Will & Rowan Kenrith - Sparks of Ice and Fire (Superfriends)

dreamerzz
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Post by dreamerzz » 2 years ago

Nice deck, but I think you forgot a vital part. Nowhere in the primer does it actually say how you win. You put a lot of effort and focus into getting the first rowan emblem out and the next few, and you go into very meticulous detail describing how to go infinite with those emblems.

But you don't actually explain any clear wincon the deck has. Only a few of the planeswalkers have abilities that can deal damage to an opponent, but what if that planeswalker is in the graveyard or removed from the game?

I think Aetherflux Reservoir, banefire, or some sort of spell you can either pump your infinite mana into or storm infinitely (with cloudstone curio and infinite mana) would get you there. But as the deck stands right now, it is really awkward to pull out the win even after you start drawing tons of cards and gaining tons of mana. I would appreciate it if you could go more in depth there.

Thanks

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

dreamerzz wrote:
2 years ago
Nice deck, but I think you forgot a vital part. Nowhere in the primer does it actually say how you win. You put a lot of effort and focus into getting the first rowan emblem out and the next few, and you go into very meticulous detail describing how to go infinite with those emblems.

But you don't actually explain any clear wincon the deck has. Only a few of the planeswalkers have abilities that can deal damage to an opponent, but what if that planeswalker is in the graveyard or removed from the game?

I think Aetherflux Reservoir, banefire, or some sort of spell you can either pump your infinite mana into or storm infinitely (with cloudstone curio and infinite mana) would get you there. But as the deck stands right now, it is really awkward to pull out the win even after you start drawing tons of cards and gaining tons of mana. I would appreciate it if you could go more in depth there.
There's a little blurb about it among the interactions:
Once you draw enough of your deck, you can kill opponents with walker abilities and ultimate's with disruption backup.
With a bunch of Rowan emblems and probably infinite turns, quite a few of these planeswalkers will kill opponents with damage or mill.

"What if that planeswalker is in the graveyard or removed from the game?" is just a rephrasing of every deck's issue of "what if your wincon cards are inaccessible". Well then you're SOL, right? There's at least a half-dozen planeswalkers that could kill opponents, though, so there's redundancy (and one of them is Will).

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

dreamerzz wrote:
2 years ago
Nice deck, but I think you forgot a vital part. Nowhere in the primer does it actually say how you win. You put a lot of effort and focus into getting the first rowan emblem out and the next few, and you go into very meticulous detail describing how to go infinite with those emblems.

But you don't actually explain any clear wincon the deck has. Only a few of the planeswalkers have abilities that can deal damage to an opponent, but what if that planeswalker is in the graveyard or removed from the game?

I think Aetherflux Reservoir, banefire, or some sort of spell you can either pump your infinite mana into or storm infinitely (with cloudstone curio and infinite mana) would get you there. But as the deck stands right now, it is really awkward to pull out the win even after you start drawing tons of cards and gaining tons of mana. I would appreciate it if you could go more in depth there.

Thanks
Hi. I have sentences scattered through the thread alluding to actual ways to finish off opponents with combos, but I should really have a section "Winning the game" so that it's easier for readers to understand, so thanks for pointing this out.

The thing is that all of the planeswalkers actually have a way to kill opponents if necessary. Keep in mind that you can have infinite planeswalkers activations with Cloudstone Curio OR infinite turns OR The Chain Veil/Teferi, Temporal Archmage/Tezzeret the Seeker.
You can get infinite turns with Magosi, the Waterveil and Deserted Temple and then you can use Nexus of Fate to keep up the infinite turns after this. In fact you can draw your deck and just use the Nexus of Fate. In this instance you can just beat people to death with creatures after you bounce/kill all opponents creatures, so a Heart of Kiran is more than enough with infinite turns, but using Tezzeret the Seeker [-5] to make your artifacts creatures beatdowns is bonus style points.

