[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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EonAon
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Post by EonAon » 3 months ago

I assume its a 4 off since you really want the engine to start early. Its cheap effective and if they somehow kill it you can just cast the next same turn or next turn. Its one of the few legendries that can get away with such quantities.

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Post by Simto » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Simto wrote:
3 months ago
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Check this video out. It's a pretty good watch and meta summary. I was intrigued on how little Tron is being played right now. The reviewer (correctly) notes that there really is no decks out there preying on Tron so its absence is a bit mysterious (and probably just temporary). Also of note UW strategies taking advantage of Urza's Saga. The T5feri +1 on Saga getting extra constructs is pretty gross.

The look on that dude's face makes me want to never click on it. So tired of Youtube stuff for reals.
Wow. Is this the kind of forum we have here? Arbitrarily dismissing someone based on you dont like the look of their face? It couldnt possibly be that he has an opinion that might be different than your. No, of course not.
I'm tired of "youtube persona people" talking and talking and talking, making sure the video is just over 10min to cash in the youtube money and "HEY GUYS DON'T FORGET TO CLICK LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE AND HIT UP MY PATREON AND GIVE ME MONEY HAHA OK GUYS!????" so yeah I'll be petty on this one. I don't care if I agree or disagree with his opinions, I'm just tired as %$#% when it comes to the whole youtube thing.

And for the record, I'm a casual nobody idiot, so what does it matter what my opinion is anyway? If anything, you mentioning him saying Tron being in a good spot because people aren't building so much for it is something I like because I like Tron. But whatever.

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Simto wrote:
3 months ago
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Simto wrote:
3 months ago


The look on that dude's face makes me want to never click on it. So tired of Youtube stuff for reals.
Wow. Is this the kind of forum we have here? Arbitrarily dismissing someone based on you dont like the look of their face? It couldnt possibly be that he has an opinion that might be different than your. No, of course not.
I'm tired of "youtube persona people" talking and talking and talking, making sure the video is just over 10min to cash in the youtube money and "HEY GUYS DON'T FORGET TO CLICK LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE AND HIT UP MY PATREON AND GIVE ME MONEY HAHA OK GUYS!????" so yeah I'll be petty on this one. I don't care if I agree or disagree with his opinions, I'm just tired as %$#% when it comes to the whole youtube thing.

And for the record, I'm a casual nobody idiot, so what does it matter what my opinion is anyway? If anything, you mentioning him saying Tron being in a good spot because people aren't building so much for it is something I like because I like Tron. But whatever.
I hear you but it was bad timing at that point in the discussion. I've already got one rage troll making little to no sense, then you pop in with I dont like his face....duh doy...

So if sharing and discussing MTG related video content, including opinions you do not agree with is fair game to blindly troll on, then I ask the moderator what in the %$#% is the purpose of this forum?
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Post by Simto » 3 months ago

Don't worry man, I'm not saying what people can or can't discuss. Like I said I'm a petty, angry and bitter idiot, I'll be the first to admit that, so don't take what I say serious. I didn't mean it as a troll or slight at you, I've just been ignoring youtube stuff for a while because of the persona people take in the videos. Can't stand it lately.

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Post by The Fluff » 3 months ago

@EonAon

that's a reasonable opinion. The monkey needs to do his thing early, so 4 copies makes him easier to get into the opening hand.

he's also easy to kill at one toughness, so it's better to have more monkey in the deck. :grin:
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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 months ago
are people slotting Ragavan as a 4-of in their decks?

it makes me think.. is it so effective, people still use 4 of it even if it's legendary?
It's $100 each online and $70 each in paper. If be playing 4 if I could justify the costs. It's THAT good.

It is an absolute must-answer threat that will take over a game all on its own. For 1 mana, that is a dream creature for URx control.

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
The Fluff wrote:
3 months ago
are people slotting Ragavan as a 4-of in their decks?

it makes me think.. is it so effective, people still use 4 of it even if it's legendary?
It's $100 each online and $70 each in paper. If be playing 4 if I could justify the costs. It's THAT good.

