First, Hit Your Land Drops (draft essay)

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Post by Segrus » 4 years ago

I think the hardest lesson I've learned with Commander is getting in enough card draw. Starting out with a '40 lands, then subtract about 1-4 depending on ramp' mindset was nice, but stuff I built never really took off or worked until I got sweet draw effects. I don't think it's always clear cut on which card draw to use especially since I'm one who doesn't like to slam staples into every deck (like Necropotence into everything Black, even if it is considered correct).

Getting the hang of judging correct draw effects has absolutely smoothed out the land problems I've had in the past.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Saw this thread from a magic pro on commander and figured I'd share

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Post by TheAmericanSpirit » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Saw this thread from a magic pro on commander and figured I'd share
Sam Black is a madman. I'm all for playing more lands (I average 40 these days just because mana screw really rustles my jimmies) but this man is playing 45 in a low cmc aggro Raffine. I was playing 33 when I took my version apart and still occasionally felt swamped because of how fast the deck filtered itself.

I wonder if he's right though. In Dirk's Phelddagrif, there's no ramp whatsoever, just the ~45 lands. While playing it, I never feel behind mana-wise until/unless I miss land drops, which is pretty rare with 45 of the damn things. I also think rocks are less good than they used to be, given that a lot of the common anti-treasure tech also claims rocks as collateral damage. I need to have a think on this.
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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

Rocks are a tool. Sometimes they're appropriate, sometimes they're not, but to say that rocks are a trap because you could otherwise be playing something else that generates value over time is uh, pretty specious.

%$#% it. I'm making a thread.

PS - Be skeptical of anyone who thinks MLD is a solution to land-based ramp.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

I actually think the value over time point is a really good one. Playing a mystic remora or sylvan library or even just ponder into impulse is often a better early game play than vomiting your hand. This is actually a point I made in this essay originally which is that ramp can often conflict with on curve early turn plays.

Obviously jamming all the broken 0 cmc and 1 cmc rocks and such changes the calculus there since you can do both. It's usually right and more powerful.

But I maintain it's often wrong to jam too much of the 2 cmc stuff, especially without the power rocks and dorks, and a lot of decks are better off not having the second layer of 2 cmc ramp even with moxen.

Yeah, re: mld - people really don't understand Armageddon.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I actually think the value over time point is a really good one. Playing a mystic remora or sylvan library or even just ponder into impulse is often a better early game play than vomiting your hand. This is actually a point I made in this essay originally which is that ramp can often conflict with on curve early turn plays.
Obviously, a broken card draw engine early on is stronger than moderate ramp in most cases, but assuming roughly equally powered decks, would you rather play Sol Ring or Portent on turn 1? Neither are fair comparisons.

As for Ponder/Preordain and the other cheap, good cantrips, that's a deck-by-deck decision. Some decks would be better served spending their early game developing their hand, and some decks would be better off developing their mana. And realistically, those are the two most relevant choices that you can perform early on that have mid to long-term consequences on the rest of the game. A turn 2 generic aggressive creature is almost certainly inconsequential, but a turn 2 Talisman of Indulgence in Prosper, Tome-Bound is noteworthy.

The problem isn't that rocks are bad, it's that many decks that jam rocks aren't equipped to take advantage of that ramp and as a result are wasting deck slots and tempo on ramping when they could be doing something else more relevant instead. They're a genuine opportunity cost that people don't consider. But the truth is that most EDH players are real bad at Magic, so...

I do tend to agree that most decks outside of cEDH should be running more lands now, though.

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Post by Legend » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Rocks are a tool. Sometimes they're appropriate, sometimes they're not, but to say that rocks are a trap because you could otherwise be playing something else that generates value over time is uh, pretty specious.
I think it's hyperbole/clickbait to get views. It could wind up frustrating people who can't see through it.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

I identify with this. Even under Obosh, I don't play rocks to ramp ahead (thawing glaciers is far more resilient) in Gut, because I can curve out at five. Cantrip fixing that turns into a skelie latre is much more potent as I'm not down a card and can keep pressuring life totals while the rest of the table durdles around with their talismans and signets. Give me more Astrolabes, less 2+ feel bads when players force every rec sage variant into their decks. I used to clamour so hard for enemy talismans, and then got excited for them in brown border but I don't even play them anymore because of this.

