Topical Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Ban List

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not-a-cube
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Post by not-a-cube » 11 months ago

I don't think they should ban them, the cards aren't broken, they actually seem kinda fun to build around. The RC should just focus on game breaking cards.

Still dissapointed about wotc printing exclusives in secret lairs, but in the end they'll do what they want. Even if these were skins akin to the godzilla cards, or silver bordered, I'd never buy them, because the theme and art is not my cup of tea. But that should be unrelated to banning them.
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Post by cryogen » 11 months ago

Peterhausenn wrote:
11 months ago
cryogen wrote:
11 months ago
Peterhausenn wrote:
11 months ago
the rules committee are bought and paid for by wizards now (and have been for some time). any rule changes wizards wants or any pushed cards they print the rc capitulates to. ive played edh for well over a decade now and this format looks nothing like what it was. a lot of the defining characteristics of the format have been removed and the rc has given a thumbs up each time to their removal. this will be more of the same. the rc no longer cares for the health of the format, just their own personal agendas and protecting wizards cash cow.
This iz just plain wrong. I'm not going to dissect this entire post because it's almost completely conspiracy theory stuff, but feel free to cite concrete examples.

FWIW, I've also been playing for a decade and every rules change I have seen has come from the RC, and only one of those rules makes the format any different than it was (removing the mana generation rule). What else has changed the format so drastically that it looks nothing like it did 10 years ago?
the legend rule, the color identity rule, using planeswalkers as a commander, having more than one commander, having more than 100 cards in your deck, the tuck rule, and as you mentioned the mana generation rule. these were all basic pillars of the format that have been changed or removed over the past few years. people complain about power creep in cards all the time but if something like the color identity rule was as it used to be golos would be an afterthought of a card. rule changes have harmed this format more than power creep has.
I'm not sure how the legend rule change affected Commander. It nerfed cards like Phantasmal Image being used as a removal spell, but I don't see how it impacted the format meaningfully. The color identity rule and tuck rules were things the Rules Committee did, not Wizards, and I would argue they strengthened the format by highlighting the importance of the face card for your deck as well as its identity.

I'll give you planeswalkers as commanders as well as the partner mechanic, as those were things Wizards pushed and the RC had to adapt to (although since one of the members of the RC is a WotC employee it's not like they were blindsided and they did have an opportunity to offer input during the design stage). But while those cards messed around in the design space of the Command Zone, the core philosophy of your deck being led by a unique character of Magic lore.

And you got me on the 100 card deck size with companions. They absolutely should have counted as part of your 100. But that was a decision the RC made, not WotC.

Overall, I think powercreep has been the most damaging thing to the format since you and I started playing. Remember how OP generals like Uril and Rafiq used to be? And how a kicked Rite of Replication was game breaking?
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Post by Airi » 11 months ago

not-a-cube wrote:
11 months ago
I don't think they should ban them, the cards aren't broken, they actually seem kinda fun to build around. The RC should just focus on game breaking cards.
I can't really fault you for having that opinion, but personally I think that the RC has an obligation to protect EDH players from predatory practices from WotC. Banning mechanically unique secret lair cards makes it a lot harder for WotC to justify doing so in the future, as they're barred from use in the most popular format they'd be legal in. It protects people who are physically unable to participate in the product release due to where they live, and it protects other players from feeling obligated to pick up extra cards just due to the availability. It's not even on the same page as the reserve list, imo, because this is just scarcity for the sake of it.
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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

cryogen wrote:
11 months ago
Overall, I think powercreep has been the most damaging thing to the format since you and I started playing. Remember how OP generals like Uril and Rafiq used to be? And how a kicked Rite of Replication was game breaking?
Not sure I've seen something I agreed with more in a while :) It's outta control.

