Aminatou, the Fateshifter - The 8-year-old Planeswalker

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tstorm823
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Post by tstorm823 » 4 years ago

Thanks for the extra detailed analysis. That was an excellent read.

Not to be pushy, but like, I really do think Elspeth Conquers Death has a ton of genuinely oppressive play patterns with specifically your build of Aminatou.

The first chapter is going to be the same power pretty much regardless of the build. It's exiling removal that you can trigger multiple times with your commander. Nothing to scoff at, and tutorable with Academy Rector. And getting to trigger the second chapter every turn is a significant perpetual tax on your opponents, also very nice. Looking just at those effects, I would agree it doesn't seem like enough, and frankly I'm trying to sell it here because this part is basically the best I could do with it in the decks I play.

But you can use single triggers of the second and third chapters to much greater effect than any of the decks I play because in addition to flickering it, you're also playing a combo reanimator deck. A 2 mana tax around turn 6 is nice to slow down opponents when thinking of the tax like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but think of it also like 1 turn of Defense Grid for your combo deck. The second turn of Elspeth Conquers Death, your opponents aren't going to be able to stop you from doing whatever you want unless they leave up a pile of mana. If everyone taps out or mostly taps out, which they may be inclined to do right after the biggest threat gets exiled, you basically have Teferi, Time Raveler's static ability active for you.

But my favorite part is chapter 3: It reanimates a creature or planeswalker. You play combos off of Entomb, Buried Alive, and Intuition. You can cast those spells while your opponents are taxed on their answers. Then it gives planeswalkers an additional loyalty. So like, you have a section of your win conditions that talks about getting a 5th loyalty on Tezzeret the Seeker. You can play Entomb fetching out Tezz while your opponents are all still taxed, and then bring him back with 5 loyalty and all of your mana still untapped on your main phase. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just in theory, that seems like a grossly effective play.
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

tstorm823 wrote:
4 years ago
Thanks for the extra detailed analysis. That was an excellent read.

Not to be pushy, but like, I really do think Elspeth Conquers Death has a ton of genuinely oppressive play patterns with specifically your build of Aminatou.

The first chapter is going to be the same power pretty much regardless of the build. It's exiling removal that you can trigger multiple times with your commander. Nothing to scoff at, and tutorable with Academy Rector. And getting to trigger the second chapter every turn is a significant perpetual tax on your opponents, also very nice. Looking just at those effects, I would agree it doesn't seem like enough, and frankly I'm trying to sell it here because this part is basically the best I could do with it in the decks I play.

But you can use single triggers of the second and third chapters to much greater effect than any of the decks I play because in addition to flickering it, you're also playing a combo reanimator deck. A 2 mana tax around turn 6 is nice to slow down opponents when thinking of the tax like Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, but think of it also like 1 turn of Defense Grid for your combo deck. The second turn of Elspeth Conquers Death, your opponents aren't going to be able to stop you from doing whatever you want unless they leave up a pile of mana. If everyone taps out or mostly taps out, which they may be inclined to do right after the biggest threat gets exiled, you basically have Teferi, Time Raveler's static ability active for you.

But my favorite part is chapter 3: It reanimates a creature or planeswalker. You play combos off of Entomb, Buried Alive, and Intuition. You can cast those spells while your opponents are taxed on their answers. Then it gives planeswalkers an additional loyalty. So like, you have a section of your win conditions that talks about getting a 5th loyalty on Tezzeret the Seeker. You can play Entomb fetching out Tezz while your opponents are all still taxed, and then bring him back with 5 loyalty and all of your mana still untapped on your main phase. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just in theory, that seems like a grossly effective play.
I guess the biggest thing is that Sagas are very comparable to Planeswalkers. They both have multiple abilities, and even the last abilities, 3rd Sagas or "ultimate's/emblems" require some amount of turns to be in play.
Planeswalkers have the advantage of selecting between various abilities, while Sagas are sequential only. Sagas on the other hand cannot be harmed by creatures, so are the safer option in general.
So here I'm a bit split between options, especially at 5 mana and also given that I have planeswalker support cards in Oath of Gideon, The Chain Veil, Oath of Teferi, Deepglow Skate.
Even though the proliferate cards in Grateful Apparition, Thrummingbird, Flux Channeler help towards getting planeswalker towards their more powerful abilities, with Sagas they activate each ability as they tick up, so you can think of them as the The Chain Veil or Oath of Teferi for these instead.
I'm not positive about Deepglow Skate and Sagas, but I think if you get a number that's greater than the final Saga it won't actually trigger it. So you can only really do it if it's on the 1st Saga and that'll move it onto the 2nd Saga. If it's on the 2nd Saga (2 counters) then 4 lore counters is going to miss most of them that only have 3 Sagas.

Elspeth Conquers Death has removal, taxing, reanimation (to battlefield).
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage has removal (sort of), draw, reanimation (to hand).
Liliana Vess has discard, tutoring, reanimation (to battlefield).

I can't exactly compare them directly, but I'm just pointing out that there are options in that 5 mana slot, and so it is a case of balancing it all up.
I feel like this is where you really need to decide how you want to best move forward, slightly more enchantment support or stay within the lane of planeswalkers?
The difference between an emblem and a 3rd Saga going off is orders of magnitude, but it's also a much less risky play to get a 3rd Saga.

And although you mentioned Academy Rector, there is Arena Rector that could easily get a Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Liliana Vess or whatever as well in that slot.

There is the aspect that you can do an automatic win off the 3rd Saga bringing Tezzeret the Seeker into play on 5 loyalty as you mentioned. And this does happen a lot that Tezzeret the Seeker is removed/discarded/milled. So definitely a backup is nice. Just simply casting Tezzeret the Seeker onto the board, and up ticking him is a great way to preempt the 3rd Saga going off, as it means that your opponents have to remove the Saga otherwise it's pointless getting Tezz off the board.
But it is also a very telegraphed move. Like oh in 3 turns I'm going for win..nothing to see here.

