First, Hit Your Land Drops (draft essay)

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BaronCappuccino
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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

An EDHRecCast episode converted my thought process towards solving as many deck problems as possible with more draw. Historically, if I wasn't seeing enough mana, I added more mana - same with removal and anything else. Now I add more draw. It really has worked wonders. I think switching to resilient ramp in tandem with running a much more robust ramp package has made my deck feel like it does what I expect every game.

EDIT: I meant to say resilient draw package above, but don't want to screw up subsequent quotes.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
An EDHRecCast episode converted my thought process towards solving as many deck problems as possible with more draw. Historically, if I wasn't seeing enough mana, I added more mana - same with removal and anything else. Now I add more draw. It really has worked wonders. I think switching to resilient ramp in tandem with running a much more robust ramp package has made my deck feel like it does what I expect every game.
You have to be careful with this approach not to tempo yourself out of the game (by spending all your mana drawing and looking at cards) but usually you can make that tempo up by finding the right things -- often a Hour of Revelation type card to catch you up.

Another thing I have been working really hard on conceptualizing is cards that let you cheat on mana in different ways. Hour of Revelation is a really good example. If I can spend WWW to invalidate everything everyone else has done for 3-4 turns while also deramping them, that's functionally ramping myself up to meet them. Obviously doesn't work as significantly if opponents are mana ramping.

But another example is stuff like Dread Return, or even Reanimate, and especially mass reanimation spells like Living Death. If your entire strategy is cheating stuff into play, how much do you really need to ramp? Can you think of playing a bunch of looting spells then Living Death as ramp, and maybe just cast it on 4 or 5 without ramping super hard?

I think we need to start taking a much more holistic view on our mana strategy in commander; when do you need to cast your spells, and what are you ramping into?

Hour of Revelation is a potential good example there actually, since it's often *better* the longer you let it stew. So maybe you're going to cast it on turn 4. Do you really need to ramp to do that at all, or is a single Three Visits type effect enough? You don't want to be playing signets into that too much.

Understanding tempo needs to go along with understanding acceleration I think, too. Like how much you spend / gain by ramping, and what things you do that might gain you tempo otherwise (e.g. rituals, cheat effects, stax pieces). Effects like Thalia, Heretic Cathar can be thought of as affecting your tempo by making people's lands enter tapped, for example. So curving THC into a 4 drop will play like you effectively de-ramping everyone in some respects.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Effects like Thalia, Heretic Cathar can be thought of as affecting your tempo by making people's lands enter tapped, for example. So curving THC into a 4 drop will play like you effectively de-ramping everyone in some respects.
Much like t1 Mishra's Workshop into 3sphere makes all those ramp spells look terrible.

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Post by gsgfdf » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
gsgfdf wrote:
1 year ago
What would you rather cast on turn two in a mono black deck, Leaden Myr or Night's Whisper?
Jet Medallion?
I chose the above as an example of average ramp vs average card advantage. Jet Medallion is only worse than Sol Ring / Mana Crypt on turn two.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

re: Night's Whisper vs. 2mv rock:

Unless I'm playing reanimator or maybe some other combo deck, I'm going with the rock. The Whisper is wasted on t2 assuming you don't have a t1 play since you inevitably have to discard to hand size. That said, Whisper is still good on t2 if you don't have a rock available.

On the other hand, I may be biased because my mono-black deck has a 4mv commander.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

I definitely like hitting land drops, but of course I want to ramp as well. Putting enough card draw, either single-shot or engines, has been vastly more important in hitting my land drops than replacing a few rocks with more lands. Though I typically play 36-38 lands, so I don't have a habit of playing too few. I still like the 8-10 ramp target, but have been trying to sprinkle in some value-oriented ramp instead of generic mana rocks lately. Though mono blue still has the most boring ramp package in my decks.

