[Primer] Esper Draw-Go Control

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BloodyRabbit
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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

I don't want to be "that guy", seriously. But running White Sun's Zenith in the late 2019 seems just wrong. Not by the looks of it, but by experience. That card is massively underpowered compared to the rest of the field. There's a reason if NO ONE list in the Modern footage events features it.

The last lists I saw in this thread basically concede to a resolved Teferi, Time Raveler. That's not acceptable for a Modern deck.

I would still go for something like this.



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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

How would you recommend not "basically conced[ing] to a resolved Teferi, Time Raveler"? Apart from the awesome tech that are Red or Green annoying things, I haven't found much that works well. And naturally those are out of our colors. I guess I would add a Sphinx to that list, but he costs 7.

The list you present doesn't convince me that it'll beat T3feri consistently. Apart from attacking, you have no way to remove him once he resolves. You'll have to suffer the fate of instant speed Verdicts at that point.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

More Tar-Pits, more creatures, more Forces, more ways to interact with it on stack and on the play. Simply put.

Explosives maindeck. D-Sphere in the sb.

There's a universe of difference in these lists in dealing with early walkers. Try it and you'll see by yourself.

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Post by Grimblee » 2 years ago

Hello,

I've been playing Grixis Cruel Control a few years ago (I own the list in real paper), some kind of draw-go style deck aiming to drown the opponents under advantage with Cruel ultimatum instead of Sphinx's Revelation. Well it's more of a hybrid since you actually try to close the game with direct damages (bolt-snap-bolt) and tar pits.

But as time passed I felt that the card had too many issues (color requirements stopping you from playing Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter against Tron, unflexible cost...) and dropped it and eventually stopped playing modern (I don't really remember why, Eldrazi maybe).

Now, after years of EDH seclusion, Modern Horizons and all the new shiny cards are starting to get me excited and as I love draw-go style I think I'm going to try some Esper Draw-Go (after much looking around).

As such, I would like to have your advice on the following list, need to test it but I think it's a good starting point:

I saw that most lists now uses walkers, I didn't try myself tbh, I remember playing around with them during my Grixis times but I felt that if I wanted to go draw-go, I should be dropping bombs at the end step.

The 4 checklands might not be needed, I think it's a legacy from Cruel Control having such intensive color requirements. I know that sometimes they give you ankward opening hands where you have them and man lands and so, no untapped land for Spell Snare and Opt.

A card I'm that I'm thinking about is Fact or Fiction, though I think it'll be a bit redondent with the charm...

Thank you!
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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

You can probably get away with it going for 3 Charm : 1 FoF to see how the card feels. Guy at my LGS doesn't want to shell out for JtMS so he plays a single FoF instead and loves it. He's on UW though, not brave enough to take the Black.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

[mention]Grimblee[/mention] No Logic Knot just seems wrong here. I think you want to cut a Snare and 1 or 2 Remands and play at least 2 Knots, though I always play 3.

I honestly am not sure that it's wise to play without a few planeswalker finishers, but I would suggest giving it a shot and seeing if you feel like the deck needs more finishers or repeatable card advantage sources. Play what works for you.

Edit: Also, it may be better to play Murderous Rider instead of Downfall. Not sure tho.
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
2 years ago
I don't want to be "that guy", seriously. But running White Sun's Zenith in the late 2019 seems just wrong. Not by the looks of it, but by experience. That card is massively underpowered compared to the rest of the field. There's a reason if NO ONE list in the Modern footage events features it.
Well it's not like there are any lists with Archmage's Charm, Torrential Gearhulk, and mainboard EE posting up results either. And I'm not trying to criticize your deck at all -- I'd have to put some reps in with it before I felt comfortable even trying to criticize it. But Esper is often in uncharted territory anyways, and people just play their pet cards. There's nothing wrong with that, and I never claimed my list is the best possible one. Someone asked what I'm playing. I simply answered the question. :)

I'm not necessarily playing Zenith because I think it's the best. I mainly play it to give the deck a faster clock so I don't go to time in 50min paper rounds. Even Jace takes a long time to ult, and people don't always scoop when they should against an active Teferi Hero. Zenith is just the best card I've found at actually winning quickly once you resolve it, and I hate durdling around for too long and picking up draws.
The last lists I saw in this thread basically concede to a resolved Teferi, Time Raveler. That's not acceptable for a Modern deck.
Playing more Snaps main, more 2 mana counters and Force of Negations, and splitting Colonnade with Tar Pit are all concessions to T3feri. Sometimes the plan is to simply not let him resolve or play your own T3feri instead.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

I actually don't think I would play a 2cmc counter right now... Drown is a contender, but I don't have them yet. If they gave me Counterspell today though? I might not want it. Between Guile, Push, Path, and Verdict I don't much about what resolves unless it's a Walker and those usually cost enough for me to have a counter available.

