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Sojourner Dusk
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

I would like to say I was slightly disappointed that none of the entries for this Round contained a three word phrase I was hoping to see: "When you cycle".

For those that think that might have been too complicated for a Common, I would remind that the Resounding cycle from Shards of Alara, as well as the Sojourners cycle from Alara Reborn, was printed at Common.
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

@Sojourner Dusk: Freyleyes used that templating/kind of triggered ability, although with a slight wording error.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

I considered it, but I couldn't find any better / more creative use for it than the Sojourners cycle.

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

I also thought about it, but it's actually been done quite often at common, and on some fairly prominent cards (Krosan Tusker, Choking Tethers, Solar Blast), so I went for a more unique trigger that, for lack of a better word, includes "when you cycle."

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Alright, I'll tackle the specific rubric issues now.

Main Challenge shouldn't have 2 points for it. I'd argue it shouldn't have any points awarded for meeting it. Either the card passes the MC or it doesn't (it's a DQ then).

I propose to shift these two points to Balance and Subchallenges (here I propose a variable number of subchallenges, 1 to 3 and dividing the rewards accordingly).

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

My judgments are in. Look at the end of the post.

I'm sorry Ryder, but the Main Challenge section was the main reason to change the previous rubric, that had no such section. Multiple situations have arised where having that section solved the problem, by giving the judge more nuance. I myself as a judge have given a 1 or 1.5 in Main Challenge, several times. The 2/2 is not automatic. It's the most likely outcome but not automatic. Seeing those situations, I was the main supporter of the creation of the Main Challenge section as it is now back when the current rubric was first created. And I'm sorry, but I will not support any attempt to kill it. Also, both Balance and Subchallenges are already there in the rubric, just in different places.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
"When Goldheart Templar is put into a graveyard from anywhere..." (-0.25) See also Vigor cycle. When referencing itself, cards use "into a graveyard". Permanents that notice the movement of other cards use "into your/opponent's graveyard".
I thought about this when making the card, and I don't think we quite know this, because pretty much all of the cards formatted this way are thinking about further zone changes. In this case, it's instructing someone to do something, which could sometimes be ambiguous (at least to players, if not to the rules) if it said "a graveyard" -- for example, what if someone stole Goldenheart Templar and then it died? Who makes the treasure? This way it's clear that "you" are making it since it's "your" graveyard. I'm not sure I ended up at the right place, but since there's never been a card that does this exact thing I don't think there's a well-defined answer for what the templating would be.

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Judgments complete.
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
"When Goldheart Templar is put into a graveyard from anywhere..." (-0.25) See also Vigor cycle. When referencing itself, cards use "into a graveyard". Permanents that notice the movement of other cards use "into your/opponent's graveyard".
I thought about this when making the card, and I don't think we quite know this, because pretty much all of the cards formatted this way are thinking about further zone changes. In this case, it's instructing someone to do something, which could sometimes be ambiguous (at least to players, if not to the rules) if it said "a graveyard" -- for example, what if someone stole Goldenheart Templar and then it died? Who makes the treasure? This way it's clear that "you" are making it since it's "your" graveyard. I'm not sure I ended up at the right place, but since there's never been a card that does this exact thing I don't think there's a well-defined answer for what the templating would be.
The difference between "a graveyard" and "your graveyard" is the difference between control and ownership, which is why cards like Guile and OG Kozilek are worded how they are.

Cards are always sent to their owner's graveyard, not the controller's. For your submission, if your card would be milled or discarded, either wording works for you to create a Treasure token. When your Templar is a creature makes the difference for "a" vs "your". With "a", when the creature dies, whoever controlled it at that time would create the Treasure. With "your", it only creates a Treasure token if its owner has control. This adds a level of complexity that they avoid on Mythics, which is why the wording is standardized when self-referencing for cards that have "If/When CARDNAME is put into a graveyard from anywhere...".
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
With "your", it only creates a Treasure token if its owner has control.
Huh, I actually did not know that -- I'd thought that my wording would always make its owner a Treasure when it dies, no matter who has control. Always good to learn something!

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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

In June first round, does a card with a static P/T increase, like Deadeye Plunderers, as long its base p/t is same, is against the spirit of challange?
Likewise, does Hydras and similiar cards starting as 0/0 and then getting +1/+1 counters satisfy the challange?

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Lorn Asbord Schutta wrote:
1 year ago
In June first round, does a card with a static P/T increase, like Deadeye Plunderers, as long its base p/t is same, is against the spirit of challange?
Likewise, does Hydras and similiar cards starting as 0/0 and then getting +1/+1 counters satisfy the challange?
Those are both totally fine: All that is disallowed is unequal base p/t and ability-defined */*.
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@bravelion83 that round 4 challenge is Nasty. Black Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle? Damn.

