The CCL Discussion Thread

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

[mention]Icarii[/mention] [mention]netn10[/mention] CCL crits are due today

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Post by netn10 » 1 year ago

Thanks for the heads up, I will write my crits now.

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

I feel like nobody has understood he real intent behind my card. I saw nobody mentioning it. It's a top-down card representing Pendelhaven plus Molimo. I took the ability of Molimo, Maro Sorcerer at the same mana cost, which is a lot, so I thought it was safe enough to extend to all creatures, to represent him taking residence in Pendelhaven, like the story says. Yes, it's very powerful, but it requires essentially eight mana, and eight-mana effects are supposed to be powerful. The first ability is not tied to 1/1s because I intentionally gave it a cost, that's not there in the original Pendelhaven, and this is another thing I saw nobody mentioning. In short, I feel like I made a series of intentional design choices not that others didn't like, that wouldn't be a problem, but that others didn't even see! I specifically wrote the flavor text to make people understand the last ability was a reference to Molimo! I put a link to the Wiki page for the same reason:
from Pendelhaven's Wiki page wrote: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Pendelhaven

Now, Molimo has taken up residence in the great tree, restoring its vigor and focusing all his power on rejuvenating the woods of Llanowar.
It feels like I could have just not written it, as nobody got it. Maybe I should have really posted the other card that tempted me, the Serra's Paradise with constellation. I have a revised version of that card and I'll post it one of these days in the DCC. No problem being eliminated, but being eliminated because the others didn't see the intended reference burns a lot. Well, good luck to the finalists. It's already gone better than my average (make the top 8 and then get eliminated there). I keep having trouble wherever a public choice is involved...


I've also seen another problem, much more serious, with the participation to the contests. All three main contests have a very low participation in January, and I can't understand why. I hope it's just a temporary fluctuation, but I admit I'm afraid it could be a signal, I don't know of what though, and I don't understand the message either. I thought the festivities would have helped participation with people being less busy from work, but instead it looks like it's the contrary, and I can't understand why.
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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

I'm afraid average Magic player doesn't know the lore as deeply and only a few would look up the characters referenced by the flavor text to understand it better. To me, I wasn't even aware Molimo is a character in Magic multiverse. That said, I think I could write more about the cards I crits, but you actually know how much free time I have these days...

I wouldn't be too worried about lower Jan participation, while it is the month of vacations etc. February will be better.

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Post by Icarii » 1 year ago

I felt my entry certainly had a wide range of critiques that didnt agree with each other, and also made some claims that weren't accurate, but I'm not worried about it. It was a design that I think is really difficult to mentally playtest, but I think it would be a great place to start playtesting. It's non-obvious where exactly it falls balance wise and what it does is interesting. Besides, as bravelion83 likes to note and others on this forums porbably have seen, I don't like to play safe with designs. These are contests after all, and I've always felt its important to showcase uniqueness.

I understood your reference to Molimo, but honestly, didnt give myself much time to critique in detail. While the reference to him is smart, the power level of the card felt way out of bounds and the most important point. I couldn't see it printed as is.

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
I wasn't even aware Molimo is a character in Magic multiverse.
He was referenced multiple times in-story in Dominaria not even 2 years ago. He was the one giving the new hull seed for Jhoira's reconstruction of the Weatherlight. It's not like I've taken an obscure character from the early era of Magic.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
you actually know how much free time I have these days...
Don't worry, I know it very well. As you know how much free time I do instead. In this moment, I'm writing here because literally otherwise I wouldn't have anything else to do.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
I wouldn't be too worried about lower Jan participation, while it is the month of vacations etc. February will be better.
I thought vacations would have helped participation. Let's hope February is better. In the MCC, I will probably have to leave the round open to get the minimum number of contestants to have three brackets of five. The bare minimum.
Icarii wrote:
1 year ago
I understood your reference to Molimo
Nobody mentioning it made me feel like nobody had gotten it. My remark is not about the power level, that's high, we agree. It's that I've made research, and a fully thought out design only for nobody to notice it. You either did it wrong, and it's not clear enough, or there must be some kind of problem. This is why I always like to mention everything I can think of as a judge in the MCC. Yes, the judgment will get longer, but I won't give the impression that I haven't thought about it at all.