I might have to change my avatar! :laugh:

On the other hand a nod to [mention]BloodyRabbit[/mention] 's list (which I am certain folds to a resolved T3feri) and [mention]TheAnnihilator[/mention]'s statement, the 2cmc counters (and FoN) keep T3feri off the table better than the 3+cmc ones.

I'm still trying to figure out a good plan for fighting him within my deck style. So far it's been to have the counter fight over theirs, then resolve one on my turn and Downfall theirs. I haven't gotten much else to work. Tar Pit included... Great way lose a land if you ask me.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

Well it's not like there are any lists with Archmage's Charm, Torrential Gearhulk, and mainboard EE posting up results either. And I'm not trying to criticize your deck at all -- I'd have to put some reps in with it before I felt comfortable even trying to criticize it. But Esper is often in uncharted territory anyways, and people just play their pet cards. There's nothing wrong with that, and I never claimed my list is the best possible one. Someone asked what I'm playing. I simply answered the question.
Oh, don't look at my comment as a critique. Just a commentary by my part.

Fact is: Charm has NEVER been tried in this deck - and it just acquires power with playing multiple Snap-effects. You can't say that it has been proven bad here. It's a new card, a card that most people never tried in this shell (mostly for color requirements). Zenith was the main closer for a long time before the printing of planeswalkers, cause you needed something reliable in the long run - heck, other than Colonnades the Wafo-Tapa list only had 2 Snapcaster and 1 Zenith as ways to actually win the game!

I just find it completely unnecessary by now. Expecially when you're on planeswalkers (like your list).

nod to @BloodyRabbit 's list (which I am certain folds to a resolved T3feri)
I'm not even jamming Esper Control these days. The list was an example to what I would play. The point is, compared to most lists I saw on this thread, it's by far the most reliable against T3feri, cause it plays a full set of Force of Negation to prevent it, more counterspells generally speaking, and a mix of Explosives + creatures that helps getting rid of it.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

BloodyRabbit wrote:
2 years ago
nod to @BloodyRabbit 's list (which I am certain folds to a resolved T3feri)
I'm not even jamming Esper Control these days. The list was an example to what I would play. The point is, compared to most lists I saw on this thread, it's by far the most reliable against T3feri, cause it plays a full set of Force of Negation to prevent it, more counterspells generally speaking, and a mix of Explosives + creatures that helps getting rid of it.
That's fine, but you came to the thread complaining about people folding to a resolved T3feri, then immediately post a list that heavily relies on counters with the intent of not letting him resolve and tries to attack into him as a backup measure. It's moving the goal posts from fighting a "resolved" T3feri to fighting an unresolved one when you suggest defeating him with 2cmc counters and FoN, so I apologize if my comments came off as more than I intended.

You might have more creatures, but only 3 of them (Clique and Hulk) are even remotely considered beaters to be used mid game when your opponent isn't just done with life.

After playing with T3feri for awhile, I don't think it's exceedingly hard to play around creatures while he's in play. Leave mana up for removal... Use the removal. So I really struggle with the answer "You should tap a total of 4 lands to deal 3 unblockable damage to T3feri" when some simple vigilant play would +1 him to 5 if that line was even remotely relevant.

I'm just really annoyed with T3feri in general. He's incredibly hard to attack into because of instant speed Verdict and he shuts down 100% of your counter magic. Even with your list of counters, you have to accept that something will resolve, so you might as well consider one of the best walkers against you and one commonly played in UW. The control matchups I've played have devolved into "who can untap with a T3feri first". Even if he dies 3 turns later, you likely have all the tempo, are up a few cards, and have resolved something else very important without having to fight for it.

And after all that there's still the rest of the meta to consider.

Again, not trying to be a jerk. Just aggressively annoyed with T3feri despite playing him... alot.

