The MCC Discussion Thread

slimytrout
Posts: 1197
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Just bumping this because it seems like maybe it got missed and it's pretty important for completing that subchallenge.
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
Multiple clarification questions on that subchallenge:

1) Did you mean to allow words within that card's name? I.e., "Frustration Bolt deals 3 damage to any target" seems like it would currently qualify but that might not be what you meant.

2) How do forms of existing words count? I.e. "remove" is used on many cards but "removing" is not -- what is the status of "removing"?
Also, one more question: do number words count as words? And would they qualify if that number had appeared in text boxes but not that number word? For example, eleven, which has appeared as 11 but not eleven.

Edit: And now I designed a card that doesn't care about any of these questions (except maybe #2), but please do let me know anyway because I might change it.

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

1) Repeating a card's name within its text counts for however many words that is. "Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to any target" is eight words (every numeral is one word, whether it's one digit or three).

2) Here's the test: Go to a card search engine and search for the exact string of text in the Oracle text. If you don't find it, it's fair game. So a number word that has appeared as a numeral but never appeared in that exact form before, counts. So does "removing" because it's not "remove" or "removed".
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

slimytrout
Posts: 1197
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

So just to clarify: unique card names do count toward subchallenge 2? I.e., if I use a unique card name and then use that name in the rules text, it satisfies the subchallenge? Because I worried that might have been against the spirit, but your answer seemed to indicate otherwise.

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Technically if a card name contains a word that is in no Oracle texts and the card's name appears in its own text box it passes.

If I made a legend named, say, Azglo the Burning, and it had the ability "8RR, T: Azglo the Burning deals 10 damage to any target," it would pass the subchallenge because the proper name Azglo is a unique word.

However, I think judges would freely mark half a point off for not meeting the spirit of the challenge if you did that route.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 212
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Just FYI fellas, after July MCC Finals I'm taking a break from all contest activities for a while. I'd like to focus on the custom set / block I've been working on for about a year now and it's time to drive it home.

User avatar
Sojourner Dusk
Dominarian Hitchhiker
Posts: 189
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Blind Eternities

Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

@Lorn Asbord Schutta: 29 hours (as of now) to get your Round 4 July MCC entry in! I need to defeat two opponents to prove superiority in design skills.

And counting.

Mostly counting. Helps being polydactyl, I suppose.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



UBR Nekusar (EDH)
RGW Mayael, Naturally (EDH)

Lorn Asbord Schutta
Posts: 657
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

I am here, I am here folks.
I was on a mountain trip, starting from last Tuesday. It was breathtaking in both dictionary and more physical meaning, but the crucial detail was lack of internet. I have just recently returned and I would be glad to get one day extension, almost as glad as getting into finals.

EDIT: To be honest, I think I am fine with what I posted already on finals, so I can live without extension.

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I see you've just entered, but this is a difficult challenge; I'll give all the contestants another 24 hours to revise.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Meanwhile, August's Round 1 is open - I'm concerned that some people may not have seen this thread due to daily contest churn, but there are only two entries thus far, and we definitely need a lot more.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Feyd_Ruin wrote:
1 year ago
scav.jpg
@Feyd_Ruin Gotta post a text card also ;)
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
Feyd_Ruin
Elder Vampire
Posts: 3021
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 3
Pronoun: he / him
Contact:

Post by Feyd_Ruin » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
Feyd_Ruin wrote:
1 year ago
scav.jpg
@Feyd_Ruin Gotta post a text card also ;)
oops. >_<
fixed.
thanks
<3
“Home is where you can find a decent
graveyard and strangers can disappear
without awkward questions.”