I feel like it's super close, but I'd just need to alter the build somewhat.
Rather than Planeswalkers and it's support, I would have enchantments and some support.
Elspeth Conquers Death, The Eldest Reborn, Fall of the Thran, Phyrexian Scriptures, Medomai's Prophecy, Birth of Meletis.

Remove planeswalker support on favour of Replenish, Dance of the Manse, Starfield of Nyx, Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Auramancer.

Is this configuration you have to worry a lot less about protection (planeswalkers) so this in turn frees up alternative slots as well.

You can't really say one is better than the other, they are just different under different circumstances as well.
You can get great recursive value with Mystic Sanctuary and Replenish. Imagine having several Sagas ticking over all at the same time, so you just use Aminatou [-1] on Mystic Sanctuary to top the Replenish back and just do it all again.

And Elspeth Conquers Death and The Eldest Reborn can always be used with Animatou dying (send her to graveyard), so you can basically leave her unprotected when the 3rd Saga is about to go off.

It's definitely on my list of cards to try. And honestly I been thinking about cutting a lot of the reanimation cards, and it might be that Elspeth Conquers Death slides in as one of the alternative cards. I just need to think on the build more :)

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Post by vandertroll » 4 years ago

Damn you [mention]darrenhabib[/mention] with all those different takes on Aminatou! What am I going to build now?! :D
If I wanted to make a more "blink for value" oriented deck, how many slots for ghostly flicker effects would you suggest to reserve?
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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

vandertroll wrote:
4 years ago
Damn you darrenhabib with all those different takes on Aminatou! What am I going to build now?! :D
If I wanted to make a more "blink for value" oriented deck, how many slots for ghostly flicker effects would you suggest to reserve?
Definitely a tough question. I mean if you have at least one creature drawn that has an ETB that you can cast and are happy with triggering every turn, then the answer really is their is no limit.
However that does mean that your ETB creature count has to be a certain threshold more importantly. For example if you have 10 ETB creatures in your deck, then you have a 70% chance of drawing one by your 3rd turn. This is fine but you still have a 30% chance of not having one, so that is kind of like every 3rd game you play you might have multiple blink cards in your hand with no target.
If your ETB creature count is 20, then you'll have a 90% chance by your 3rd turn, and now you can be confidant that you can target with your blink cards at least most games.

But it's also important that you are just not spinning your wheels. For example casting Cloudshift on Spellseeker just to get Momentary Blink is fine. It means that you get an extra blink on something, but the process costs you 7 all up, which probably a couple of turns worth.
Casting Cloudshift on a Baleful Strix is nothing more than cycling a card. Not really inspiring either.

This is why I would really look for cards that can give you multiple uses.
Instants in Ghostway and Eerie Interlude.
Onboard with Soulherder, Brago, King Eternal, Thassa, Deep-Dwelling.

Then cards I like a little less because the require mana to activate; Mistmeadow Witch, Eldrazi Displacer, Deadeye Navigator. The stock of how playable these go up with comboing them with other creatures.
For example you can get infinite mana with Peregrine Drake/Palinchron/Great Whale and Eldrazi Displacer or Deadeye Navigator.

Once you start getting into the one-and-done range of cards you need to be careful. You can play Ghostly Flicker and Ephemerate comfortably as at least you can get several targets out of them.
A card I have been impressed with in other builds is Release to the Wind. The fact that you can keep it exiled until you're ready to expose it again really is an advantage, especially if you use it on a planeswalker.

I would start with the cards suggested above, and then depending exactly on specifically what types of advantages you want to get out of the creatures, you can up your blink count more.
Maybe you have a build where you really want as many lands in play as it's mana intensive.
Casting Teferi's Time Twist on a Peregrine Drake nets you 3 mana. But you wouldn't want this interaction in a deck that has a lower mana curve, because you just run the risk of flooding with mana, and not actually anything to do with the mana.
Or for additional mana Teferi's Time Twist could be used on Kor Cartographer, Solemn Simulacrum, Boreas Charger, Knight of the White Orchid as a pseudo Rampant Growth.
If you notice that my deck doesn't have any land ramp, I've specifically avoided the search library onto battlefield cards, simply because the deck is built to work around just casting specifically combo cards at certain stages, and doesn't look to go over-the-top with casting multiple spells a turn.

It's all quite hard to quantify, but find out what type of ETB's you are wanting, and how these might help the rest of what you want to be able to do, and then access blink quantities. Post your selection when you get time and we can see if we can figure how if adding additional blink cards would help or hinder long term.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

I've decided to take out the Reanimation package altogether and literally put back in a lot of cards that I've been replacing over the last couple of months for further additions.
I just feel focusing on particular elements is better rather than trying to impress the range of interactions that is possible within an Aminatou build.

Also I've been playing more competitively lately, so putting in some hosers with Ashiok, Dream Render and Narset, Parter of Veils, and upping the speed and consistency with a few more spikey cards like Imperial Seal and Tainted Pact.
If you can't afford Imperial Seal (who can?) then Scheming Symmetry is fine replacement.

I also got rid of some of the proliferate creatures in Grateful Apparition and Thrummingbird as they under-performed for the task I was trying them for. Oh well at least I tested them thoroughly, which is part of the reason of primers is to try stuff for you and report on how they do.

On that note I am going to try Elspeth Conquers Death (still need to get), as it does seem like some major payoff, and in more cEDH environments spells costing 2 is the real deal.


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Post by Wairwulf » 4 years ago

I have been following this thread since it came out back in mtgsalvation and built mine so similarly to your final version here. I was really sad when you merged your reanimation and superfriends versions. So I think it was the right decision to remove that package again.

