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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Thank you both. I was afraid the title could have been taken in an unintended way. In the meantime, my judgments are done. Awaiting the other judges.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Hey Leo, could you please reconsider that deduction in the Main Challenge section? You worded the challenge very specifically - "card's color identity", which is a boader term than the "card's colors" - implying some degree of freedom. I'd say Twilight Panther would be more against the spirit of the challenge than my card.

Violating "spirit of the challenge" should be glaring and obvious. I did it 3 months back, I designed a Faerie with a {U/B} Adventure when the challenge required a mono-green card. It was a blatant dodge. Here I'm not dodging the challenge in any way, I'm only following the nature of the printed companions as they're all hybrids. And yes, I could have Black be the required color, but was that really the point?

Just my $0.02 in, I will accept your decision regardless of the outcome.

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Post by Phyrexian Editor » 1 year ago

The policy on reminder text in the polish section as executed in this contest differs from actual cards. I thought the assumption was that the card would be "printed" in an environment that supports it. In such cases, for rares and mythics, Wizards often excludes reminder text if it would clutter the card. In this case, I think the version of my card with shadow reminder text would certainly be a less elegant design than the version without it.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

As for Ryder: I absolutely agree that wasn't a main challenge violation. Not even the spirit of the challenge. Color identity - a concept that is only relevant in Commander - is what was being restricted. (Bicolor) hybrid mana adds both of the colors of the symbol to the color identity, plain and simple - it feels like a dirty trick to suddenly say "nope, hybrid is a violation."

As for PE: Yeah, rares and mythics drop reminder text all the time. Can't penalize for that imho.
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

For Ryder's submission, it included Black in the color identity. A friend plays Reaper King EDH with all colorless producing lands (yes, there is a Chromatic Lantern, and likely soon a Chromatic Orrery in the deck). It still has a WUBRG color identity, although you can cast it for . I did not deduct points.

For PE's submission, Mythics and Rares in Core sets tend to have reminder text. In non-Core sets, it can be left off unless the mechanic is particularly complex (like Mutate). Originally, I was going to argue that it isn't necessary, but every blackbordered card that has or grants shadow has reminder text, including every Rare, so I am in agreement with Lion that the card should have the reminder text from Traitor's Clutch, and I will be adjusting my score.

I also found it perplexing that both PE and slimytrout had Em dashes in their submissions, but each also missed one in different places.
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

It looks to me you're all missing my point on Ryder's Main Challenge score. He did meet the challenge (if he didn't this would be a full zero here and thus a DQ), but his card is castable without black mana at all. That's the point. I can just use UR. And I have cast the card, that's black (reason not to DQ), without any black in the mana that I have actually spent to cast the card with. Then the CR tell that the card is black. Ok, I've acknowledged that myself, and the rules about hybrid mana and color identity are clear. This is a black card that's castable without using black mana. This is the point. With the same colors, a card with a mana cost of 1{U/R}{U/R}B would have had no problems because it always requires black mana to be cast, and it would have scored 2/2 in Main Challenge.
Originally I had given you 1.5/2 in my first draft. I will revert to that and see if it's decisive for the final outcome.

As for Phyrexian Editor, Sojourner Dusk has explained it well in the post above mine. I have nothing to add to what they wrote.
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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
[...] but his card is castable without black mana at all. That's the point. [...]
bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
Main Challenge - Design your companion.
All of the following must be true about it:
• It has to be a creature card with companion.
• Your card can't use any other mechanics from Ikoria (keyword counters, cycling, mutate).
• Its color identity must contain all the colors in the color identity of your Round 1 card (but it can contain more).
• Its creature types must include all those you used in Round 2 (but it can include more).
• Its converted mana cost must be equal to or greater than your card from Round 3.

[...]

Ryder (B, Turtle Ninja Mutant, CMC >= 4)
Emphasis mine.

I am sorry, but I do not see it. If the challange was to design something with a five-color identity, would Golos, Tireless Pilgrim or Ramos, Dragon Engine violate its spirit? Like previous people said, color identity is a much broader term then just casting cost. One could even ask on the commander board whether hybrid mana collides with the color identity of one of its components on some philosophical level and - besides reinvigorating the long-held debate about hybrid mana - I sincerly doubt that there would be anyone to question the black color identity of Ryder's submission. I could see an argument that if any submission would use changeling, then it would violate the spirit of the third requirement, but - while it did not happened - one could make an activated ability cost, adding off-color mana or creating something akin to Edgewalker, except mentioning colored cost not appearing in its own cost and the submitting player would have no reason to assume that it somehow confilcts with "spirit" of color identity. Because, in my humble opinion, it does not. If the intention behind the second requirement was to see specific mana cost, then it should state about mana cost.

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

@bravelion83: Dismember was played in many decks that ran no Black sources. Wow. Remember when Dismember was thought to be too good?