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Post by Hermes_ » 11 months ago

Peterhausenn wrote:
11 months ago

Hermes_ wrote:
11 months ago
Proof please, all we know is that Sheldon worked for as a contracted worker last year I think it was during his treatment at the time, and Scott works for them directly
you just mentioned the proof. and lets be honest, the only reason why the rules committee is still around is wizards fears the backlash of removing them from the player base. edh was a home grown format for the longest time and an unofficial one at that. once it became commander wizards took control of it which was their right since its their intellectual property. the rules committee were once stewards of the format guiding and protecting it. now they just go along with whatever their told.
Umm Sheldon isn't working for them anymore and is currently going back into treatment for his cancer ( :( ), and well with Scott it's his job which is on the E-sports side of the office. Anything beyond that is just conspiracy theory.

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Post by able archer » 11 months ago

So I've given it a couple of days of thought, and my conclusion is twofold:
  1. There are three-and-a-half major arguments for banning these in EDH.
  2. None of them hold up.
1. "These are a cash grab/intentionally limited, so we should ban them on principle."

The beauty of EDH is that unlike other formats, there isn't a defining best strategy for the overwhelming majority of environments. cEDH is a very small sliver of the community, and even there, there are still a multitude of top-tier deck builds and strategies (at least since the banning of Flash, which is tangentially relevant but not enough so for me to delve in-depth.) You don't need all the most expensive cards to play in an environment--and even if your playgroup is higher power, proxies or simple communication are always options. Not every product is for everyone.

To wit, there already is an artificial barrier to entry imposed on some cards with the RL. Do we say that these should be banned too? Sheldon stated as late as December of last year that scarcity/price is no longer an argument they use for banning a card. Thereby, this argument comes off as innately selfish, the inverse of the "I got mine so eff the rest" saw. To quote the official philosophy page:
The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others' opportunities. No single rule can establish criteria for a ban.
2. "TWD doesn't belong in Magic, so we should ban it on principle."

Ever since 1999, we have had an entire set pulled straight from another property: Portal: 3 Kingdoms. We have another one coming next year. Saying what aesthetically is "part of the game" and what isn't is entirely subjective and capricious: to use it as reasoning for a ban is dangerous. I have already seen reports of people excited to get in/back into the game with TWD as an impetus. Do we gatekeep them from using the cards that sparked their interest in one of the largest formats just because? I hope not.

(As an aside, I started following the game back in OG Ravnica. The number of things I've seen described as "not belonging" in Magic by now is too long to count. Little is sacred here.)

3. "The RC should be the voice of the community, and the majority has spoken for a bam."

The online community is not everyone that plays EDH. This is axiomatically true: to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. Similarly, it's within human nature to seek out things to criticize than to praise, especially on the Internet where opinions get amplified and reflected.

I also have the real fear that with the sanctioning of EDH as a format, the RC is no longer truly independent from WotC; and doing something to harm Hasbro's bottom line (like a ban) may cause the dissolution of the RC altogether.

3.5. "I don't like TWD."

...then that's a you problem. Please reread my point #2.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To anyone who read this, thanks for sticking with me, and going forward I hope you'll at least examine this release a bit more critically. I don't expect to change minds, though: this is a polarizing issue. But if I haven't, at least listen to my conclusion.

Banning these cards in EDH will do nothing but hurt the community. If you don't support Wizards' move of releasing this product, do not order it from them; do not buy the cards on the secondary market; and continue to respectfully voice criticism while understanding this is a complex problem. That's how to make an impact.

tl;dr -- Ban Cyclonic Rift.
Last edited by able archer 11 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by onering » 11 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
I think this is an overreaction, Sheldon said on twitter that they've gotten a ton of feedback and are reviewing the issue, and will release a statement before the cards are released.

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Post by Airi » 11 months ago

onering wrote:
11 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
I think this is an overreaction, Sheldon said on twitter that they've gotten a ton of feedback and are reviewing the issue, and will release a statement before the cards are released.
Cryo (who's a mod on the discord as well) pointed out it was a measure with a set time duration anyways to calm things down. When stuff gets moving that fast and you have people who are very angry, it's a nightmare to try to moderate it on top of the back and forth usually resulting in a lot more actions that usually need to be taken. Between here and Sally, we've also temporarily locked threads (including the predecessor to this thread on several occasions). It's mostly just a measure so that people can take a breather and hopefully, no one hits enough moderator actions, or whatever the discord equivalent is, to reach a more serious disciplinary measure. It always feels bad to have to step in like that, especially when you're just as invested in the topic.

