The last lists I saw in this thread basically concede to a resolved Teferi, Time Raveler. That's not acceptable for a Modern deck.
I would still go for something like this.
Well it's not like there are any lists with Archmage's Charm, Torrential Gearhulk, and mainboard EE posting up results either. And I'm not trying to criticize your deck at all -- I'd have to put some reps in with it before I felt comfortable even trying to criticize it. But Esper is often in uncharted territory anyways, and people just play their pet cards. There's nothing wrong with that, and I never claimed my list is the best possible one. Someone asked what I'm playing. I simply answered the question.BloodyRabbit wrote: ↑2 years agoI don't want to be "that guy", seriously. But running White Sun's Zenith in the late 2019 seems just wrong. Not by the looks of it, but by experience. That card is massively underpowered compared to the rest of the field. There's a reason if NO ONE list in the Modern footage events features it.
Playing more Snaps main, more 2 mana counters and Force of Negations, and splitting Colonnade with Tar Pit are all concessions to T3feri. Sometimes the plan is to simply not let him resolve or play your own T3feri instead.The last lists I saw in this thread basically concede to a resolved Teferi, Time Raveler. That's not acceptable for a Modern deck.
Oh, don't look at my comment as a critique. Just a commentary by my part.Well it's not like there are any lists with Archmage's Charm, Torrential Gearhulk, and mainboard EE posting up results either. And I'm not trying to criticize your deck at all -- I'd have to put some reps in with it before I felt comfortable even trying to criticize it. But Esper is often in uncharted territory anyways, and people just play their pet cards. There's nothing wrong with that, and I never claimed my list is the best possible one. Someone asked what I'm playing. I simply answered the question.
I'm not even jamming Esper Control these days. The list was an example to what I would play. The point is, compared to most lists I saw on this thread, it's by far the most reliable against T3feri, cause it plays a full set of Force of Negation to prevent it, more counterspells generally speaking, and a mix of Explosives + creatures that helps getting rid of it.nod to @BloodyRabbit 's list (which I am certain folds to a resolved T3feri)
That's fine, but you came to the thread complaining about people folding to a resolved T3feri, then immediately post a list that heavily relies on counters with the intent of not letting him resolve and tries to attack into him as a backup measure. It's moving the goal posts from fighting a "resolved" T3feri to fighting an unresolved one when you suggest defeating him with 2cmc counters and FoN, so I apologize if my comments came off as more than I intended.BloodyRabbit wrote: ↑2 years agoI'm not even jamming Esper Control these days. The list was an example to what I would play. The point is, compared to most lists I saw on this thread, it's by far the most reliable against T3feri, cause it plays a full set of Force of Negation to prevent it, more counterspells generally speaking, and a mix of Explosives + creatures that helps getting rid of it.nod to @BloodyRabbit 's list (which I am certain folds to a resolved T3feri)
Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!A Cute Bunny wrote: ↑2 years agoSnip!ShowWe got the 4-0 tonight 1st place feels great.
Approximate Total Cost:
First off, Mystic Sanctuary is bananas. The card single handedly won me 2 matches against Bant Spirits both times. Infinite Cryptic loop with a +ing Jace on board is great! It also helped me 2-0 burn by rebuying Guile a few times. I was on 1 for FnM but am 100% playing the 2nd after tonight. It was never dead and a few times I actually wanted the second so I'll be testing it.
Anyways on to my matches:
Round 1: Boros Burn: 2-0
Game 1: I had a decent hand. Guile, Push, Opt, Snap and a few lands. Ended up getting a few lands off his goblin guide which ate my push. Gained 4 with Guile then on t4 fetched Sanctuary and put it back. Eventually Snap guile and beat him down ending the game at 6.
Game 2: Brought in 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Purge, 1 Timely, 1 Guile, and 2 Path. Took out the 6 t1 discard, Azcanta and Big Tef. Ended up using Sanctuary to rebuy a Brutality and basically stripped his hand. Stabilized the board with a +ing Jace and eventually won off his ult at 1 life.