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

Honestly, I just think that:

a) Despite being a huge Draw-Go fan. T3feri is a reasonable card with a reasonable flavor text (some people disagree, that's fine, everyone has its own take on the game).

b) The lists aforementioned are worse against T3feri, and there isn't much to say about it. If you (generic "you") complain about T3feri and, at the same time, run Teferi5 as your only out against it instead of Explosives/Sphere/BlastZone, while playing less counterspells that hit T3feri, I don't see the point of the argument itself. Playing more creatures * IS * a way to handle it, and between 2 Snaps + 2 Tar-Pit or 4 Snaps, 2 Vendilion, 4 Tar-Pit + 2 E.E. there's a huge difference. There are also more counterspells, true... but most of them have either other functions too (Cryptic, Charm, Drown) or they're free (Force), and using Cryptic as a bounce spell + Forcing Teferi in the opponent turn is very effective. I'm saying this because of experience, not just theoretically speaking.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

4-0'd FNM tonight, list felt stronger than ever. 2-1 Infect, 2-0 Grixis Ctrl, 2-0 Mardu Dreadhorde Stoneblade, and 2-1 Whirza. Will post more later. Pro tip -- Mystic Sanctuary is insane and a mainstay 1-of. Drown was amazing, even without any Thought Scours.

Edit: Here's the list:

The only thing I might consider changing is going to 3 Cryptics, since you can always buy them back (pretty much infinitely) with Mystic Sanctuary, so 3 may be enough. Not quite sure what I would add tho. Maybe the 3rd Force.

Didn't miss the Kaya's Guiles, 4th Path, 2nd Teferi Hero, etc. at all. Was glad to have the Zenith, but could see playing without it -- though it did we me games VERY quickly, again, especially with T3feri out.

Some things Drown did tonight: counter an Urza, Lord High Artificer, kill something that I had to let resolve at a later date, kill several T1/2 Glister elves, and more.

Sanctuary did some super nasty things like let me Charm my opp eot, Sanctuary it back and Think Twice into it to mind rot them again eot, untap Snap Charm (all off of a single copy of ECharm!). I also Cryptic-bounced my Sanctuary to replay it several times. No regrets.

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 2 years ago

We got the 4-0 tonight :) 1st place feels great.

First off, Mystic Sanctuary is bananas. The card single handedly won me 2 matches against Bant Spirits both times. Infinite Cryptic loop with a +ing Jace on board is great! It also helped me 2-0 burn by rebuying Guile a few times. I was on 1 for FnM but am 100% playing the 2nd after tonight. It was never dead and a few times I actually wanted the second so I'll be testing it.

Anyways on to my matches:

Round 1: Boros Burn: 2-0
Game 1: I had a decent hand. Guile, Push, Opt, Snap and a few lands. Ended up getting a few lands off his goblin guide which ate my push. Gained 4 with Guile then on t4 fetched Sanctuary and put it back. Eventually Snap guile and beat him down ending the game at 6.
Game 2: Brought in 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Purge, 1 Timely, 1 Guile, and 2 Path. Took out the 6 t1 discard, Azcanta and Big Tef. Ended up using Sanctuary to rebuy a Brutality and basically stripped his hand. Stabilized the board with a +ing Jace and eventually won off his ult at 1 life.

Round 2: Temur Delver: 2-0
Game 1: I had some early discard to take out his threats and his spells kind of don't line up without creatures. Ended up on the Tar Pit + Snap beat plan when he had nothing left.
Game 2: Cut 1 big Teferi, 1 Cryptic Command, Azcanta and 3 Esper Charm for 2 Co Bru, 2 Path and 2 Purge. Weird game where he tapped out to play threats then I tapped out to kill them. He runs a lot of Dispels, Spell Pierces and Veil of Summers so I didn't want to play in to them. Eventually won with a Spirit token beat.

Round 3: Bant Spirits: 1-0
Game 1: I didn't have any Verdicts in my main at this point. I had cut them a few months back and put them in the SB. Anyways he is on this weird build with Mariner and Thalia main. His board eventually is Mariner x2 anda few other Spirits. I had 8 mana and I just stuck a Jace the turn before. I draw into my 3rd Cryptic Command with 1 in yard and the other in hand still. I + Jace on him hoping he doesn't ever get a Queller while I loop tap + bounce on my Sanctuary. Eventually we get there with Jace ult and don't have the time for a second game. Really tough game but Infinite Cryptics paid off.