As it's since been restored, I wouldn't worry too much about them trying to completely silence the conversation. :)
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Post by tstorm823 » 11 months ago

able archer wrote:
11 months ago
3.5. "I don't like TWD."
On the record, I'm not calling for these to be banned, but also The Walking Dead is like the worst. I semi-enjoyed the first season, and then I stopped caring, and then I saw one particular episode involving a deer, and oh boy can I rant about that episode.
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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

It's not going to affect me one jot whether they're banned or not since I have zero access to them. I think it's a crummy thing to do from Hasbro, but it isn't the first and won't be the last so I guess it's not the end of the world. Frankly I'm just a little baffled that this is the crossover they thought the community would want. Like, why not GoT or LotR? Those make infinitely more sense. Maybe it was what they could afford, but either way, it screams jumping the shark to me.

The only reason I'd want to see these banned is to draw a line in the sand that the community won't stand for this sort of practice. Maybe banning is a bit rough, and hollering for it probably does put the RC in a bit of a corner, so I think it's probably likely to be something they end up making a special case for....whatever that looks like.

As for any 'bought and paid for' conspiracies around the RC and CAG, I mean.....this probably isn't the hill you want to die on. This is literally the most socially influenced format in the game, and they all actively participate in conversation with the community to get a better feel for what the community wants and how the format is going. Hell, they instituted the CAG to help them get more reach in doing so. Bare minimum 2 of the RC are members here at Nexus, for example. And Sheldon is doing this all while going through significant systemic cancer therapy. From my RL work I know the regime he is on is known to quite rough too, and he still takes on the ire of the commander zeitgeist on top of that. To accuse them of being inside men is not accurate or warranted.
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

I would absolutely like to see a line drawn regarding this sort of behavior on the part of WotC/Hasbro, but whatever the RC end up doing with this, it is absolutely important to remember that they are not at all the bad guys here. Sheldon and other RC members have time and time again shown an astounding amount of grace and patience in the face of the most ridiculous assertions regarding their character. We needn't always agree with them - I certainly don't - but they have earned more than a modicrum of trust and respect.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 11 months ago

able archer wrote:
11 months ago
So I've given it a couple of days of thought, and my conclusion is twofold:
Thank you for articulating your points so clearly, Able Archer, I'll address them one by one. I'm not quoting your whole post because this is long enough.

These are no scarcer than some RL cards
There are three major differences between this and the RL or other scarce cards. The RL was created after the cards had been available in packs, rather than as a cash-grab on release. That is a significant difference of intent, which can matter here. It also leads into the second point, which is that players own those cards and would be hurt by a ban of the RL. No players own the TWD cards yet, they have not even been printed. Every ban is to some extent a cost-benefit analysis. One of the major costs of an RL ban does not currently exist for the SL. Lastly, because players and LGSs own RL cards, they have accessibility beyond their price. While I might not be able to buy a Bayou, I might find someone who can trade one for cards I have, or save up store credit to buy one from my LGS. Because these are a premium product that bypasses LGSs, no-one will buy these cards unless they want to use them themselves, or scalp them. They won't be in binders, they won't be in LGSs. You can only buy them through WotC or online scalpers. These will start out more accessible than the RL cards on a single axis and rapidly become less accessible than all of them.

The RC doesn't ban based on accessibility
The RC ultimately bans or doesn't ban on what is healthy or not for the format. They did not ban for cEDH until Flash Hulk created an unprecedented circumstance and they decided a majority of the cEDH niche being miserable was not healthy for the format. They did not ban cards before release until they saw Lutri being a must-have for every Izzet deck and decided that was bad for the format. Predatory marketing schemes are not healthy for the format either. This is the first of such targeted at EDH. This is the point at which they decide how to respond. At no point prior have they had to.