...Give us the enemy borderposts already, tbh. That's what we really should have been demanding from the start.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
...Give us the enemy borderposts already, tbh. That's what we really should have been demanding from the start.
dude I feel the desire to do borderpost.dec so much :) I played Restore Balance a bit in modern and it was so neat.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
Obviously, a broken card draw engine early on is stronger than moderate ramp in most cases, but assuming roughly equally powered decks, would you rather play Sol Ring or Portent on turn 1? Neither are fair comparisons.
So I would say, even a *decent* card draw engine is likely to outperform moderate ramp. Mindblade Render or Oakhame Adversary as examples but there are a *lot* of ways to get "draw a card each turn" off of 2 CMC spells these days. Even Night's Whisper.
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
A turn 2 generic aggressive creature is almost certainly inconsequential, but a turn 2 Talisman of Indulgence in Prosper, Tome-Bound is noteworthy.
I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy; a turn 2 aggressive creature is not the alternative, a turn 2 setup or engine card is the alternative. If you have a Robber of the Rich or even a Night's Whisper it might be better to do that (situationally).

Personally, I think if you can't turn 1 signet a high percentage of the time I wouldn't bother playing them. That means running at minimum the following, plus probably SSG/Dark Rit/Lotus Petal.
If you're not on the turn 1 signet plan, I think signets are a trap, because it means your game is going to go long enough that someone is going to blow up your rocks.
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
The problem isn't that rocks are bad, it's that many decks that jam rocks aren't equipped to take advantage of that ramp and as a result are wasting deck slots and tempo on ramping when they could be doing something else more relevant instead. They're a genuine opportunity cost that people don't consider. But the truth is that most EDH players are real bad at Magic, so...
Yep, agree with this for sure. I think people mostly don't consider the alternatives. I think that most casual decks (not on the t1 signet plan) would be better off finding other ways to ramp than 2 cmc rocks most of the time.

I'll return to the Prosper example because a 4 cmc general that generates CA when he comes out is pretty much the poster child for 2 CMC ramp --

I think a casual prosper deck could definitely justify running 2 cmc rocks, they're fine, but I think it could also be fine to focus on endgame ramp with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Cabal Coffers. Prosper's "make a treasure" ability is a lot more powerful than his "end step draw a card" ability, so being able to pre-exile a bunch of cards and then go off right when you cast Prosper makes a lot more sense to me than rushing him out to start accruing 1 card a turn.

Jam out Coffers, get 10 mana on turn 6, cast Prosper and go to pound town with all the stuff you've exiled.

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
So I would say, even a *decent* card draw engine is likely to outperform moderate ramp. Mindblade Render or Oakhame Adversary as examples but there are a *lot* of ways to get "draw a card each turn" off of 2 CMC spells these days. Even Night's Whisper.
This is a more equitable and thus more interesting comparison. I do disagree, though. Green Bob and Bob Bob withstanding since they're just excellent cards, I think mediocre card draw creatures like Mindblade Render aren't very effective. Sure, on t2 you may draw 2-3 cards from it typically, but past that point either every opponent has a bigger blocker or a board wipe has been played. In the mid to late game, though? I think interpreting Render's textbox as an Arena is a bit optimistic. Night's Whisper scales much better, but on t2 without a t1 play Ransack the Lab is much better since you're going to discard to hand size with Whisper.
I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy; a turn 2 aggressive creature is not the alternative, a turn 2 setup or engine card is the alternative. If you have a Robber of the Rich or even a Night's Whisper it might be better to do that (situationally).
My point was to illustrate that ramp and selrction are, excluding broken options (which are comparatively few and far between, thus rendering them too inconsistent for this analysis), basically your only options. Ramp is set up, which is why I find the argument that rocks don't accrue value over time to be so absurd.
If you're not on the turn 1 signet plan, I think signets are a trap, because it means your game is going to go long enough that someone is going to blow up your rocks.
I'm not sure what your expected meta is, but in my experience playing in an unknown FLGS/Spelltable meta, my rocks don't get blown up every single game. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but the assumption that my rocks will get blown up is a bit farfetched. And even if it's a realistic possibility, in my decks that have relied on rocks heavily, typically a blue-based control deck like Elsha of the Infinite, Nicol Bolas, the Ravager, or especially Tasigur, the Golden Fang when I was running Dramatic Scepter as a win condition, I protect them with counter magic.

