[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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motleyslayer
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Post by motleyslayer » 1 month ago

I don't think they can even ban anything with the information that they have. One thing I like about having the PT for teh Americas a week after the other 2 is that it gives players information with what to work with and how to build their decks based on the evens the weeks before. That way it allows WotC to see if decks are actually broken or people just need to adjust their 75 to playing against certain decks and allows the meta to evolve

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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

GP Phoenix just put 5 UB Inverter decks into the top 8.

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Post by motleyslayer » 1 month ago

gkourou wrote: GP Phoenix just put 5 UB Inverter decks into the top 8.
Looks like I might stand corrected in regards to the format adapting to it then. Is there any reason to think a lot of the top players in the PT were better able to answer it or is there any other data we have to support why it did so much better at the GP than the PT?

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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

Top 8 is not everything. Here is an article about how did the top dogs in pioneer perform, over PT Phoenix: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/pl ... ch-up-data

Dimir Inverter overperformed for the second week, and Breach had one of the craziest win rates ever.

At least Dig Through Time should go, but I doubt this will solve all of the problems. There are answers to those combos(fast aggro decks and other answer cards), but DTT & Breach are just some broken magic cards.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 month ago

Inverter as a deck will eat a ban in the near future, as well it should. That type of deck is not okay if Pioneer is supposed to be a home for Standard alumni. It's particularly egregious in its dual use of DTT, a multi-format mistake, as a combo piece and a dispoprtionately powerful draw spell. 5 T8s at a GP following its previous PT/GP performance from the last few weeks is too much for Wizards to take in their new marquee nonrotating format.
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Post by wtyyyyyy » 1 month ago

Inverter and Breach both seem gross. I'm thinking Thassa's Oracle is the right ban here; both decks can continue to exist in weakened forms while minimizing the number of bans required. It's good to still have combo in the format as long as they're not heads and shoulders above the rest of the competition.

As for Dig Through Time, it's only a matter of time. Though banning it now doesn't really affect Lotus Breach and it will continue to terrorize.

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Post by Guardman » 1 month ago

Dig Through Time is the correct card to ban if you want to nerf Dimir Inverter without banning it out of existence, since it uses the card better than just about every other deck since it not only finds the combo, but thins out the graveyard.

As for Lotus Breach, if you are looking for a similar nerf ban there are a couple of options, but I am unsure how good they would be in practice (as there is a chance they are pretty replaceable). First off, for the deck, I don't believe banning Thassa's Oracle would do much considering William Jensen's second place deck didn't even play it. So unless they ban Thassa's Oracle, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, and maybe Laboratory Maniac, the deck probably won't be affected much since they are all easily replaceable in the deck. Fae of Wishes is probably the best choice since it looked like (based purely on what I saw) that Lotus Breach decks with Fae of Wishes did a lot better and were more resilient to hate than those that didn't. It also has the advantage of not harming any other deck. Another choice is Pore Over the Pages as I can't think of a good replacement for the card (though it might exist). I think those are maybe the best choices if they want to nerf it. There are also other cards like Thespian's Stage and Sylvan Scrying, but I feel like the chance for splash damage is higher with those two bans.

The other thing to also discuss is if WotC nerfs Lotus Breach and Dimir Inverter, should they also nerf Sultai Delirium, as out of the most popular decks the only ones Sultai has poor match-ups with (at a some-what relevant sample size) is Bant Spirits, Lotus Breach and Dimir Inverter.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 month ago

Those win rates are very good, but UW was actually higher than the inverter decks. We may get a ban, or a few bans, relitivly soon but I truly believe we still need to wait a few weeks to see how the meta will shift. 1-2 stand out weeks is just not enough time to allow the meta to adjust adequately.
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Post by Simto » 1 month ago

Going to my first Pioneer FNM on Wednesday and I'm really excited for it.
Haven't been able to attend Pioneer (or modern) FNM's since it started due to being busy, but I have assembled a Golgari Stompy deck and I'm hoping I'll be able to smash just one victory in :)

I'm thinking I'll get my ass handed to me most of the evening though hehe, but I don't care, I just want to throw some turn 2 Steel Leaf Champions and Ghalta with haste out :)

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Post by The Fluff » 1 month ago

@Simto

goodluck on your first pioneer fnm. A short report would be appreciated if you can write one in another thread. ^^
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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

So, there were no bans yesterday, probably they are going to wait a little bit, analyze the data, see if the meta can adapt to Breach and Inverter.

Then, they will probably ban older cards like DTT, or Inverter, even if Breach, Thassa's Oracle are huge mistakes and the right bannings. This will happen on either the next Monday or 2 weeks after today.

This could potentially hurt Pioneer, so I think that if they don't ban exactly next Monday, it will be a huge mistake.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 month ago

gkourou wrote:
1 month ago
Then, they will probably ban older cards like DTT, or Inverter, even if Breach, Thassa's Oracle are huge mistakes and the right bannings. This will happen on either the next Monday or 2 weeks after today.
This is what worries me. WotC not wanting to just make the correct ban allows formats to dwell with these clearly inappropriate cards. Even if the ban they make "fixes" things for now, we still end up with cards sitting backseat waiting to be busted again when R&D strays too close to "empty your library" in this instance.

I agree that Breach and Oracle are likely the correct bans and I would be elated to see them make those moves. Not doing so and banning something else just leaves the format open to another insurrection by the same cards.

As a side note, I'm not sure we can call out breach yet, but I certainly am no fan of it. It just hasn't put up the numbers, likely in part because of Inverter's over shadowing.

