[Official] State of Pioneer Thread (B&R 12/16/2019)

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Post by Dusk » 7 months ago

My guess is that there will be no changes, but several cards will be listed as watch cards. There simply is not enough information yet to make a ban yet. I could be wrong. I've not been keeping up with this, as I'm holding off until the archetypes settle out.
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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 7 months ago

Nykthos wasn't a card on my radar, but the extra consistency from OuaT is pretty potent. That deck's biggest problem is finding Nykthos in the first few turns, and OuaT is made for exactly that.

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Post by Wraithpk » 7 months ago

The green decks are way more consistent than other colors. They might have to hit Oath of Nissa and Once Upon a Time.
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Post by motleyslayer » 7 months ago

I think that once upon a time is probably worth giving a bit more time, I think I also want copycat and green leyline banned now after seeing more results

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Post by Mikefon » 7 months ago

If I had to guess, looking at public results, I'd say Wizards could ban these cards: And maybe -
Note that those are not the card I would like to be banned, but the card that might be banned.
That's the worst case scenario. I can see also a much lighter action as first ban even more after they announced a weekly update.

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Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

What is Once Upon a Time actually doing to the format? Just adding consistency? I would think that Green would get Nykthos banned first because it's what's actually being abused. I guess I just see Once as a nice way to keep the game pushing forward in a reasonable way. Maybe you need creatures, maybe you need lands. I think Once is perfectly fine in a Fair deck.

Banning OUaT (horrible acronym) for the sins of Nykthos is akin to just having a restricted list. The goal of a restricted list is to reduce the consistency of abusive cards while allowing them to be played, right? So banning the consistency card (OUaT) is the same goal as just restricting the abused card (Nykthos); it's just less effective at actually restricting it in some cases. Does anyone disagree with that assessment?

As far as actual bans go, I am hoping for: Teferi, Time Raveler, Oko, Thief of Crowns, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.
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Post by drmarkb » 7 months ago

It seems a bit harsh to ban Nykthos when it could be used more reasonably in other devotion decks. Surely it is the combination of Nythos+ Leyline + ability to dig that is an issue. Leyline is just used in the one deck (Gx devotion), Nythos could go in a lot more.

Teferi just does not need a ban. Great card, sure. easily answered with Decay, etc. The main issue with all walkers is that they get use prior to being one-for oned, making them considerably better than one for one, unless they are countered. That is an issue with all walkers- there is no good way to interact profitably or punish players for having too many. Tef, Oko etc just highlight the issue, which would be solved by better hate that takes them out preemptively- Spyglasses on steroids are needed.

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Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

In general, I think the "profitable" way to remove walkers is through combat. In most cases hitting a walker does not remove the creature. This is way Control decks already struggle to fight walkers, we're pretty light on Creatures. This is sort of why I think both T3feri and Oko should go. Teferi is just so overly decimating to control lists that it's ridiculous*. Oko on the other hand makes combat very difficult to win with for obvious reasons.

You might be right about Nykthos though. I just very much hope that turn 3 and 4 Ullamog is not something deemed acceptable in this format. Decks will always just play the biggest smasher available in ramp decks like this though, so I doubt banning the creature will be the answer (not saying you were saying that, just speaking freely). Leads me to want to ban the massive amount of ramp that it grants.
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I'm not really looking to start a huge conversation about this. I've been up and down Reddit over it when he was printed, Discords, the Modern forums here and Salvation, etc. I know what my experience is with the card. He's not oppressive to the format, but he is oppressive to other Control lists. It's not really something I'm willing to debate.