Round 2: Temur Delver: 2-0
Game 1: I had some early discard to take out his threats and his spells kind of don't line up without creatures. Ended up on the Tar Pit + Snap beat plan when he had nothing left.
Game 2: Cut 1 big Teferi, 1 Cryptic Command, Azcanta and 3 Esper Charm for 2 Co Bru, 2 Path and 2 Purge. Weird game where he tapped out to play threats then I tapped out to kill them. He runs a lot of Dispels, Spell Pierces and Veil of Summers so I didn't want to play in to them. Eventually won with a Spirit token beat.
Round 3: Bant Spirits: 1-0
Game 1: I didn't have any Verdicts in my main at this point. I had cut them a few months back and put them in the SB. Anyways he is on this weird build with Mariner and Thalia main. His board eventually is Mariner x2 anda few other Spirits. I had 8 mana and I just stuck a Jace the turn before. I draw into my 3rd Cryptic Command with 1 in yard and the other in hand still. I + Jace on him hoping he doesn't ever get a Queller while I loop tap + bounce on my Sanctuary. Eventually we get there with Jace ult and don't have the time for a second game. Really tough game but Infinite Cryptics paid off.
Round 4: Bant Spirits: 2-0
Game 1: t1 discard Queller, t2 discard CoCo and Push his Noble. T3 T3feri and the game was basically over from there. I countered a lot of stuff, removed some other stuff and rebought some stuff with Sanctuary.
Game 2: Weirdly enough, after a long fight I ulted Jace after looping Cryptics with Sanctuary like my round 3 match but unlike that match he never got to stick anything on board.
Final thoughts: After 4-0ing tonight I was really pleased with Sanctuary, it was never dead and a few times I wanted a second one to fetch up. Discard still felt great for me as well taking out threats and giving me basically perfect information. My new build is above with 2nd Sanctuary and a Verdict main again. I'm also debating cutting the big Teferi, in a lot of matches I really don't find the time to tap down for him. I'm kind of thinking about playing 2-3 Karn + the lattice package just to test it out but for now the list above is my current revisions. Sideboard could probably still use some cleaning up.
Remember that time, about 14 hours ago, where I went 4-0 in FNM with 3 mainboard Drown in the Loch and it was VERY good? I do. It was a fun time.
I tested Loch for a while but my problem with the card is that it has a higher potential then Knot or Leak to be dead early and I'm not looking to replace a late game card for it personally. To me it's the kind of card you want to build around but I don't think it is good enough to be built around. Additionally it requires your opponent to play a specific deck or way for it to be live in the early turns which is where I want a card like this to be live. For instance, against Humans, Spirits, big mana and anything that doesn't go t1 fetch + 1 mana sorcery Loch isn't live... but having discard main does help facilitate Loch. Also, I don't want to replace any of my removal for it either because my other removal is just more efficient. Personally Loch isn't for me because it's highly likely it's dead early in my meta and I can't afford to have dead cards early.
Bad:Arkmer wrote: ↑2 years agoSo... the jury is still out in Drown in the Loch? Seems like we have a mix of "it's amazing" and "it's not great". I still haven't played the card, I'm letting Friday drafts supply it for me in the long run.
I think we need to talk about what decks it's specifically good against and where it struggles. I think there's some good points about Humans and Spirits being a tough card to use because they aren't putting anything in their yard for us. Grixis Shadow and other similar decks are doing some filling but use a bunch of it to Delve for Gurmag, so that's mixed bag. Control lists tend to like to fill the yard by virtue of doing anything, Jund actively fills it, Whirza lists fill their yard reasonably well to make this work. Does anyone have any other lists they'd like to point out as making Drown more or less useful?
Could we use this as a measure of when Drown is good vs when it's bad? Or is there a better way to look at this?
Except that most counterspells would be dead against these decks anyways. Drown is much better than, say, Mana Leak in these matchups because it can work as a removal spell. Keep in mind that Esper Charm and Fatal Push actively put cards in your opponent's graveyard in a proactive way as well.