It is an absolute must-answer threat that will take over a game all on its own. For 1 mana, that is a dream creature for URx control.
Until the card is banned, EVERY Modern deck using red has it's win chances significantly improved by running 4x Ragavan. Literally every deck with red mana, for all the reasons you have already mentioned. There is currently no other card in any other color that can claim such a title, not even a close second. Do you honestly think that is a sign of a "perfectly fine" card?

EDIT: It might not even be limited to Red decks, it's so good existing non red strategies may be improved by splashing red for it!
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Post by Tzoulis » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Until the card is banned, EVERY Modern deck using red has it's win chances significantly improved by running 4x Ragavan. Literally every deck with red mana, for all the reasons you have already mentioned. There is currently no other card in any other color that can claim such a title, not even a close second. Do you honestly think that is a sign of a "perfectly fine" card?
So why doesn't Izzet Blitz, RW Taxes, Cascade decks, Omnath/5C Niv, Humans, to name a "few" decks from the last Challenge don't use it? By your evaluation, they should, but don't. Care to enlighten me as to why they don't?

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
3 months ago
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Until the card is banned, EVERY Modern deck using red has it's win chances significantly improved by running 4x Ragavan. Literally every deck with red mana, for all the reasons you have already mentioned. There is currently no other card in any other color that can claim such a title, not even a close second. Do you honestly think that is a sign of a "perfectly fine" card?
So why doesn't Izzet Blitz, RW Taxes, Cascade decks, Omnath/5C Niv, Humans, to name a "few" decks from the last Challenge don't use it? By your evaluation, they should, but don't. Care to enlighten me as to why they don't?
Behind the curve / the card is still quite expensive.

-Izzet anything should use it, probably dash mode
-RW taxes? Is this common to splash red? Regardless, if you have red and creatures, monky is a no brainer...
-Omnath...why wouldn't you? Treasure tokens accelerate and color fix.

I'd jam Ragavan into all of those decks. You won't find a red deck in modern that is not improved by 1-4x Ragavan. That doesn't mean you cannot win and do well without it, but the card is still in a pretty scary spot. Here is a 5-0 izzet list for example. Spam it til they ban it!

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Post by Simto » 3 months ago

I'm just happy to see a card "from Kaladesh" making a splash hehe. It's my favourite plane aesthetically.

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Post by drmarkb » 3 months ago

On Ragavan- my opnions have changed slightly.
I have decomissioned my loan Legacy UR delver, because I am (a) not going to spend money on him when (b) he has a big ban on his head 6 months down the line in Modern.
It is Uro all over- why would you not play this card? As people start to play it , I suspect it will start to insidiously take over. It is like playing red and not playing 4 bolts- except bolt does not run away with the game, which is what got Uro banned.
I reckon Ragavan will cop Daze a Legacy ban and perhaps eat a ban itself in 6 months in Modern. Just a hunch, but then I have made a lot of money off these hunches.

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Post by Albegas » 3 months ago

Crazy part is that Ragavan still costs more in digital than in paper. I'm withholding judgment until I finish up my post MH2 Modern decks and finally get some paper in and until I see more Challenges clearly dominated by monkey business, but either the hype (and price) is real and I should just play things that don't need Ragavan, or it'll settle in as a very strong but still manageable card and the demand will drop the price to something a bit more affordable. Not to say that I think it's ever going to tank significantly, but something around the $50 range for a mythic that's only a week old as of this post and that almost always should be run as a 4-of sounds more reasonable to me.

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Post by Bearscape » 3 months ago

Looking at how Urza's Saga is slowly seeping into every deck - if it ends up needing a nerf, I kind of hope it would be Mishra's Bauble that gets the hammer and not Urza's Saga. It isn;t the first time Bauble has been on the radar, and it just does so much for a free spell.

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Post by Arkmer » 3 months ago

I'm sort of surprised you would pick out Bauble as the issue with Urza's Saga. I thought it was more toolbox + Karn-structs, not that one specific thing it ffetched was broken. I would have thought Lurrus would be the reason to ban Bauble, tbh; not that I think that's a thing. If anything, I think Bauble is probably one of the more tame things to grab with Saga.