I've been playing a ton of Teferi in Modern and whether it's Flash Control, Walker based, has a ton of walker removal, or tries to sneak a Colonnade into him, untapping with T3feri just ends 80% of control mirrors. He's not fun, he's not interesting, but it has little impact on the rest of the format so no one cares. If there was a 3 mana "Flying, First Strike, Deathtouch, Indestructible, Vigilance" creature, I'm sure it would be banned because it makes combat irrelevant and unfun... That's the stack with T3feri. Boring, dull, irrelevant while he's in play, and nearly impossible to play around. Though I suppose the joke is that a 3/3 Elk isn't worth banning.
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Post by Arkmer » 7 months ago

Nice call with the Leyline. Frankly I'm surprised at how hard they nailed Cat Combo. Hitting Oath as well?
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Post by Dormammu » 7 months ago

Oath makes some sense. The number of dangerous low-cost Planeswalkers makes that an outrageous enabler.

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Post by Simto » 7 months ago

Damn, I was hoping I could have used my Oath of Nissa playset again hehe. Oh well, no biggie.

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Post by The Fluff » 7 months ago

They got rid of a combo deck right from the start with a cat ban. Hmm, this is getting interesting.
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Post by The Fluff » 6 months ago

I wonder how long drs would stay free in this format. Or maybe with the lack of fetchlands he isn't broken anymore?
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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 6 months ago

Without lands that fetch for untapped Mana turn 1, he just isn't powerful enough IMHO. He might find a home as a grindy, maindeck gravehate card but he won't ever break the format in half like he has others, because he isn't Birds of Paradise on top of his other effects, at least not on turn 1.

No, my concern is if A: Is Nykthos still broken after eating 2 bans?
And B: is Treasure Cruise broken via Izzet Phoenix and if so, are they going to do what they did in Modern and hit Dig at the same time?

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Post by Dusk » 6 months ago

MAGUSZANIN wrote:
6 months ago
Without lands that fetch for untapped Mana turn 1, he just isn't powerful enough IMHO. He might find a home as a grindy, maindeck gravehate card but he won't ever break the format in half like he has others, because he isn't Birds of Paradise on top of his other effects, at least not on turn 1.

No, my concern is if A: Is Nykthos still broken after eating 2 bans?
And B: is Treasure Cruise broken via Izzet Phoenix and if so, are they going to do what they did in Modern and hit Dig at the same time?
Regarding B: I don't think so. Both are strong, but are seeing play in mostly different decks since there are no fetches to fuel them and they fill different roles. Banning both, without evidence that both are problematic, would be a very bad idea. That said, I don't think either will be banned in the near future.
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Post by MAGUSZANIN » 6 months ago

Dusk wrote:
6 months ago

Regarding B: I don't think so. Both are strong, but are seeing play in mostly different decks since there are no fetches to fuel them and they fill different roles. Banning both, without evidence that both are problematic, would be a very bad idea. That said, I don't think either will be banned in the near future.
I would just point out that the entire first two thirds of your post* is exactly what they did in Modern. Dig decks were holding steady at less than 15% of the overall meta and not breaking anything, while Cruise decks and Pod ran rampant. Then they banned both Dig and Cruise in one update.

*Barring the Fetchland part of course.

That said, I do agree that tentatively we seem to be holding steady with nothing pulling super far ahead of anything else. Honestly my biggest worry right now is Nexus of Fate. That deck is obnoxious** to play against, and has access to Dig to enable its consistency while getting a ton of excellent control and anti control tools.

** I actually don't mind Control decks in the meta, its just that I want those decks to then win the game in a reasonable number of turns once they've stabilized, and Nexus is the polar opposite of that.

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Post by robertleva » 6 months ago

The Field of the dead deck is obnoxious BUT we have tons of answers to it. Other than that, I'm not seeing any degenerate strats emerging. You guys?
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Post by Arkmer » 6 months ago

I've seen a ton of artifact aggro. Bomats, Shrapnel Blasts, Copter, the new Stone Snake, etc. I would hesitate to call it degenerate or bannable, it's certainly beatable, but it's also certainly made up the largest part of the meta in my area. With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised at a "no change" this week.

This is the first week the first ban will actually be in effect as well, so they may sit back and see what happens. Regardless of my no change prediction, I'll still beat the drum for T3feri and Oko; I just also realize it's not likely to happen, at least this week.