Although I'm not sure about some decisions like, Flux Channeler, Brago, King Eternal, Cavalier of Dawn and Venser, the Sojourner. For me, Flux Channeler is not that necessary. (Maybe to give Tezzeret the Seeker another counter but w/e) Brago, King Eternal is slow and Venser, the Sojourner just does not fit to the deck because it returns the card at the end of the turn. And Cavalier of Dawn does not make me feel like it is close to Sun Titan.

I think you still need to create colored mana as well. So I would put an Arcane Signet back to it. 4 artifact ramp and 33 land may not be enough.
You may put an alternate to Oath of Teferi, like Corpse Knight or Altar of the Brood. So, Felidar Guardian-Aminatou, the Fateshifter combo won't die if something happens to Oath of Teferi. They can be tutored by Recruiter of the Guard, Enlightened Tutor etc.

Teferi's Protection is a solid option to play in this version. Bitterblossom as well.

As the deck is a superfriends deck once more, I think Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana Vess and/or Elspeth, Sun's Champion may find a place in it again.

I think Peregrine Drake is better than Parallax Tide in most cases, and even Peregrine Drake is not good enough for this deck. Neither the Parallax Tide.

Having Stax walkers is really good. (I even put the Japanese versions of Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render) If you are playing more competitive, you may consider Dovin, Hand of Control, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe or even Mystic Remora.

You may add Rings of Brighthearth as it is only 1 card to add but it will create another combo.

For more cEDH options, you need answers as well. Thoughtseize, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep etc.

Anyway, I would like to thank you for this deck and the work you put into it. I have been playing it more than a year right now and Im really happy with it. (It took some time to put all the cards together :) )

P.S. I hope they won't ban Flash and ban the Protean Hulk again instead as before.

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

Wairwulf wrote:
4 years ago
I have been following this thread since it came out back in mtgsalvation and built mine so similarly to your final version here. I was really sad when you merged your reanimation and superfriends versions. So I think it was the right decision to remove that package again.

Although I'm not sure about some decisions like, Flux Channeler, Brago, King Eternal, Cavalier of Dawn and Venser, the Sojourner. For me, Flux Channeler is not that necessary. (Maybe to give Tezzeret the Seeker another counter but w/e) Brago, King Eternal is slow and Venser, the Sojourner just does not fit to the deck because it returns the card at the end of the turn. And Cavalier of Dawn does not make me feel like it is close to Sun Titan.
I held out for as long as possible, but I just realized that I was cutting basically staples.

I think you still need to create colored mana as well. So I would put an Arcane Signet back to it. 4 artifact ramp and 33 land may not be enough.

You may put an alternate to Oath of Teferi, like Corpse Knight or Altar of the Brood. So, Felidar Guardian-Aminatou, the Fateshifter combo won't die if something happens to Oath of Teferi. They can be tutored by Recruiter of the Guard, Enlightened Tutor etc.

Teferi's Protection is a solid option to play in this version. Bitterblossom as well.

As the deck is a superfriends deck once more, I think Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana Vess and/or Elspeth, Sun's Champion may find a place in it again.

I think Peregrine Drake is better than Parallax Tide in most cases, and even Peregrine Drake is not good enough for this deck. Neither the Parallax Tide.

Having Stax walkers is really good. (I even put the Japanese versions of Narset, Parter of Veils and Ashiok, Dream Render) If you are playing more competitive, you may consider Dovin, Hand of Control, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe or even Mystic Remora.

You may add Rings of Brighthearth as it is only 1 card to add but it will create another combo.

For more cEDH options, you need answers as well. Thoughtseize, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep etc.

Anyway, I would like to thank you for this deck and the work you put into it. I have been playing it more than a year right now and Im really happy with it. (It took some time to put all the cards together :) )

P.S. I hope they won't ban Flash and ban the Protean Hulk again instead as before.
I will say that my list is as much about showing cards and interactions, rather than purely being the "best deck possible". This is why it's not a cEDH list. Like it's competitive but it's not deigned to be as effective as possible given how other decks are built.
This means that rather than playing a lot of artifact mana, and disruption, I've gone with a deck list that shows off what is capable with Aminatou, particularly with combos.

So that does mean slots that you might play things like Arcane Signet, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, to name a few, have gone by the way side to include particular combinations.
Same with counterspells or cheap removal, the deck is very light on interactions here, and the more competitive an environment the more you'll want these.
So I am absolutely conceding that this list is not the most efficient build, but really more of a show case. I think I should add a statement into the introduction eluding to this fact.
A better version would have Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Mystic Remora for sure.

Venser, the Sojourner even though it's not part of some combos, it is a combo card. Deepglow Skate and the emblem is a win condition, and it does allow you to go infinite with the Mystic Sanctuary and extra turn card(s). Plus there are a lot of ETB effects in the deck, so honestly I'm really happy with it's inclusion.

Cavalier of Dawn is another solid body, and honestly it's surprising how often you just need one good blocker to get traction with playing out planeswalkers. Plus the deck is light on removal, so it's only really the triple white which can be awkward at times, rather than it costing 5 mana itself.

Flux Channeler is part of the Mystic Sanctuary and extra turn card(s) combo, which I have been having fun with. Let's just say it's a pet new interaction of mine, so agree it not the best of cards in the deck. Admittedly it would be much better in a more streamlined build that played cantrip cards (Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, etc) and zero cost artifact mana. That way you can setup Tezzeret the Seeker for 5 loyalty more easily.

I've been really adverse against playing Altar of the Brood as it does nothing on it's own. I've just been really stubborn about that, I do like cards to have matrix of interactions to warrant slots.
Corpse Knight is a 2/2 body on the other hand, so at least it has some blocking potential.
But there are a lot more combos based around infinite Aminatou flickers, as opposed to just creature ETB's so I think technically Altar of the Brood is still the better option.
But it's not even a given, Eldrazi Titan's can ruin your fun, and these days people can even Flash in a Thassa's Oracle if you mill their library :P Now if Altar milled you own library then it would be a snap include.

