The MCC Discussion Thread

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

Yes, I'm afraid I'm going to need until tomorrow to judge the final round as well, my apologies.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

Ok, let's just say the 24-hour extension for the judging deadline has been granted. If you're both able to make it within tomorrow night, no problem.
SecretInfiltrator wrote:
2 years ago
May I request that new threads for the MCC are always announced with a post in here? It's not easy to tell between multiple rounds of MCC (at times for two months in parallel), DCC and CCL etc. whether a new thread has gone up at all.
Sorry, I missed this. I personally usually do already. I'll add this to the list of things to add/fix in the guidelines when I eventually update them (yes, it's an actual txt file, not just in my head). I'll put it in as an advised thing for the host to do each round. I don't want to make it explicitly mandatory, but I do want to gently push hosts towards doing it more.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
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Rithaniel
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Post by Rithaniel » 2 years ago

Round 4 Judgings complete

Numbers were calculated using the hypergeometric function (with heavy approximation). Specific calculator is found here.
And a Few Quotes
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"Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."
― Paul Erdős

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”
― Stephen Jay Gould

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

August is over. Congratulation to SecretInfiltrator for being the first MCC winner ever on MTGNexus!
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

We will need one more judge for September, but most likely not any more than that - judge signups are here if you are interested, and we welcome first-time judges as well as experienced ones.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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SecretInfiltrator
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Post by SecretInfiltrator » 2 years ago

Yay! Thanks for the contest. That final round was a nail biter. It's great to see the work I put into the wording paid off. : )

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Post by slimytrout » 2 years ago

My scores are posted. Very close in the middle of the standings, but that's the way things broke down. This is my first time judging, so I *might* be more willing to concede mistakes/make revisions than I will be when I've gotten my sea legs, but only if you make your case politely. (Also, if your strategy is going to be to go after someone else's card, either do so *extremely* carefully or just send me a PM.)

On a different note, this was a great illustration of how both artifact sets and life-as-a-cost are hard to balance (only 2 perfect scores in that area out of 7 contestants).

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

My own judgments are also in.
slimytrout wrote:
2 years ago
This is my first time judging
Should you ever need any kind of help, advice, or whatever, I'm here.
(Also, if your strategy is going to be to go after someone else's card, either do so *extremely* carefully or just send me a PM.)
This is already in the guidelines, but I guess reminding everybody here too can't hurt.
On a different note, this was a great illustration of how both artifact sets and life-as-a-cost are hard to balance (only 2 perfect scores in that area out of 7 contestants).
Agree. For the record, that's 2 out of 8 for me. Technically even slightly less than you.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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Dragonlover
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Post by Dragonlover » 2 years ago

I actually have questions/thoughts regarding the rubric itself, since I'm obviously new to this and wasn't around when it was being developed.

Why is the Appeal category there? Very few real Magic cards hit all three psychographics, never mind whatever our amateur brains throw out.

I find it interesting that we're scored on all the aspects of the card when for real cards different departments handle different things as they need different skill sets. Maro himself has said on multiple occasions that balance isn't his problem beyond an approximation and development (or is it Play Design now?) handle the fine tuning. I'm assuming this cane about because different judges would use different criteria to judge and it ended up being a bit potluck as to who you got?

I feel I should add the caveat that I am in no way salty about my score, the card wasn't one of my best designs but it was the only one my brain could actually refine into a Magic card for the challenge. Roll on next month!

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Post by Rithaniel » 2 years ago

Well, bravelion would be the person to directly answer questions about the rubric (and maybe I shouldn't be answering at all because I'm not a judge this round), but in my mind, the appeal category is about how the card would appeal to the magic community as a whole. After all, even if very few single players hit all three demographics, themselves, most players hit at least one. So, if you appeal to all three, you will have some appeal to most players. It's looking for three checkboxes: Is the card impressive? Does the card potentially interact with other cards well? Is the card competitively viable?

Also, there are cards that have been printed which don't check one or more of these boxes. They would get marked down in that category just like any other. So, clearly, a card doesn't need to perfectly hit all three demographics in order to be a viable card, but in a competition, you need to rank designs.
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"Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."
― Paul Erdős

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”
― Stephen Jay Gould

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Post by slimytrout » 2 years ago

This is already in the guidelines, but I guess reminding everybody here too can't hurt.
Yeah, I hate to break it to you, but until I read the full document a week ago to start judging, the only part of the guidelines I'd looked at was the formatting part...

[mention]Dragonlover[/mention]: The idea behind the appeal score, I imagine (I am also not bravelion), is that we want to be making cards that people actually would like to play. Especially in these early rounds when the challenges are pretty straightforward, it wouldn't be that hard to make an elegant, balanced card that's at least somewhat unique, but which no one is actually interested in playing outside of limited filler. The psychographics are mostly a useful benchmark to make it easier to step out of our own preferences and evaluate the card more objectively (as they are for R&D as well).