TWD is no more of a tonal and thematic shift than D&D, Arabian Nights and Portal Three Kingdoms
This is the point on which I most agree with you, however Arabian Nights, Portal Three Kingdoms and D&D are within the same genre of epic fantasy. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is closer to the legend of King Arthur than to actual Chinese history, full of wizards, magical heroes and enchanted weapons. D&D is high-magic sword and sorcery fantasy quite similar to Dominaria or Zendikar.
The Walking Dead is a realist work of science-fiction, with guns, cars, and emphatically non-magical walkers. The difference is one of degree, but TWD is several degrees further from the tone of black border than anything before. You can draw a reasonable line around D&D and the rest that still excludes TWD and the dreaded Rick and Morty SL.

The online community is not everyone that plays EDH.
No, but it is a representation of it. When every visible community is overwhelmingly in favor of a ban, that says something. Almost anyone can join the conversation. Those who cannot, those without any internet connection and who don't know anyone who has an internet connection, are already excluded from the SL. On previous bans, people have come out of the woodwork to defend the card(s) in question. Flash had more proponents, Prophet certainly had more proponents. You cannot say that only the naysayers speak online, or that such a ratio of pro-ban to anti-ban is ordinary if you look at past ban discussions. This is the closest to a consensus the online magic community has come in years, maybe a decade, on anything. You cannot dismiss that fact.

WotC will take over EDH
They can try. They have tried a couple times, with Brawl and the Online banned list. Both have all but collapsed outside of MTGO and Arena. This is where the majority comes in again. Presented with a clear alternative, the thousands of EDH players who don't trust WotC will just ignore their banlist. The RC has existed before WotC supported the format, they will exist after. The RC has even banned cards explicitly targeted at EDH before, such as Trade Secrets and Griselbrand, for which WotC created oversized promos. WotC didn't even blink. Collectors, casual whales, and some Legacy players will already buy these. A ban won't seriously hurt WotC. Finally, even WotC did manage to kidnap Sheldon or whatever and make him unban these, how would that be any worse for the format than if the RC caved and never banned them at all?
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Another issue that needs to be noted here is that the Secret Lair products are, by their very nature, an example of created scarcity, and that this is a bad thing for the game.

WotC has long recognized that creating cards which are legal for general play but which are released in some manner that makes them inaccessible to the majority of players is a bad thing for the game. Nalathni Dragon and the way Mana Vault was originally available only to people who bought a MtG novel and sent in the coupon included in the book were quickly recognized as mistakes, and WotC stopped doing such things. Mark Rosewater himself wrote about this in an article several years ago. More recently, they stopped doing unique cards as buy-a-box promos for this very reason, yet a few months later, here we are again, with a product specifically sold and priced by WotC and, in practical terms, with a much smaller print run than the buy-a-box cards. If someone has actual numbers and I am incorrect, feel free to correct me, but I suspect the most-purchased Secret Lair sets to date were produced in numbers vastly less than Kenrith or Nexus of Fate.

Comparing a Secret Lair release, which by its nature is exclusive and difficult to access, to cards which are expensive and scarce mostly because they were released decades ago, is a pretty false argument. It isn't even comparing apples to oranges. More like apples to airliners.
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Post by pokken » 11 months ago

JWK wrote:
11 months ago
an example of created scarcity
To be fair that's wotc's business model. They intentionally print 100 cards that are hot garbage for constructed for every 1 that is playable and make people buy random grab bags that sometimes have playables in them.

Not to mention all the other things like FTVs, Masters sets, etc.

The more I think on it I'm not sure this is really fundamentally different than booster packs, especially of masters sets. And people are upset about it more because it's saying the quiet part out loud than anything different from the status quo.