Yeah, Drown is actively bad in these matchups.Big Mana: Tron, Amulet Titan, Eldrazi (They do stuff at 6+ mana on turn 3 without having close to that many cards in the yard)
But you don't need to counter the Delve spells (except maybe against Shadow, but then Drown usually hits Shadow itself, discard spells, and either Snapcaster Mage or Ranger-Captain of Eos). Mostly, you want Drown to hit Snapcaster Mage and Kommand, and sometimes Cryptic/Force in these matchups, and that's not too hard to do.Delve cards: Shadow, Control specifically Grixis (but control mirrors are often draw go and Veto is much stronger here), Gurmag, Tassigur, Logic Knot etc (lots of cards can shut off Loch on their terms)
Drown isn't great against Druid Combo until about T3, but if you survive until then, it's the best card in your deck. Against Hardened Scales, Drown is fine -- it hits Stirrings and Hardened Scales pretty easily, and always kills a resolved Ballista or a manland. Against Bogles, Drown is better than any other removal spell because it can can be used as a counterspell. Soulherder is very slow, so it doesn't really matter how long it takes Drown to come online. Any counterspell is great against them.Midrangey Creature Decks: Druid Combo, Hardened Scales, Bogles, Bant Soulherder (Usually doesn't put much in their yard and go wide against us.)
Agreed. Will note that Drown usually hits ramp spells pretty easily too, which can be good depending on your hand.Medium:
Urza: Split depending on their draw and build. Some lists use the yard a lot some want to keep everything on board for Outcome.
Titanshift: Depends on their draws if they ramp a lot early then we can probably hit a Shift or Titan.
Again, I'd say that Drown is much better in these matchups than you give it credit for. If you topdeck a counterspell after either of these decks resolve a creature, it's going to look really silly. If you topdeck a Drown, you can typically keep up with their threats with removal. Sure, if you hit a Stoneforge after it resolves they get the Batterskull, but we have plenty of ways of dealing with a 5-mana sorcery-speed non-creature spell (hint, ECharm in discard mode is insane here). You're unlikely to win a G1 against Burn, but if you do, step one is keeping creatures out of play. Drown does that, but can also counter a Boros Charm. We don't have any other counterspell/removal spell that does this.Burn: This is ALMOST always live (cept when they have a creature heavy draw) against them but we don't really want to be trading down in mana.
Stoneblade: I mean, it has the potential to hit stuff in their deck but if you are on the draw this feels a lot worse then Snare or 1 mana removal.
I would say that Drown is a little worse here than any 2-mana counter, as it needs some work to hit Ad Nauseaum itself. But again, it's still better than a Fatal Push!Ad Naus: I mean if they don't have the pact in their hand then it probably works but I'd rather have a Veto to be sure to stop them.
Again, the fact that Drown is never a dead topdeck against them, even when you're behind (i.e., they already have a creature on board), is very important. If you play a little with it in these matchups, I'm sure you'll agree.Good?:
Jund: I mean it is the least dead against them and it probably has decent counter or removal targets, I'd personally rather have 1 mana removal unless I tag a walker with this.
Infect: Sure, more removal is always nice because they have a lot of protection and hey this can catch most of the pump spells too.
Yada yada, better than other removal spells, yada yada. I'm sure it's getting old at this point.Dredge: Never dead but I mean... not super great against them either cuz recursive threats.
I mean, if this is the only part of my post that you can reply to, that doesn't exactly convince me that Drown is a bad card. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have my own anecdotal evidence that the card is good, and I'm going to continue to test it.
Wow, I'm so happy for you. Maybe if you gave a little more detail on the decks you faced and the number of times you actually ended up using the Drown in the Loch? FNM isn't exactly the pinnacle of competitive play, so excuse me if you going 4-0 running the card isn't enough to convince me how "great" it is. Hell, I've gone 4-0 running 8-whack goblins before, but that doesn't suddenly make it the best deck in the format.TheAnnihilator wrote: ↑2 years agoHowever, you'd have to present me with a very compelling argument for me to renounce the card that just got me a 4-0 against only meta decks at FNM with it on the first day I played Esper with it. $60 store credit speaks a lot louder to me than unconstructive criticism does.