The MCC Discussion Thread

StonerOfKruphix
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Post by StonerOfKruphix » 1 year ago

slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
It's somewhat painful for me to do this, as it will likely lead to my being eliminated, but Scarbo had a point taken away unfairly in Quality: the flip 'walkers refer to themselves by gender (see Liliana, Heretical Healer) for whatever reason, so the submitted version is correct.

To leave myself some shred of hope of advancing, I am also going to argue (although I understand if you still disagree) that I don't think that my submission is too powerful to be an uncommon, or at least not a full point's deduction away -- yes, it's good if you're beating your opponent down and can punish them for stumbling, but it's absolutely worthless in a board stall or if you're behind -- compare it to Reconnaissance Mission just in this set, which is of comparable power level and has cycling and yet is not a particularly high pick. My card is in a common vein of red uncommon enchantments (Burning Vengeance, Ghirapur Aether Grid, etc.) which are situationally quite powerful but are absolutely useless in the wrong board state. Moreover, the division between uncommon/rare is not entirely one of power level anyway -- if you read this article, Mark explains that in fact limited build-around cards like these are ones that belong at uncommon, especially in this case where having multiple in your deck would not be absurdly powerful (in fact, an opening hand with two of these would probably be pretty awful).

I really appreciate you defending another contestant. I already clarified that situation.
Now, on to your card. I totally understand your criticism of my judgment, and I've already shown that I'm willing to change the score because I own up to my mistakes, but in your case, I stand behind what I've said.
I agree on the points that you raise, especially with the comparisons to Recon Mission and Burning Vengeance (even though the last one was arguably one of the strongest uncommon build-arounds in both the limited environments it was in), but I have to respectfully disagree on the point that multiples of them wouldn't make them more powerful, since then you would need less creatures to connect to make a dragon, which would then help you connect more and make even more dragons. Also, the reasoning that it's useless if you're behind can be applied to virtually any card, because if my opponent is beating me in the air or on the ground, even a Planeswalker like Lukka, Narset or Vivien (just to mention some from the new set) won't help me get out of that situation.
Besides, one of the reasons behind a full point docking is that the most likely scenario for this card to be in a set would be in one that already supports a Treasure theme (as it find really hard to fathom a Core Set introducing this card as a one-of Treasure maker), and that's where the card really becomes obscene, because it means that cards like Sailor of Means come with a 1/4 of a hasty dragon attached to them, or Contract Killing (which is a removal you'd play regardless) gives you half a dragon. Reiterating the comparison I've already made to Storm the Vault (which is a rare, btw), and expanding on it, there's a reason behind the fact that Storm gives you only one treasure if you connect, and that's because the potential for skipping way ahead of your curve is very real there, while the downside is very low, since in limited most of the times you'd close your games by just attacking.
Now, if the treasure making clause was like Storm the Vault or the dragon token didn't have haste, your card would've gotten full points, but as it is, it provides you too much value for something you'd be doing anyway. Uncommon buildarounds make you play around a certain playstyle and reward you for it, but attacking is something you would do in any game.
I hope I didn't come across as stubborn or hostile, I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my judging.
Anyways, as you have seen, all the cards were within a half a point difference, so it means that the round was really tight. I'm sorry if you had to get the axe, and I understand that losing by that little of a difference might make you paradoxically feel even worse than losing by a 5 points difference, but this is just a testament of your quality as a custom card maker.
I, for one, was really sad to see your card lose, as it was probably the one I would've liked to see printed the most, but when judging I must suppress my personal likings and be more objective as possible.
I wish you good luck in the next month contest.

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

StonerOfKruphix wrote:
1 year ago
I hope I didn't come across as stubborn or hostile, I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my judging.
Definitely not! I have certainly stood my ground on similar disagreements when judging myself. And, to be honest, I would not have brought it up in a typical round, except this time I wanted to lessen the blow of my having to argue for scarbo to get points back. I still don't agree with you, because I think that a) your comparison to Storm the Vault is a little odd, given that it was part of a rare cycle, had a whole other side, and was a flat F in draft, b) I very much disagree about having multiples of this, for example, imagine having an opening hand that was two Plundered Hoards, a two drop, a burn spell, and three lands (which is far from the worst case scenario): your odds of connecting enough to make even one dragon are only medium, and at that point you've spent six mana and two cards to get one 4/4 dragon, and, most importantly, c) the metric for deciding whether something is uncommon or rare is not really power-level based (see: Ravenous Chupacabra, Elite Scaleguard, and, as mentioned earlier, Burning Vengeance), it's about effect on limited vs. constructed. All in all, I think it would have been fair to deduct half a point for a card that is perhaps uncomfortably between rare and uncommon, but not a full point, since that means that there's something that makes the card clearly unprintable at the given rarity, which is unlikely since you've suggested that removing haste from the dragon would have made it okay.