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound allows you to mill opponents out.
Dack Fayden can also mill opponents out by targeting them.
Saheeli Rai reduces life totals to zero, I use this one a reasonable amount.
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame infinite tokens to attack with.
Chandra, Novice Pyromancer reduce opponents life totals to zero.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance will reduce life totals to zero, with the [+1] and the emblem. Remember once you have infinite you can just get infinite Chandra emblems to cast a single spell to deal the required damage for all opponents.
Ral Zarek can reduce opponents life totals to zero.
Koth of the Hammer reduce life totals to zero with emblem.
Tezzeret the Seeker creature beats.
Ugin, the Ineffable amass an army.

I've literally never not had options on how to kill opponents before once I have exacted my deck plans, it's always just a case of picking something for efficiency, style points or trying something new.

Beyondnoxx
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Post by Beyondnoxx » 2 years ago

while this might not be a deck for me, I just wanted to say how amazing the primer is build! very well done!
- Noxx
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Cards to sort: 80.000-85.000 :hmm:

dreamerzz
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Post by dreamerzz » 2 years ago

darrenhabib wrote:
2 years ago
dreamerzz wrote:
2 years ago
Nice deck, but I think you forgot a vital part. Nowhere in the primer does it actually say how you win. You put a lot of effort and focus into getting the first rowan emblem out and the next few, and you go into very meticulous detail describing how to go infinite with those emblems.

But you don't actually explain any clear wincon the deck has. Only a few of the planeswalkers have abilities that can deal damage to an opponent, but what if that planeswalker is in the graveyard or removed from the game?

I think Aetherflux Reservoir, banefire, or some sort of spell you can either pump your infinite mana into or storm infinitely (with cloudstone curio and infinite mana) would get you there. But as the deck stands right now, it is really awkward to pull out the win even after you start drawing tons of cards and gaining tons of mana. I would appreciate it if you could go more in depth there.

Thanks
Hi. I have sentences scattered through the thread alluding to actual ways to finish off opponents with combos, but I should really have a section "Winning the game" so that it's easier for readers to understand, so thanks for pointing this out.

The thing is that all of the planeswalkers actually have a way to kill opponents if necessary. Keep in mind that you can have infinite planeswalkers activations with Cloudstone Curio OR infinite turns OR The Chain Veil/Teferi, Temporal Archmage/Tezzeret the Seeker.
You can get infinite turns with Magosi, the Waterveil and Deserted Temple and then you can use Nexus of Fate to keep up the infinite turns after this. In fact you can draw your deck and just use the Nexus of Fate. In this instance you can just beat people to death with creatures after you bounce/kill all opponents creatures, so a Heart of Kiran is more than enough with infinite turns, but using Tezzeret the Seeker [-5] to make your artifacts creatures beatdowns is bonus style points.

Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound allows you to mill opponents out.
Dack Fayden can also mill opponents out by targeting them.
Saheeli Rai reduces life totals to zero, I use this one a reasonable amount.
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame infinite tokens to attack with.
Chandra, Novice Pyromancer reduce opponents life totals to zero.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance will reduce life totals to zero, with the [+1] and the emblem. Remember once you have infinite you can just get infinite Chandra emblems to cast a single spell to deal the required damage for all opponents.
Ral Zarek can reduce opponents life totals to zero.
Koth of the Hammer reduce life totals to zero with emblem.
Tezzeret the Seeker creature beats.
Ugin, the Ineffable amass an army.

I've literally never not had options on how to kill opponents before once I have exacted my deck plans, it's always just a case of picking something for efficiency, style points or trying something new.
This is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you so much. And it looks like now you can straight up copy that response into a "winning the game" section for people who might not see it as easily like myself :p

For some context I used mtgpress and proxied out this deck and played in a few 4 player pods. won both times I tried the deck. However these wins were me frantically drawing cards and acquiring infinite mana and reading my cards thinking .. ok ok I got infinite mana and card draw now wheres the banefire haha, and my opponents getting frustrated haha. It seriously elevates these commanders up and is extremely fun. I like to imagine I am a thanos collecting "infinity stones" aka rowan ultimates, and I love the way this deck plays.

