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haywire
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Post by haywire » 1 year ago

@bravelion83 For December Round 3 subchallenge 2, would untapping them as part of the effect that creates them work?

i.e. "Create 2 tapped powerstone tokens. If you control 3 Ninjas and a Dog, untap them."

Or do they have to enter untapped to begin with?

Thank you! And appreciate your dive into alternative language tenses on the previous judgement, was super interesting.

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Post by bravelion83 » 1 year ago

haywire wrote:
1 year ago
@bravelion83 For December Round 3 subchallenge 2, would untapping them as part of the effect that creates them work?
No, sorry. They have to be able to enter untapped, not enter tapped and then be untapped afterwards, not even by the same effect.
i.e. "Create 2 tapped powerstone tokens. If you control 3 Ninjas and a Dog, untap them."
I would have made them 4 Turtle Ninjas and a Rat, but no, that would not count. "Create two Powerstone tokens. Those tokens enter the battlefield tapped unless you control three Ninjas and a Dog." WOULD count though. There is a subtle difference, but that difference is all that matters.
Or do they have to enter untapped to begin with?
Exactly this.
Thank you! And appreciate your dive into alternative language tenses on the previous judgement, was super interesting.
It was just one of my usual digressions, I do them all the time about all kinds of different subjects, it just comes natural to me, but if somebody actually likes them I guess that's even better. Thank you. Don't worry. More will surely come.
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Raptorchan
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Post by Raptorchan » 1 year ago

I am struggling to figure out what the January requirement is.
These challenges are becoming weirder and weirder every year.

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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Raptorchan wrote:
1 year ago
I am struggling to figure out what the January requirement is.
These challenges are becoming weirder and weirder every year.
@Rithaniel can clarify but here is my explanation: The card must be monocolor or bicolor. Its color identity must be tricolor. And the card can neither be the center color of its tricolor order as monocolor nor have that color mana in its text as bicolor. For example, a B card with a GW activated ability and a RG card with a U activated ability are both not allowed. However, B with RG and GW with U are fine.

So W could have any two color combination but GU or BR in its text.
U could have any but WB or RG.
B could have any but UR or GW.
R could have any but BG or WU.
G could have any but RW or UB.

GW could have any one color but B.
WU could have any but R.
UB could have any but G.
BR could have any but W.
RG could have any but U.

GU could have any but W.
UR could have any but B.
RW could have any but G.
WB could have any but U.
BG could have any but R.
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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
Raptorchan wrote:
1 year ago
I am struggling to figure out what the January requirement is.
These challenges are becoming weirder and weirder every year.
@Rithaniel can clarify but here is my explanation: The card must be monocolor or bicolor. Its color identity must be tricolor. And the card can neither be the center color of its tricolor order as monocolor nor have that color mana in its text as bicolor. For example, a B card with a GW activated ability and a RG card with a U activated ability are both not allowed. However, B with RG and GW with U are fine.

So W could have any two color combination but GU or BR in its text.
U could have any but WB or RG.
B could have any but UR or GW.
R could have any but BG or WU.
G could have any but RW or UB.

GW could have any one color but B.
WU could have any but R.
UB could have any but G.
BR could have any but W.
RG could have any but U.

GU could have any but W.
UR could have any but B.
RW could have any but G.
WB could have any but U.
BG could have any but R.
Isn't it more restrictive then that? I thought if you go with any tricolor shard (for example, gwu Bant) you cannot choose the color that is allied to both others if monocolor () nor the enemy color pair (). So a mono-white card with gwu in its rules text also fails to meet the challange. For wedges the ones that fail are the color that is an enemy to both others or the allied color pair.

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Post by Raptorchan » 1 year ago

That's why I say it's tough to understand.

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

Raptorchan wrote:
1 year ago
I am struggling to figure out what the January requirement is.
These challenges are becoming weirder and weirder every year.
Well, let's get it clarified, then. Maybe I can rewrite the current clarifications or add further clarifications that will make it more obvious what you're supposed to be doing. Where did the current clarifications lose you?
void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
@Rithaniel can clarify but here is my explanation:
Your explanation is mostly accurate, but it need not be in an activated ability, and, as Lorn pointed out, you can have up to all three colors in the text box, regardless of the actual colors.