Lorn Asbord Schutta
Posts: 657
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Development
Viability 1/3 - If this effect existed, I'm not sure if this should be Red. Maybe Green instead? Or just mono Blue? There is nothing Epic in this card, so Rare would be more appropriate (extra penalty as this was a subchallenge).
Balance 0.5/3 - As written, it's a terrible, terrible Mind Spring. I thoroughly researched what an "alternative casting cost" is, as an early version of my last MCC Finals submission used that exact phrase. And unfortunately I must tell you it's not about hybrid mana, but rather stuff like Flashback, Madness, Miracle, Spectacle, Dash, Suspend, Morph.
TOTAL 18/25
I know that it does not trigger itself, the hybrid cost was added to increase flexibility in casting something already dependent on casting diffrent cards in the same turn.
However, I want to point out that many of the alternative casting costs you mention in Balance section are dominant in red (Flashback; Dash; Spectacle ties with black; Suspend and Miracle ties with white and blue, not to mention red's time counters shaneningas in Time Spiral; Madness is dominant in black, then in red, but other colors do not come any close to them), so if there would be a card anytime soon that cares about alternative casting costs it would be first of all red, even before the blue, since it has the "creativity" flavour that Wizards are trying to highlight for .

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 212
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@Lorn Asbord Schutta That's why I only deducted points for Rarity. That said, I will reevaluate it as I weirdly missed "three cards" ;)

User avatar
Sojourner Dusk
Dominarian Hitchhiker
Posts: 189
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Blind Eternities

Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Balance 0/3 - Broken beyond measure. Virtually any Blue-centered deck could play this and never lose a game (unless facing a Control deck which could counter this). This should cost twice that much mana and still be extremely powerful. Insta-ban for sanctioned play. If that wasn't enough to warrant a full 0 (it was), did you just casually add an Impulse-equivalent effect ON TOP OF THIS?
You did notice that this is a Sorcery, not an Instant, right? It can't be cast in response to lethal damage (without additional help), unlike a different Blue 6 CMC Mythic that was just printed and doesn't have six Blue pips. I would have also compared it to Time Stop, but that is technically only a Rare since there hasn't been a reprinting since 10th Edition... in 2007.

Restarting the game doesn't prevent you from mana flooding or mana screw on the rerun. Just ask anyone that ever popped off Karn Liberated's ultimate and STILL managed to lose because their opponent hit a nut draw and/or their deck stalled on the restart.

The activated Impulse effect exists for two reasons. The first is that I always love having a 6 CMC spell in my opening hand. The second is that if I'm winning the game, why would I want to restart it?






In regards to August, as participation is rather low this month, I'm closing Round 1 with 11 players. Judges will advance the Top 2, and we'll have a three Round month. Assignments will have been posted prior to this message.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



UBR Nekusar (EDH)
RGW Mayael, Naturally (EDH)

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 212
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@Sojourner Dusk Sorcery speed barely matters. You usually know ahead of time when you're losing. It would only improve your odds against combo decks. Speaking of which, let's do some math.

Assume the deck playing Efficacity has a 40% win rate against other decks in meta (awful, likely to be at least 45%).
Then let's assume you manage to draw and cast Efficacity in 50% of your games (again awful, this is likely to be around 80% with proper deckbuilding).
Now you get to replay 50% of the games you'd lose. This alone bumps the deck's win ratio to 64%.
And now repeat this process, because you may want to restart the game again. The win ratio is now 78.4%.
We can repeat this process one more time. You will likely not be able to win due to time limits, but this process can still turn a loss into a draw.

In the end your Efficacity turns a 40% win-rate deck into a 78% win - 8% draw - 14% lose deck.

I did not take into account decks which can actually power through this using counterspells or instant speed game-ending combos. But that's precisely why I lowered the percentages below realistic values. Besides, the whole meta would instantly revolve about playing Efficacity or beating it. Which is the definition of broken.
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
[...] if I'm winning the game, why would I want to restart it?
If you're winning the game, you don't really care about anything else.

I'm sorry to say it, but as you've brought Karn Liberated to my attention, you've also lost 1.5 more points for Uniqueness and Subchallenge 2.