Don't ever stop brewing up decks, I love what you are putting out.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

Beyondnoxx wrote:
2 years ago
while this might not be a deck for me, I just wanted to say how amazing the primer is build! very well done!
Thanks for the kind compliment!

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

dreamerzz wrote:
2 years ago
This is exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you so much. And it looks like now you can straight up copy that response into a "winning the game" section for people who might not see it as easily like myself :p

For some context I used mtgpress and proxied out this deck and played in a few 4 player pods. won both times I tried the deck. However these wins were me frantically drawing cards and acquiring infinite mana and reading my cards thinking .. ok ok I got infinite mana and card draw now wheres the banefire haha, and my opponents getting frustrated haha. It seriously elevates these commanders up and is extremely fun. I like to imagine I am a thanos collecting "infinity stones" aka rowan ultimates, and I love the way this deck plays.

Don't ever stop brewing up decks, I love what you are putting out.
I've done exactly that, pasted into a section for winning the game, the only thing I've added is ...
Will Kenrith can mill opponents out by targeting them with draw or by making infinite emblems and casting Fiery Confluence dealing damage to opponents.

If you can just demonstrate an infinite loop then most opponents will just ask you "how do you win?" and you can just pick several go to planeswalkers for the quickest wins. Unfortunately I play a lot online, so have to literally go through the motions, which is why I normally go for the ones that say damage to opponents to make the process shorter. But most people once you demonstrate an infinite loop will concede.

I'm just watching Avengers Endgame at the moment, half way through :P I like the infinity stones analogy, I've built a few Vorthos decks in my day, and it helps to really lay out strategies when you can relate it to something.

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xeroxedfool
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Post by xeroxedfool » 2 years ago

You have Paradox Engine in the opening hands section.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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Post by Ertai Planeswalker » 2 years ago

Have you considered Clockspinning for this deck? If you can -2 Will, you can spend 1U to add a loyalty counter to any PW. That seems really good, also a good alternative for the extra turn spells (my group does not appreciate them very much).

Also, i think Tamiyo, the Moon Sage deserves a spot in the lineup. That emblem combined with the amount of control spells you run can singlehandedly take over the game providing you with yet another path to victory.

Third, why don't you run Vedalken Orrery and/or Leyline of Anticipation? Flashing in a walker and untapping with it saves you one round of turns protecting it, and with Will already on the field could allow you to immediately Clockspin it to it's ultimate. Or just follow it up with a Deepglow Skate for the same effect.

Kudos on the deck though, you got me wondering if i'd build it myself, which not a lot of primers do.

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

xeroxedfool wrote:
2 years ago
You have Paradox Engine in the opening hands section.
Thanks, I had a few references to it even though I'd taken it out, may it R.I.P.

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Post by xeroxedfool » 2 years ago

I rebuilt this deck again. I haven't busted it out in the local meta yet but I'll let you know how it goes when I do.
They're both Griffith, get it?

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

Ertai Planeswalker wrote:
2 years ago
Have you considered Clockspinning for this deck? If you can -2 Will, you can spend 1U to add a loyalty counter to any PW. That seems really good, also a good alternative for the extra turn spells (my group does not appreciate them very much).

Also, i think Tamiyo, the Moon Sage deserves a spot in the lineup. That emblem combined with the amount of control spells you run can singlehandedly take over the game providing you with yet another path to victory.

Third, why don't you run Vedalken Orrery and/or Leyline of Anticipation? Flashing in a walker and untapping with it saves you one round of turns protecting it, and with Will already on the field could allow you to immediately Clockspin it to it's ultimate. Or just follow it up with a Deepglow Skate for the same effect.