Thanks for the replies and again best of luck to the finalists.
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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Icarii
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Post by Icarii » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Way overpowered, it's a strictly better Furious Reprisal AND a Precision Bolt AND an effect on par with Wrap in Flames, trading cowardice for any targets. Arc Lightning is the right power level.
If by WAY overpowered, you mean it should cost 1 more, I can agree with that. Though our definition of WAY is quite different. However, Precision Bolt is a weak card, Furious Reprisal isn't great either, and Wrap in Flames is limited fodder with niche sideboard applications at best. As points of power level comparison not a strong argument outside of Arc Lightning. Cone of Flame and Pyrotechnics show my design is too weak for 5 mana. 4 would be safe, 3 would be pushed and probably constructed playable but not format warping.

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Post by Icarii » 1 year ago

So it would cost 4, which is not a serious underestimation.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Icarii wrote:
1 year ago
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Way overpowered, it's a strictly better Furious Reprisal AND a Precision Bolt AND an effect on par with Wrap in Flames, trading cowardice for any targets. Arc Lightning is the right power level.
If by WAY overpowered, you mean it should cost 1 more, I can agree with that. Though our definition of WAY is quite different. However, Precision Bolt is a weak card, Furious Reprisal isn't great either, and Wrap in Flames is limited fodder with niche sideboard applications at best. As points of power level comparison not a strong argument outside of Arc Lightning. Cone of Flame and Pyrotechnics show my design is too weak for 5 mana. 4 would be safe, 3 would be pushed and probably constructed playable but not format warping.
Okay, I've recalculated the damage. Arc Lightning is indeed Arc Trail +Precision Bolt and an effect on par with Wrap in Flames. Your card is just better on the Arc Trail mode. Not as overpowered as I first saw it. Sorry. Changing crits.

BTW, going from 4 to 3 mana is big. Imagine Bloodbraid Elf's effect (including cascade as in 4cmc) at 3 mana, playable on turn 2.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Icarii's round 1 card also hits creatures only. For as bad as a card like Precision Bolt is - just compared to a card that we can reasonably expect to be in recent Standards like Lightning Strike, not even compared to a clearly extremely powerful burn spell - it can still take out planeswalkers and hit life totals. There's not even a strict power comparison here because the cards do different things.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

You're right. I was sure it hit all targets. Corrected. The card is top3 material.

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Ink-Treader wrote:
1 year ago
The high bestow cost hurts a bit, but it's probably justified. Maybe it could be one less?
Maybe. Just keep into account that it's a +2/+2 and deathtouch granting enchantment that generates 4 power when the enchanted creature leaves the battlefield. (2 from itself plus 2 from the token).
I also wonder if Aura moving shenanigans can trigger that ability.
As written, yes. I wish there were an elegant wording to avoid infinite combos, but I haven't been able to find it.
void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I like the flavor text of this card a lot.
Me too. It was a sudden inspiration, but as soon as I thought it, I immediately knew I had it.
There's a couple of slight flavor problems - it really feels like the tokens should be enchantment creatures
This was my bad. The tokens should also totally be enchantment creatures. If I could redesign that card now, they would absolutely be.
and Pharika is really associated with cold-blooded creatures instead of things like Wolves - but hey, maybe this is from a timeline where Garruk deposed her and became the new God?
Maybe. But you want to know the truth? I just didn't even think of Pharika as I designed this. I just had a cool mechanical idea for a bestow card in those colors and I thought about executing it as best as I could. I didn't think about the flavor implications of bestow. But now that you mention it, yes, this is not so much a Pharika-associated card.
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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Well played [mention]netn10[/mention] :)

Can I get some feedback on Yawgmoth and Gix?

Yawgmoth, Vile God BBBBBB
Legendary Enchantment Creature — God (M)
Flying, indestructible
Yawgmoth isn't a creature unless you sacrificed a creature this turn.
XXB, Sacrifice X other creatures: Choose one —
• Each opponent loses twice X life.
• Destroy X target creatures.
• Return half X, rounded down, target creature cards from your graveyard to the battlefield.
5/8

Gix, Temporal Terror {up}{up}{bp}{bp}
Legendary Artifact Creature — Horror (M)
You may only cast Gix, Temporal Terror from your library while searching it.
Flying, trample, haste
Whenever Gix, Temporal Terror deals combat damage, put Gix and each permanent dealt damage this way on the bottom of their owners' libraries.
Believed to have been torn apart by his own spell - he has, but he has not.
4/4

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Well played indeed as [mention]netn10[/mention] and [mention]Ryder[/mention] finish in a TIE and are the co-winners of December's CCL!
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Post by Icarii » 1 year ago

Gateways7 wrote:
1 year ago
Icarii - Downside mechanics are never fun, so I don't really like Diffusion. As for the card itself, it's either a worse Precision Bolt or a worse Chandra's Pyrohelix, both of which are… really bad cards (assuming I'm understanding Diffusion correctly.)
You don't.