You can explain it from a "pick your colors first" point of view, as void did, or from a "pick your color identity first" point of view, which I'm about to do.

So, there are ten three-color color identities ("CI"). If your card has a particular color identity, then the colors ("C") it can be are restricted. I'll give the full list in the spoiler below. When I say "at least and not ," I mean "it must not actually be the color , and it's colors must include at least ."
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If your card has the "Esper" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Grixis" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Jund" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Naya" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Bant" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Abzan" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Jeskai" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Sultai" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Mardu" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
If your card has the "Temur" CI of , then C must be "at least and not " or "at least and not ."
Does that make more sense? Does it make less sense?
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

Or in other words:
Rithaniel wrote:
1 year ago
If your card has the "Esper" CI of , then C must NOT be U or WB.
If your card has the "Grixis" CI of , then C must NOT be B or UR.
If your card has the "Jund" CI of , then C must NOT be R or BG.
If your card has the "Naya" CI of , then C must NOT be G or RW.
If your card has the "Bant" CI of , then C must NOT be W or GU.
If your card has the "Abzan" CI of , then C must NOT be B or GW.
If your card has the "Jeskai" CI of , then C must NOT be R or WU.
If your card has the "Sultai" CI of , then C must NOT be G or UB.
If your card has the "Mardu" CI of , then C must NOT be W or BR.
If your card has the "Temur" CI of , then C must NOT be U or RG.
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
Or in other words:
This is the best explanation, I think. I'm gonna pretty it up and add it to the clarifications.
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Post by marioguy3 » 1 year ago

Sorry, Rithaniel, but I think this January challenge is too complex for a round one. If I were a new custom card designer and saw this challenge, I would think this contest is "not for me" and move on. The site's had a bit lower participation numbers for the MCC (especially the CCL), and complex main challenges for round one might not help. This would be perfect challenge for a round two, round 3, and a final round though.
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Post by marioguy3 » 1 year ago

To clarify, I really like the idea of a tri-color theme and explorations of colors in custom designs though.
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

marioguy3 wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry, Rithaniel, but I think this January challenge is too complex for a round one. If I were a new custom card designer and saw this challenge, I would think this contest is "not for me" and move on. The site's had a bit lower participation numbers for the MCC (especially the CCL), and complex main challenges for round one might not help. This would be perfect challenge for a round two, round 3, and a final round though.
Oh, I simply picked out the option that I thought was most fun. I wanted to give people the chance to make a more open-ended card, rather than hide the fun challenge back in the third or fourth round.

I'd love to see your approach, though. You should try hosting some time.
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Post by void_nothing » 1 year ago

I don't think the challenge is complex in the least... the problem is it's hard to express.
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Post by OneAndOnly » 1 year ago

"Create a creature with shadow" is simple (as in, not complex.)

"Create a card that uses at least three colors, but in very specific combinations, which may also need to be hybrid, and still makes sense as a card" is complex.

Like, how many of each of these cards do you think exist in MtG already?

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

void_nothing wrote:
1 year ago
I don't think the challenge is complex in the least... the problem is it's hard to express.
Yeah, it's a really simple idea, if it's already in your brain. Like, I was thinking that people would have an intuitive sense of what a "symmetric" or "asymmetric" card would be, just from looking at cards that have been printed, but you can never make that assumption. When I tried to express it in text form, though, I found that it was difficult to formalize.

So, it might come down to "complex, if you haven't thought about it before, and trivial if you have."
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

OneAndOnly wrote:
1 year ago
"Create a creature with shadow" is simple (as in, not complex.)