Kudos on the deck though, you got me wondering if i'd build it myself, which not a lot of primers do.
Actually I've never really thought about Clockspinning seriously, but I can see lining up a Rowan emblem with it. It's possible to do a Rings of Brighthearth on Will Kenrith, and then the Clockspinning will only cost u with the buyback. So that's 2 for the Rings, then Rowan would cost rr (costs 4 less with Will) and then you'd only need four blue to get her to 8 loyalty, which is really feasible. I'll definitely give it a spin...I'm so lame with puns.

Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is pretty near and dear to my heart, I've created a few emblems with it in Doubling Season decks.
I'll make it clear that I definitely sacrifice some individual power in the deck for a few "fun" themes. Like the deck would realistically be stronger with Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Jace, Architect of Thought for example rather than say Chandra, Novice Pyromancer. But I've presented the deck a certain way, so like to keep to the theme.
But you could play any of those walkers and feel good about it. But then it just becomes a resource management between finding more "windows of opportunity" by trading in walkers for cards that allow you to play walkers.

I've never been too happy about playing Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation except in very dedicated untap during opponents turns decks. Being able to wait until end of opponents turn to play out your walkers is very good, but you still need a way to deal with opponents creatures in hand, and I've confugured it to have a lot of instant speed removal, so I think they would take up precious slots at the moment. I did try Emergence Zone but was never willing to give up the land, and needing "8" mana to cast Will for example did mean that I just preferred to play an Island.

Unfortunately the extra turn cards are really pretty key to winning a lot of games. I'd say I've won more games from a well timed extra turn card than any other play. I understand that your play group doesn't like them, but you'd have to run a lot more removal and maybe this is where a Leyline of Anticipation and Emergence Zone can become your "extra turn" cards.

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Post by grimoiredark » 2 years ago

Hey there!!! Good to see you back to making awesome decks (and breathing life into older ones). Re-reading this, I can see the new face of the Jeskai commander running a similar version of this deck just with more emphasis on the graveyard. Going to give it a whirl with what cards I have! Keep up the good work!

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Post by NotARooster » 2 years ago

Could you explain how you would get infinite turns with deserted temple and magosi? I'm not really understanding how it works

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

NotARooster wrote:
2 years ago
Could you explain how you would get infinite turns with deserted temple and magosi? I'm not really understanding how it works
OK it's a VERY specific set of sequences. Not easy to work out, so understandable the confusion.

Firstly you need to have at least one Rowan emblem already AND setup Rowan again for another [-8] to get an emblem. So it has to be done in a turn where you can do this. Very important.

1.) You already have a Rowan emblem.

2.) You are able to use Rowan [-8] in the turn you want to go infinite.

3.) Before you activate Rowan [-8] to get the emblem, you first activate activate Magosi, the Waterveil to skip a turn. It's now tapped.

4.) Because you have a Rowan emblem already, the Magosi, the Waterveil skip turn trigger will happen twice. So you've got two turns skipped stacked up.

5.) Once this is done, then you can ultimate Rowan [-8] to get two more emblems. You will now have 3 Rowan emblems.

6.) Use Deserted Temple to untap Magosi, the Waterveil.

7.) Now you activate Magosi, the Waterveil to get an extra turn (it returns to hand immediately), but because of the 3 Rowan emblems you'll get 3 additional triggers, which means that you get four extra turns stacked up. But you've already got two turns skipped so that means you'll only get two extra turns all up.

But this can still be infinite as during this and those additional turns you can cast out Rowan again and build her up to more ultimate emblems. You have infinite mana with Deserted Temple untapping lands and itself (with Rowan emblems), so this is not a problem casting her out immediately.

You repeat the pattern of going back to step one, you'll be stacking up multiples of skip turns, but as long as you do that before you get more Rowan emblems to get more extra turns. It'll always mean you have more extra turns than skipped turns.

Hope that makes it more clearer?

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Post by NotARooster » 2 years ago

yeah i get it now, thanks for clearing that up. youve come up with an awesome deck here, im hoping to pick up some of the more expensive cards and try it out soon!