Though for many new or low experience players, ramp just for the sake of ramp seems to be something that is all too appealing. One guy plays way too much ramp and almost no card draw. Routinely in topdeck mode, and hardly ever interacts in the game because he top decks more lands and more ramp... but can spam his commander for days :smirk:

One thing I take away from this is that my late-game grindy reanimator control deck maybe shouldn't feel so bad if I don't out ramp the table. Maybe my 7-8 ramp pieces are fine and my Life from the Loam engine really is the best "ramp" card in the deck. I'm going to reevaluate my stance on ramp in that deck and focus a bit more on card draw, which is also lacks.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
Though mono blue still has the most boring ramp package in my decks.
Mono blue is definitely the hardest deck to ramp in, but it has two advantages:
1) cantrips make the world go round and you'll always hit your land drops
2) cost reducers tend to pay serious dividends, especially if the deck is heavily instants/sorceries

I would almost never play a mana rock in a mono blue deck unless it was artifact themed, because Sapphire Medallion / Baral, Chief of Compliance / Curious Homunculus // Voracious Reader will usually be better.

Even if I was permanent heavy I would play the 4-piece of Chrome Mox Mox Diamond Mana Crypt and Sol Ring, then add Moonsilver Key and Trinket Mage.

Trinket Mage for Mana Crypt will outperform basically any 2 drop rock in almost every deck, even some 4 cmc commaners (think Thassa, God of the Sea for example, where being able to blink trinket mage immediately will pay for taking the turn off).

In a permanent-heavy mono blue deck, Expedition Map for Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx also shines a lot :)

and Dreamscape Artist / Myriad Landscape sometimes OK too.

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Post by PrimevalCommander » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
Though mono blue still has the most boring ramp package in my decks.
snip - really solid blue ramp advice
It is a no-creature Talrand, Sky Summoner deck ;) . But there are some good cost reducers as artifacts and enchantments, but they seem to be MV 4+ where the creatures are cheaper. It also doesn't play many low mv cantrips just to prioritize actually going up on cards, instead of breaking even. Think Think Twice and Deep Analysis instead of Preordain and Anticipate. It is built as a more casual draw-go deck meant to start slow and build cards and mana over time. But with all the boring 2mv rocks, I can still get ramping pretty good. I think I'm still playing Thran Dynamo. Sapphire Medallion is there, but I didn't get the others cheap enough to have any copies of the other medallions.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

PrimevalCommander wrote:
1 year ago
It is a no-creature Talrand, Sky Summoner deck . But there are some good cost reducers as artifacts and enchantments, but they seem to be MV 4+ where the creatures are cheaper. It also doesn't play many low mv cantrips just to prioritize actually going up on cards, instead of breaking even. It is built as a more casual draw-go deck meant to start slow and build cards and mana over time. But with all the boring 2mv rocks, I can still get ramping pretty good. I think I'm still playing Thran Dynamo. Sapphire Medallion is there, but I didn't get the others cheap enough to have any copies of the other medallions.
Yeah I think that's easy money on cost reducers, sadly a bunch of the great ones are on creatures.

"Cast it from your bin / top for free" are some other fairly decent ways to "ramp" in monoblue spellslinger, stuff like Spelltwine usually nets way more than 6 mana in spells, so behaves like ramp.

And then land untapping stuff like Rewind / Frantic Search / Turnabout / High Tide / Reset can be pretty solid.

Oh, don't forget Primal Amulet // Primal Wellspring that card is banaaaaaanas and Search for Azcanta // Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin ramps too

and finally Walking Atlas usually supremely overperforms in monoblue because you have extra cards all the time...but is a creature :P doh

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Saw this thread from a magic pro on commander and figured I'd share
Sam Black is a madman. I'm all for playing more lands (I average 40 these days just because mana screw really rustles my jimmies) but this man is playing 45 in a low cmc aggro Raffine. I was playing 33 when I took my version apart and still occasionally felt swamped because of how fast the deck filtered itself.