Am I missing some big interaction here?

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Arkmer wrote:
3 months ago
I'm sort of surprised you would pick out Bauble as the issue with Urza's Saga. I thought it was more toolbox + Karn-structs, not that one specific thing it ffetched was broken. I would have thought Lurrus would be the reason to ban Bauble, tbh; not that I think that's a thing. If anything, I think Bauble is probably one of the more tame things to grab with Saga.

Am I missing some big interaction here?
Agreed. I am running a deck that uses 4x Saga and I don't use Bauble at all. By far the best interaction is Saga > Constructs > Exp. Map. This creates a board out of nothing and threatens to scale out of control if unanswered. The deck space footprint of that package is minimal.

I am now seeing Saga in Amulet, Food, Affinity and Stoneblade. To be fair, I have yet to see anyone else but me testing it in UW, but they are out there I am certain.

Saga, as great as it is, is still pretty far from ban worthy. It's vulnerable to all kinds of fair decks. I have been saying it for a long time, get your Sagas now! Ragavan on the otherhand I would only suggest buying into knowing 100% that its days in Modern are numbered.


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Post by Arkmer » 3 months ago

I don't think either are bannable, tbh. So far, I think MH2 is far more balanced than MH1 was.

Saga is something I think people are adjusting to, it's popularity was a flurry of hype. I think it's home in Amulet Titan is very obvious, it also fits in the others mentioned but Amulet is the big one to watch in my opinion. If food decks are bannable it'll take a different card unless the obvious Amulet reference is made in the potential B&R but I think it would be a mistake for Saga to die for the Food deck that uses it as a subplot in it's plan.

Ragavan... *sigh*, I've tried typing up a response like 8 times now. I really think you are over hyping this card. It's not an auto include. You can't just say "those decks are behind the curve" as if no one has thought of it yet. Just dial it back to like 80%. Card is good, great, amazing even, but pump the breaks. We're not that far into the new meta yet.

Ragavan itself is nonevasive, has no innate protection, and has one toughness. A stiff breeze can knock it over. Lava Dart is still a prominent card. Fatal Push does matter. X=0 Prismatic Ending literally ends him. Now don't mistake me, he's a stunning turn 1 play who can take over the game in a very solid manner, but that's what you're seeing and remembering; those instances are long, drawn out, and highly visible. You're missing all the times when he's drawn on turn 3 and dies immediately, can't attack because the board state is muddy, or sits in hand because other things are more pressing. Ragavan is not pulling you back from a behind board state, it just isn't. In those situations he'll eat a removal and maybe feel like a reasonable 1 for 1 and that's the other side that needs to be evaluated here. The card is upping win percentages, yes, agreed, but it's not an auto include in everything. He doesn't fit Prowess because he needs protection to matter and Prowess doesn't do that. Same for Phoenix, same for how many other decks. He fits incredibly well in a deck that wants to T1 play him naked then uptap with Counterspell.

I'm not saying it's a bad card. **I'm not even saying it isn't literally the best card in the set**. But I am saying that even when unprompted you are touting it as bannable, slots into everything, literally splash for it, is totally infallible. Chill, dude. The meta will adjust. I promise a 1 toughness card with zero built in protection or evasion with that reputation will wear it's target on it's face and be removed often. After awhile it will gravitate towards a few specific decks, probably ones that intend to protect it. Personally, the big two that stand out to me are Jeskai Swords and Izzet Not-Delver; both want to play a protect and tempo type strategy and already have a reasonably established core set of cards. I'm not ruling out other decks, but I am saying he's very likely not bannable.

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Arkmer wrote:
3 months ago
I don't think either are bannable, tbh. So far, I think MH2 is far more balanced than MH1 was.