Creature wipes are much, much more common than artifact wipes. I mean yeah sometimes someone drops an Hour of Revelation or something but I'm more like to see Wrath of Gods than Shatterstorms.
I'll return to the Prosper example because a 4 cmc general that generates CA when he comes out is pretty much the poster child for 2 CMC ramp --

I think a casual prosper deck could definitely justify running 2 cmc rocks, they're fine, but I think it could also be fine to focus on endgame ramp with Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx or Cabal Coffers. Prosper's "make a treasure" ability is a lot more powerful than his "end step draw a card" ability, so being able to pre-exile a bunch of cards and then go off right when you cast Prosper makes a lot more sense to me than rushing him out to start accruing 1 card a turn.

Jam out Coffers, get 10 mana on turn 6, cast Prosper and go to pound town with all the stuff you've exiled.
¿Por qué no los dos? Just make sure you're equipped to handle that mana.

The Prosper deck I've seen in person does both, treating the first Prosper as a value engine and the second as the explosive enabler.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
The Prosper deck I've seen in person does both, treating the first Prosper as a value engine and the second as the explosive enabler.
I might just be slightly biased but what I've seen happen the most with prosper is him spam dying then costing 8 when they're ready to go off :P
TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not sure what your expected meta is, but in my experience playing in an unknown FLGS/Spelltable meta, my rocks don't get blown up every single game. I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all, but the assumption that my rocks will get blown up is a bit farfetched. And even if it's a realistic possibility, in my decks that have relied on rocks heavily, typically a blue-based control deck like Elsha of the Infinite, Nicol Bolas, the Ravager, or especially Tasigur, the Golden Fang when I was running Dramatic Scepter as a win condition, I protect them with counter magic.

Creature wipes are much, much more common than artifact wipes. I mean yeah sometimes someone drops an Hour of Devastation or something but I'm more like to see Wrath of Gods than Shatterstorms.
I suspect it might be because I'm the Hour of Revelation / Bane of Progress guy but I don't remember the last time I made it through a game with a mana rock that survived the whole game. It's not always me either, I see a lot of people packing Farewell these days, or Vandalblast or By Force or Heliod's Intervention.

But the point is more that in a moderate to high powered casual game, where people are running Azorius Signet but not Chrome Mox, I think the likelihood your rocks eventually get blown up or shut off is high. Probably approaching 50% in the wild.

*online* might be different, because people whine about you doing anything but playing solitaire online :P

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Post by TheGildedGoose » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
I might just be slightly biased but what I've seen happen the most with prosper is him spam dying then costing 8 when they're ready to go off :P
Maybe printing a card advantage and mana engine the command zone was a mistake.
I suspect it might be because I'm the Hour of Revelation / Bane of Progress guy but I don't remember the last time I made it through a game with a mana rock that survived the whole game. It's not always me either, I see a lot of people packing Farewell these days, or Vandalblast or By Force or Heliod's Intervention.