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

It was always going to be this way, the challenge had been planned before I knew who the players were, actually before the beginning of the month, you just didn't know it. The whole strutcure of the month was based on the sentence "Design your companion", that was the very first thing I wrote for June's final round. If you notice, what you chose for every round's Subchallenge 2 comes back here. You were unbeknownstly designing the parts of your companion in previous rounds. And it being difficult is kinda intended, it's a final after all. Then some had more luck than others in the requirements you were building yourself for the final round. This was the idea behind the month, and now it's fully unveiled. I agree you might have the hardest challenge, but you did it yourself. And remember Teenage isn't a supported creature type yet, which makes it even more difficult for you.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

It's likely helping me in this case, but I still stand by a point that I made in an earlier contest (hmmm... who was hosting that one again? ;) ):
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
I do think that it is unfortunate when a subchallenge in one contest ultimately sets you up for failure in a subsequent contest
In this case it's been done very elegantly, with each subchallenge encouraging you to make certain choices that will ultimately impact your final companion, so I have to admit that I really admire the overall structure, but I can't help but wonder if there was a way to do it so that the incentives were aligned (as in the first challenge, where designing a mono-colored card makes your companion easier) as opposed to anti-aligned (as in the second and third, where having multiple creature types and a high CMC makes things more difficult).

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

You're totally right slimy, I did the same thing, however I only did it as a subchallenge and it was just one card aspect. Forcing 3 card aspects in the Main Challenge is extremely restricting.

I feel like I'm already losing Elegance points for the Legendary Creature — Turtle Ninja Mutant type line alone.

Not that I'm complaining, I do love a good challenge. I'd just like some insurance that I will not be penalized for elements which are forced on my design.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I personally never penalize for elements of a design forced by the main challenge. Subchallenges? Different story - if you tack on something from a subchallenge with no reason to, I'll take off elegance points.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

@Ryder: I was really just kidding about that -- they're definitely very different scenarios. I was mainly just trying to repeat my larger point that it feels bad when you've been "tricked" into making your own life harder, as is the case with your mutant ninja turtle. For comparison, in the CCL there are plenty of challenges that have "memory," but because there are no subchallenges it always feels like you had full agency over your own choices.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Anyways, I completely stand by Leo's bold idea here, I'm always all for giving real challenges. Good luck everyone!

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@bravelion83 Is using another mechanic from Ikoria indirectly okay? In my case I'm indirectly using Mutate as it's an alternative casting cost.

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
@bravelion83 Is using another mechanic from Ikoria indirectly okay? In my case I'm indirectly using Mutate as it's an alternative casting cost.
Mutate is already an alternative casting cost, you aren't doing anything differently that usual. What do you mean exactly with the word "indirectly"?
I understood what you mean by looking at your current submission. Yes, what you did there is fine.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Anyways, I completely stand by Leo's bold idea here, I'm always all for giving real challenges. Good luck everyone!
Thank you. Giving a real challenge that you were unbeknownstly building upon round after round was exactly my intent with this structure.
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
I can't help but wonder if there was a way to do it...
Maybe, I don't exclude it, but this is what immediately came to my mind as soon as companion was revealed. That's why I hoped they didn't destroy the mechanic with the companion errata. I had a whole month essentially based on it, I didn't want to have to redesign the final round because of the errata, without anybody knowing. Anyway, now you all see the plan. Somebody will like it, others won't. Actually the overall response I see is heavily leaning towards positive, and I thank everybody for that. That "executed very elegantly" in particular felt like a huge compliment to me:
slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
In this case it's been done very elegantly...
and much appreciated. Yes, there might have been another way to do it, but this one is the one that I thought about, and in the end it looks like it went well enough.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
I'd just like some insurance that I will not be penalized for elements which are forced on my design.
void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I personally never penalize for elements of a design forced by the main challenge.
@Ryder, don't worry, I agree with void_nothing here. I also won't penalize you because of earlier subchallenges forcing you in a hard spot for the final round's Main Challenge. You couldn't know it, and you not knowing it was kinda key to the month.

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1 year ago
Man, I really dug myself a heckuva hole with this creature type...
You're not the only one for whom this challenge is particularly hard. See above for what Ryder says. I repeat that the difficulty of the challenge is fully intentional. It's the finals! You have to deserve the victory.
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
@Sojourner Dusk No one is penciled in for July yet. The month is all yours.
So,,, I'll take August?
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Oh my lord I'm so terribly sorry! You generously offered to take the big task of hosting and I was absentminded and inconsiderate. I forgot about this and that's totally on me. I was scrambling to make sure the monthlies were ready, it slipped my mind that you'd signed up, and I managed to miss your post whilst I was checking the discussion thread.

My apologies again. I owe it to you all to get more organized, and of course you can host August.
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

If you would like help, we could help you organize the schedule, void.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
That's not at all what I intended to refer to with it, even though now I see them too. I was referring to the bond of bonders in the world of Ikoria, that love the monster they have bonded with. Now that you've made me see its unintended double meaning, I'm ashamed of it. I probably should have come up with a different title. I apologize to everyone that might have been unintentionally offended by this.
There's no reason to be embarrassed at all, let alone ashamed. It's more commonly rendered as "the bonds of love," but it's definitely a known idiom in English, and, possible dirty jokes notwithstanding, is a perfectly acceptable phrase -- a quick Google search shows multiple hymns that use it.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Yeah, no sweat, Magic is full of accidental innuendos. Ones much worse than this! Like, you know, the "blows" of unbelievers.
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