Saga is something I think people are adjusting to, it's popularity was a flurry of hype. I think it's home in Amulet Titan is very obvious, it also fits in the others mentioned but Amulet is the big one to watch in my opinion. If food decks are bannable it'll take a different card unless the obvious Amulet reference is made in the potential B&R but I think it would be a mistake for Saga to die for the Food deck that uses it as a subplot in it's plan.

Ragavan... *sigh*, I've tried typing up a response like 8 times now. I really think you are over hyping this card. It's not an auto include. You can't just say "those decks are behind the curve" as if no one has thought of it yet. Just dial it back to like 80%. Card is good, great, amazing even, but pump the breaks. We're not that far into the new meta yet.

Ragavan itself is nonevasive, has no innate protection, and has one toughness. A stiff breeze can knock it over. Lava Dart is still a prominent card. Fatal Push does matter. X=0 Prismatic Ending literally ends him. Now don't mistake me, he's a stunning turn 1 play who can take over the game in a very solid manner, but that's what you're seeing and remembering; those instances are long, drawn out, and highly visible. You're missing all the times when he's drawn on turn 3 and dies immediately, can't attack because the board state is muddy, or sits in hand because other things are more pressing. Ragavan is not pulling you back from a behind board state, it just isn't. In those situations he'll eat a removal and maybe feel like a reasonable 1 for 1 and that's the other side that needs to be evaluated here. The card is upping win percentages, yes, agreed, but it's not an auto include in everything. He doesn't fit Prowess because he needs protection to matter and Prowess doesn't do that. Same for Phoenix, same for how many other decks. He fits incredibly well in a deck that wants to T1 play him naked then uptap with Counterspell.

I'm not saying it's a bad card. **I'm not even saying it isn't literally the best card in the set**. But I am saying that even when unprompted you are touting it as bannable, slots into everything, literally splash for it, is totally infallible. Chill, dude. The meta will adjust. I promise a 1 toughness card with zero built in protection or evasion with that reputation will wear it's target on it's face and be removed often. After awhile it will gravitate towards a few specific decks, probably ones that intend to protect it. Personally, the big two that stand out to me are Jeskai Swords and Izzet Not-Delver; both want to play a protect and tempo type strategy and already have a reasonably established core set of cards. I'm not ruling out other decks, but I am saying he's very likely not bannable.
Well put. I just feel like we have seen this all before. With Faithless Looting, reasonable people were saying pretty much exactly what you are saying now. For over 2 years the decks to beat in Modern were the decks abusing Faithless Looting the best. People like me were said to be "overreacting" while the format rotted away to almost nothing. Maybe you are right about Rag. Magic cards are like cream, the good ones always rise to the top.

Actual dollar cost is currently prohibitive for EVERYONE to jam it at this moment in time, but just give it time. MTGO doesn't have "print runs" so if a card isnt performing its value online will certainly plummet.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 months ago

The Faithless Looting comparison is interesting. I will admit they both do something far beyond what their colors regularly do so they have that in common.

Ragavan in my mind is encouraging interaction. It enters with zero benefit so dropping a removal into it is a true 1 for 1, but if you leave it unchecked it will murder your face. Personally, I think that is healthy for the format. For quite awhile we've seen card after card evade the "dies to removal" argument by having some innate value stapled to it. Ragavan is just a new take that uses pressure instead of value to upend a removal suite.

I don't think I want to see more Ragavans printed, but this one seems like a good step.

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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

The issue with Ragavan is that the floor is a 2/1 for 1, but the ceiling is a 2/1 for 1 that draws a card and puts a land into play for free, while being a lightning rod for removal to protect bigger/badder threats. It also has 0 deckbuilding requirements, beyond producing red mana. At least DRS needed two colors and fetchlands to be good. Not that Pioneer is a meaningful metric, but it's currently legal there, and has done nothing (despite being outright banned in both Modern and Legacy).

Monke is living on borrowed time; unless Wizards wants this to be the new power level for Modern.

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Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Arkmer wrote:
3 months ago
The Faithless Looting comparison is interesting. I will admit they both do something far beyond what their colors regularly do so they have that in common.