I did use Parallax Tide on the mana base of the player who was setting up for a win in a super competitive game, where they were going to combo off because they had tutored sequentially. So the other two players allowed me to cast/keep Aminatou basically for the sole purpose of keeping that player off their lands. So I do think this is better than Peregrine Drake, unless you have some direct combos with the Drake itself.

I tried Bitterblossom for a time, but I just found it too slow. Not doing anything the turn it comes into play just feels bad in my opinion.

I've kept planeswalker numbers to a sort of limit, so it is hard to fit in extras like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Liliana Vess, Elspeth, Sun's Champion as you do have to find your spots. Simple the way I evaluate a lot of them is do the have a game ending emblem? That just seems to be the tipping point for me personally.
I will say that Jace, Architect of Thought is always that borderline include for me, and then Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Dovin, Hand of Control does look really good in a Stax build and combining that with Elspeth Conquers Death could be a shut-out.

Just on a side note, I will say that the addition of Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation/Tainted Pact has meant that I've been more lazy with the setups, as it's just easier to tutor for these than it is setting up other combos. This actually is really unfortunate as it leads into linear play, and an inefficiency with having other combos in the deck.
But it's super hard to get away from as Thassa's Oracle is just such a good ETB creature for the deck with the "scry" alone as an early play.

I've been playing cEDH with my Thrasios/Tymna Flash+Hulk deck lately and I personally think that some changes are going to have to be made (bannings) as Thassa's Oracle has just made interacting with wins too difficult. I could see a Flash ban occurring, but I totally agree it's the Protean Hulk that is the troublesome part as Academy Rector still requires work.

Thanks for the compliment and I'm glad you've managed to use this primer as a resource for your own deck making :)

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Post by MitoZ » 4 years ago

darrenhabib , have you old "reanimate" decklist (with "razaketh pack" and other)? could you share it?

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Post by darrenhabib » 4 years ago

MitoZ wrote:
4 years ago
darrenhabib , have you old "reanimate" decklist (with "razaketh pack" and other)? could you share it?
The following cards make up the "reanimation package". As far as what to cut however, that is a bit more subjective given how many new cards have influenced the deck design. There in lied the problem in that it literally wasn't clear cut what I was to give up on?
In order to play a 11 cards strategy you have to give up on something right? Basically the recommendation of cards to cut is a good portion of the Superfriends and the infinite extra turn combo.


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Post by Jonas Ukulore » 3 years ago

And Flash is gone. That's just 4 cards that needs to change? Or is there any merit in running both rectors (and Omniscience?) without it?
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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Jonas Ukulore wrote:
3 years ago
And Flash is gone. That's just 4 cards that needs to change? Or is there any merit in running both rectors (and Omniscience?) without it?
Wowzers! Well on the plus side, it makes it easy to try new cards :P
I don't have the heart to run them without Flash, even though they still have some merit.

Yorion, Sky Nomad is a card I've been running as a commander and absolutely insane in this deck as well.
You can check out my Yorion thread here.

Aminatou being able to blink it each turn means that you can get ETB out of all your nonland permanents and even reset Aminatou back to starting loyalty.

I explain interactions with Yorion, Sky Nomad in that commander thread of mine, but specifically you can use it with Felidar Guardian or Spark Double as a way to keep targeting Yorion so that you get the blink effects at the end of every players turn.
Insane value trust me!

On that note I think that Flickerwisp offers enough versatility to the overall deck, and is another Yorion, Sky Nomad blink enabler for each players turn.

Just some boring additions in Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study. I've always held back on including these, mainly because I've tried to keep slots for teaching readers interactions rather than simply including staples (as you learn nothing new).
But Aminatou can blink Mystic Remora once the cumulative upkeep gets high, so there is some synergy there.


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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Thought I'd do a bit of a review of Core 2021 and Jump Start for our favorite child planeswalker.

Mangara, the Diplomat although doesn't offer any ETB or combo potential, but is just a really solid card to give you card advantages. Not often is "planeswalker" written in cards for preventing attacking.
I've played with Kraum, Ludevic's Opus recently and the draw for each time a player casts their second spell triggers all the time. Easily at least two opponents each round will delpoy 2 spells. If they are not then they are probably getting too far behind, so its basically win-win no matter how you slice it.
This is why I'm actually feeling Mangara, the Diplomat a lot as a potential include. I'm also not unhappy about a 2/4 blocker.

Teferi, Master of Time is a new planeswalker and has interesting dynamics in multiplayer. In a 4 player game you can add 4 loyalty each turn round (if survives). My feeling is that the ultimate is pretty decent, but honestly not like amazing in this deck.
But I do have Teferi, Master of Time in mind for my Will & Rowen Kenrith deck, so he definitely has his place in certain builds.
If I was still running the reanimation package, then the discard element is actually quite good.

Teferi's Ageless Insight is a super powerful card, costing one less than Alhammarret's Archive.
With Aminatou [+1] drawing 2 cards it could be used. I feel like I'd want to dedicate more cards to draw however.
You'd want to have as many of the cantrip cards like Opt, Ponder, Preordain, etc.

Inniaz, the Gale Force is a really interesting option as it has a comparable ability to Aminatou [-6] fate-shifting some permanents in right direction. The neat thing is that you can Aminatou [-1] the card that you have given to opponent to get it back.
So there is a really fun build to be combined with these two imo, but with 3 flying attackers you really need to have some particular deck in mind.
I tried a build that had Grateful Apparition, Skyship Plunderer, Thrummingbird for the proliferate in the past, so you could build some smallball flyers. But honestly after these I'm not sure what other flyers give you advantages in an Aminatou build?
I looked up flyers with 3 or less cmc with ETB effects and this is the list I thought looked decent; Augury Owl, Cloud of Faeries, Faerie Seer, Flickerwisp, Kitesail Freebooter, Owl Familiar, Sage Owl, Siren Lookout, Spire Owl, Tome Raider, Vendilion Clique.
I mean they are fine, but not like massively inspirational.