Round 4: Bant Spirits: 2-0
Game 1: t1 discard Queller, t2 discard CoCo and Push his Noble. T3 T3feri and the game was basically over from there. I countered a lot of stuff, removed some other stuff and rebought some stuff with Sanctuary.
Game 2: Weirdly enough, after a long fight I ulted Jace after looping Cryptics with Sanctuary like my round 3 match but unlike that match he never got to stick anything on board.

Final thoughts: After 4-0ing tonight I was really pleased with Sanctuary, it was never dead and a few times I wanted a second one to fetch up. Discard still felt great for me as well taking out threats and giving me basically perfect information. My new build is above with 2nd Sanctuary and a Verdict main again. I'm also debating cutting the big Teferi, in a lot of matches I really don't find the time to tap down for him. I'm kind of thinking about playing 2-3 Karn + the lattice package just to test it out but for now the list above is my current revisions. Sideboard could probably still use some cleaning up.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

A Cute Bunny wrote:
2 years ago
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We got the 4-0 tonight :) 1st place feels great.

First off, Mystic Sanctuary is bananas. The card single handedly won me 2 matches against Bant Spirits both times. Infinite Cryptic loop with a +ing Jace on board is great! It also helped me 2-0 burn by rebuying Guile a few times. I was on 1 for FnM but am 100% playing the 2nd after tonight. It was never dead and a few times I actually wanted the second so I'll be testing it.

Anyways on to my matches:

Round 1: Boros Burn: 2-0
Game 1: I had a decent hand. Guile, Push, Opt, Snap and a few lands. Ended up getting a few lands off his goblin guide which ate my push. Gained 4 with Guile then on t4 fetched Sanctuary and put it back. Eventually Snap guile and beat him down ending the game at 6.
Game 2: Brought in 2 Collective Brutality, 2 Purge, 1 Timely, 1 Guile, and 2 Path. Took out the 6 t1 discard, Azcanta and Big Tef. Ended up using Sanctuary to rebuy a Brutality and basically stripped his hand. Stabilized the board with a +ing Jace and eventually won off his ult at 1 life.

Round 2: Temur Delver: 2-0
Game 1: I had some early discard to take out his threats and his spells kind of don't line up without creatures. Ended up on the Tar Pit + Snap beat plan when he had nothing left.
Game 2: Cut 1 big Teferi, 1 Cryptic Command, Azcanta and 3 Esper Charm for 2 Co Bru, 2 Path and 2 Purge. Weird game where he tapped out to play threats then I tapped out to kill them. He runs a lot of Dispels, Spell Pierces and Veil of Summers so I didn't want to play in to them. Eventually won with a Spirit token beat.

Round 3: Bant Spirits: 1-0
Game 1: I didn't have any Verdicts in my main at this point. I had cut them a few months back and put them in the SB. Anyways he is on this weird build with Mariner and Thalia main. His board eventually is Mariner x2 anda few other Spirits. I had 8 mana and I just stuck a Jace the turn before. I draw into my 3rd Cryptic Command with 1 in yard and the other in hand still. I + Jace on him hoping he doesn't ever get a Queller while I loop tap + bounce on my Sanctuary. Eventually we get there with Jace ult and don't have the time for a second game. Really tough game but Infinite Cryptics paid off.

Round 4: Bant Spirits: 2-0
Game 1: t1 discard Queller, t2 discard CoCo and Push his Noble. T3 T3feri and the game was basically over from there. I countered a lot of stuff, removed some other stuff and rebought some stuff with Sanctuary.
Game 2: Weirdly enough, after a long fight I ulted Jace after looping Cryptics with Sanctuary like my round 3 match but unlike that match he never got to stick anything on board.

Final thoughts: After 4-0ing tonight I was really pleased with Sanctuary, it was never dead and a few times I wanted a second one to fetch up. Discard still felt great for me as well taking out threats and giving me basically perfect information. My new build is above with 2nd Sanctuary and a Verdict main again. I'm also debating cutting the big Teferi, in a lot of matches I really don't find the time to tap down for him. I'm kind of thinking about playing 2-3 Karn + the lattice package just to test it out but for now the list above is my current revisions. Sideboard could probably still use some cleaning up.
Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!

With all of that discard main, why no Drown in the Loch? Surely it's better than at least the Mana Leak?

With Sanctuary, do you feel like the 3rd Snap is still necessary?

Why Search for Azcanta?

