching that game. I was going to join a game for Marchesa and I saw your name pop up and decided to just spectate. I actually had to go back into the chat to figure out why Goreclaw was all of a sudden gone :) And yeah, your start was ridiculous.

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