There are a couple of bounce legendary creatures with Barrin, Tolarian Archmage and Niambi, Esteemed Speaker that you could use to get additional ETB from some of your creatures.
I've built a Niambi, Esteemed Speaker commander deck, so exploring her abilities to the fullest there.
Barrin, Tolarian Archmage suggests having more bounce abilities and currently this is not what the deck is doing.


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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

After thinking about Teferi, Master of Time more I realized that there are actually a few combos that can be integrated within the deck already.
Oath of Teferi allows two activates every players turn. If you do the math for a 4 player game, then you can in theory add 8 loyalty per turn cycle. With a starting loyalty of 3 that means that it'll be on 11 loyalty at the start of your turn. So you can [-10] to get the 2 additional turns.
Then within your additional turns you can add 5 more loyalty bringing it back up to 6. So by the time it comes back around to the 3rd player (labeled you as first player) then you can ultimate again. Add another 4 loyalty during your extra turns, and then it'll go back to the 4th player (6 loyalty).
You have your normal turn and up to 8. So by the 2nd players turn you can then ultimate again. So I believe you end up taking 2 additional turns a player earlier each turn cycle, which lets be honest going to win the game without having to actually go infinite.
You are also drawing (and discarding) 12 cards during each of these turn cycles, so you are going to draw additional action guaranteed.
You just need to cast any other planeswalker to get them to an ultimate.
But this all assumes that opponents are not successfully attacking Teferi, Master of Time to remove loyalty and that opponents can't deal with what you are doing during the turns they do get.

What if we use Aminatou to reset Teferi, Master of Time during that turn when the loyalty is 1?
So you activate Teferi, Master of Time [-10]. Then you use Aminatou [-1] to reset back to 3 loyalty. Then you can add 6 more loyalty during your 3 turns. Also remember you get to build up Aminatou or whatever other planeswalkers you have.
You pass the turn to the 2nd player and you can [-10] again during their turn, in fact you just do it in their upkeep.
Now this time around you don't get your normal turn to work with before passing to a player (only 2 extra turns). But you reset back to 3 and then add 4 loyalty, passing the turn to the 3rd player. On the 4th players turn you can [-10] again.
The best way to describe this is that you can basically get 5 turns for every opponents turn.

However there are some infinite's that I can think of as well.
If you copy Teferi, Master of Time with Spark Double and Oath of Teferi then you can build both of them up to the [-10] and between them both taking 2 extra turns, you'll get 4 extra turns, plus your own turn. During these 5 turns you can build up loyalty to ultimate again, giving you infinite turns.

Also with Deepglow Skate you can use Aminatou [-1] to blink it out to get Teferi, Master of Time up to a higher loyalty to start with.
So lets say you cast Teferi, Master of Time and then double the loyalty to start off with 6 instead. Now without Oath of Teferi you can only add 4 loyalty per turn cycle. If we get back around to your turn Teferi will have 10 loyalty. You can double with the Aminatou [-1] on Deepglow Skate bringing it to 20 loyalty. Now you ultimate [-10] for 2 extra turns.
During one of those extra turns you can Aminatou [+1] to make sure Aminatou always has loyalty to [-1] the Deepglow Skate.
This means that as long as you can survive a turn cycle with Teferi, Master of Time you can go infinite.

Another element that I didn't think about is that other blink effects that bring back stuff at "end of turn" like Yorion, Sky Nomad and Venser, the Sojourner allow you to still tick up loyalty during your turn as you can do it at instant speed before the turn is passed.

I haven't worked out the math with Oath of Gideon or The Chain Veil added to the mix as well.
I feel like Flux Channeler would also allow you to basically go infinite as well with Oath of Teferi.
Getting 2 extra turns, and casting say 2 spells each of those turns means adding another 4 loyalty which would certainly be enough to go infinite.
Karn's Bastion isn't in the deck, but could be an option if wanting to try and use Teferi, Master of Time to go infinite with Oath of Teferi.

With all the draw and discard you get its tempting to bring back some of the reanimation theme. But it would literally be the only discard outlet, so that would be a bit of a red herring.

I've decided that I just don't want to play the Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact as it becomes too much of a de facto way to win and I want to play this deck for other combos. What I found myself doing was tutoring for those combination of cards rather than trying to setup any of the other combos.
So if you want to play a deck that looks to compete and possible win more then sure keep in the combo, but to be honest I don't play this deck specifically for cEDH games, therefore the fun factor of Thassa + Consultation wore really thin quickly.
I'll leave in Tainted Pact and Thassa's Oracle for the mean time, but as I need to make more cuts I think I'll make them first to go?

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Post by Ardeyn » 3 years ago

So, do you have any News on the deck since adding Teferi, Master of Time and removing Consultation? I'm curious how the deck performs.

Do you have a reason for not including Gilded Drake? This seems so much like a perfect fit, being able to steal two creatures when first playing the drake with Aminatou on board.
Also, have you ever tried Teferi, Timebender in the list; with Aminatou and Deepglow Skate this would give you infinite turns. Finally, a way to put one of the PW Deck Walkers to good use. ;)

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Ardeyn wrote:
3 years ago
So, do you have any News on the deck since adding Teferi, Master of Time and removing Consultation? I'm curious how the deck performs.