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Post by Cow31337Killer » 2 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
With all of that discard main, why no Drown in the Loch?
Cause Drown in the Loch is hot garbage🔥

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Post by BloodyRabbit » 2 years ago

I do like the discard heavy builds at the moment, in conjunction with T3feri (would play the third copy).

Kaya's Guile isn't a maindeck card, IMHO. Not even in the slightest.

Drown in the Loch is simply hot. Just test it, and you'll see by yourself.

Search for Azcanta is a strange card, but I also would rather cut Big Teferi before it as a CA source, cause the scry is cool to have regardless. There's a possibility it wants to be either a Narset or the third Jace, though.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
2 years ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
With all of that discard main, why no Drown in the Loch?
Cause Drown in the Loch is hot garbage🔥
Remember that time, about 14 hours ago, where I went 4-0 in FNM with 3 mainboard Drown in the Loch and it was VERY good? I do. It was a fun time. :P

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 2 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago

Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys!

With all of that discard main, why no Drown in the Loch? Surely it's better than at least the Mana Leak?

With Sanctuary, do you feel like the 3rd Snap is still necessary?

Why Search for Azcanta?
I tested Loch for a while but my problem with the card is that it has a higher potential then Knot or Leak to be dead early and I'm not looking to replace a late game card for it personally. To me it's the kind of card you want to build around but I don't think it is good enough to be built around. Additionally it requires your opponent to play a specific deck or way for it to be live in the early turns which is where I want a card like this to be live. For instance, against Humans, Spirits, big mana and anything that doesn't go t1 fetch + 1 mana sorcery Loch isn't live... but having discard main does help facilitate Loch. Also, I don't want to replace any of my removal for it either because my other removal is just more efficient. Personally Loch isn't for me because it's highly likely it's dead early in my meta and I can't afford to have dead cards early.

Honestly, I'd probably play 4 Snap if I had it. Sanctuary is amazing at letting you buy back spells sure, but Snap gives us a way to actually close the game with chips of damage and most people won't try to remove it until they are about dead. I think 3/4 Snap is required and 1-2 Sanctuary will be as well.

Search for Azcanta feels good in a grindy meta. Having a card that gives you inevitability is always nice. It's in place of my 25th land so I'm not missing much and it still smooths out draws. I really enjoy it as a card especially with how few answers people are running for it right now. It's better then say a Narset because Narset only gives you instant gratification. With a live Azcanta ticking you out advantage every deck in the format even easier. I'm also not a fan of it being a 3rd Jace. I find it hard to tap out for Jace in a lot of situations and I often hate seeing the 2nd one. Not that 3 Jace is bad, a lot of people play it that way.

Kaya's Guile is a great card in the main for me. First it makes the burn match up a lot easier. Being able to 2-0 them regularly because of Guile. Second it gives us additional removal. Against a few decks like Bant Spirits and Bogles the Edict actually matters too. Third, it gives us a spellbomb. This one seems the worst sometimes but it eats the yard from Snap, Wren, Arcanist, Dredge, Knot, Gurmag etc. There is some good utility in this option. And last I have won many a games on Spirit beats. Sure the card isn't overwhelmingly strong but it is still highly playable and very flexible. Personally 2 is the right number for me in the main. That lets me see the card often enough when I really want to like against Burn and Hexproof things without having too many of them around. Usually you want to see just the first because Snap and now Mystic Sanctuary letting you buy it back.

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Post by Arkmer » 2 years ago

So... the jury is still out in Drown in the Loch? Seems like we have a mix of "it's amazing" and "it's not great". I still haven't played the card, I'm letting Friday drafts supply it for me in the long run.

I think we need to talk about what decks it's specifically good against and where it struggles. I think there's some good points about Humans and Spirits being a tough card to use because they aren't putting anything in their yard for us. Grixis Shadow and other similar decks are doing some filling but use a bunch of it to Delve for Gurmag, so that's mixed bag. Control lists tend to like to fill the yard by virtue of doing anything, Jund actively fills it, Whirza lists fill their yard reasonably well to make this work. Does anyone have any other lists they'd like to point out as making Drown more or less useful?

Could we use this as a measure of when Drown is good vs when it's bad? Or is there a better way to look at this?

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Post by A Cute Bunny » 2 years ago

Arkmer wrote:
2 years ago
So... the jury is still out in Drown in the Loch? Seems like we have a mix of "it's amazing" and "it's not great". I still haven't played the card, I'm letting Friday drafts supply it for me in the long run.