I wonder if he's right though. In Dirk's Phelddagrif, there's no ramp whatsoever, just the ~45 lands. While playing it, I never feel behind mana-wise until/unless I miss land drops, which is pretty rare with 45 of the damn things. I also think rocks are less good than they used to be, given that a lot of the common anti-treasure tech also claims rocks as collateral damage. I need to have a think on this.
You really really need to hit your 3-5 land drops in raffine to get the engine going, Im not math wizard but I think this is too low. I dont dont like rock ramo in raffine at all (maybe Ornithopter of Paradise ??) but id rather play 2 Savannah Lions than one Arcane Signet ,

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
You really really need to hit your 3-5 land drops in raffine to get the engine going, Im not math wizard but I think this is too low. I dont dont like rock ramo in raffine at all (maybe Ornithopter of Paradise ??) but id rather play 2 Savannah Lions than one Arcane Signet ,
Yeah you really never want to be playing rocks if your goal is to make WUB on turn 3 and also have 2 bodies out (ideally) before then; the odds that a Flying Men is better than Sol Ring are so high that I think even ring/crypt are pretty questionable (Unless you're on a robots build).

The sequence of Sol Ring into Arcane Signet on turn 1 is good, but not appreciably better than playing 3 total 1 drops into Raffine (you end up with the same number of creatures most likely, but having spent 2 extra cards to get there that you'd rather be able to discard).

competitive Edric, Spymaster of Trest decks generally cut Sol Ring back in 2007 and I maintain that's probably still correct :)

(I would still be in Mox Diamond Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox likely, personally, especially since Raffine can't play Collector Ouphe)

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Post by duducrash » 1 year ago

I think moxes are fine, Mox Amber could be a include, but TBH I was playing 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben effects, I think you could be fine with 0 ramp, maybe that white based catch up?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

duducrash wrote:
1 year ago
I think moxes are fine, Mox Amber could be a include, but TBH I was playing 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben effects, I think you could be fine with 0 ramp, maybe that white based catch up?
I would personally play all the two drop catchup guys and weathered wayfarer. Loyal war hound and kotwo and scholar and deep gnome.

That said raffine would be fine with like 20 evasive one drops. He's just so flexible to build.

I'd like reanimate effects I think and some huge beefs myself.

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

I found this topic very useful and I'm quite a fan of that philosophy for ramping in commander.

I played EDH since a few years and my personnal experience and deck building approach convincted me that mana rocks are really the worst kind of ramp you can put in your deck. (Don't even talk about 3 mana rocks, never in the world I will play such card, in any deck). (But as Sam Black said, Ring, Crypt and stuff are at different level).

This is so much powerful and consistent to cast thing like Three Visits, Nature's lore or Rampant Growth. Or to seriously consider mana dorks that help you play powerful 3 drops on turn 2.

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

In regards to this topic, I would like to share the decklist of my pet deck: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1789294-yarok/fr

It's a classic Yarok value deck. The main goal is to use multiple Pod effects and cheap reanimation spells in order to easily flood your opponents with the value you can accumulate with things like Uro and Risen Reef (to be short).

I know there is some expert here in term of deckbuilfing! So, what do you think of the ramping package, the draw engines and cards selection I choosed for that particular deck, regarding this particular discussion ?

If it's not the right place to discuss this, my apologies and I will replace it somewhere else.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
In regards to this topic, I would like to share the decklist of my pet deck: https://deckstats.net/decks/144003/1789294-yarok/fr

It's a classic Yarok value deck. The main goal is to use multiple Pod effects and cheap reanimation spells in order to easily flood your opponents with the value you can accumulate with things like Uro and Risen Reef (to be short).

I know there is some expert here in term of deckbuilfing! So, what do you think of the ramping package, the draw engines and cards selection I choosed for that particular deck, regarding this particular discussion ?

If it's not the right place to discuss this, my apologies and I will replace it somewhere else.
So you have by my count:
4 x 0-1 cmc ramp (culling ritual, crypt, ring, lotus)
5 x 1 cmc ramp
2 x 2 cmc ramp (lotus cobra, coiling oracle)
4 x 3 cmc ramp (uro, reef, provisioner, wood elves)

You could consider unearth/reanimate/neoform/eldritch evolution/journey/pod to be part of the ramp package too I think,

I'm not sure how I feel about this ramp package. It feels okay I guess but fairly inconsistent at getting Yarok out. Yarok is, in general, an extremely hard general to build a ramp/fixing package for because he's expensive and wants some protection (though you can reanimate him I guess).