Do you have a reason for not including Gilded Drake? This seems so much like a perfect fit, being able to steal two creatures when first playing the drake with Aminatou on board.
Also, have you ever tried Teferi, Timebender in the list; with Aminatou and Deepglow Skate this would give you infinite turns. Finally, a way to put one of the PW Deck Walkers to good use. ;)

Ardeyn
I've added Teferi, Master of Time to 3 decks (Aminatou, Will & Rowan Kenrith, Yorian) and I've actually never got to put it into play yet across all 3 decks.
And I've specifically been playing some games to try and get to cast it. Like literally thought "I'm going to play this deck now to see if I get to try Teferi, Master of Time", but the 99 card nature of commander just sometimes means you don't draw it or maybe get the opportunity even when you play a dozen games.
Once I get some play experiences with it I'll report on it :)

Removing the Consultation / Thassa has been good for my soul. As I said I just ended up spending too many game tutoring for the other half of the combo once I'd had drawn one, and this is not why I play this deck to begin with. I like to assemble unique combos and plays instead. Does that make it harder to win some games? Sure, but it make it more fun and challenging to piece together other win conditions instead.

I'm pretty sure I've talked about Teferi, Timebender in the past (maybe on MTGSalvation) and it's pretty close right to being good in the deck. It just needs the [+2] ability to more relevant and this is where if I had a build that played cards like Gilded Lotus for example then I could see making room for it.
Unfortunately the deck is very light on artifact mana.
But you could use it to untap The Chain Veil to get additional PW uses.
If you can get 4 x activation's of Teferi, Timebender in a turn that that is also infinite. So the sequence would be reset Teferi, Timebender to 5 loyalty with Aminatou [-1]. Then get Teferi up to 11 loyalty with 3 activation's using The Chain Veil. Then the 4th is used for the [-9].
You'll need 12 for activating The Chain Veil 3 times, which is not easiest right?
But remember you get additional Aminatou uses. You need to use alternative [+1] for each [-1] as not to let her die, so you'll get 2 x [-1] activation's in a turn, and we've already established that the first one is for resetting Teferi, Timebender.
So the other one could be used on say Mana Vault or Grim Monolith.
If you have Oath of Gideon then you only need 3 x activation's as Teferi would start on 6 loyalty.
You can always go down a loyalty on Aminatou each turn to get an additional [-1] activation, so this does allow you to potentially draw into other cards that help this plan.
Yorion, Sky Nomad would be one of the better cards to help this combo. It can reset Aminatou, Mana Vault (etc), Teferi, Timebender so that using The Chain Veil plan is actually quite feasible.
You can use 3 x Aminaou [-1] activation's in the turn as Yorion, Sky Nomad is going to reset her back up to 3 loyalty at end of turn.
So you can use 2 x Aminaou [-1] on a Mana Crypt, Sol Ring (for 6) or Mana Vault/Grim Monolith (for 9) which covers most of the cost easily. Remember Yorion, Sky Nomad will untap the Mana Vault/Grim Monolith at end of turn as well.
I guess now that I've typed that all out, I've basically convinced myself it is at least worth trying :)


On a separate note, Confounding Conundrum looks pretty tempting as a flicker effect for Animatou and a general hoser for slowing down decks in the format.
I will say that I do prefer playing ETB creatures rather than other card types, just because they can block, but this might be one of the exceptions to that rule.

Also Jace, Mirror Mage is interesting in that it is another 3 mana PW that does go well with Animatou. You can use the Scry to ship away anything that you put on top with Aminatou. Or you can make sure that the top card is low cost so that Jace, Mirror Mage will not die, most likely lands.
And of course if you use the kicker then you can use them with each other to make sure to put low cost (again likely lands) to get value and not die.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Lot's of quality goodies from Zendikar Rising for Aminatou!

Skyclave Apparition is a glorious removal card that can be Aminatou [-1] every turn to remove the biggest threat 4 cmc and under. It will give your opponents some creatures, but as long as you can establish a blocker, probably won't care much about them.

The spells and land cards depending on what you choose are super interesting with flicker effects.
You can play them as lands, and then use Aminatou [-1] on them and then they return to the battlefield as their front side.
Now if they are not a permanent (like an instant or sorcery) then they'll just got straight to the graveyard which is pretty terrible.
But if they are a creature then you can transform them at not paying their mana cost.
Having said this, Wizards were aware of this so didn't print anything particularly strong as far as creatures that can be lands.
Let's literally look at them in Esper colors; Skyclave Cleric, Glasspool Mimic, Umara Wizard, Blackbloom Rogue.
Glasspool Mimic is the one that offers the most potential. You can play it for a land earlier on, and then later in the game use Animatou [-1] on it and then copy a creature you control.
You can obviously just cast it and then use Animatou [-1] on it as a creature as well to upgrade it to another creature you have later on as well.
At 3 mana it's one of the cheaper clone effects.
Now Umara Wizard is just a vanilla creature, but you could use it in a similar manner to just get a 4/3 blocker out on the turn you play Aminatou to protect her.
But given that you go down a land (very unappealing) and the deck really wants as many basic land types for Land Tax and Mystic Sanctuary having more of these spells/lands does come at a cost to the deck, and we don't really want anymore tapped lands.

So the same goes for just slotting in say Emeria's Call, Sea Gate Restoration, Agadeem's Awakening into the deck, you need to weigh up the if you can really afford to replace existing lands.
There is an argument that with Snapcaster Mage in the deck that you could Animatou [-1] one of those lands to send it to the graveyard to have a target later on in the game, but that is such a niche situation that is unlikely to occur.

I already mentioned Confounding Conundrum and Jace, Mirror Mage in the above post, but I'm not finding room for these at this stage.
There are tons of two mana draw replacement effect permanents, but I really like to have them as creatures (with ETB) for the purposes of blocking and other creature synergy.
So although Confounding Conundrum is one of the best of the 2 mana permanent draw a card for commander, I still don't think it worth the slot instead of a creature.
Jace, Mirror Mage just seems a little too fragile for me at this point in time.

