Topical Discussion of the Official Multiplayer Ban List

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Post by pokken » 1 year ago

cryogen wrote:
1 year ago
So I haven't put a lot of deep thought into this yet, but just glancing st the list of partner commanders, what changes do you think we would see if the Commander damage rule was changed such that you lost of you received a combined 21 points of commander damage from a player's full team of generals?
I think it's pretty dangerously likely it makes the partners, particularly a mix of akiri, tymna, kraum, sidar and ishai (and maybe reyhan too) the de facto best ways to play equipment voltron, essentially allowing you to dodge commander tax.

Akiri/Tymna are already one of the better equipment pairings and if they could both do voltron damage I think it'd be quite a lot better than other options.

In general I think we should never do anything to improve partners in any way. They already obsolete probably 80% of generals if you're talking pure power level for any given strategy.

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Post by CrazyPierre » 1 year ago

Bribery is fine if your meta has as bunch of jank in their decks. If everyone is running Kiki/Blightsteel etc it's more noxious, but at least it breaks their combo.
Against the combined 21 from Partners, stuff like Bruse Tarl would just get crazy.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-09-28
So. WotC has decided to print unique, Secret Lair-exclusive, black-border cards, targetted at EDH. While the initial cards are quite weak, so were the first unique box-toppers, so were the first mythics. I am of the opinion that these should be categorically banned, before we get a Secret-Lair-exclusive staple.

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Post by Airi » 6 months ago

I'll just rephrase what I said in the new card thread, but Hate. Hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, double hate. LOATH entirely.

I sincerely hope it bites the dust prior to the card going on sale, it sets a really, really bad precedent on WotC's part, and I couldn't be more disappointed. They already have a system in place for re-skinning legendaries like the did with the Godzilla cards, so this is kind of just a slap in the face.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

These also won't be reprinted outside of Secret Lair. They are, to some extent, already on the Reserved list. A card like that doesn't need to be that powerful to be absolutely miserable.
Somebody put up a poll on the RC discord (which is currently on fire) I'll link it here

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Post by onering » 6 months ago

Looks like the entirety of TWD's remaining fanbase voted not to ban lol

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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

Even some of the last TWD fans still think these are a mistake. They're both exclusive and tacky.

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Post by tstorm823 » 6 months ago

So like, "we'll reprint these with different vorthos if people want more of them" is an interesting response. I'm perfectly satisfied with collectors items for collectors and functionally equivalent versions for everyone else, but it's an interesting question how they would implement that. Would they wait for an appropriate product to sneak them into? Would they rerun the secret lair without the limitation? Sometimes good things you didn't expect come from solving new problems.
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Post by JWK » 6 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
6 months ago
So like, "we'll reprint these with different vorthos if people want more of them" is an interesting response. I'm perfectly satisfied with collectors items for collectors and functionally equivalent versions for everyone else, but it's an interesting question how they would implement that. Would they wait for an appropriate product to sneak them into? Would they rerun the secret lair without the limitation? Sometimes good things you didn't expect come from solving new problems.
If they weren't doing this just as a huge money grab with no concern for the format, they could have designed these cards as they did with the Ikoria/Godzilla cards and put the non-Walking Dead version in COMMANDER LEGENDS. Then these could serve as a cool preview/lead in to some of the CL cards.

But that would require a) planning, and b) that the decisions be made by people who care about the health of the game rather than people just wanting to wring every cent they can out of the game.
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Post by tstorm823 » 6 months ago

JWK wrote:
6 months ago
If they weren't doing this just as a huge money grab with no concern for the format, they could have designed these cards as they did with the Ikoria/Godzilla cards and put the non-Walking Dead version in COMMANDER LEGENDS. Then these could serve as a cool preview/lead in to some of the CL cards.

But that would require a) planning, and b) that the decisions be made by people who care about the health of the game rather than people just wanting to wring every cent they can out of the game.
What if they did literally that and just aren't spoiling those cards yet?
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Post by JWK » 6 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
6 months ago
JWK wrote:
6 months ago
If they weren't doing this just as a huge money grab with no concern for the format, they could have designed these cards as they did with the Ikoria/Godzilla cards and put the non-Walking Dead version in COMMANDER LEGENDS. Then these could serve as a cool preview/lead in to some of the CL cards.