I'm not sure how I would approach it but I don't think I would run as many mana dorks, and I would probably run more landsy stuff and more etb stuff myself. I'm kind of a sucker for Exploration.dec though.

It's tough because with the reanimating package I really want to play Sakura-Tribe Elder (unearthing it is great) but it doesn't play well with pod.

Without very many early game card advantage spells, I feel like this deck is probably really prone to stalling out if there's an early game sweeper, which is the big problem with mana dork strategies in general. But this deck seems to be at such a high power level that you kinda need to play dorks to get fast enough (if you're not going to play landfall)>

My gut instinct is that this deck is trying to do too many things and that it's mostly just a worse Tymna the Weaver + Thrasios, Triton Hero pod deck (editor's note: or a worse Muldrotha, the Gravetide pod) that doesn't really achieve that much advantage from playing Yarok, the Desecrated. You do most of your stuff before Yarok comes out.

The Landfall stuff is particularly weird to me, doesn't seem like htere are enough ways to reliably do the stuff that makes Tatyova, Benthic Druid good?

Not playing Palinchron feels mostly wrong to me, but again I might be missing something.

--

If I were to start making changes, I think I'd be on subtle stuff like adding a little more support for Lotus Cobra / Tireless Provisioner. A small landfall package like adding Field of the Dead, Life from the Loam, Exploration, Arboreal Grazer?

Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor feel like automatic to me, significant upside over Fyndhorn Elves.

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

@pokken That's why I like to discuss with you about deckbuilding. I found your advices always accurates and well founded.
You could consider unearth/reanimate/neoform/eldritch evolution/journey/pod to be part of the ramp package too I think,
I thinks yes. My list can easily sacrifice a cheap creature and reanimate it to ramp.
I'm not sure how I feel about this ramp package. It feels okay I guess but fairly inconsistent at getting Yarok out. Yarok is, in general, an extremely hard general to build a ramp/fixing package for because he's expensive and wants some protection (though you can reanimate him I guess).
Yes it's hard to have Yarok out fast and be able to protect it in the same time. That's why I have access to multiple cards to reanimate it at cheap cost.
I'm not sure how I would approach it but I don't think I would run as many mana dorks, and I would probably run more landsy stuff and more etb stuff myself. I'm kind of a sucker for Exploration.dec though.
This idea caught my attention and I think you're right. In EDH, games to be long and dorks are often colateral damages of others' strategies. So I can definitely imagine Exploration and Arboreal Grazer acting like pseudo dorks. The main difference are: they allow you to put more land on the battlefield and it's more resilient to the long game. I think I won't see a major difference if, let's say, I swicth 5 dorks for 1 exploration + 1 arboreal Grazer + 3 lands. Plus, this could support stuff like Tatyova.

Without very many early game card advantage spells, I feel like this deck is probably really prone to stalling out if there's an early game sweeper, which is the big problem with mana dork strategies in general. But this deck seems to be at such a high power level that you kinda need to play dorks to get fast enough (if you're not going to play landfall)>
Surprisingly, I had a few percentage of my games where that scenario happenned. Maybe because my list packs 2 and 3 mana "value", "draw" or "card selection" cards (Uro, Reef, Strix, Coiling oracle, Ice-fang coatl, evoked mulldrifter, etc). It's not a real card advantage engine spell but it should be enough, major part of the time, to help you land every turn. I had more scenario where I missed a land drop (and it's dramatic) than scenario where the deck was out of gas. (In regard to this concern, that's maybe wise to go toward more lands and explorations, rather than counting on dorks).
My gut instinct is that this deck is trying to do too many things and that it's mostly just a worse Tymna the Weaver + Thrasios, Triton Hero pod deck (editor's note: or a worse Muldrotha, the Gravetide pod) that doesn't really achieve that much advantage from playing Yarok, the Desecrated. You do most of your stuff before Yarok comes out.
You are right here. But to be honest, I don't want to build a cEDH Yarok deck. My meta is playing with friends that like high powered deck but we are not really playing cEDH lists. This list is really a pet list with a "pet" selection of cards. I'm stubborn of willing to abuse Risen Reef and Uro because I think it's fun (and powerful too). I just like the absurdity of having like 4 copies of Reef on the battlefield or being able to have 5 or 6 times Uro entering the battlefield in a raw. It's my taste regarding this sultai pile. I find more enjoyable to submerge my opponents with tons of value rather than win on the spot with a classic sultai combo.
The Landfall stuff is particularly weird to me, doesn't seem like htere are enough ways to reliably do the stuff that makes Tatyova, Benthic Druid good?
Tatyova is just a draw engine. It's totaly absurd with Kodama of the east tree and Yarok out. You just put your whole deck on the battlefield. I choosed to let her in because it's just "fun" to be able to have such a sequence. But now that I'm considering your point of view (Exploration and more lands), she deserves more attention. (At some point I was wondering if I should just cut it to run stuff like Phyrexian Delver instead).
Not playing Palinchron feels mostly wrong to me, but again I might be missing something.
I used to play it but I found it pretty useless and expensive. You can going infinite or close to with so many things in Yarok. And again, purely a personnal choice to not going directly into the infinite combo line.