I think we need to talk about what decks it's specifically good against and where it struggles. I think there's some good points about Humans and Spirits being a tough card to use because they aren't putting anything in their yard for us. Grixis Shadow and other similar decks are doing some filling but use a bunch of it to Delve for Gurmag, so that's mixed bag. Control lists tend to like to fill the yard by virtue of doing anything, Jund actively fills it, Whirza lists fill their yard reasonably well to make this work. Does anyone have any other lists they'd like to point out as making Drown more or less useful?

Could we use this as a measure of when Drown is good vs when it's bad? Or is there a better way to look at this?
Bad:
Vial Decks: Humans, Spirits, Merfolk (They don't regularly put things in their yard)
Big Mana: Tron, Amulet Titan, Eldrazi (They do stuff at 6+ mana on turn 3 without having close to that many cards in the yard)
Delve cards: Shadow, Control specifically Grixis (but control mirrors are often draw go and Veto is much stronger here), Gurmag, Tassigur, Logic Knot etc (lots of cards can shut off Loch on their terms)
Midrangey Creature Decks: Druid Combo, Hardened Scales, Bogles, Bant Soulherder (Usually doesn't put much in their yard and go wide against us.)

Medium:
Urza: Split depending on their draw and build. Some lists use the yard a lot some want to keep everything on board for Outcome.
Titanshift: Depends on their draws if they ramp a lot early then we can probably hit a Shift or Titan.
Burn: This is ALMOST always live (cept when they have a creature heavy draw) against them but we don't really want to be trading down in mana.
Stoneblade: I mean, it has the potential to hit stuff in their deck but if you are on the draw this feels a lot worse then Snare or 1 mana removal.
Ad Naus: I mean if they don't have the pact in their hand then it probably works but I'd rather have a Veto to be sure to stop them.

Good?:
Jund: I mean it is the least dead against them and it probably has decent counter or removal targets, I'd personally rather have 1 mana removal unless I tag a walker with this.
Dredge: Never dead but I mean... not super great against them either cuz recursive threats.
5 Color Niv: It's probably going to be able to catch everything in this deck on curve since they want to keep their hand size down so they don't have to over discard to Niv and they can only single spell.
Infect: Sure, more removal is always nice because they have a lot of protection and hey this can catch most of the pump spells too.

So yeah, against basically every deck I'd rather have something else then this so I don't see the point of ever having this. The versatility doesn't make up for the cost or restrictions and it's more likely to be dead early where I want a card like this to be live.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