But that would require a) planning, and b) that the decisions be made by people who care about the health of the game rather than people just wanting to wring every cent they can out of the game.
What if they did literally that and just aren't spoiling those cards yet?
Then a lot of people - me included - would owe Wizards a huge apology. And I would give it gladly.

Anyone want to lay odds on them earning that apology?
I have 68 active EDH decks, with more in progress. I don't consider this a problem. Do you?
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Post by pokken » 6 months ago

If functionally identical cards don't appear in a set ASAP I think it's a huge mistake.

I also do not like any of the crossover stuff, but at least it wasn't legal :)

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Post by BeneTleilax » 6 months ago

The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.

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Post by Legend » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
A bunch of internet crybabies =/= 90%. The RC is just tired of their negativity. Thank God this time they have the sense (this time) to not give in to the the vocal minority. Printing the cards was a tacky move, but there's no reason to ban them.
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Post by Mookie » 6 months ago

Yeah, I'm going to agree with the RC on this. I'm certainly not a fan of the WD cards - both from a flavor and availability perspective - but I believe the banlist should be built from a gameplay perspective. If the cards were particularly oppressive or overpowered, I could see a case... but the cards in question seem to be reasonably balanced.

As for myself, I'm currently throwing them in the same mental bucket as the silver-bordered legends, whom I would generally be fine with someone running (assuming they're not doing anything abusive). Alternatively, treat them as alters of cards that haven't actually been printed yet. If WotC starts printing ludicrously overpowered nonsense through Secret Lair, I'll give this another thought... but hopefully the massive community backlash will mean this doesn't happen again.

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Post by ZenN » 6 months ago

I'd love to see these banned before they go up for sale. It would drastically impact the sales of this product and its the only real way to make WotC not want to do this again.

Unfortunately, even with the huge backlash, many people don't have the self control to vote with their wallets. Making these cards useless to a large number of potential buyers would help with that.

The cards are mechanically fine, but they shouldn't exist in any play legal fashion. If these were silver bordered I wouldn't care. If they were done the way the Godzilla cards were done I would also not care. But this just disappoints me and the precedent leaves me legitimately more disillusioned about the future of this game under the current management.

I agree with the people saying that bans should only happen based on gameplay reasons. There's an argument to be made that the severe lack of availability this will represent IS a gameplay reason. Though really, I'd be fine if they announced a ban before they go on sale, and then after they're done being sold they unbanned them. I just want this product to fail. :P
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Post by tstorm823 » 6 months ago

ZenN wrote:
6 months ago
I'd love to see these banned before they go up for sale. It would drastically impact the sales of this product and its the only real way to make WotC not want to do this again.
It's a limited run. They will sell every copy even if they're banned in every format. You can't impact the sales.
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Post by RxPhantom » 6 months ago

tstorm823 wrote:
6 months ago
ZenN wrote:
6 months ago
I'd love to see these banned before they go up for sale. It would drastically impact the sales of this product and its the only real way to make WotC not want to do this again.
It's a limited run. They will sell every copy even if they're banned in every format. You can't impact the sales.
I feel like you're being intentionally obtuse here, which is unusual for you. Of course they can impact sales. They want to sell as many as possible to make as much money as possible. The RC could torpedo any sales goals WotC has with this product. Using an extreme example, what if they only sold ten? Ten units. Would the whole undertaking been worth it? Securing the license, designing the cards, commissioning the artwork, etc. Would it be worth it for ten units? It all has a cost.

I'm torn on a ban. On one hand, I think banning them is an extreme overreaction. On the other, Wizards needs to get the message that this kind of crap won't be tolerated by the community. Only time will tell, I suppose, if the community will actually send said message.
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Post by onering » 6 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
6 months ago
tstorm823 wrote:
6 months ago
ZenN wrote:
6 months ago
I'd love to see these banned before they go up for sale. It would drastically impact the sales of this product and its the only real way to make WotC not want to do this again.
It's a limited run. They will sell every copy even if they're banned in every format. You can't impact the sales.
I feel like you're being intentionally obtuse here, which is unusual for you. Of course they can impact sales. They want to sell as many as possible to make as much money as possible. The RC could torpedo any sales goals WotC has with this product. Using an extreme example, what if they only sold ten? Ten units. Would the whole undertaking been worth it? Securing the license, designing the cards, commissioning the artwork, etc. Would it be worth it for ten units? It all has a cost.