You can do 3 damage to one creature, 2 damage to two creatures, or 1 damage to three creatures. This makes it much more flexible in dealing with creatures than precision bolt or chandras pyrohelix, at the cost of not targeting players or planeswalkers.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

For everyone who thinks my Round 1 burn spell is powerful, Flame Slash exists ;)

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Post by Gateways7 » 1 year ago

Icarii wrote:
1 year ago
Gateways7 wrote:
1 year ago
Icarii - Downside mechanics are never fun, so I don't really like Diffusion. As for the card itself, it's either a worse Precision Bolt or a worse Chandra's Pyrohelix, both of which are… really bad cards (assuming I'm understanding Diffusion correctly.)
You don't.

You can do 3 damage to one creature, 2 damage to two creatures, or 1 damage to three creatures. This makes it much more flexible in dealing with creatures than precision bolt or chandras pyrohelix, at the cost of not targeting players or planeswalkers.
Then the fact that it's confusingly worded is another negative, imo.

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Post by barbecube » 1 year ago

You know, I'm not so sure about design challenges that crucially hinge on formats that participants in the challenge might not necessarily like or play.
formerly willows

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

I mean, people in R&D presumably do it all the time -- Maro hates commander but I can't imagine he refuses to design cards for it. Besides, we always expect people to be able to balance cards for limited/standard even though they might not actually play it. For the record, I'm not at all a commander person -- I've never played it -- but I still try to make cards that appeal to those players, both because I think it helps me push myself as a designer and because I generally don't know what formats the people judging my cards play.

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

I hope this doesn't originate from my initial comment in my submission. I don't like and don't play Commander, but that doesn't mean I won't try to design for it. It was just a note to tell people: look, this might not be my best work and here's why. I will absolutely design cards for Commander, I'm just not sure of how successful I will be. That was all. I was in no way complaining about the challenge, I want this to be absolutely clear.
You know what? Seeing how the design deadline hasn't passed yet (it's the 21st, today's the 20th), I'll just edit my submission post to remove that line. It was not my intention to cause this discussion here.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

The current round has one of the best challenges in a long time. I feel pushed hard as a designer, it forced me to find new design spaces. I really enjoyed it.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I just pointed out an accidental real card near-duplication in the DCC discussion thread but I was going through archived threads a while ago and realized this -
Subject16 wrote:
2 years ago
All or Nothing 4RR
Sorcery (Rare)
As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice all creatures you control.
All or Nothing deals X damage to any target, where X is the total power of creatures sacrificed this way.
"If this is the end, then we'll end it together!"
-Captain Lannery Storm
From November's CCL round 1 is Soulblast but no one pointed it out.
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Post by Subject16 » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I just pointed out an accidental real card near-duplication in the DCC discussion thread but I was going through archived threads a while ago and realized this -
Subject16 wrote:
2 years ago
All or Nothing 4RR
Sorcery (Rare)
As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice all creatures you control.
All or Nothing deals X damage to any target, where X is the total power of creatures sacrificed this way.
"If this is the end, then we'll end it together!"
-Captain Lannery Storm
From November's CCL round 1 is Soulblast but no one pointed it out.
Holy moly, I had never seen this card before. I always sort of assumed Mass Fling wasn't really a card, but there it is.

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Post by Ink-Treader » 1 year ago

Subject16 wrote:
1 year ago
void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I just pointed out an accidental real card near-duplication in the DCC discussion thread but I was going through archived threads a while ago and realized this -
Subject16 wrote:
2 years ago
All or Nothing 4RR
Sorcery (Rare)
As an additional cost to cast this spell, sacrifice all creatures you control.
All or Nothing deals X damage to any target, where X is the total power of creatures sacrificed this way.
"If this is the end, then we'll end it together!"
-Captain Lannery Storm
From November's CCL round 1 is Soulblast but no one pointed it out.
Holy moly, I had never seen this card before. I always sort of assumed Mass Fling wasn't really a card, but there it is.
I noticed, but since I wasn't going to be judging him, I figured it'd be polite to say nothing. And amusing to see no one catch it.

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