Master of Winds is a fine blocker with 1/4 stats flying and draws 2 cards each time it ETB. Not quite good enough however.

Trove Warden is an exciting card and it'll take me a bit longer to find its true worth in decks. But like Emeria Shepherd you can look to Aminatou [-1] to give you additional landfall triggers. The only part is that it has to die in order for you to get the cards, and the deck doesn't have a way to guarantee this at the moment.

Teferi, Timebender is just what I've added lately and you can read the post above for combos with it.

Lithoform Engine is packed full of abilities and the most obvious one for this deck is to copy activated ability of planeswalkers. However you'll notice that Rings of Brighthearth is not in the deck and that can offer multiple uses in a turn.
You can't copy the planeswalkers as well for the "Copy target permanent spell you control" for value either.
The decks instant and sorcery also wouldn't provide much value as often they are sweepers and counterspells. Sure there are some, but not many.
At this stage it seems more like a fun card rather than actually good for this deck. I would need to figure out if there are any infinite combs to be had, but with tapping it is not that likely.


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Post by pedrofausto » 3 years ago

I will definitely test Trove Warden with Parallax Tide. Good call.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

pedrofausto wrote:
3 years ago
I will definitely test Trove Warden with Parallax Tide. Good call.
Trove Warden can exile land cards from your graveyard which is a way to get land ramp which we know is hard to do outside of green.

The fact that Trove Warden needs to die makes permanents loops much harder to achieve however.

If you have an reanimation enchantment like Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Necromancy, then you can exile one of these and so when Trove Warden dies you can use the reanimation to put it back into play.
With Aminatou [-1] you can exile the Animate Dead so that the Trove Warden dies to get exiled cards, or you can exile the Trove Warden so that the Animate Dead goes to graveyard and you can exile that to setup bringing back into play.
But the restrictions of landfall itself makes it hard to get infinite loops.

I was thinking with 2 x copy creatures that cost 3 cmc or less you can loop them if the exile each other and you keep the Trove Warden in play to keep copying it.
The example is say you have Glasspool Mimic and Mirror Image and a fetchland.
With Glasspool Mimic as a copy of Trove Warden you play a fetchland and use the landfall trigger to exile Mirror Image from your graveyard.
You can then use the fetchland and use the landfall trigger to exile that same fetchland if you want.
Now if you have a sacrifice outlet you kill your Glasspool Mimic and both Mirror Image and the fetchland will come into play, and with Mirror Image becoming the Trove Warden you'll get a landfall trigger, which you use to exile the Glasspool Mimic.
Once again you can sacrifice the fetchland to exile itself. This is an infinite loop with a sacrifice outlet and the result is that you search for all the lands in your deck that fetchlands you have access to can get, as well as other ETB triggers you might put into your deck.
The original Trove Warden can also use the landfall triggers to store up a bunch of things from your graveyard to get value once you've finished with any loops.
Other copy cards under 3 cmc in Esper are Dance of Many and Phantasmal Image.

Emeria Shepherd can get some loops going with Trove Warden and a way to keep killing it. Because Trove Warden can exile a land, when it dies you can bring a Plains into play to trigger Emeria Shepherd to put the Trove Warden back into play.
It would need to be a fetchland that can search for a Plains as the target for Trove Warden to keep looping.

As I've pointed out actually killing Trove Warden is the sticking point for the idea of getting value from it when you want it in a consistent manner.
At the moment I only have Cavalier of Dawn that can destroy it on purpose.
I used to have Phyrexian Tower in the deck when I was running Academy Rector and Arena Rector with Flash.
I could imagine if you wanted to get better use out of Trove Warden then you could look for other ETB effects that kill it like Cavalier of Night, Noxious Gearhulk, Ravenous Chupacabra for example.

As you've pointed out with Parallax Tide you can look to just get major value. Imagine getting 5 landfall triggers and exiling 5 lands from your graveyard. Then if you got to copy the Trove Warden with Spark Double or Glasspool Mimic you can get another 5 landfall triggers when those lands come into play. You don't need infinite here, just overwhelm with value.

I have to say that Trove Warden obviously goes better with reanimation theme and I could see leaning back into Karmic Guide and even trying out Luminous Broodmoth.
With Aminatou you can [-1] the creature once it has a "flying counter" on it to remove it so that it can be return to play once dies again with Luminous Broodmoth.
I have a "Reanimation" section in the primer and I'll work on it to include some ideas I've floated around in this post.

I'm still trying to figure out if it's worth it for the main without some of the other enablers I've mentioned in this post?
But I could even see playing Glasspool Mimic as land (Glasspool Shore) to trigger Trove Warden and then Aminatou [-1] the Glasspool Shore to bring into play as Glasspool Mimic to copy the Trove Warden. This is just setting you up nicely for value town. Doesn't have to be loops or infinite's.
I'll give it a try at least for sure.

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

Alrund, God of the Cosmos can be cast as Hakka, Whispering Raven for 1u and then Amniatou [-1] to flip it over as Alrund, God of the Cosmos.
Casting it on Turn 2 and then Amniatou on Turn 3 means that you get Alrund straight away and that is really amazing value so early.
You'll probably have a near full grip of cards at that stage as well so he'll be something like a 6/6 which makes it a great blocker against your planeswalkers.
The ability to put the top cards in hand or bottom of library obviously works great with Amniatou [+1] ability as well.

I decided to take out Land Tax just because so many new lands are released and I wanted the Snow duels that have basic land types to help with triggering Mystic Sanctuary and Emeria Shepherd.

Of other cards in the new set;
Shepherd of the Cosmos is another type of Sun Titan. Foretell on Turn 2, Aminatou Turn 3 and then Turn 4 cast it for the foretell and use Aminatou [-1] on it for getting a fetchland back.