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Post by Airi » 11 months ago

pokken wrote:
11 months ago
The more I think on it I'm not sure this is really fundamentally different than booster packs, especially of masters sets. And people are upset about it more because it's saying the quiet part out loud than anything different from the status quo.
Given it's limited time availability (most sets are printed to demand for a while after release) and limited distribution market, with a large number of people being able to even purchase them, I'd say they're extremely different than booster packs.
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Post by JWK » 11 months ago

Airi wrote:
11 months ago
pokken wrote:
11 months ago
The more I think on it I'm not sure this is really fundamentally different than booster packs, especially of masters sets. And people are upset about it more because it's saying the quiet part out loud than anything different from the status quo.
Given it's limited time availability (most sets are printed to demand for a while after release) and limited distribution market, with a large number of people being able to even purchase them, I'd say they're extremely different than booster packs.
Very much so. Different than boosters, commander precons and anything else. This is very much not business as usual, and it's a business model that is toxic to the game.

It's also a lot different from FTV and Spellbook products. As best I can recall, they have never included brand new, mechanically unique cards.
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Post by toctheyounger » 11 months ago

Airi wrote:
11 months ago
pokken wrote: ↑52 minutes ago
The more I think on it I'm not sure this is really fundamentally different than booster packs, especially of masters sets. And people are upset about it more because it's saying the quiet part out loud than anything different from the status quo.
Given it's limited time availability (most sets are printed to demand for a while after release) and limited distribution market, with a large number of people being able to even purchase them, I'd say they're extremely different than booster packs.
I think there's similiarities to the high-cost high-reward buy in of masters sets, but it still seems extortionate. Like, for all of the ire that people had with Nalathni Dragon, this is blatantly worse. You don't get it for showing up to a con, or mailing in a coupon, you get it by giving Wizards a pound of flesh. The fact that all they need to do to tank someone's investment in the product is 'godzilla' print them makes spending money on it a farce, and removes all credibility from the product whatsoever. At least with masters sets we can buy singles here and there.

All this aside, I just hate that this is the franchise they chose. Well, firstly I hate that they chose a franchise to bleed over in the first place, it hugely breaks immersion and this doesn't fit at all (like seriously, if it was a Halloween release there are a number of far more fitting franchises out there) with MtG lore. It makes me wonder if there's some dissatisfaction with the story team around how things are going there, because this is just so ham-fisted. But THIS franchise? It's awful. Middle Earth, Westeros, Wallachia, Lovecraft, Brandon Sanderson (who is a HUGE MtG fan and has written for them before), any or all of these would fit better, and that's off the top of my head. But like, back your products man, it's 25+ years old and has a depth of lore that doesn't need this sort of cash in to make money. It's so tone deaf it's terrible.
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Post by Mookie » 11 months ago

Alright, I'm switching my position. This is entirely because I realized one of the cards would actually be pretty good for one of my decks, but I refuse to run it on principle (specifically, Daryl, Hunter of Walkers in my Samut deck). As an actual MTG card, I'd be totally fine running it... but as a TWD-flavored card? Yeah, I don't even want to be tempted.

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Post by onering » 11 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago


WotC will take over EDH
They can try. They have tried a couple times, with Brawl and the Online banned list. Both have all but collapsed outside of MTGO and Arena. This is where the majority comes in again. Presented with a clear alternative, the thousands of EDH players who don't trust WotC will just ignore their banlist. The RC has existed before WotC supported the format, they will exist after. The RC has even banned cards explicitly targeted at EDH before, such as Trade Secrets and Griselbrand, for which WotC created oversized promos. WotC didn't even blink. Collectors, casual whales, and some Legacy players will already buy these. A ban won't seriously hurt WotC. Finally, even WotC did manage to kidnap Sheldon or whatever and make him unban these, how would that be any worse for the format than if the RC caved and never banned them at all?
The online banlist is pretty much only used for 1v1 tournaments on mtgo now, I never see it played in the non tournament room. It was DOA and the immediate, intense backlash cause WotC to backtrack their stated plans to have it be the only banlist online within days of the announcement. They ended up forcing it for a month anyway before bringing the real list back, and EDH was a deadzone for that month. It was a complete %$#% show. Then, the actual tournament results were radically skewed to one or two clearly best strats, which led to bannings every month and a huge banlist, and they never, not once, were able to craft a reasonably balanced format. After a year of a broken format with an enormous banlist and no hope of ever being balanced, they stopped updating the online banlist and gave up.