"Create a card that uses at least three colors, but in very specific combinations, which may also need to be hybrid, and still makes sense as a card" is complex.
Well, if the challenge is upsetting you guys, I don't have to stick around. We're still in the first two days of the month. If marioguy3 or you want to take over, I can let you make a "create a creature with shadow" round.
OneAndOnly wrote:
1 year ago
Like, how many of each of these cards do you think exist in MtG already?
Not enough.
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Post by slimytrout » 1 year ago

I think we could turn down the heat here a little. I firmly believe that everyone on this thread has the best interest of the MCC at heart, and that Rithaniel will do (and is doing) a great job just like he has when hosting the DCC many times. I am sympathetic to those saying that this is a difficult challenge to understand (I certainly had to read it through several times to figure out what was meant) -- my general thesis is that it is a good idea for the parameters of the challenge (especially the Round 1 challenge) to actually fit within the text of the prompt with perhaps a few minor clarifications below. That being said, I am also very sympathetic to Rithaniel's desire to push beyond what has already been done a million times, and don't believe that we should discourage that -- I myself recently hosted an MCC (and am currently hosting a CCL) where I tried to do that with mixed success, and if people had started criticizing my approach in this thread it would not have been good for my desire to host again. Moreover, while I agree that it is important to have doable challenges to encourage participation, I also think that is important to have "fresh" challenges for exactly the same reason.

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

slimytrout wrote:
1 year ago
I think we could turn down the heat here a little. I firmly believe that everyone on this thread has the best interest of the MCC at heart, and that Rithaniel will do (and is doing) a great job just like he has when hosting the DCC many times. I am sympathetic to those saying that this is a difficult challenge to understand (I certainly had to read it through several times to figure out what was meant) -- my general thesis is that it is a good idea for the parameters of the challenge (especially the Round 1 challenge) to actually fit within the text of the prompt with perhaps a few minor clarifications below. That being said, I am also very sympathetic to Rithaniel's desire to push beyond what has already been done a million times, and don't believe that we should discourage that -- I myself recently hosted an MCC (and am currently hosting a CCL) where I tried to do that with mixed success, and if people had started criticizing my approach in this thread it would not have been good for my desire to host again. Moreover, while I agree that it is important to have doable challenges to encourage participation, I also think that is important to have "fresh" challenges for exactly the same reason.
Thanks, slimytrout. I appreciate it.

In any case, I sincerely hope that the challenge actually is fun, and perhaps just a little difficult to understand. But I'm willing to work with people if it needs to be "fixed."
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Post by marioguy3 » 1 year ago

I honestly was expected to be a lone wolf in this case and not have others follow up. I appreciate @Rithaniel's contributions to each of the main contests I am a part of. Overall, the contests on this site are fun. Part of my feelings have to do with my own design failures on the site.

The clarifications are definitively clear and I can't wait to see what @Rithaniel comes up with for future rounds, whether as a participant or as an active reader of fun designs from others.
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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

marioguy3 wrote:
1 year ago
I honestly was expected to be a lone wolf in this case and not have others follow up. I appreciate @Rithaniel's contributions to each of the main contests I am a part of. Overall, the contests on this site are fun. Part of my feelings have to do with my own design failures on the site.
Oh, I think your designs are totally fine. Like, you can always point out flaws in a person's design, but that's universal. No design is going to be perfect.

But one thing that you have going for you is that you're willing to explore new stuff. The whole month of December, you were making cards explicitly for Planechase. That got my attention, at the very least.

I mean it when I say that I would like to see your approach to hosting the MCC one month. I don't know if you've ever judged (I wasn't keeping up with the MCC until last October), but if you have, you should try your hand at hosting some time. (If you haven't ever judged, I'd say to try judging.)
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Post by OneAndOnly » 1 year ago

Look, don't take this too personally. It's a good exploration of the eternal question, "What makes good contest criteria?"

"Shadow" to me is a good criterion, because it's open-ended. As a mechanic, it isn't, really -- it's just a variant of flying -- but it ties in with a specific era and specific flavor of MtG that hasn't been re-visited lately. A participant can digger deeper into that era, or make something with flavor from a more recent set -- Equipment that grants shadow, a Vehicle with shadow, a Saga the does something with shadow -- and, past that, tie it in with other mechanics. There are a lot of ways it can be interpreted and implemented.