I'm torn on a ban. On one hand, I think banning them is an extreme overreaction. On the other, Wizards needs to get the message that this kind of crap won't be tolerated by the community. Only time will tell, I suppose, if the community will actually send said message.
Its possible it would impact sales in extreme cases, but it didn't impact sales of the silver bordered ones. Secret Lairs tend to sell out, which indicates that more people want to buy the product than can be served by the amount of product available. This leaves room for a banning to impact demand without impacting sales, because it can turn off X customers from buying the product before the product doesn't sell out, where X is the number of customers interested in buying the product minus the amount of product available. A banning will only impact sales if it decreases demand for the product below the supply of the product, and there's reason to believe that there's enough excess demand beyond supply that a banning won't depress demand enough to actually impact sales. That's not a given though, and if sales suffered from a ban it wouldn't surprise me, I just think its a bit more likely it would still sell out due to demand from TWD fans that just want the collectibles, kitchen table casual players, and people whose metas would house rule them in.

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Post by Yatsufusa » 6 months ago

I feel the real mechanical curveball is that these are essentially their own cards and it's hidden very well because of three factors

1) These are new cards, and there's nothing functionally similar to compare them to.
2) The Reserved List not allowing functional reprints making reverse comparison a seldom-thought process.
3) Everyone complaining about how this is handled (print-wise) is actually right because that affects the first two factors, but too much noise/focus on it is drowning out on the explanation process.

These cards are essentially the "Reserved List" versions of their own cards. Yes, they cited they can functionally reprint, but that has rules implications, you can now run 2 copies in the format, card names are different and so on. The Reserved List never had such a problem because they sealed the entire thing, and they thought it was a good idea to undo only one half of it. When they do the functional reprint in the future, it's like printing Twistertime today.

They're like P3K cards, except their direct reprintability is closer to the Reserved List than to P3K. We've seen the impact of direct reprints (Imperial Recruiter) and the lack of it even with functional reprints (Three Visits).

That's the most defining aspect, they will always be functionally they're their own card (with near Reserved List chances of a direct reprint), regardless of how many other functional reprints there are. Imagine if they did LotR and The One Ring is a functional Sol Ring, the uproar will be insane, but the clarity is there, while these cards are "new" functionally so it's a lot easier to hide. Or just imagine these 5 cards are functional reprints of the 2011 face-Commanders, but now you can play 2.

My conclusion? We don't need to ban these cards, but we need a rule for cards like these (collaborations in limited-print-runs) that restricts them functionally. Let's say they functionally print a Negan as Marchesa in the future, you can either play Marchesa or Negan in your 100, but not both. We have to manually bind the cards to their in-universe equivalent the same way the Godzilla series did by themselves, because WotC themselves can't be bothered to.

I know the RC dislikes multiple lists, but I feel these must be defined clearly otherwise it'll affect all functional reprints within MTG itself, which I wouldn't think is fair.

Funny enough, there isn't anything for the RC to bind to at the moment, but I feel like it's a good pre-emptive lock in case WotC thinks it's a good idea to functionally print a second copy of our favorite borderline-broken cards (ring, crypt, rift, craterhoof?) in the name of collaborations.

Also, I feel like this is arguably the best way for the RC to not spit right in WotC's face (despite a vocal call for that), but still send the message through. Sure, WotC can passive-aggressively react to that by not even functionally reprinting these (Zilthora, Strength Incarnate still waiting it out) and print even more pseudo-reserved-list cards instead, but if they really want to sink their cruise ship with our raft, it's their prerogative.
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Post by Peterhausenn » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
the rules committee are bought and paid for by wizards now (and have been for some time). any rule changes wizards wants or any pushed cards they print the rc capitulates to. ive played edh for well over a decade now and this format looks nothing like what it was. a lot of the defining characteristics of the format have been removed and the rc has given a thumbs up each time to their removal. this will be more of the same. the rc no longer cares for the health of the format, just their own personal agendas and protecting wizards cash cow.