A Cute Bunny wrote:
2 years ago
Bad:
Vial Decks: Humans, Spirits, Merfolk (They don't regularly put things in their yard)
Except that most counterspells would be dead against these decks anyways. Drown is much better than, say, Mana Leak in these matchups because it can work as a removal spell. Keep in mind that Esper Charm and Fatal Push actively put cards in your opponent's graveyard in a proactive way as well.
Big Mana: Tron, Amulet Titan, Eldrazi (They do stuff at 6+ mana on turn 3 without having close to that many cards in the yard)
Yeah, Drown is actively bad in these matchups.
Delve cards: Shadow, Control specifically Grixis (but control mirrors are often draw go and Veto is much stronger here), Gurmag, Tassigur, Logic Knot etc (lots of cards can shut off Loch on their terms)
But you don't need to counter the Delve spells (except maybe against Shadow, but then Drown usually hits Shadow itself, discard spells, and either Snapcaster Mage or Ranger-Captain of Eos). Mostly, you want Drown to hit Snapcaster Mage and Kommand, and sometimes Cryptic/Force in these matchups, and that's not too hard to do.
Midrangey Creature Decks: Druid Combo, Hardened Scales, Bogles, Bant Soulherder (Usually doesn't put much in their yard and go wide against us.)
Drown isn't great against Druid Combo until about T3, but if you survive until then, it's the best card in your deck. Against Hardened Scales, Drown is fine -- it hits Stirrings and Hardened Scales pretty easily, and always kills a resolved Ballista or a manland. Against Bogles, Drown is better than any other removal spell because it can can be used as a counterspell. Soulherder is very slow, so it doesn't really matter how long it takes Drown to come online. Any counterspell is great against them.
Medium:
Urza: Split depending on their draw and build. Some lists use the yard a lot some want to keep everything on board for Outcome.
Titanshift: Depends on their draws if they ramp a lot early then we can probably hit a Shift or Titan.
Agreed. Will note that Drown usually hits ramp spells pretty easily too, which can be good depending on your hand.
Burn: This is ALMOST always live (cept when they have a creature heavy draw) against them but we don't really want to be trading down in mana.
Stoneblade: I mean, it has the potential to hit stuff in their deck but if you are on the draw this feels a lot worse then Snare or 1 mana removal.
Again, I'd say that Drown is much better in these matchups than you give it credit for. If you topdeck a counterspell after either of these decks resolve a creature, it's going to look really silly. If you topdeck a Drown, you can typically keep up with their threats with removal. Sure, if you hit a Stoneforge after it resolves they get the Batterskull, but we have plenty of ways of dealing with a 5-mana sorcery-speed non-creature spell (hint, ECharm in discard mode is insane here). You're unlikely to win a G1 against Burn, but if you do, step one is keeping creatures out of play. Drown does that, but can also counter a Boros Charm. We don't have any other counterspell/removal spell that does this.
Ad Naus: I mean if they don't have the pact in their hand then it probably works but I'd rather have a Veto to be sure to stop them.
I would say that Drown is a little worse here than any 2-mana counter, as it needs some work to hit Ad Nauseaum itself. But again, it's still better than a Fatal Push!
Good?:
Jund: I mean it is the least dead against them and it probably has decent counter or removal targets, I'd personally rather have 1 mana removal unless I tag a walker with this.
Infect: Sure, more removal is always nice because they have a lot of protection and hey this can catch most of the pump spells too.
Again, the fact that Drown is never a dead topdeck against them, even when you're behind (i.e., they already have a creature on board), is very important. If you play a little with it in these matchups, I'm sure you'll agree.
Dredge: Never dead but I mean... not super great against them either cuz recursive threats.
Yada yada, better than other removal spells, yada yada. I'm sure it's getting old at this point.

I really think you're sleeping on this card.

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Cow31337Killer
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 2 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
I really think you're sleeping on this card.
Or maybe the card is just not that good?

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TheAnnihilator
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 2 years ago

Cow31337Killer wrote:
2 years ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
I really think you're sleeping on this card.
Or maybe the card is just not that good?
I mean, if this is the only part of my post that you can reply to, that doesn't exactly convince me that Drown is a bad card. You're entitled to your opinion, but I have my own anecdotal evidence that the card is good, and I'm going to continue to test it.

You might be able to convince me that 2 is better than 3 or 4 for X, Y, and Z reasons. However, you'd have to present me with a very compelling argument for me to renounce the card that just got me a 4-0 against only meta decks at FNM with it on the first day I played Esper with it. :) $60 store credit speaks a lot louder to me than unconstructive criticism does. And yes, I do understand that I'm just an FNM warrior.

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Post by MashedPotato » 2 years ago

I'm not 100% on any of the new ELD cards for Esper yet.
I can see what Drown offers, but I'm sticking to spell snare for now as my counter in my flex slot. Its hard to beat countering many meta cards with 2CMC for one blue. I am keeping my eye on it though, as I think options in Esper is the biggest strength we have, much like Charm and Guile, I am of the opinion that options essentially offer us a deck larger than what is on the table. Just like how Wear // Tear is there for Boros Burn.

I am more interested in Mystic Sanctuary though, might be enough to have a field of ruin or two dropped in place of it though. Extra recursion in a grindy game can never be bad. Especially if you have been forced to play removal on every turn, if not more than once.

Keen to see more results before I play test any new additions, but I will be buying Drown for my Standard Grixis Control that I keep updating for fun in between events or at the table at home
There is always a greater power

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Cow31337Killer
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Post by Cow31337Killer » 2 years ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
2 years ago
However, you'd have to present me with a very compelling argument for me to renounce the card that just got me a 4-0 against only meta decks at FNM with it on the first day I played Esper with it. $60 store credit speaks a lot louder to me than unconstructive criticism does.
Wow, I'm so happy for you. Maybe if you gave a little more detail on the decks you faced and the number of times you actually ended up using the Drown in the Loch? FNM isn't exactly the pinnacle of competitive play, so excuse me if you going 4-0 running the card isn't enough to convince me how "great" it is. Hell, I've gone 4-0 running 8-whack goblins before, but that doesn't suddenly make it the best deck in the format.

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