This, this here comes close to how badly that ban list was received. The backlash isn't quite as intense, but it is more unified (there were a few loud supporters of the online ban list who beclowned themselves).

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Post by onering » 11 months ago

Airi wrote:
11 months ago
onering wrote:
11 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
11 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
I think this is an overreaction, Sheldon said on twitter that they've gotten a ton of feedback and are reviewing the issue, and will release a statement before the cards are released.
Cryo (who's a mod on the discord as well) pointed out it was a measure with a set time duration anyways to calm things down. When stuff gets moving that fast and you have people who are very angry, it's a nightmare to try to moderate it on top of the back and forth usually resulting in a lot more actions that usually need to be taken. Between here and Sally, we've also temporarily locked threads (including the predecessor to this thread on several occasions). It's mostly just a measure so that people can take a breather and hopefully, no one hits enough moderator actions, or whatever the discord equivalent is, to reach a more serious disciplinary measure. It always feels bad to have to step in like that, especially when you're just as invested in the topic.

As it's since been restored, I wouldn't worry too much about them trying to completely silence the conversation. :)
I meant that the idea that the RC shut down dissent was an overreaction, as Sheldon had tweeted out that they've received a lot of feedback and are discussing the matter. The tweet, to me, says that they are listening to community feedback and taking it into account, not silencing dissent, which is backed up by what Cryogen said (though I've been a part of enough online communities to understand that sometimes you just got to shut %$#% down so people can chill the %$#% out, and that's not silencing dissent).

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Post by Dunharrow » 11 months ago

Airi wrote:
11 months ago
not-a-cube wrote:
11 months ago
I don't think they should ban them, the cards aren't broken, they actually seem kinda fun to build around. The RC should just focus on game breaking cards.
I can't really fault you for having that opinion, but personally I think that the RC has an obligation to protect EDH players from predatory practices from WotC. Banning mechanically unique secret lair cards makes it a lot harder for WotC to justify doing so in the future, as they're barred from use in the most popular format they'd be legal in. It protects people who are physically unable to participate in the product release due to where they live, and it protects other players from feeling obligated to pick up extra cards just due to the availability. It's not even on the same page as the reserve list, imo, because this is just scarcity for the sake of it.
I disagree with this. The RC does not need to protect the playerbase from WOTC. If this were 7-8 years ago, maybe you would be right. But now, with the number of new legendary creatures we get every year, I just do not think TWD cards will matter. I do not like this Secret Lair, but I didn't like them before TWD either. This is just an escalation of something I already didn't like.
It is true that some of these cards could end up being sought after commanders. But they are not auto-includes like Lutri, the Spellchaser. They are not going to warp the format. Angus Mackenzie is not banned. We manage to get by with RL in the format and we will get by with these cards.

So yeah - the RC's duty is to the health of the format, not to policing the scarcity of cards. Library of Alexandria is the one card that is closest to this line but the RC has never banned it - though it could literally be in every commander deck.

Though we all dislike this secret lair, and the idea of having mechanically unique cards sold like this, the RC is not responsible for telling WOTC that the playerbase doesn't like this.

