[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
EonAon
Posts: 174
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by EonAon » 3 months ago

Yeah gonna have to solidly agree with @cfusionpm any time you say package that is not part of a already existing deck your really saying lets throw darts at the board and see if it sticks in the right way.

I honestly see saga maybe being used in some amulet titan deck with undying or persist creatures an The Ozolith so as to slideways counters. Saga really is a midrange card or tutor/ramp to it so you can start a combo. The second ability just needs other lands in play to actually get use from it before it self destructs or to continually spam the token.

I would not throw it in a aggro environment because you don't want nor need certain specialized cards that have to be laid down turn two and then on the turn played not produce mana in the sequence that you need. The first three turns in aggro set the tone for the rest of your plays. And you absolutely need coherent/consistent mana those turns The only reason the cipt lands get any use in that budget affinity is that they costed down so many cards to free or nearly. He also still needed every mana he could get to play the Thoughts for benefits, considering he really was insanely lucky at times getting the thoughts for the draw.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 3 months ago

Yes, that sounds rude. T3 is a card that makes for frustrated players. Personally I rather like preventing interaction, but on more symmetrical cards than T3. Attacking the stack seems a bit OTT in blue though, which is supposed to be about encouraging stacks.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 3 months ago

question.. just in case I missed an update.. is the vancouver mulligan still the one being used? Or is there a new mulligan rule?
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 3 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
3 months ago
question.. just in case I missed an update.. is the vancouver mulligan still the one being used? Or is there a new mulligan rule?
It's still London mull as far as I know. I haven't seen any announcements of it being changed.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 3 months ago

ok thanks. Glad to hear that.
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 592
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 3 months ago

Vancouver?

Paris, London I know- what is the Vancouver mull?

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 149
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 3 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
3 months ago
Vancouver?

Paris, London I know- what is the Vancouver mull?
Vancouver Mulligan was when you would draw one less for every time you mulled, but after you finished taking mulligans you could scry 1. It replaced the Paris mulligan in 2015 and was itself replaced by the London Mull when Core Set 2020 was released.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

I saw some chatter recently about the prevalence of Mishra's Bauble. And that seems to be reflected in its recent big price spikes again. Paper copies are now well above $20 and MTGO are pushing past $50tx for the first time since companions were nerfed. Not saying anything needs to be banned or whatever nonsense, but if you have em, now might be a GREAT time to offload them.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
I saw some chatter recently about the prevalence of Mishra's Bauble. And that seems to be reflected in its recent big price spikes again. Paper copies are now well above $20 and MTGO are pushing past $50tx for the first time since companions were nerfed. Not saying anything needs to be banned or whatever nonsense, but if you have em, now might be a GREAT time to offload them.
Wow thanks for the tip I just dumped an extra set for ~195tix!
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

Was gonna try to pick up some Ragavans with the profits, but WOW. I guess not!

On the plus side, this is the second time I've made a massive profit with Baubles. First was buying them YEARS ago for <$10tx and selling at they hype of the Companion craze for something like $250tx for the playset. And now, I re-bought them not too long ago for like $7 a piece and just sold the playset last night for $201tx. Makes it feel a little better for losing so much value on Uros and Kroxas and Skyclaves. But these Monkeys.... woof.
barfffff.PNG

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 3 months ago

that's one expensive monkey.. I guess because he slots into a lot of decks?
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

I don't think Monkey is bannable, but it's probably one of the (if not THE) best one-drop ever printed. Because it's a completely self-contained snowball engine that requires zero deckbuilding costs and zero support to be good. Effectively making mana, drawing cards, and denying opponent resources, all while attacking for 2 each turn, for the low low price of 1 mana. And thanks to Dash, it can also completely dodge Sorcery speed answers. The thing is nuts in any shell that can cast it, from Aggro to hard Control.