But the point is more that in a moderate to high powered casual game, where people are running Azorius Signet but not Chrome Mox, I think the likelihood your rocks eventually get blown up or shut off is high. Probably approaching 50% in the wild.
My experience is wildly different. I think By Force is underplayed, and those other cards are obviously powerful, but something else to consider is that some decks don't particularly mind having their rocks wiped in the mid or late-game. I'm thinking primarily about decks that want to ramp into a commander with a mana value of four. Sure, it's not ideal, and you're behind in card advantage and mana now, but by and large you've already accomplished your goal of ramping into your commander and, most likely, other spells as well.

50% seems high to me. I see those spells a lot because I too am the type of person to play them quite a bit as I favor control decks, but I tend to eschew rocks in those deck because of the obvious anti-synergy.
*online* might be different, because people whine about you doing anything but playing solitaire online :P
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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

TheAmericanSpirit wrote:
1 year ago
pokken wrote:
1 year ago
Saw this thread from a magic pro on commander and figured I'd share
Sam Black is a madman. I'm all for playing more lands (I average 40 these days just because mana screw really rustles my jimmies) but this man is playing 45 in a low cmc aggro Raffine. I was playing 33 when I took my version apart and still occasionally felt swamped because of how fast the deck filtered itself.

I wonder if he's right though. In Dirk's Phelddagrif, there's no ramp whatsoever, just the ~45 lands. While playing it, I never feel behind mana-wise until/unless I miss land drops, which is pretty rare with 45 of the damn things. I also think rocks are less good than they used to be, given that a lot of the common anti-treasure tech also claims rocks as collateral damage. I need to have a think on this.
Interesting. I wonder if he's right. I only play 32 lands in Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal because most of my cards are evasive creatures that cost 1 or 2 mana, and then I usually get Tymna out and can draw lands. In addition to mana rocks I play ramp like Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort, Knight of the White Orchid, Edgewalker, and Smothering Tithe.

The last game I played my Orzhov Signet was stolen by a Hellkite Tyrant and then my opponents kept killing Tymna so I wasn't able to draw into land drops.

I've been looking at what cards to cut to bring my land count to 36. Is the right answer just to cut Orzhov Signet, Talisman of Dominance, Fellwar Stone, and Arcane Signet?

I did like mana rocks in Kaalia of the Vast and Ghen, Arcanum Weaver that don't have access to green and the rocks can help with ramp and mana fixing.
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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

TheGildedGoose wrote:
1 year ago
My experience is wildly different. I think By Force is underplayed, and those other cards are obviously powerful, but something else to consider is that some decks don't particularly mind having their rocks wiped in the mid or late-game. I'm thinking primarily about decks that want to ramp into a commander with a mana value of four. Sure, it's not ideal, and you're behind in card advantage and mana now, but by and large you've already accomplished your goal of ramping into your commander and, most likely, other spells as well.
I'd agree that By Force is under played, most likely because Vandalblast|tsr is often superior and Meltdown is quite adept at being more asymmetrical::mana spent. So By Force just happens to be the odd man out, because how many pure artifact wipes do you need? Although for sure neither of these cards are "strictly" superior to the others, of course.

I myself prefer a Titania's Song|4ed since it just stops the treasures completely as well as embarrass all the sword decks (equipment that's a creature can't equip a creature).

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago

Interesting. I wonder if he's right. I only play 32 lands in Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal because most of my cards are evasive creatures that cost 1 or 2 mana, and then I usually get Tymna out and can draw lands. In addition to mana rocks I play ramp like Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort, Knight of the White Orchid, Edgewalker, and Smothering Tithe.

The last game I played my Orzhov Signet was stolen by a Hellkite Tyrant and then my opponents kept killing Tymna so I wasn't able to draw into land drops.

I've been looking at what cards to cut to bring my land count to 36. Is the right answer just to cut Orzhov Signet, Talisman of Dominance, Fellwar Stone, and Arcane Signet?

I did like mana rocks in Kaalia of the Vast and Ghen, Arcanum Weaver that don't have access to green and the rocks can help with ramp and mana fixing.
In a tymna deck you should 100% not play any 2 drop rocks. Chrome mox
Mox diamond and sol ring/crypt (although the expensive ones are a money call)

the funny thing about tymna as a casual deck is she doesn't even really love mana dorks that much. Much like Varina and Winona, curving 1 2 3 into her is usually the best thing to do since you draw cards immediately.