--
If I were to start making changes, I think I'd be on subtle stuff like adding a little more support for Lotus Cobra / Tireless Provisioner. A small landfall package like adding Field of the Dead, Life from the Loam, Exploration, Arboreal Grazer?
Definitely some cards I want to test right now.
Green Sun's Zenith + Dryad Arbor feel like automatic to me, significant upside over Fyndhorn Elves.
I could give a try to this. Not a big fan of having a land that can be treated as a creature.

-----

That was a good discussion about a particular list. Thanks again for your thoughts! I will be glad to furthter discuss this :)

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Post by Reya » 1 year ago

The first few attempts with Exploration, Arboreal Grazer, Life from the loam, Mox Diamond, and 2 more lands, seems to work pretty well.

I clearly see Exploration and Arboreal Grazer acting like pseudo dorks. The difference is they give us a resilient ramping. Packing more lands and Mox Diamond help a lot too. Mox is way better than classic rocks (it's clearly part of the "power" team).

I think this approach of experimenting with less dorks, less rocks and more resilient stuff is a very good way testing multiple deckbuilding aspects.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Reya wrote:
1 year ago
The first few attempts with Exploration, Arboreal Grazer, Life from the loam, Mox Diamond, and 2 more lands, seems to work pretty well.

I clearly see Exploration and Arboreal Grazer acting like pseudo dorks. The difference is they give us a resilient ramping. Packing more lands and Mox Diamond help a lot too. Mox is way better than classic rocks (it's clearly part of the "power" team).

I think this approach of experimenting with less dorks, less rocks and more resilient stuff is a very good way testing multiple deckbuilding aspects.
Yeah diamond is great, I should have mentioned it but I assumed it was already in your list for some reason :)

I think you'll definitely wind up liking that approach better. it's really frustrating that there aren't more extra land drop effects, we could really stand to have one at 2 mana. Almost all of them are either 1) tap to do it, or 2) 3 cmc, which gets awkward.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
it's really frustrating that there aren't more extra land drop effects, we could really stand to have one at 2 mana. Almost all of them are either 1) tap to do it, or 2) 3 cmc, which gets awkward.
Yes, those Lands decks definitely need all the help they can get.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, those Lands decks definitely need all the help they can get.
Eh, I mean it's pretty clear cut that it's a much weaker strategy at the top levels (try to find a CEDH deck playing Exploration, I'll wait...it's Tatyova, Benthic Druid and it's not very good:P).

But my lament of the lack of flexibility in land drop packages can exist independently of whether lands decks are a problem in casual commander or not :P

There're like 7 copies of Farseek-esque effects you can play and 3-4 of Cultivate and then 4-5 of Skyshroud Claim adjacent. And mana rocks and dorks are even more flexible.

That said I think lands, in general, is a much worse strategy than people think. it's hard to deal with because it has small attack surface, but it's mostly pretty bad.


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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
it's mostly pretty bad.
viewtopic.php?t=40694
I'm not sure I get the implication :) I like lots of things that are pretty bad. That essay covers a lot of the ways in which it's pretty bad as well.

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