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Post by Hermes_ » 6 months ago

Peterhausenn wrote:
6 months ago
BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
the rules committee are bought and paid for by wizards now (and have been for some time).
Proof please, all we know is that Sheldon worked for as a contracted worker last year I think it was during his treatment at the time, and Scott works for them directly
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Post by cryogen » 6 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
6 months ago
The RC has just SILENCED all criticism of this on their Discord. If they refuse to listen to 90% of their playerbase, we will know who they REALLY care about.
As a mod on their server and one that was there when this took place, it is a gross misrepresentation of what happened. Membership more than tripled in the last 24 hours, and the channel was so difficult to read, let alone moderate, that we put a slowdown on it. Even with that, it was still difficult to moderate. Then some people started getting heated and ignored multiple requests from myself and other mods. So we decided to lock the channel for 6 hours to let people cool off. Then we silenced the discussion on TWD on the other channels for the same duration because the conversation would just spill over this defeating the purpose. At no point were we silencing criticism or ignoring the players.
Peterhausenn wrote:
6 months ago
the rules committee are bought and paid for by wizards now (and have been for some time). any rule changes wizards wants or any pushed cards they print the rc capitulates to. ive played edh for well over a decade now and this format looks nothing like what it was. a lot of the defining characteristics of the format have been removed and the rc has given a thumbs up each time to their removal. this will be more of the same. the rc no longer cares for the health of the format, just their own personal agendas and protecting wizards cash cow.
This iz just plain wrong. I'm not going to dissect this entire post because it's almost completely conspiracy theory stuff, but feel free to cite concrete examples.

FWIW, I've also been playing for a decade and every rules change I have seen has come from the RC, and only one of those rules makes the format any different than it was (removing the mana generation rule). What else has changed the format so drastically that it looks nothing like it did 10 years ago?
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Post by tstorm823 » 6 months ago

RxPhantom wrote:
6 months ago
They want to sell as many as possible to make as much money as possible.
Well, no, they don't, that's kind of why people are upset. They aren't try to sell as many of these as possible, they're trying to sell a low number at high margin. When Wizards makes a product that the entire point is to be fancy and exclusive, a boycott from the regular folk doesn't mean anything. I've basically been boycotting Mercedes Benz my whole life, but they do just fine.

Like, they aren't going to sell just 10. That's not going to happen. You can get the vast majority of players to boycott this product, and it would cause no functional difference because the vast majority of players weren't going to buy any specific secret lair in the first place. The people who will buy this will buy this, and personally I'm fine with that. If you want to hit Wizard's bottom line though, you'd have to get people to stop buying the products that they actually buy.
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Post by Peterhausenn » 6 months ago

cryogen wrote:
6 months ago
Peterhausenn wrote:
6 months ago
the rules committee are bought and paid for by wizards now (and have been for some time). any rule changes wizards wants or any pushed cards they print the rc capitulates to. ive played edh for well over a decade now and this format looks nothing like what it was. a lot of the defining characteristics of the format have been removed and the rc has given a thumbs up each time to their removal. this will be more of the same. the rc no longer cares for the health of the format, just their own personal agendas and protecting wizards cash cow.
This iz just plain wrong. I'm not going to dissect this entire post because it's almost completely conspiracy theory stuff, but feel free to cite concrete examples.

FWIW, I've also been playing for a decade and every rules change I have seen has come from the RC, and only one of those rules makes the format any different than it was (removing the mana generation rule). What else has changed the format so drastically that it looks nothing like it did 10 years ago?
the legend rule, the color identity rule, using planeswalkers as a commander, having more than one commander, having more than 100 cards in your deck, the tuck rule, and as you mentioned the mana generation rule. these were all basic pillars of the format that have been changed or removed over the past few years. people complain about power creep in cards all the time but if something like the color identity rule was as it used to be golos would be an afterthought of a card. rule changes have harmed this format more than power creep has.
Hermes_ wrote:
6 months ago
Proof please, all we know is that Sheldon worked for as a contracted worker last year I think it was during his treatment at the time, and Scott works for them directly
you just mentioned the proof. and lets be honest, the only reason why the rules committee is still around is wizards fears the backlash of removing them from the player base. edh was a home grown format for the longest time and an unofficial one at that. once it became commander wizards took control of it which was their right since its their intellectual property. the rules committee were once stewards of the format guiding and protecting it. now they just go along with whatever their told.

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