Has anyone played against the Starfield of Nyx deck yet? I'll see if I can get my friend to send me his list. He's using Starfield and Doom Foretold to reuse things like Oath of Jace, Oath of Kaya, Demonic Pact, and Trial of Ambition. The deck seems to absolutely destroy midrange, I'd be interested to see how he does in other matches. Funny thought that he just loses to Emrakul if he has Pact in play, lol.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 6 months ago

State of Pioneer thread updated and merged with existing banlist talk!
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Post by ktkenshinx » 6 months ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
7 months ago
What cards do you guys think are gonna get banned in Pioneer once it gets going?

My money is on Aetherworks Marvel
Hijacked your thread for our official State of Pioneer thread. Hope the discussion stays engaging and thanks for kicking things off!
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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

The State of Pioneer is that it's awesome :)

I'm kinda cautiously watching and waiting on the banlists until I buy some more cards for decks I want to build or flesh out. Don't want to buy more cards I'll just have laying around. I need money!

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Post by ktkenshinx » 6 months ago

Simto wrote:
6 months ago
The State of Pioneer is that it's awesome :)

I'm kinda cautiously watching and waiting on the banlists until I buy some more cards for decks I want to build or flesh out. Don't want to buy more cards I'll just have laying around. I need money!
Yeah, I really don't want to invest too heavily in decks/cards that might get banned. The format is super volatile right now and that won't change for a while. We're looking at weekly ban updates based on just MTGO data. With few paper events on the horizon until 2020, there isn't even too much incentive to really break the format or dig too deep into strategies. This means top players/brewers will still divide their attention between formats, or ignore Pioneer altogether. The end effect is an initially underdeveloped, immature metagame which is likely not representative of the final Pioneer state. That means we should be cautious when investing in anything until the format stabilizes.

That said, if I had to pick a deck right now, I'd probably pick a Reclamation/Nexus strategy. It dodges a ton of common interaction and is just playing on a very different axis than many decks are on.
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Post by motleyslayer » 6 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
6 months ago
Simto wrote:
6 months ago
The State of Pioneer is that it's awesome :)

I'm kinda cautiously watching and waiting on the banlists until I buy some more cards for decks I want to build or flesh out. Don't want to buy more cards I'll just have laying around. I need money!
Yeah, I really don't want to invest too heavily in decks/cards that might get banned. The format is super volatile right now and that won't change for a while. We're looking at weekly ban updates based on just MTGO data. With few paper events on the horizon until 2020, there isn't even too much incentive to really break the format or dig too deep into strategies. This means top players/brewers will still divide their attention between formats, or ignore Pioneer altogether. The end effect is an initially underdeveloped, immature metagame which is likely not representative of the final Pioneer state. That means we should be cautious when investing in anything until the format stabilizes.

That said, if I had to pick a deck right now, I'd probably pick a Reclamation/Nexus strategy. It dodges a ton of common interaction and is just playing on a very different axis than many decks are on.
that's where I'm at as well, format is super volatile right now and hasn't really picked up in my area despite my efforts since it was announced to try and fire weekly events

I'm gonna have to get a few copies of liliana, the last hope as I don't know what I did with mine before but I'm really cautious on cards like dig through time as pioneer is the only format you can play 4 of it right now and it seems too good for the format. Other than that I'm probably gonna settle with a deck once the format settles. I also still don't know if jvp is worth getting now

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

Yeah, I mean, it sucks if you're only just getting into Magic now and you think Pioneer looks cool because buying into it is kinda hard, but on the other hand if you already have cards from the legal sets to build decks with, then I think that's kinda what makes it fun right now. It's just the "anything goes" kinda wild west right now. It's a lot of fun and tons of brewing options.
Pioneer is kind of a sweet spot as I see it, between having more powerful cards, but not as insanely fast or crazy strong as modern. It's a good blend as far as I've seen it right now.
And the weekly bans will likely kill all the broken stuff and hopefully keep the format fun and open without being too limited and boring.

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