They will not ban these cards. Most of us will not even see them in action. And if one of them is a sought-after card for commander then they will print a functional reprint or the RC could ban that card specifically.
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Post by Airi » 11 months ago

I'm moving one of these quotes out of order because I want to put in a small side quip before I address the main point (the bottom two quotes), just so the bulk of my argument and issue is the end point of the post.
They will not ban these cards. Most of us will not even see them in action. And if one of them is a sought-after card for commander then they will print a functional reprint or the RC could ban that card specifically.
I would like to point out that a functional reprint is part of the issue here. If you can run your exact commander in your main deck, why wouldn't you? Kind of separate, but to me a functional reprint isn't a solution by any means.
Dunharrow wrote:
11 months ago
I disagree with this. The RC does not need to protect the playerbase from WOTC. If this were 7-8 years ago, maybe you would be right. But now, with the number of new legendary creatures we get every year, I just do not think TWD cards will matter. I do not like this Secret Lair, but I didn't like them before TWD either. This is just an escalation of something I already didn't like.
It is true that some of these cards could end up being sought after commanders. But they are not auto-includes like Lutri, the Spellchaser. They are not going to warp the format. Angus Mackenzie is not banned. We manage to get by with RL in the format and we will get by with these cards.

So yeah - the RC's duty is to the health of the format, not to policing the scarcity of cards. Library of Alexandria is the one card that is closest to this line but the RC has never banned it - though it could literally be in every commander deck.
This isn't the same as Library though. The reserved list, much as I despise it's existence, was a precedent long before this format's existence. These do impact the health of the format, because even without them being strong or broken, there is a very large subset of the format's player base who will not have the option to purchase these regardless of their financial means simply because of where they live.
Though we all dislike this secret lair, and the idea of having mechanically unique cards sold like this, the RC is not responsible for telling WOTC that the playerbase doesn't like this.
It's not really about them sending a message for the players though, the internet has done a pretty good job of that already. To me, it's about the RC making sure their players don't feel like they have to go for broke on a product because those specific cards, mechanically, are only ever going to be available for like 5 days. Sure, WotC could reprint the cards later, just like they could make sure the enemy fetchlands weren't roughly $75 a pop. To me, there shouldn't be that kind of pressure to try to get a hold of cool new cards, many of which will really only ever have a place in this format.

I don't have a good way to articulate the difference as to why I think the RC should take action here and not the reserve list other than to say that to me, there is a profound difference (to me) between a crappy policy that the format was created in spite of, and a new predatory marketing practice that almost certainly targets this format in particular.

I can't change your view on this, but I really hope the RC things long and hard about how they'd like their players, and their format to be treated.
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Post by Wallycaine » 11 months ago

Worth pointing out that while a functional reprint is one possibility, they also can create an actual reprint with a Magic name and flavor, ala inverse Godzilla cards. If they print Gorthos, Tyrant King with a little bar under it that says Neegan, The Cold-Blooded, then that's still a Neegan for deckbuilding purposes. Every statement I've seen from Wizards/Maro implies that that would be the route they'd pursue first, and a functional reprint would be a last resort (But one they presumably want to keep open, in case there are copyright/licensing issues).

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Post by Airi » 11 months ago

Wallycaine wrote:
11 months ago
Worth pointing out that while a functional reprint is one possibility, they also can create an actual reprint with a Magic name and flavor, ala inverse Godzilla cards. If they print Gorthos, Tyrant King with a little bar under it that says Neegan, The Cold-Blooded, then that's still a Neegan for deckbuilding purposes. Every statement I've seen from Wizards/Maro implies that that would be the route they'd pursue first, and a functional reprint would be a last resort (But one they presumably want to keep open, in case there are copyright/licensing issues).
And I shall concede that point when WotC does so. Until then, it's just a weak cop out to reduce the amount of criticism they're seeing over the product. And honestly, even if they do exactly that, it's still a really awful precedent to give exclusive early access to cards.

I'm not blaming MaRo personally for it, he's the unfortunate messenger and face for this debacle. WotC can have my goodwill towards their intent and actions when they've earned it. Which at this rate, is never.
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Post by cryogen » 11 months ago

Toby on the RC discord said that's the easy way to handle the functional reprint issue, so worrying about two copies showing up isn't a big concern. Especially since the WU one might be playable in Legacy and if it is they won't want 8 copies showing up.



Also, expect an announcement around 11pm Eastern tomorrow regarding the RC's decision.
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