I try to think of the balance score in two ways:
1) Did you understand what the power level of this card was, and cost it appropriately? While design doesn't do the final costing, they do try to get a fairly flat power level of cards so that playtesters aren't playing unfun cards just so they can win. That's the basic job here: try to design the card so that it's powerful enough to see play but not so powerful as to be busted, which is a pretty wide margin.
2) Is the card balance-able? As we discovered this round, some cards (especially artifacts and ones with life-as-a-cost) are inherently unbalanced, in that it's very hard to cost them so that they're not too narrow to be playable or too busted to be printed. Noncreature artifacts suffer this worse than most because they don't have any stats to rescue them from unplayability.

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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

Unfortunately due to a personal emergency, I will have to delay my judgments and the next round of the MCC until tomorrow. Everything should be fine by then, however. My apologies for this delay, especially in the first round of the month.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Post by Rithaniel » 2 years ago

Alright, so questions for subchallenge 2:

It specifies that the card should be able to "place counters without proliferating." Would something like this satisfy the challenge:

George, Master of Examples
Creature - Example
: Put an example counter on each Example. Proliferate.
1/1

Or does the word "without" imply that it needs to be able to place counters without necessarily also proliferating, like so:

George, Master of Examples
Creature - Example
: Put an example counter on each Example.
: Proliferate.
1/1

Also, would a card that gives counters to players satisfy this subchallenge?
And a Few Quotes
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"Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."
― Paul Erdős

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”
― Stephen Jay Gould

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

Both would satisfy the challenge, the idea is "does the card have a means to place counters on anything (permanent, object not on the battlefield, player) OTHER than proliferate"?
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Post by Henlock » 2 years ago

slimytrout wrote:
2 years ago

Subchallenges 1.5/2 – Hmmm, so technically your card doesn't put counters on anything – rather, it gives them an ability that puts counters on them. That's very nitpicky, since your card definitely meets the spirit of the challenge, but that's the way it's worded.
TOTAL 22/25
[mention]slimytrout[/mention] , wouldn't this count as "a means to place counters on anything"?

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Post by slimytrout » 2 years ago

You're welcome to take it up with void_nothing if you'd like, and I will happily defer to their judgement, but I would argue that your card isn't placing counters on anything; rather, it's giving the card an ability so that it places counters on itself. Here's the relevant material:

Subchallenge: "Your card can place counters on things..."
From the guidelines: "If only the letter of the Subchallenge is met but not the spirit, or vice versa, a 0.5 points deduction can be applied here."

It seems to me that your card clearly meets the spirit of the subchallenge, but (in my opinion) not the letter. Hence the deduction.

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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

I feel like playing with fire intervening in this, but I do want to mention one thing while trying to stay as neutral as possible, as it's not my own bracket nor I am the host this month. It's true that Scarred Alpha doesn't give out +1/+1 counters as a direct effect itself but it only grants an ability that can do so eventually. What I'd like to point out is that it's a Wolf itself, and it doesn't say "other", so it also gives undying to itself. Just food for thought.

As the author of the guidelines, there's absolutely nothing wrong with what the judge chose to do here. The key word in the quoted sentence is intended to be "can". The guidelines intentionally do not say "must", to leave the judges the freedom to judge by themselves whether the letter and/or spirit of the challenge is met in each specific case. Situations like this are why we have a Subchallenge section in the first place.

And with this, I'll shut up. Maybe I've already said too much.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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Post by slimytrout » 2 years ago

Oh man, bravelion found the line. It does technically place counters on itself, and therefore very narrowly meets the letter of the subchallenge, contrary to my previous judgement. Adding half a point back in my judgement.

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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

It wasn't my intention to make you change your scores or your judgment in any way. That's still your own call to do. I just felt like pointing out something that I thought might have been overlooked. Glad to help.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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Post by slimytrout » 2 years ago

Yeah, I totally understand. I wasn't actually complaining, rather trying to express that you had seen something I had missed. Had I seen it originally, or had Henlock pointed it out, I wouldn't have deducted the points. So certainly not fair of me to withhold it just because it was a fellow judge who caught it.

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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

The time has come again to call for an MCC host for next month. If you've never done this before, you still shouldn't hesitate to apply - I'd be happy to walk you through it.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Post by Rithaniel » 2 years ago

I could potentially run the October MCC. I have a couple ideas for themes for the month. Though, college is still kicking me around, currently, so if anyone else would like to host it, I'll happily step aside.
And a Few Quotes
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"Why are numbers beautiful? It's like asking why is Beethoven's Ninth Symphony beautiful. If you don't see why, someone can't tell you. I know numbers are beautiful. If they aren't beautiful, nothing is."
― Paul Erdős

“I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.”
― Stephen Jay Gould

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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

Well if you can't commit the time this month, don't feel obligated to try to step up. Someone else can do it this time, and you can give it a shot in a later month when you're on break.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

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Post by bravelion83 » 2 years ago

I've just done it last month, so it's probably better if somebody else does it before I do it again, but if there are no other takers, I'm totally available to make an Eldraine themed month for October.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on September 28th 2021)
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
My projects (Updated on June 14th 2019)
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All on MTGSalvation for now. See this Blogger post.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ.

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Post by void_nothing » 2 years ago

Of course in the absence of anyone else being able to do it I will step up.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

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