Ymmv imo etc

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Post by NZB2323 » 1 year ago

pokken wrote:
1 year ago
NZB2323 wrote:
1 year ago

Interesting. I wonder if he's right. I only play 32 lands in Tymna the Weaver/Ravos, Soultender cleric tribal because most of my cards are evasive creatures that cost 1 or 2 mana, and then I usually get Tymna out and can draw lands. In addition to mana rocks I play ramp like Legion's Landing // Adanto, the First Fort, Knight of the White Orchid, Edgewalker, and Smothering Tithe.

The last game I played my Orzhov Signet was stolen by a Hellkite Tyrant and then my opponents kept killing Tymna so I wasn't able to draw into land drops.

I've been looking at what cards to cut to bring my land count to 36. Is the right answer just to cut Orzhov Signet, Talisman of Dominance, Fellwar Stone, and Arcane Signet?

I did like mana rocks in Kaalia of the Vast and Ghen, Arcanum Weaver that don't have access to green and the rocks can help with ramp and mana fixing.
In a tymna deck you should 100% not play any 2 drop rocks. Chrome mox
Mox diamond and sol ring/crypt (although the expensive ones are a money call)

the funny thing about tymna as a casual deck is she doesn't even really love mana dorks that much. Much like Varina and Winona, curving 1 2 3 into her is usually the best thing to do since you draw cards immediately.

Ymmv imo etc
Would you say the same thing is true for a casual Edric, Spymaster of Trest deck? I have an Edric deck that is only commons in the 99 that doesn't run any mana rocks, but it does run ramp with mana dorks, Priest of Titania, Farseek, Nature's Lore, and Three Visits. The thing is if I were to cut them, there's a limited pool of cards I could replace them with because I can only use commons. I guess I could replace them with lands though, which is what this topic is about.
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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

In my opinion yes.

Lots of different takes on that but I'm not 100% sure I play 2 cmc ramp at all in edric. I'd rather curve 1 drops. A mana dork on 2 means your turn 3 is going to want to slam that for dorks but you might rather attack. Its awkward.

1 drop dorks are not bad since you can sometimes get 4 dudes out on 3 which is nice (dork, fmx3 then edric on 3). So I think I play those. But probably not any that don't make colored mana

If your elf count is high enough maybe the endgame upside on priest is enough? But rampant growth effects are a hard no for me

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

I've converted from rocks and dorks to land ramp like Cultivate, and I don't think I'm going back. The social construct is better than a Teferi's Protection when you're ramping basics. Let the unwashed masses devote resources to protecting their mana sources. Dealing with my ramp is frowned upon, and you can't beat that.

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Post by 3drinks » 1 year ago

BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
I've converted from rocks and dorks to land ramp like Cultivate, and I don't think I'm going back. The social construct is better than a Teferi's Protection when you're ramping basics. Let the unwashed masses devote resources to protecting their mana sources. Dealing with my ramp is frowned upon, and you can't beat that.
And therein lies the problem. Stop exploiting the situation and let's quit demonizing MLD. Smh

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Post by Maluko » 1 year ago

Please show this post to The Command Zone. I think they are one of the reasons why this obsession with mana rocks and ramp in Commander started to increase, to the detriment of players' enjoyment of the format. Your thesis and Sam Black's thread match my experience, and I can confidently say that my gameplay enjoyment increased when I started replacing mana ramp spells (unless they're on theme with the deck) with more lands and card draw/filter spells. It can also be a metagame issue: it's not uncommon to see ramp sources in the games I play get destroyed, sometimes very early, and then watch as their owners can't do much for the rest of the game because they kept their hands counting on those ramp permanents.