Kaya the Inexorable can target creatures to return to hand if dies, but I'm not that excited about recasting spells if can avoid that.
The emblem is very cool and would be pretty hard to beat. The fact that the emblem can just keep recasting her and then you use the [-3] to exile biggest threat each turn is very hard to grind through.

Niko Aris can target one of the ETB creatures to attack/bounce and replay for value. However not excited about this type of tempo play as mentioned with Kaya the Inexorable ability.
The 2 damage for each cards drawn can be 4 damage with Aminatou [+1]. Being able to destroy most creatures is pretty good on a 3 mana planeswalker.
The Shards tokens can be used for advantages and the scry can help with with Aminatou [+1].

Glorious Protector can be used to get value out of all your ETB creatures. However unlike Yorion, Sky Nomad can't target your planeswalkers if you were hoping to get them onto their starting loyalty if low.
The fact that it has flash is good to make opponents wary in future games to attack into a 3/4 flyer.

Firja's Retribution is a Saga that you could look to keep switching between making 4/4 angels and the "Destroy target creature" portions. It really is possible to just keep doing this and keeping opponents off their better creatures.


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Post by spooFPipe » 3 years ago

Yo! Just found this website from your link on MTG Salvation. Great primer! You clearly put a lot of work into this. I'll definitely be checking out your other primers. Thanks for sharing!

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Post by darrenhabib » 3 years ago

spooFPipe wrote:
3 years ago
Yo! Just found this website from your link on MTG Salvation. Great primer! You clearly put a lot of work into this. I'll definitely be checking out your other primers. Thanks for sharing!
Welcome to MTGNexus and thanks for the compliment.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

So I've got a variant of this deck based off your primer too.

Have you shelved it for a while? I was surprised that there wasn't any Strixhaven commentary from you as you are so prolific on the boards (although that is often creating or discussing new ideas).

I thought I'd seen a few tools that could potentially be replacements in Strixhaven, although with Modern Horizon spoilers there are quite a few cards there too that might make the cut

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Post by darrenhabib » 2 years ago

Arebennian wrote:
2 years ago
So I've got a variant of this deck based off your primer too.

Have you shelved it for a while? I was surprised that there wasn't any Strixhaven commentary from you as you are so prolific on the boards (although that is often creating or discussing new ideas).

I thought I'd seen a few tools that could potentially be replacements in Strixhaven, although with Modern Horizon spoilers there are quite a few cards there too that might make the cut
I do tend to get caught up with new decks and commanders when sets come out, so do get very distracted but I didn't feel there were any talking points of interest in Strixhaven for Aminatou.
Professor Onyx was the planeswalker and you could look for the Chain of Smog combo but honestly neither suit the deck play style in any way.
I'd say Selfless Glyphweaver // Deadly Vanity, Blot Out the Sky, Elite Spellbinder, Callous Bloodmage would be cards worth thinking about. Any cards that you liked?

MH2 looks like it has interesting cards however.
Out of Time doesn't trigger ETB if creatures come back because of phasing but this does maybe a better job of Parallax Wave as far as managing creatures onboard.
The thing is that it literally scales up with number of creatures, so if you blink it with Aminatou then it proceed to phase out all the creatures and get vanishing counters to cover as many turns as you need.

Esper Sentinel does an impression of Mystic Remora. There are currently no creature buffs in the deck.

Damn looks incredible.

Dakkon, Shadow Slayer is another 3 mana esper walker and thus obviously every ounce of me wants to find a fit for the deck.
The Surveil 2 can be combined with Aminatou to clear the top of your library. However this ability would be much better served with reanimation.
You could easily play on turn 4 and exile 2 creatures with Animatou so this could be used as the early control on creatures.
Putting an artifact from hand or graveyard doesn't fit with the deck really that much at all. Besides putting The Chain Veil into play.
I was thinking about artifacts that would go with Dakkon, Shadow Slayer and God-Pharaoh's Gift, The Cauldron of Eternity and Whip of Erebos seem like logical choices given the Surveil. Bolas's Citadel also could be a target.

Unmarked Grave and Persist represent non-legendary reanimation. Razaketh, the Foulblooded was always my go to target for Entomb so wouldn't work with these.

Master of Death is certainly of note. I've been impressed with Squee, Goblin Nabob in my decks that look at discard to draw advantages.
I think only Teferi, Master of Time does this sort of thing in the deck. However it does have an ETB ability and it is a 3/1 blocker that you can just keep casting out and it will prevent certain all out attacks from happening.

I can see doing a bit of a change up as I feel that Out of Time and Damn are so efficient that I can go a bit more creature light.
Couple this with Dakkon, Shadow Slayer and I'm getting reanimation vibes coming back.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Hi,

Sorry for the delayed reply.

Whenever I am thinking of this deck, I always think of what you said regarding 2mana CITP-draw-a-card creatures. Whilst there isn't one of these available in either Strixhaven (or MH2) (unless you count the skeleton for CMC2 that craws when it enters but can't block), I thought Callous Bloodmage might make my version simply for the utility. My creature base doesn't have quite as many creature tutors as yours done (READ: Budget).

What I did notice, and you point this out, is the reanimation angle that the new cards provide. Dakkon and Master of Death in particular seem savage in the roll of discard outlet and top of the library manipulation. Professor of Symbology is another shoutout from Strixhaven at the CMC 2 slot in this regard.

The repeatability of Master being a great blocker and Dakkon being repeatable removal really adds to their utility in this respect.

I also thought the sweepers were worth a shot too, I guess the issue is the loss of blink targets (and subsequently your draw and tutor engine) when you wipe the board.

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Post by Arebennian » 2 years ago

Oh Wow. It only just occurred to me that you can Snapcaster back, and Spellseeker, Damn!

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