Ragavan in my mind is encouraging interaction. It enters with zero benefit so dropping a removal into it is a true 1 for 1, but if you leave it unchecked it will murder your face. Personally, I think that is healthy for the format. For quite awhile we've seen card after card evade the "dies to removal" argument by having some innate value stapled to it. Ragavan is just a new take that uses pressure instead of value to upend a removal suite.

I don't think I want to see more Ragavans printed, but this one seems like a good step.
Responding to the bold:

IF it were stuck with summoning sickness always, the card would be just fine and nowhere near ban material. It's the Dash that breaks the card I'm afraid because it allows you to get by the downside of "does nothing when it comes into play". And what it does is so strong that if you can play it, you should be.
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Post by Arkmer » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
IF it were stuck with summoning sickness always, the card would be just fine and nowhere near ban material. It's the Dash that breaks the card I'm afraid because it allows you to get by the downside of "does nothing when it comes into play". And what it does is so strong that if you can play it, you should be.
Eh, Dash is good, but I don't think it's breaking. I do agree that it would just be a moderate card without it though. It's literally how you should use him to turn the corner after a big end of turn play. I think Dash is probably really awesome with T3feri, but things good with T3feri are not in short supply. Suffice to say, Dash is for turning the corner when you draw Ragavan late and after a strong end of turn play. Dash isn't the reason you're pulling back, it's the reason your pull back is sticking.

It'll be interesting to see how things go forward though. I'm wondering if Ragavan is good enough to warrant 1-2 Turn Aside so you can more readily protect and Bolt at the same time. The Not-Delver lists are already running basically all things that you want to protect well. The issue is what to cut, always the toughest question, lol.

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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

I think that Ragavan doesn't need protecting. Being Legendary means you just play your second one. In an aggressive deck, it means drawing removal away from your dozens of other threats. And in a control/tempo shell, you're going to be able to protect it anyway.

Like I said earlier, if I could justify spending $400 on a playset, I'd snap up four copies immediately. It's good in nearly everything that can cast it.

In other news, I am going to attempt my first paper FNM tonight in more than a year. Will be taking UR MurkeyBoi, but may swap out 4th Murktide Regent for a Ral, Izzet Viceroy if my 4th Murk doesn't come in the mail today.... Doesn't hurt that I still have my Mythic Edition Ral!

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Post by Simto » 3 months ago

I can't justify spending $400 on anything, let alone pieces of cardboard with a monkey on it.

@cfusionpm Good luck at fnm. Hopefully not too weird being back in a setting like that.

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Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

Simto wrote:
3 months ago
I can't justify spending $400 on anything, let alone pieces of cardboard with a monkey on it.
I mean, I'm no stranger to shelling out far more cash than most may be comfortable with for special, shiny, promo, etc versions of cards I love and will play with a lot. But that much money for a REGULAR version of a card that is of questionable power level leaves a very sour taste.
@cfusionpm Good luck at fnm. Hopefully not too weird being back in a setting like that.
Definitely like riding a bike! Though I literally spent a good half hour just practicing shuffling, drawing, tapping, announcing my actions/steps, etc. :rofl: Lot of internalized motions/habits all coming back. But WOW did a year of MTGO make me forget how clunky and cumbersome it is to fetch lands every turn... even with verbal shortcuts like "I'm going to fetch for an island then Opt." :?

Edit: Looks like mail decided not to send me my 4th Murktide. Still not 100% sold on all 75 (Expressive Iteration for a deck that mostly wants to play at instant speed, and clunky sideboard), but this is likely what I'll be running; or close to it! The feels are real. I miss this. :love:

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Post by VikingV » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
In other news, I am going to attempt my first paper FNM tonight in more than a year. Will be taking UR MurkeyBoi, but may swap out 4th Murktide Regent for a Ral, Izzet Viceroy if my 4th Murk doesn't come in the mail today.... Doesn't hurt that I still have my Mythic Edition Ral!
I don't have my finger on the pulse of the meta game right now. I would love for you to start a thread on the archtype

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