Seriously, ramp is overrated. Do not buy into The Command Zone's deckbuilding philosophy of placing 10+ ramp spells in your deck. At least try replacing them in one of your decks and see how it goes. Focus on (thematic) card draw, Impulse or scry spells instead. You will notice the difference in gameplay enjoyment, believe me.

Another tendency that I've noticed in recent years is that artifact ramp is getting riskier to run because of treasures. I've begun noticing an increasing amount of artifact hate in games because people have noticed how crazy powerful treasures are. Stony Silence, Disciple of the Vault, Structural Assault, Manglehorn, I've started seeing these cards more frequently recently exclusively because of treasures. And with Powerstones now added to the game, I expect the artifact hate will continue to increase.
3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
And therein lies the problem. Stop exploiting the situation and let's quit demonizing MLD. Smh
The problem isn't MLD per se, but the MLD that is currently available in Magic. Cards like Armageddon, Ruination and Winter Orb are frowned upon, and for good reason. But I think cards like Fall of the Thran, Tectonic Hellion, and the new Urza's Sylex should be encouraged, because they punish the greedy land ramp players while minimizing the damage to players who are not playing green. In other words, the problem is the lack of existing cards that punish land ramp decks while leaving room for everyone to cast spells and play a fairer game of Magic. Fortunately, it appears that Wizards is slowly understanding this, and has been trying new attempts at solving the situation. I hope they continue this trend so that green stops benefiting so much from the existent MLD hate in casual play.

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Post by BaronCappuccino » 1 year ago

3drinks wrote:
1 year ago
BaronCappuccino wrote:
1 year ago
I've converted from rocks and dorks to land ramp like Cultivate, and I don't think I'm going back. The social construct is better than a Teferi's Protection when you're ramping basics. Let the unwashed masses devote resources to protecting their mana sources. Dealing with my ramp is frowned upon, and you can't beat that.
And therein lies the problem. Stop exploiting the situation and let's quit demonizing MLD. Smh
I'm half with you. Let's quit demonising MLD (and stax and everything else we demonise). That said, the best way to correct a problem is to abuse it. Resolve that Vandalblast on everyone's ramp and wag a patronising finger at anyone who dares return the favor. This is the way. Truth is, I wouldn't complain one bit about an Armageddon, but it's fun to poke the system.

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

Meh. Let's remember that, by and large, land ramp has a lot of disadvantages over mana rocks. It's a lot slower and its synergies are worse (artifact synergies are frigging awesome, lookin' at you Clock of Omens.dec). Land ramp's resilience in commander is completely 100% fair, even if no one runs MLD or anti-land stax, because you pay a significant synergy and tempo cost for it.

Llanowar Elves.dec and signet.dec both have major advantages; it's a LOT easier to turn those things into win conditions and they play at a higher tempo rate.

The reason people don't play MLD is not because it's demonized it's because it's generally pretty %$#%. You'll get blown the hell out most of the time, someone will have an answer to whatever you think sets you up to win or an answer, or a way to blow it back on you or whatever. I've seen so many people lose after trying to MLD.

The few deck configurations that can really take advantage of MLD are pushing the social contract *because it requires counterspells to stop* and everyone needs some number of lands. But by and large that is a secondary concern--in most environments, MLD is pretty mediocre unless you design specifically to make it asymmetrical (e.g. enchantress decks with Jokulhaups, or those looking to combo with Boros Charm or something).

I've mostly made the decision to ramp in a slower and more resilient fashion because I like how it plays, but let's not pretend I am not paying a price for that -- and it surely is not presumption on the social contract in any way.

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Post by gsgfdf » 1 year ago

What would you rather cast on turn two in a mono black deck, Leaden Myr or Night's Whisper?

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

gsgfdf wrote:
1 year ago
What would you rather cast on turn two in a mono black deck, Leaden Myr or Night's Whisper?
Night's Whisper like, always. for me anyway. But if i'm on mono-black my strategy is Cabal Coffers and so I want to guarantee hitting my land drops and up my odds of finding coffers/nykthos. Turn 1 Expedition Map turn 2 crack map is the way to play ;)

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