But, of course, you are the judge, and I understand that you've made your decision and appreciate your kind words.

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@Ink-Treader I've done some research and the best combo I could find is Aurelia, the Warleader + Moltensteel Dragon. Kills two players right off the stack for only 30 life of yours (throw in Griselbrand for lifelink!) :D

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

This month I'll judge, then next month (June) I'd like to host. I have an idea. I'll remember everybody at the end of this month.
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Mimicvat wrote:
1 year ago
Is a card that becomes a land a valid entry?

Does the card need to be "industry" themed or somehow related to an industry based plane?
Please confine questions to the MCC Discussion Thread.
No, your card must be a land on its (front face) typeline. Thaumatic Compass, for example, would fail the Main Challenge.

No, your card does not need to have "industry" themes. The challenge means exactly what it says; there's nothing you need to guess or read into. The names of the rounds are just for fun and flavor and to easily distinguish them. They do not affect the challenge whatsoever.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

My April Round 3 judgments and the April finals will be posted tomorrow - sorry to delay.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

April's finals are now up.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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scarbo
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Post by scarbo » 1 year ago

re: finals subchallenge

Does referencing the power/toughness of a creature constitute 1 word? - i.e., "Create a 0/0 Dragon creature token with flying" would be 8 words or 7?

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I'll say 7, just because you can't actually say "5/" or "/5" and make sense under the rules as they exist.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Rithaniel
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

Sometimes I find myself confused by very minor things. Like:

Flavor 2.5/3 - Everything holds. Solid.

So, ultimately, this doesn't affect anything in the contest. However, I just can't help my curiosity: Where exactly did I lose the half point? The comment seems 100% positive.
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scarbo
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Post by scarbo » 1 year ago

I guess the judges forgot about Dragonsoul Knight :#

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

My judgments for May Round 1 are up.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on September 28th 2021)
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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All on MTGSalvation for now. See this Blogger post.
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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

Rithaniel wrote:
1 year ago
Sometimes I find myself confused by very minor things. Like:

Flavor 2.5/3 - Everything holds. Solid.

So, ultimately, this doesn't affect anything in the contest. However, I just can't help my curiosity: Where exactly did I lose the half point? The comment seems 100% positive.
It's about the base points in each category. While in Development the base is 3/3 and points are deducted for mistakes, in Creativity - the base is 0/0 and points are awarded. I reserve 3/3 in Flavor for cards especially pleasing my Vorthos, not just "solid" ones ;)

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Sojourner Dusk
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
Balance 1.5/3 - Lands that can add more than one mana are always dangerous, in fact they no longer do them these days. At least, this requires a sacrifice. But we're still playing with fire. I see this as playable in all formats, but not necessarily for good reasons.
Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale (Sep 2017), Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun (Jan 2018), Lotus Field (Jul 2019), and Castle Garenbrig (Oct 2019) would each like a word with you, especially since the last two are currently in Standard. :smirk:
bravelion83 wrote:
1 year ago
Uniqueness 2.5/3 - While effects like this aren't completely new, it's true that we haven't seen them since original Mirrodin if I've searched Gatherer correctly. It's two years before original Ravnica, when I started playing 15 years ago (Ravnica is already a teenager now! It absolutely doesn't feel like that to me.), so here we're talking of 17 years that we don't see such effects. I can't penalize your card too much here. Yes, the effect already exists but it's never been on a land and we haven't seen it for 17 years. If you're wondering, the Mirrodin card is Bosh, Iron Golem.
There have been two cards printed with a similar effect to my submission, but Bosh is not one of them. It also does not fit the effect, as it does not care about color or pips. The two cards are Charmed Pendant from Odyssey (Oct 2001) and Elemental Resonance from Dissension (May 2006). The latter of the two was a better match to my intent, so I cribbed the reminder text. So it's only been 14 years since the effect has been seen, and was from the block you started with. Not that many people have ever played with either of these obscure <$1 Rares.
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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
Dowsing Dagger // Lost Vale (Sep 2017), Azor's Gateway // Sanctum of the Sun (Jan 2018), Lotus Field (Jul 2019), and Castle Garenbrig (Oct 2019) would each like a word with you, especially since the last two are currently in Standard.
In fact I currently don't play Standard and haven't since about a year, but yes, you're right. The only one I thought about even if I didn't mention it explicitly (I should have) was Lotus Field, but I absolutely didn't think about Castle Garenbrig (my bad). For the other two, you have to jump through hoops (aka transform them) to get the "more than one mana" effect.
Lands that add more than one mana are still a very dangerous space to play in.
Sojourner Dusk wrote:
1 year ago
The two cards are Charmed Pendant from Odyssey (Oct 2001) and Elemental Resonance from Dissension (May 2006). The latter of the two was a better match to my intent, so I cribbed the reminder text. So it's only been 14 years since the effect has been seen, and was from the block you started with.
In fact I remembered the Resonance as soon as I saw it from autocard. I am among the very few people who did play with that card. I didn't even know the Pendant existed.
But the number of years being 14 or 17 doesn't make a difference on the point that I was making, It's still a huge number of years.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on September 28th 2021)
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
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All on MTGSalvation for now. See this Blogger post.
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Sojourner Dusk
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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Where's Round 2? C'mon, void, get on the ball. You're only running the May MCC. And the May CCL. And the DCC. And Daily Challenges. And finishing the April MCC. And moderating a few threads under the Custom Cards forums. /sarcasm

