[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 11/18/2019)

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Post by drmarkb » 1 week ago

I play Legacy, everything is viable and some decks are combo/control, some are tempo/control and most aggro decks pack some control, especially hatebears in d n t, and that works well for me. Not distinct archetypes but decks that act modally.

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Post by Legend » 1 week ago

Banning one card a week would be more than enough. Copter shouldn't be banned at this point. It's the embodiment of powerful, fair play. Banning Copter instead of Oko was the result of pride and greed.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 week ago

I don't agree on your point about copter. That card was everywhere, too many decks were running it. Mono black was also abusing the grave yard using the discard ability. I wish it hadn't needed to go, but clearly people weren't able to compensate against it because it was in so many winning decks. It needed to go.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 week ago

Arkmer wrote:
1 week ago
I'm curious what everyone else feels the Pioneer meta should be built on from a theory standpoint. Would you alter the rock/paper/scissors cycle I propose? Can a 4 piece cycle exist? Would you swap out one of the archetypes?
It's headache inducing thinking about all the possibilities. hehe

Whatever happens, as long as I can play my eldrazi and other aggro-control decks.. then I will be enjoying this format.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 week ago

Legend wrote:
1 week ago
Banning one card a week would be more than enough. Copter shouldn't be banned at this point. It's the embodiment of powerful, fair play. Banning Copter instead of Oko was the result of pride and greed.
Although I agree Oko is egregious and emblematic of awful 2019 MTG design, I'm not sure why you think Oko's legality is in any way related to Copter's legality. Copter was independently powerful in a range of aggressive decks, with a huge percentage of MTGO PTQ fields running the vehicle. Oko was comparatively scarce. Copter basically got banned in Pioneer for the same reasons it got banned in 2017 Standard. Oko might join that blacklist, but again, that has nothing to do with Copter being independently too prevalent.
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Post by Arkmer » 1 week ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 week ago
It's headache inducing thinking about all the possibilities. hehe

Whatever happens, as long as I can play my eldrazi and other aggro-control decks.. then I will be enjoying this format.
I might just be too interested in figuring out all the knobs and levers that can push and pull a format in directions. I've never liked watching magic shows for this reason; I just always wanted to know how they did the thing, showmanship be damned.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 week ago

@Arkmer

hmm, wotc controls all the knobs and levers here. Well, so far I like how they cut off several expensive modern staples like lily veil, snap, the fetchlands, and some other cards from being here. To a certain extent, it allows more people to join in without being dogpiled by people with powerful expensive cards.. cards that can be difficult for new players to acquire. Funny though.. by banning the fetchlands - fabled passage which is a trash card in modern has some value here, because the better alternatives are banned! :omg:
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 1 week ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 week ago
Oko was comparatively scarce.
23% of the decks prior to announcement. I wouldn't call that scarce. Whith everything else banned Oko is now higher up on the ladder and will see play even more. Bant is on the rise and I don't think any deck can stop Oko right now. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am not and in that case I will give Oko 3 weeks.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 week ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 week ago
hmm, wotc controls all the knobs and levers here. Well, so far I like how they cut off several expensive modern staples like lily veil, snap, the fetchlands, and some other cards from being here. To a certain extent, it allows more people to join in without being dogpiled by people with powerful expensive cards.. cards that can be difficult for new players to acquire. Funny though.. by banning the fetchlands - fabled passage which is a trash card in modern has some value here, because the better alternatives are banned! :omg:
Ya, I'm certainly enjoying the cheaper staples for now. I can't tell you how many playsets I've bought for $1 here and there while I build other things and happen to notice an effect I like. I threw 4 Encase in Ice in recently because I thought it might be useful- ENCASE IN ICE, lol.

I'm actually sort of miffed that I picked up Passages when I did. I really don't like them all that much. I've run them as a 2 of at most so far and have been lamenting the desire to have more untapped lands on turns 1-3, even in the janky control lists I've tried.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 week ago

picking up some cheap "might be staples" too. I'm currently using pulse of murasa as sideboard card against the rdw / sligh style decks. Encase in ice could actually be useful against certain hyper aggro. Although sad.. because of their website layout change, scg lost their ability to ship for 5 dollars usps to my country. Right now, I can't order anything from them while they're still fixing their site. :$
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 6 days ago

Mtggoldfish updated the pioneer meta game lists today. They have a UG nexus of fate deck with wilderness reclamation on top, followed up by jeskai and UW control lists. Izzet pheonix and some aggro decks come in further down the list. After that you see the less common combo decks like sram and jeskia ascendancy. Looks like the format slowed down alot and flavors of blue are on top right now. I think something like this is what many people have been talking about wanting for a while so we will see how the community responds and how the meta continues to develop. The lists just got posted so it's certainly not had time to accurately figure out what the meta is, the sample size is just to small.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 3 days ago

No Changes 9 December 2019.

Not a surprise after the big ban last week. I spent some time on Reddit today and the biggest ban targets for that community appeared to be #1 oko by a large margin, #2 nexus of fate, #3 nykthos. Less frequent mentions of dig through time were out there and any other card named I would call an outlier because they seemed to only be mentioned by individual people and not the community at large.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 days ago

I do think it's only a matter of time before the format settles and Oko finds a way to undermine a healthy equilibrium. He's not putting up the numbers now but sometime down the road I won't be surprised.

Look at standard, Oko was the tier zero deck and after they banned him a whole host of creatures thrust into relevancy. Not to mention that you can actually play some of the cool artifacts they put in the set.