To my intent, if the casting cost for Ryder's submission had been , would you still have the same objection about it being able to be cast without paying Black mana, even though it still has the same Grixis color identity?
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Post by Phyrexian Editor » 1 year ago

Agreed completely that "color identity" means "color identity" and not possible casting costs. If you wanted a card that couldn't be cast for monocolored mana, you should have specified that in the challenge.

If the judges want to stop adjudicating em dashes, that's completely fine with me. Lots of the things that come up under "polish" are nitpicks that have nothing to do with the quality of the card design, imo. Frankly, part of why I don't sign up to judge these things is I don't want to spend time squinting at dashes.

Shadow hasn't appeared on a rare in a standard-legal set since Tempest (I think?) except for Time Spiral, a set that had 422 cards in it and more than a dozen named mechanics and which is not precedent-setting. It's a simple evasion mechanic and not hard to remember. In these ambiguous cases, where the judge may disagree on a matter of opinion with no precedent, I think that, if it's plausible that the card could be printed in such a way, the judges should award full points, because the players are not mind-readers. But it's not up to me.

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Yeah, definitely think that the challenge was worded pretty unambiguously -- color identity has a very firm definition, and Ryder met it. I definitely understand that that might not have been what bravelion meant, but I think, and I have some experience to back this up, that hosts spend too much time trying to keep people within the bounds of what they "wanted" the challenge to be instead of what it actually said. Also want to second PE on the em-dashes -- it's a pain to always remember how to do it on a keyboard (I have to do shift-alt-hyphen on mine, which I just had to re-look-up), and it really has nothing to do with designing a card. The MCC is already more rigorous about quality than even R&D (MaRo has made it pretty clear that cards are often sent to the templating/editing department in a pretty rough form), so I really don't see why we should let minor details like these decide the contest.

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Scores are done.

The following is from the Nexus MCC Guidelines and FAQ, the link to which is normally found in @bravelion83's signature.
Recommended card formatting
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The recommended way to format your card submissions is as follows. Not following this formatting in your submission might cause point deductions in the Quality section of the rubric. The aim of this formatting is to generate a text card that's the most similar to a real MTG physical card.
• First line: card name (in bold), followed by a space and then the mana cost (in mana tags, with mana symbols in the correct order).
• Second line: this is the type line. Supertype(s), then card type(s), then an em dash (–), then the subtype(s), and finally the rarity. Single spaces are there between each element and the next.
You can do the em dash in various ways, also depending on the OS you are using. In Windows, for example, you can use the key combination CTRL + minus sign on the numeric pad, or copy and paste it from the Character Map. A normal dash, or minus sign (‐), is an acceptable substitute, but the em dash is better because it's what is actually used on printed MTG real cards. Magic Set Editor (MSE) also automatically uses the em dash when you export cards for the web.
For rarity, you should include the initial of the word (C for common, U for uncommon, R for regular rare, and M for mythic rare) in round brackets. The use of different brackets, colors, bold, italics, or any additional formatting for rarity is not technically forbidden but heavily discouraged.
• Third and following lines: this is the rules text. Write it as it would be written on a real MTG card, including (but not limited to) proper line breaks and ability order, up‐to‐date wording, and reminder text if needed.
• Following lines: this is the flavor text. Please don't use any flavor bar. Remember the flavor text is always in italics, and that if it's a quote the attribution must go on a separate line, right after an em dash (again, a normal dash is an acceptable substitute, but not encouraged) and without any space between the dash and the name.
• Last line: power and toughness if the card is a creature, starting loyalty if it's a planeswalker. Please don't include any additional formatting. No square brackets, or any kind of brackets, for a planeswalker's starting loyalty, just the number with no additional formatting. That's true also for loyalty costs.
It is up to the discrimination of the Judge regarding em dashes. For the June Final, there was a lack of consistency in two submissions. My shortcut usually involves copying it from an MSE file or, if I'm feeling lazy, another contestant.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Yeah, I don't think either of us were arguing that judges don't have the right to deduct for dash length, just that we didn't really see the point. And, to be clear, the guidelines explicitly say that a normal dash is an acceptable substitute, so it's pretty weird to deduct for something that's acceptable -- that's not typically how rules work.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Regardless of everything we're talking about here, we could use an organ to control the judges too.

It's usually fine when a judge posts their scores before deadline and there's time to appeal.

What if a judge makes a grievous mistake and the wrong player advances to the next round?
What if a judge consistently fails to judge by the actual MCC rules and goes with their gut instead?

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Also, @Sojourner Dusk -- I don't see any problems with the name fitting in the name bar. Render is below.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

@void_nothing: Don't mean to bug you, since you're very busy running basically this entire forum, but the MCC finals have now fallen off the front page so I wanted to make sure that you hadn't lost track of it. We need you to break the tie!