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I'm personally not a big fan of shortening the MCC - even with a reduced player base this month, it doesn't seem fair. Even with three players in the third round, you could eliminate just the bottom scorer and have two finalists go at it in the fourth round.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
Sojourner Dusk
Dominarian Hitchhiker
Posts: 189
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Blind Eternities

Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
@Sojourner Dusk Sorcery speed barely matters. You usually know ahead of time when you're losing. It would only improve your odds against combo decks. Speaking of which, let's do some math.
Sorcery speed doesn't matter? Must be why all those board wipes are printed at Instant speed, then. With this assessment, Platinum Angel must be at the top of your "should be banned" list due to similar metrics.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Assume the deck playing Efficacity has a 40% win rate against other decks in meta (awful, likely to be at least 45%).
Then let's assume you manage to draw and cast Efficacity in 50% of your games (again awful, this is likely to be around 80% with proper deckbuilding).
First, a deck with an aggregate 40% win rate against its meta is not competitively viable. Second, if you manage to draw and cast a 6 CMC spell with no generic mana symbols in its casting cost with 80% consistency, you're stacking your deck. This assumes that you miss no more than one land drop in your first seven turns, and also that you managed to live for seven turns. Third, if you're going to tutor for this spell, you likely need to add either Black or Red to the deck (we're unlikely to see a reprint of Personal Tutor any time soon, though Double Masters would have been excellent timing given its scarcity-inflated price), which rends the probability of being able to reliably cast this. Yes, Granted exists, but now you're looking to either spend 10 mana in one turn or to let your opponent plan for you to try to cast this spell the rest of the game.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Now you get to replay 50% of the games you'd lose. This alone bumps the deck's win ratio to 64%.
And now repeat this process, because you may want to restart the game again. The win ratio is now 78.4%.
We can repeat this process one more time. You will likely not be able to win due to time limits, but this process can still turn a loss into a draw.
The build you're describing here is predicated on stalling and having no win condition for the deck, where you're hoping your opponent(s) scoop in frustration after you cast this spell. And if I were to build a deck with that degree of control, why would I want to restart the game when I've already managed to prevent you from playing?
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
I did not take into account decks which can actually power through this using counterspells or instant speed game-ending combos. But that's precisely why I lowered the percentages below realistic values. Besides, the whole meta would instantly revolve about playing Efficacity or beating it. Which is the definition of broken.
Did you know players have access to these things called "creatures"? And that some of them can deal damage in something called a "combat phase"? And sometimes, though apparently very rarely in your reality, they put enough creatures together in a single deck and call it "Aggro" and can often kill an opponent prior to Turn 6. As far as "broken", the past two years have shown us cards that fit that definition. Hogaak. Oko. T3feri. Cauldron Familiar (okay, not so much this one, but there should be a moment of levity).
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
[...] if I'm winning the game, why would I want to restart it?
If you're winning the game, you don't really care about anything else.
Really? When I'm winning, unless it's an utter rout where I have the game hard locked, I still want to make sure I can finish. I can recall many times being at 1 life and mounting a comeback against an opponent because their deck stalled and I went on a hot streak of timely threats and answers.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
I'm sorry to say it, but as you've brought Karn Liberated to my attention, you've also lost 1.5 more points for Uniqueness and Subchallenge 2.
So, as a Judge, you didn't check to see if I had fulfilled the subchallnge? I mention the only tournament legal card with the word "Restart" in its text (no Do-Over for you), which also contradicts your Elegance assessment, and then you knock me for your laziness? If that's the word you based my subchallenge fulfillment on, how was it that you couldn't take a minute to search for Restart on Scryfall (yes, there are three results, but that's because you literally can't spell "Firestarter" without "restart" in English)?






void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I'm personally not a big fan of shortening the MCC - even with a reduced player base this month, it doesn't seem fair. Even with three players in the third round, you could eliminate just the bottom scorer and have two finalists go at it in the fourth round.
Not my first choice, either, but after seven days, we only had 11 players, and there appears to be a lack of enthusiasm. Whether that's due to the nature of the challenge or an external source, I can't say. I'm not a Mod, I don't see the complaints. For me, eliminating the lowest combined score in the VS Round wouldn't differentiate it significantly from the scoring for the Final.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



UBR Nekusar (EDH)
RGW Mayael, Naturally (EDH)

User avatar
Ryder
Posts: 212
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@Sojourner Dusk you're way too offensive and I've grown tired of your attitude.
@void_nothing @Subject16 it's two days past the judgement deadline, come on :)

Lorn Asbord Schutta
Posts: 657
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