Nexus is just part of that "indeterminate combo" group that only a small sliver of people really seem to enjoy. And Nykthos has caused a few other things to be banned in it's stead, I guess I'm interested to see how long they let it hold on.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 days ago

I just realized that Treasure Cruise is legal here. Now, the guy I heard who got 100+ of them can finally sell his copies. :p

Wondering how long this card would be legal in pioneer? Getting tempted to buy a playset too.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 2 days ago

UWx control is too strong right now. They have the best PW's (Oko, both Teferi's, Tamiyo), they have the best mass removal (Supreme Verdict, Cyclonic Rift), the best cardraw DDT and inevitable lategame with Nexus/Reclamation.

It is hard to single out a specific card that makes UWx too strong but I wouldn't be surprised if DDT got banned eventually.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 days ago

If it's 100 foils, then it looks like he could make like $2 a piece! Getting buyers would be an issue though.

As far as legality, I'd like to think they're trying to preserve Cruise and Dig as legal cards in the format. Not having fetches is actually a pretty big deal for their speed. The other side of that is that I got hit with Approach of the Second Sun the other day and the guy immediately followed it next turn with Dig + Approach to win. Very strong combo, probably better in some regards than Nexus. I don't think banning Dig would make much difference here either as activating Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin twice is equally effective and very possible from what I have seen.

I'd still really like to see Oko and T3feri gone. My bit about Oko is above in another post, but eliminating T3feri would weaken the resiliency of the Approach + Dig + Approach 2 turn combo by allowing it to be countered. It's a very mana hungry line at 7 + 9 minimum.
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Post by The Fluff » 2 days ago

I don't know if they're foils or not. Just overheard it in a facebook chat, it's unfortunate for him that time because he got 100+ of happy boat just as it got modern banned. hehe

It seems dtt is more powerful than tc in this format, looking at the top 7 cards then choose two of them is good for setting up combos. Although I'm weary of investing or building any deck that relies heavily tc or dtt... with their banned status in modern, feels like these cards are on borrowed time here as well.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 2 days ago

DTT imo is certainly better than TC. TC can just draw air while DTT selects the best cards and that is why it is seeing more play. I really like that those two cards and DRS are legal, I've been brewing with them and haven't found the shell I'm happy with yet.

In some ways the ban lists are so different between modern and pioneer, as I they are all different cards, but on the other hand there are similarities with some of the cards. Twin is copycat combo which is Banned. I think field of the dead compares to eye of ugin and valukut for its inevitability and combo nature, remember valakut was banned for a period in modern. Once upon a time and oath of nissa are early card filtering in line with ponder and Preordain.

Some of the other cards like copter, fetch lands, leyline or veil of summer don't have direct comparisons imo and those are actually based on WOTC's new format goals and pioneer's actual meta development. There may be more we can infer by looking at moderns ban list and pioneer meta comparing card functions rather than actual card names.

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Post by gkourou » 2 days ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 19-12-10-0

15 out of 32 decks are playing Oko in this Pioneer PTQ.

New set of Pioneer PTQ's made their appearance online. 11-15/32 oko decks in each one. Yeah, we need to wait a little bit, but it seems that at the moment, it's warping the metagame too hard.

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Post by The Fluff » 2 days ago

@metalmusic_4

agreed. And it's probably why there's a big difference in prices between the two, tc is cents while dtt is 5-6 dollars. Oh, and our old friend drs is still legal here as well - I wonder how long he can dodge the hammer? :)

And one more thing. I'm so glad that w6 , ghost quarter, and Blood Moon are all not legal here! It's hard enough making a stable three color mana base without the proper fetch lands.. getting disrupted by w6 + quarter, and moon would make it much worse.
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Post by gkourou » 2 days ago

Some more stats coming in, regarding PTQ's.
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ELdsiwtUwAEbSbf.png

You 'd better believe that 41%, 38%, 36% of the overall decks, meaning ~38.5% run Oko. This means, more than 1/3 decks are running the powerful 3-cmc walker.
(Note: Only 1 Nykthos deck is choosing not to run Oko. Most, if not all, Gx Ramp, Gx Stompy, Gxx midrange decks run him).

Also, UW Control seems to be a true Tier 1 deck for sure.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 day ago

gkourou wrote:
2 days ago
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 19-12-10-0

15 out of 32 decks are playing Oko in this Pioneer PTQ.

New set of Pioneer PTQ's made their appearance online. 11-15/32 oko decks in each one. Yeah, we need to wait a little bit, but it seems that at the moment, it's warping the metagame too hard.
I do see a lot of oko on these lists, but I also a lot of nykthos. There is only ONE pithing needle in the top 8 side boards which would hit either. I think there has to be some sideboard changes.

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Post by Arkmer » 1 day ago

Pithing Needle doesn't hit Nykthos. It is a mana ability.

I would stay on the Oko is an issue train anyway. Oko just invalidates so many creatures and repeatedly so. Doom Blade at least is a one and done. Oko may not remove the creature but no one is lining up to play vanilla 3/3s. If WotC wants a format with interesting creatures, they're going to ban Oko. He forces everything to have haste, hexproof, protection, +1/+1 counters, or be smaller than a 3/3. That just screams dull to me. No interesting abilities, no synergies, lords are a waste, high profile artifacts are null, your first Pithing Needle must name Oko then you can target what you like if you get a second.

Nykthos still requires support and might encourage interaction in a way WotC likes (really spitballing here), so that might be reason enough to keep it. I do think if they ban Nykthos, they need to unban Leyline. I'm fairly certain we know why Leyline was banned and a swap there would be a nice thing to see.
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Post by stille_nacht » 1 day ago

Slightly different topic: Why is GB so weak in pioneer? At first glance, it seems to have a lot of the things that make it a solid choice in modern, with weaker field to fight? Is the loss of liliana just that big?

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 day ago

Arkmer wrote:
1 day ago
Pithing Needle doesn't hit Nykthos. It is a mana ability.
Thank you, I thought it would. I defined mana ability incorrectly.

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