P.S. Rereading this, I feel like it might have come off as kind of demanding, which is the opposite of what I meant, so apologies for that! You're my hero! ;)

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Thanks for the reminder - I'm certainly aware of the pending final round! Apologies for being late on this - hey, just because the monthlies have run on Void Time for a long time doesn't mean I'm not running behind - but I should be able to judge early tomorrow.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@Sojourner Dusk I believe my wording is correct. "The creature" should be used when the previous part of the rules text wasn't about "target creature". See Die Young Boros Fury-Shield ;)

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
@Sojourner Dusk I believe my wording is correct. "The creature" should be used when the previous part of the rules text wasn't about "target creature". See Die Young Boros Fury-Shield ;)
It's not. On the two cards you mention, there is a single instance resolving. Only one creature is referenced for the effect. For your submission, more than one creature can trigger the effect. "The" is always a singular instance on the stack. "That" is used when there can be multiple concurrent instances being placed on the stack. Here's a few more examples.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
@Sojourner Dusk I believe my wording is correct. "The creature" should be used when the previous part of the rules text wasn't about "target creature". See Die Young Boros Fury-Shield ;)
It's not. On the two cards you mention, there is a single instance resolving. Only one creature is referenced for the effect. For your submission, more than one creature can trigger the effect. "The" is always a singular instance on the stack. "That" is used when there can be multiple concurrent instances being placed on the stack. Here's a few more examples.

Curse of Stalked Prey or Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts or Tephraderm or Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper
I don't think any of your examples applies here. My card has:

"Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, that player draws two cards, then discards cards equal to the number of the creature's subtypes at random."

The underlined part is what makes "the creature" the more fitting phrase in this case. It's presented in the examples I linked.
More examples, also with multiple triggers:
Death's Oasis Anax, Hardened in the Forge Slab Hammer

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
@Sojourner Dusk I believe my wording is correct. "The creature" should be used when the previous part of the rules text wasn't about "target creature". See Die Young Boros Fury-Shield ;)
It's not. On the two cards you mention, there is a single instance resolving. Only one creature is referenced for the effect. For your submission, more than one creature can trigger the effect. "The" is always a singular instance on the stack. "That" is used when there can be multiple concurrent instances being placed on the stack. Here's a few more examples.

Curse of Stalked Prey or Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts or Tephraderm or Ikra Shidiqi, the Usurper
I don't think any of your examples applies here. My card has:

"Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to a player, that player draws two cards, then discards cards equal to the number of the creature's subtypes at random."

The underlined part is what makes "the creature" the more fitting phrase in this case. It's presented in the examples I linked.
More examples, also with multiple triggers:
Death's Oasis Anax, Hardened in the Forge Slab Hammer
None of your examples deal with dealing combat damage, which your submission does. Also, Slab Hammer can only trigger once per combat, unless there is a way to have multiple creatures equip the same equipment I'm unaware of.

There are twenty cards that use the phrase "Whenever a creature you control deals". The two closest to your submission are Cazur and Ikra, as most do not reference the attacking creature. The few remaining that aren't Coastal Piracy variants do not have the phrase "the creature" appear anywhere in their text.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

The rule I mentioned has a global application.
There are plenty of wordings that have not been printed specifically inside a combat damage trigger, it doesn't make them any less real. I've linked numerous different examples proving this.

From the rules perspective, the trigger could be anything, etb, dies or combat damage. It should not affect the wording that follows in any way.
Why does the wording from Death's Oasis (dies trigger) work, but that on my card (combat damage trigger) doesn't? Those triggers are equivalent.

Again, using "the creature" has a very specific function. It's to get the reader's attention back to something that was written before, but not directly before the effect.

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
The rule I mentioned has a global application.
There are plenty of wordings that have not been printed specifically inside a combat damage trigger, it doesn't make them any less real. I've linked numerous different examples proving this.

From the rules perspective, the trigger could be anything, etb, dies or combat damage. It should not affect the wording that follows in any way.
Why does the wording from Death's Oasis (dies trigger) work, but that on my card (combat damage trigger) doesn't? Those triggers are equivalent.

Again, using "the creature" has a very specific function. It's to get the reader's attention back to something that was written before, but not directly before the effect.
In none of your points or counterpoints is any Rule mentioned. You cite cards that you think support your position, but nothing from the CR. And combat damage triggers are different from most other triggers because no player has priority while they are being placed on the stack.
Comprehensive Rules wrote: 510.2. Second, all combat damage that's been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time combat damage is assigned and the time it's dealt.
510.3. Third, the active player gets priority. (See rule 117, "Timing and Priority.")
510.3a Any abilities that triggered on damage being dealt or while state-based actions are performed afterward are put onto the stack before the active player gets priority; the order in which they triggered doesn't matter. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")
Also, Death's Oasis has interesting Errata, where there are cases where you can get the creature that died back. This can be from Clone effects where a creature with CMC greater than the Clone was copied. In this case, "the creature" makes more sense than "that creature" as it could undergo a name change and "that creature" hews closer to a specific name.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Congrats @slimytrout, you did very well this month :)

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Thanks! You guys had really strong submissions despite pretty brutal restrictions -- I felt a bit bad that mine was so (comparatively) easy, since making a companion is quite tricky even in a vacuum!

(And yeah - june was a strong month for me ;) )

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Oh, yeah, by the way - slimytrout has a triple crown.
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