Seriously, though, just want to give kudos for all the work you do around here.
May your games be chaotic and your decks be rogue.



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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

You forgot moderating the Rumor Mill and Rulings. ;)

Round 2 is now up, and I'll be putting in my judgments for the April final tomorrow (mostly just because my mind is foggy at the moment). Thanks for the kudos!
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

@Ryder is April's MCC winner! Congrats.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

@void_nothing I won't make it today with the MCC judgements. One more day please ;)

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void_nothing
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

That's just fine, you can have an extension.
Psst, check the second page of Custom Card Contests & Games! Because of the daily contests, a lot of games fall down to there.

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bravelion83
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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

After only five hours and a half after the deadline (I'm obviously sarcastic with myself, I apologize to everybody else but I had real life things to take care of first), my own judgments for May round 2 are complete.
My CCCG Resume (Updated on September 28th 2021)
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MCC - Winner (6): Oct 2014, Apr Nov 2017, Jan 2018, Apr Jun 2019 || Host (21): Dec 2014, Apr Jul Aug Dec 2015, Mar Jul Aug Oct 2016, Feb Jul 2017, Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) Oct 2019, Jan Jun 2020 Apr Oct 2021 || Judge (47): every month from Nov 2014 to Nov 2016 except Oct 2015, every month from Feb to Jul 2017 except Apr 2017, then Oct 2017, May Jun Nov 2018, Feb Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), every month from Aug 2019 (first ever on MTGNexus) to Feb 2020, May Jun 2020, Mar Apr Sep Oct 2021
CCL - Winner (4): Jul 2016 (tied with Flatline), May 2017, Jul 2019 (last ever on MTGSalvation), Jun 2021 (tied with slimytrout) || Host (5): Feb 2015, Mar Apr May Jun 2016
DCC - Winner (1): Mar 2015 (tied with Piar) || Host (5): May Oct 2015, Jan 2016, Jun Sep 2021
My projects (Updated on June 14th 2019)
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All on MTGSalvation for now. See this Blogger post.
Author of the MCC Guidelines and FAQ.

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Ryder
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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

I'm also done.

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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

I don't want to spark conflict, and I definitely don't want to criticize Ryder, but I do think this is worth discussion:
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
No problems here. However, I've seen your thread asking for help with the templating, which you received. You basically had your card pre-judged and could still edit. That wasn't too sportsmanlike. That's why I'm taking 0.01 off here.
I personally think that people shouldn't be discouraged from seeking help, especially if templating isn't something that comes naturally to them. My feeling is that the MCC has such strong quality controls so that people are encouraged to get better and make an effort to produce print-ready cards, and part of doing that could be reaching out to the community for help. But I would certainly be curious what others think.

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Post by Ryder » 1 year ago

They certainly are. Players always get feedback from the judges so they can improve. MCC is a contest, though. Which means, you shouldn't advance because someone other than a judge pointed out your errors. These errors matter here.

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Post by Sojourner Dusk » 1 year ago

Two quick post-judgment notes.

1) @bravelion83: When you reviewed @Rithaniel's card, did you take into account that it can target other players' creatures? From what I read, it doesn't appear so. With a Lantern of Insight in play, his card can guarantee getting rid of problematic or difficult creatures.

2)
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Viability 1.5/3 - Such a powerful and focused effect should not be colorless. The card screams double or triple Red.
That is why it's colorless mana, not generic. It's much easier to generate RR or even RRR than CC, unless you're playing in Eternal formats. Shocks, Checks, Tris, and Fetches make color fixing a LOT easier to pull off than colorless generation. I recall playing Standard during Lorwyn and going against 5CC, where they cast Cryptic Command on turn 4 and Cruel Ultimatum on Turn 7 with no issues (barring missing a land drop). Those decks could handily generate any color with Vivids and Reflecting Pool, but would have struggled to consistently generate colorless mana.
Ryder wrote:
1 year ago
Balance 1.5/3 - Path of Discovery says this is too much.
Path of Discovery can also be played in multiples, and the effect will trigger for each copy. My submission was Legendary to avoid this.
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