@Subject16, while the extra point is appreciated, I think the math states that it is undeserved.

slimytrout
Posts: 1197
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Just your friendly neighborhood reminder to everyone to please keep things as civil as possible on this thread/forum. I know there can be pretty strenuous disagreements -- I've certainly had some in my time here -- and I definitely understand the impulse to get a little mean/sarcastic, but ultimately it's unlikely to persuade people, and, perhaps more importantly, is liable to drive people away from the forum, which, as I think you're all aware, we can ill afford at the moment as participation in all three monthly contests has dropped to almost unsustainable lows (likely due to external events of course, but still).

slimytrout
Posts: 1197
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Just started judging, and I've never had to do this before, but I need a clarification as a judge: what does "could have appeared in Mirrodin" mean exactly? I.e., do all of the keywords on the card have to have existed by that point? Obviously I'm not going to disqualify someone because their card says "Reach" instead of "Can block creatures with flying," but I would deduct half a point if the challenge was intended to exclude keywords that weren't available in Mirrodin.

User avatar
Subject16
Posts: 1001
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Subject16 » 1 year ago

@Lorn Asbord Schutta thanks for pointing it out! My math was bad this morning it seems.
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
Just started judging, and I've never had to do this before, but I need a clarification as a judge: what does "could have appeared in Mirrodin" mean exactly? I.e., do all of the keywords on the card have to have existed by that point? Obviously I'm not going to disqualify someone because their card says "Reach" instead of "Can block creatures with flying," but I would deduct half a point if the challenge was intended to exclude keywords that weren't available in Mirrodin.
I'm not a judge for this month, but from my interpretation of "could have appeared in Mirrodin" simply meant it would fit into its lore, mechanics, possible limited archetypes and so on, not especially with the oracle text of that time. I didn't feel like we needed to adhere to Mirrodin-Era oracle text, and if that was the case it should have been in the clarifications section.

User avatar
Sojourner Dusk
Dominarian Hitchhiker
Posts: 189
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Blind Eternities

Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
Just started judging, and I've never had to do this before, but I need a clarification as a judge: what does "could have appeared in Mirrodin" mean exactly? I.e., do all of the keywords on the card have to have existed by that point? Obviously I'm not going to disqualify someone because their card says "Reach" instead of "Can block creatures with flying," but I would deduct half a point if the challenge was intended to exclude keywords that weren't available in Mirrodin.
None of the entries deserve a DQ from my perspective. Reach, menace, and hexproof are all mechanics that exist in Mirrodin (lifelink is a different story due to errata shenanigans with Loxodon Warhammer having Spirit Link wording initially, but that's a convoluted headache) though they were not keyworded at that time. There are two entries that don't quite meet the definition I had intended. I assigned myself one, and the other to another Judge. I will be dinging the submission on Main Challenge scoring (for transparency, netn10's entry has indestructible, which wasn't introduced until Darksteel as the new game-changing mechanic of that set), but it isn't worthy of a DQ. The other entry will be up to that Judge as to decide how to procede, but I hope that they do not DQ.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



UBR Nekusar (EDH)
RGW Mayael, Naturally (EDH)

User avatar
void_nothing
The Chosen
Posts: 7335
Joined: 2 years ago
Answers: 68
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Snapgulch, Etrusa

Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I didn't see any entries that would/should be disqualified.

On the note of judging, I hope to have both July's final judgments and August's round 1 judgments done tomorrow.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

The greatest (fake) pro wrestling on the internet

User avatar
Sojourner Dusk
Dominarian Hitchhiker
Posts: 189
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Blind Eternities

Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

While working on reviews for August, a minor change to the Rubric came to mind for Viability. It currently reads:

How well does the card fit into the color wheel? Does it break or bend the rules of the game? Is it the appropriate rarity?

I would like to recommend changing the first question to:

How well does the card fit into its color identity?

Given the increasing number of cards with "off-color" abilities (going back to when this first occurred in Homelands), this seems a prudent update. Also, by definition, colorless cards have never been part of the color wheel.
Last edited by Sojourner Dusk 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



UBR Nekusar (EDH)
RGW Mayael, Naturally (EDH)

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Contests & Games”