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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

jr2694 wrote:
2 years ago
https://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content ... png?x96163

Does this card make the cut?
I'm designing a Modern deck that has The Royal Scions as a really great addition. But if I'm being honest if it literally wasn't the fact that it is Rowan and Will, I'd probably wouldn't include it in the commander deck based on it's abilities. The thing is that you'll never use the +2/0 trample first strike ability. Then the ultimate is very average in comparison to what others can do. But it is a 3 mana walker and you can get card filtering going with them at least earlier than most.
But if you compare competition at the 3 drop walker, Narset, Parter of Veils and Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer are probably better for the deck.
Narset digs you 4 cards deep on the first go, where The Royal Scions can only filter 1 card at a time. Then it has a static ability which is really relevant to games.
Mu Yanling, Sky Dancer also look good with the ability to provide some self protection. The ultimate also provides inevitability as Islands are plentiful in the deck.
But The Royal Scions does start on 5 loyalty so can survive getting hit a few times maybe. Plus you know it's the Kenrith twins :P

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Post by Kerrus » 2 years ago

Hey question, the deck only has 97 cards, not counting the two commanders. So it's short a card. Is this intentional, or an oversight?

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darrenhabib
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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

Kerrus wrote:
2 years ago
Hey question, the deck only has 97 cards, not counting the two commanders. So it's short a card. Is this intentional, or an oversight?
It's a hundred cards, I just accidentally had the Artifacts mana count on 11 instead of 12.

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Post by VirgilKaineisthename » 2 years ago

Yesterday I made a stupid mistake - at least I think I made it. I had control over the game. Will Kenrith had two emblems out. I played a Pact of Negation to counter Lord Windgrace. I didn' notice that the counter was copied twice. During my upkeep I payed UU3. My friends started laughing, saying I had to pay the cost at least two times: counter three, countered counter two. I could not pay the cost so I'm dead. I didn't notice that the emblem-ability to copy a spell is not optional. So if I'm obliged to copy the Pact twice, I have to pay the cost at my upkeep two, or three times. Is this correct ?

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lyonhaert
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Post by lyonhaert » 2 years ago

VirgilKaineisthename wrote:
2 years ago
Yesterday I made a stupid mistake - at least I think I made it. I had control over the game. Will Kenrith had two emblems out. I played a Pact of Negation to counter Lord Windgrace. I didn' notice that the counter was copied twice. During my upkeep I payed UU3. My friends started laughing, saying I had to pay the cost at least two times: counter three, countered counter two. I could not pay the cost so I'm dead. I didn't notice that the emblem-ability to copy a spell is not optional. So if I'm obliged to copy the Pact twice, I have to pay the cost at my upkeep two, or three times. Is this correct ?
You'd have to pay 3uu for each one that resolved, yes. But the easy way around that is to just have them all target Lord Windgrace. The first one to resolve will counter him and the other two will fizzle because the target no longer exists.

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Post by VirgilKaineisthename » 2 years ago

Yes, got it. Thx.

Also Thx to Nylon in the ruling page who pointed out that:

He can make all the copies target the same spell. One of the copies will resolve first, countering the spell and creating the lose the game trigger. Then the other copy will fail to resolve because its only target is no longer on the stack, having been countered by the first copy. Then the original Pact will also fail to resolve for the same reason, so in the end you will only have to pay once.

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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

With Throne of Eldraine release this week it's simply impossible for me not to include The Royal Scions for the Vorthos flavor. Are they very good for the deck? Well they are good enough, not amazing, but not bad either. The "[+1]: Target creature gets +2/+0 and gains first strike and trample until end of turn." is simply never going to be used, but that doesn't matter when you already have another [+1] ability that you will use.

Also adding Arcane Signet..durr. With Paradox Engine gone I've found Firemind Vessel and Coveted Jewel are not as good anymore, so I'm replacing these.


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Post by VirgilKaineisthename » 2 years ago

The deck is very strong in a 3-player game. It's much more difficult to win in a 4 or 5-player game. Which changes could be made for this ? Any suggestions ?

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