[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Arkmer
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Post by Arkmer » 1 month ago

I feel as though the thread is silent because we all quietly agree with the incoming Inverter of Truth or Thassa's Oracle ban. I certainly have no argument.

Does anyone think anything else will go? Maybe a hit to Lotus Breach as well?

Honestly, I think the line of text that wins the game is unfortunate. I've been having fun playing both cards separately in various things. Inverter can stack your deck and set you up for a push if you know what you're doing, Oracle is fun to flicker with new Thassa for deck sifting nnonsense. I'll be sort of sad to see either go at this point.

If Lotus Breach takes a hit I won't shed a tear, real or otherwise.
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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

My predictions in Pioneer:

Inverter Of Truth
Lotus Field
Dig Through Time

are banned in Pioneer.

Inverter Of Truth: Consistent 4-5/8 copies in every big scale event, problematic win rates against all the tier decks(other top ten most played decks, as WOTC likes saying). Produces the Splinter Twin Modern effect, in the sense that it's limiting diversity in day 2 and top 8 decklists in Pioneer. Like all of that is not even enough, unlike Twin, it's uninteractable and immune to removal spells.

Lotus Field: Difficult to hate (Fae of Wishes thanks!), comparable to Inverter win rates and extreme win rates on game 1. It produces the Golgari-Grave Troll effect in modern. You wish to draw your hate post-sideboard, but even if this happens, they can wish for an anti-hate card, even in game 1. Also, produces the KCI/Eggs Modern effect, in the sense that it takes too long to win(more than 5 minutes, some times).

Dig Through Time will be banned, because it has been an abused in combo decks in the past(Nexus of fate combo), it is being abused now in the two aforementioned decks, and will most assuredly be abused in future decks also. Literally produces the Ponder the DTT modern effect also.

Special mention to Treasure Cruise: It won't be banned. It does not provide card selection and is a sorcery speed card, with real cost. Also there is not a good tempo/xerox deck in the format. Phoenix is just an untiered deck at the moment. No other deck plays the card, and even if future combo decks try to replace DTT with it, it won't be that good, because when you are gunning for card selection is a thing. When you spend all of your yard to draw 3 in your combo deck, it's another thing. And a worse one.

As you can see, all 3 cards are producing a similar to Modern and a bad effect for Pioneer. That's my view and I think it's really close to whatever is going to happen. I also think the text for banning cards will be very similar to the ones I have explained over here. Sure, they may choose to not gun completely all three decks, but I don't see them banning a new card, like Thassa's Oracle, or Underworld Breach. Those cards will break Pioneer again in future for sure. When they do, and when they are done selling TBD packs, they will probably ban those cards if they produce problems again in the future.

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Post by FoilSquared » 1 month ago

My personal predictions for bannings are:

Dig Through Time
Lotus Field

I personally don't want Inverter itself banned, it's not the problem here, it's Dig being able to exile the entire graveyard.

As for Field, Pore over the Pages is a possible banning, but I doubt it, they'll probably ban Field and destroy an entire archetype.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 month ago

Guardman wrote:
1 month ago
Dig Through Time is the correct card to ban if you want to nerf Dimir Inverter without banning it out of existence, since it uses the card better than just about every other deck since it not only finds the combo, but thins out the graveyard.
Boom! That is exactly what I think should happen and for exactly those reasons.

But what will WOTC actually do? Who knows.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 month ago

The real issue is the "win the game" text on Oracle, let's be more direct about the issue. I think we all know Oracle isn't about to be banned since it's in Standard. The other option is Inverter and I really hate to see Inverter go because it is a very interesting card, but let's be honest with ourselves, it saw absolute zero play until Oracle was printed. Inverter is probably the correct choice for a ban based on that alone.

Dig is just a large delve spell with good utility. I may even go as far as to say it's a fair card. It's biggest sin is making combo decks more consistent, which isn't a bad thing. That consistency becomes an issue when the combo itself is hard to interact with; lo and behold we see Inverter standing tall instead of Heliod Combo (a much easier combo to interact with). Not to mention how irritating Nexus of Fate was.

I think many people are too quick to want to ban utility and instead need to see that WotC keeps printing things that break deck sift all the time. Banning Dig would be a big hit to many slower decks trying to play a longer game. Decks like that keep taking this punishment while other decks keep getting faster. Even Bomat Courier is an awesome card advantage engine in those decks, but if you want to set up a turn 4-5 Dig then you're breaking the game. It just sounds ridiculous to me.

Unfortunately, I feel as though Dig will eventually take a ban. If not now then later, certainly.

I'll throw down for Inverter of Truth and something like Pore Over the Pages to weaken Lotus Breach.
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Post by motleyslayer » 4 weeks ago

I don't think I'd like to see inverter banned this time around. I'd like to see what happens if dig was banned first, as it allows the deck to exile large amounts of it graveyard, which is super relevant when it wants to have a small library for the win combo.

Dig is just a massive mistake IMO too, which is banned or restricted in every other format except pioneer

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 3 weeks ago

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... STH8XINccn

Here is a BBD article stating he wants no bans right now. He also says if the have to ban something this tome it should DTT only and then ban more if necessary.

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Post by motleyslayer » 3 weeks ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
3 weeks ago
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... STH8XINccn

Here is a BBD article stating he wants no bans right now. He also says if the have to ban something this tome it should DTT only and then ban more if necessary.
I'd like to see dig be the ban rather than an actual part of the inverter combo. Dig provides so much advantage by looking at so many cards and grabbing the best two you need. All while reducing grave size

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Post by Arkmer » 3 weeks ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... uncement?j

Big ol' nothing banned in Pioneer.

Good? Bad? I'm on bad but not unwilling to try things. See if Essence Scatter or Horribly Awry get me anywhere.

They address the no change with some down playing of combo's power talking about how it's win rate is 49% and continuing to drift downward. Personally, I'd like to know what those bad matchups are, they mention that 5 of the top 10 decks are doing well against it. If it's just 5 aggro decks that are beating Inverter, then I think that's a sign of a problem because it shows that the combo is not rewarding interaction. Somehow I feel like it's a reasonable guess that Inverter is not rewarding interaction.
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Post by motleyslayer » 3 weeks ago

I don't know if I agree with their decision but I can at least accept and understand it.

I didn't know it's win rate was 49% but I guess the format will have to adapt for now

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