Aazadan
Posts: 547
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Aazadan » 3 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
4 months ago
I am pretty convinced that in 6 months Saga will have left a building. Might be a Legacy.building, might be the Modern one, but it will go.
I suspect that Ragavan will not see any ban, but we may see Daze go in Legacy for its sins. In Modern it is no Gaak, I can't see it getting the hammer.....
They banned DRS, I think they would ban Ragavan before Daze.

User avatar
Guardman
A Dog's Dream of Man
Posts: 677
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: In a Turn-Based World

Post by Guardman » 3 months ago

The funny thing is Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer isn't even the only expensive red one-drop in the set. Dragon's Rage Channeler is $7 and its only an uncommon. If it was a rare it would probably be $30+.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
3 months ago
I don't think Monkey is bannable, but it's probably one of the (if not THE) best one-drop ever printed. Because it's a completely self-contained snowball engine that requires zero deckbuilding costs and zero support to be good. Effectively making mana, drawing cards, and denying opponent resources, all while attacking for 2 each turn, for the low low price of 1 mana. And thanks to Dash, it can also completely dodge Sorcery speed answers. The thing is nuts in any shell that can cast it, from Aggro to hard Control.
You say it's not bannable then go on to list a fairly complete list of reasons why they will be banning it. The card is possibly fair for Legacy but recall that DRS is banned in modern. I would say that Ragavan is a stronger 1drop than DRS. They will let folks have their fun for a few months but it will have to go.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1178
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 3 months ago

So my opponent today learned how Murktide worked. Thought Scour in response to their Spellbomb likely raised some eyebrows, until all the triggers went on the stack. :rofl:
Not super relevant to discussion. Just wanted to share. :?
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/91/9ej0oh.png

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Check this video out. It's a pretty good watch and meta summary. I was intrigued on how little Tron is being played right now. The reviewer (correctly) notes that there really is no decks out there preying on Tron so its absence is a bit mysterious (and probably just temporary). Also of note UW strategies taking advantage of Urza's Saga. The T5feri +1 on Saga getting extra constructs is pretty gross.

Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 314
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Also of note UW strategies taking advantage of Urza's Saga. The T5feri +1 on Saga getting extra constructs is pretty gross.
Seriously, you're at it again? What UW decks are taking advantage of Urza's Saga? You were wrong the first time, why are you repeating the same again? It was a couple (maybe even just 1) 5-0 and JUST one top 8 finish by the same player the first few days after MH2 dropped. NO ONE has replicated the list since; not even in the league results. Seriously, it's dead easy to check it.

Also, Affinity el oh el. It's is irrelevant in the Challenges (I don't think even 1 has top 32'd a challenge so far).
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
The reviewer (correctly) notes that there really is no decks out there preying on Tron so its absence is a bit mysterious (and probably just temporary)
Tron is irrelevant, because Prowess, Blitz, UW Control and Amulet are major forces in the format. I assume Food Variants are at best neutral. Plus, Hammertime made a comeback last weekend. So, that's wrong too.

I'd recommend reading the Reddit breakdowns of the Challenges, and to a lesser degree the League results, if you want to have a proper view of the Meta at the moment - which is changing by the day, with a few pillars forming.
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
You say it's not bannable then go on to list a fairly complete list of reasons why they will be banning it. The card is possibly fair for Legacy but recall that DRS is banned in modern. I would say that Ragavan is a stronger 1drop than DRS. They will let folks have their fun for a few months but it will have to go.
Commented on it in the thread about its price, but I'll continue it here since it is more appropriate.

DRS and Ragavan are not even in the same planet power level wise. DRS is far more dangerous and versatile. It doesn't have to connect, it just... taps, while controlling opponents' graveyard while at the same time ramping you or gaining you life or clocking your opponents. Also, it blocks well (for a 1 drop). The comparison is bad.

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
I've been right about every card that has needed to be banned since way before MH1. I highly doubt I'm way off the mark on this one.
Good for you? Your over the top reaction to several MH2 cards suggest otherwise though. Along with your over the top proclamations about Grief being "all over the place" (also implying it will get banned).