"Legend of Zelda" -- the current prompt in Nexus Flamingo -- is less good of a criterion to me. You have to know and like the game, and understand its context well enough to port it over into MtG. I'm not big on the game, but I'm sure there are enough similar tropes that it wouldn't be difficult to create a card based on it. But I'm not into the game, so it's (for me) an essentially impentetrable barrier, so (again, for me) makes it much less good of a criterion. A little more objectively, I'd have to guess at how many board members are into it.

"Make a card with {specifically these, but not those} mana costs and color identities" is ... well, it's not so much that it allows some specific combinations and disallows others, but that it does so in a virtually arbitrary way. Especially since, in Magic, there isn't that much mechanically or flavorwise distinguishing W/UB from U/WB. It allows only tri-color cards, and therefore only mechanics that work within the specific combinations of tri-color cards allowable, but without relying on existing wedge or shard identities. It's a lot of hoops to hop through, without a lot of support for making a good card as a result.
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Post by marioguy3 » 1 year ago

The reason I have never judged is because I am not in tune with the flavor of Magic cards, and I am not in-tune with how cards should "feel" with the player demographics specifically. I don't read Magic story and feel that should be one prerequisite of a MCC judge.

I designed a crazy card for January anyway so I am fully embracing how we deal with the constraints of the challenge. Mark Rosewater would approve of the round's perimeters. Also the art in the banner has never been better and amazing than this month's art.
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Post by Lorn Asbord Schutta » 1 year ago

OneAndOnly wrote:
1 year ago
Especially since, in Magic, there isn't that much mechanically or flavorwise distinguishing W/UB from U/WB.
Wholeheartedly disagree. Most of time cards in Magic are played via paying their cost, so what card can do have to be first and foremost dependent on what color of mana you had to pay. You cannot for instance make a mono-red card with a native lifelink even if that card has a mardu identity. Or a card like Twisted Reflection, that needs to be dimir as a whole, but could not work if the colors were switched between casting cost and entwine. So there is certainly a room to explore in terms of mechanics.
Likewise, in terms of flavour, consider Tarkir clans. The clan for each tricolor wegde was not centered in the color that was enemy, but in one of the allied ones. This fact was heavly reflected in the flavour and I am sure that while more subtle then mechanical, but there is still flavour distinction between abzan card that demands payment of to cast and an abzan card demanding to cast.
It is useful to look at Tarkir due to another reason: quite a few cards from Khans of Tarkir and Fate Reforged actually meet the main challange, so they could come as an inspiration.

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Post by Rithaniel » 1 year ago

OneAndOnly wrote:
1 year ago
virtually arbitrary way
See, I disagree. It's not arbitrary at all. It's just not something that is in the usual list of things to talk about in MtG design, in part because WotC doesn't give enough attention to cards that aren't aligned with their (in-fact arbitrary) "ally-enemy" idea of color relationships. As for mechanical or flavorful distinguishing features between and , I don't know what to tell you. There are mechanics and flavor in that aren't in and mechanics in that aren't in . These two color combinations can be very distinct. Should I give you examples, maybe?

(Also, while I was typing this, Lorn articulated it better than I could.)
marioguy3 wrote:
1 year ago
I don't read Magic story and feel that should be one prerequisite of a MCC judge.
I don't either, but that's mainly because Magic's "story" isn't really a story. There are some amazing places explored in the cards, and some pretty-cool characters, but the "conflict" is like a bunch of action figures being mashed together.
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Post by OneAndOnly » 1 year ago

Outside of draft, how many players play a WUB card without access to all three colors? Especially with the heavy lean into Commander, which pretty much demands that you have to play it as a WUB card, not a W card with a UB mechanic you can't/don't use (which happened occasionally, in Ravnica era).

Why is the contest sieving out W/UB cards, but not B/UW or U/WB cards?

Or, put another way: Why am I designing a card this way?

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