Also, after thinking about Inverter as a stand alone card, it's actually pretty cool in concept and I almost want to just BS around with it without Oracle just for fun stuff.
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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

Totally agree. I think Inverter makes for some great matchups, and I would not want to see it entirely annihilated, like Twin.
Without DTT and Oracle, they still get to play cards like TC instead of DTT(even if worse), and Jace instead of Thassa.
Let it be Tier 2 - 3 or something.

Breach deck, is an abomination, it's like Ad Nauseam, only worse, because it takes 5 minutes to win the game. It's basically the crossbreeding of Ad Nauseam and Eggs, but only with their worst elements.

Bans I would like to see on next Monday/what I believe is the correct one.
Dig Through Time
Thassa's Oracle
Lotus Field or Underworld Breach

Cards that would be wrong to be banned include:
Treasure Cruise. If they ban it, for the reasons they banned DTT in Modern, it would be utterly silly, but I don't think they will.
Inverter of Truth. I explained my position earlier.
Thoughtseize. It's an answer we need in the format. Unless it gets out of control, don't ban it.

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Post by Simto » 1 month ago

Does anybody have an idea why Tormod's Crypt isn't seeing more play? Particularly in more aggro based decks.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 month ago

What decks are you looking to hose with Crypt? I ask because I feel like while yard stuff is common it's more often a sub theme than the center piece of a deck.
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Post by Simto » 1 month ago

Maybe it was just me who was unlucky, but 3/4 decks I played against at fnm had stuff where I wish I could have removed their graveyards.
Stuff like Uro, izzet phoenix and a cycle/drake haven deck with a lot of graveyard stuff going on too. I was just immediately thinking about what to swap out for graveyard hate in my sideboard.

Just thought it was weird it wasn't being used since I realised it was Pioneer legal. It's so good

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 month ago

State of Pioneer = bad. Scg indy 6/8 decks combo. I love modern, Pioneer is a combo format

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Post by Bearscape » 1 month ago

Even though I enjoy playing Pioneer at FNM myself, I find some joy in the irony of "Pioneer is like Modern but without all the uninteractive combo" turning into "Pioneer is like Modern but with worse interaction"

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 month ago

It was a lie, people often believe such thinks till reality comes back. Pioneer is to me a worse format full of unfair decks... Moden compared to this is fair. Yes they need to ban again decks like inverter and after heliod and after maybe breach... till after this next broken unfair deck will come. Enjoy this till they come to fnm too. The only think why it's funny there is, because people don't buy unfair decks there because of ban frightening

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Post by gkourou » 1 month ago

Modern is the format where you should be playing E-Tron & Titan, Pioneer on the other hand has the issue of Inverter, but about that, I think it's a good deck to have around and Breach has proven itself to be fine. Ballista and Heliod are a combo deck, but in a fair shell, so there you go. A DTT ban will make Pioneer a little bit better in terms of diversity, but it's already very good.

Ban broken deck after broken deck, until another broken deck comes on the top seems like the way for Modern and not Pioneer. Modern has really been this way for years from this aspect.

That's why some of us have moved into Pioneer.

Edit: I am referencing to Modern, just to compare it with Pioneer and not just to talk about it here. If I wanted to do that, I would be on another thread.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 month ago

Here we go again...

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 month ago

By the way gkouro, your opinion is your opinion... But fact is, Pioneer top 8 was a combo fest. 6 / 8 is more as modern with ramp. Youbrejember a time where 6/8 decks in modern was ramp decks? What would you say if this happened in modern? I ask you only because you compared it with ramp in modern. Pioneer is objective broken combo at this point

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Post by Cyanu » 1 month ago

Why do People keep parroting weird opinions about answers is beyond me...

Is it so Hard to grasp that answers have No power level on a vacuum but only a relative one to the threats they're called to deal with? Modern is plagued by big mana decks that effectively Win on t3, super linear aggro decks that actually Win before t3, random %$#% combos that can even Win at t1 and the occasional uw/bg heroes that actually try to play magic (most of the time against a wall of degenerate cards)

Pioneer has some answers that are boarderline broken for the format with the most obvious being TS, unsurprisingly its being used In playsets In a number of sucessfull strategies like sultai delirium, mono Black aggro and of course the dreaded inverter which is naturally the best ts deck

Even if better answers were to be printed you have No reason not to use inverter as your wincon of choice because its simply better than playing random bombs, so yeah inverter is better than scarab god and No amount of answers is going to change this

If anything the pioneer Meta has proven surprisingly resilient to the degerate lotus decks whos reign is already over

Inverter while i agree that the winrate is a bit too high is by No means a problematic deck, if anything its a deck that guarantees a minimum of 5 turns of interactive magic, usually 6-8

As for mono White devotion its Just a value oriented deck with a back up wincon In its combo

Sultai rocks, uw is managing to keep up and aggro is fine In both Red, Black and spirit variants

In short if you want to play either of TS or teferi pioneer is the right format to do so, ironically enough Just like Modern expect it actually Last 6+ turns...

Now can we please not make this the place In which Modern players Come to vent everytime the attendancy of their fnm drops? Or lets make an official Modern vs pioneer thread with loose regulation and let the flames go high!

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 month ago

Come on, modern player? Seems more people playing Pioneer don't want to see reality. No matter if you think inverter or heliod is OK or not... 50% inverter and 25% heliod is to much for a new format which should be funny and different. Combofest, believe it or not Pioneer people's in the world. Trust the meta, no matter if you don't like it

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Post by Arkmer » 1 month ago

I'm also not exactly ecstatic about the current top level meta either but at least my LGS has avoided it. Though the affect of dodging the combo nonsense has been supplanted with 70ish% aggro decks looking to slide as low as possible under the combo radar. We had a week or two of roughly half and half combo vs aggro and the aggro players seem to have made their point.

It's pretty rough no matter how you want to look at it.
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