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

@Tzoulis You are oddly hostile, and I think I know why. Ragavan is a card you are into and any talk of banning it is a turd in your punch bowl. I was merely trying to share a neat MTG related video, in which the reviewer made some similar points to things I was saying. Wow, what a monster I must be...
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 314
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
@Tzoulis You are oddly hostile, and I think I know why. Ragavan is a card you are into and any talk of banning it is a turd in your punch bowl. I was merely trying to share a neat MTG related video, in which the reviewer made some similar points to things I was saying. Wow, what a monster I must be...
I'm aggressive, not hostile. And I'm aggressive because you keep making grand proclamations of cards needing to be banned with little to no data, and when asked to back up your claims you revert to "past experience" or general comments or asinine comparisons and when THOSE are met with experience from others you shut them down or avoid the matter altogether by changing the subject or reverting to your original claims, thus ending in a cyclical argument.

I don't care about Ragavan, nor about Urza's Saga for that matter, but what I hate is people ceaselessly spamming for new banning cards with very few or no data points or ignoring others' experience completely. Or you know, ad hominem attacks like the above, rather than discuss on the merits of my arguments, which you haven't done.

And yes, I'll criticize the video - and the person linking it saying it's a "good meta summary", where the content creator dives head first into wrong assumptions and evaluations like UWx control with Urza's Saga and that Tron isn't played much despite having some seriously bad match ups being top tier currently.

So any counter points to my arguments or?

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
3 months ago
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
@Tzoulis You are oddly hostile, and I think I know why. Ragavan is a card you are into and any talk of banning it is a turd in your punch bowl. I was merely trying to share a neat MTG related video, in which the reviewer made some similar points to things I was saying. Wow, what a monster I must be...
I'm aggressive, not hostile. And I'm aggressive because you keep making grand proclamations of cards needing to be banned with little to no data, and when asked to back up your claims you revert to "past experience" or general comments or asinine comparisons and when THOSE are met with experience from others you shut them down or avoid the matter altogether by changing the subject or reverting to your original claims, thus ending in a cyclical argument.

I don't care about Ragavan, nor about Urza's Saga for that matter, but what I hate is people ceaselessly spamming for new banning cards with very few or no data points or ignoring others' experience completely. Or you know, ad hominem attacks like the above, rather than discuss on the merits of my arguments, which you haven't done.

And yes, I'll criticize the video - and the person linking it saying it's a "good meta summary", where the content creator dives head first into wrong assumptions and evaluations like UWx control with Urza's Saga and that Tron isn't played much despite having some seriously bad match ups being top tier currently.

So any counter points to my arguments or?
I've already countered them, or more specifically cfusion outlined all the reasons Ragavan will be gone. SImply put, it does too much for too many different strategies. I never said anything about Saga getting banned, only that it is an amazing card. Saga isn't even really close to do anything unfair.

If you do not agree with the reviewer in the video, well that's fine. Maybe you should make some content to refute it. I can picture it now, You screaming into the mic about how stupid anyone else is to think that Rag just might be a little bit too much. I wonder if you will get 10k+ likes the way he did. lel.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Simto » 3 months ago

robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Check this video out. It's a pretty good watch and meta summary. I was intrigued on how little Tron is being played right now. The reviewer (correctly) notes that there really is no decks out there preying on Tron so its absence is a bit mysterious (and probably just temporary). Also of note UW strategies taking advantage of Urza's Saga. The T5feri +1 on Saga getting extra constructs is pretty gross.

The look on that dude's face makes me want to never click on it. So tired of Youtube stuff for reals.

User avatar
robertleva
Posts: 582
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by robertleva » 3 months ago

Simto wrote:
3 months ago
robertleva wrote:
3 months ago
Check this video out. It's a pretty good watch and meta summary. I was intrigued on how little Tron is being played right now. The reviewer (correctly) notes that there really is no decks out there preying on Tron so its absence is a bit mysterious (and probably just temporary). Also of note UW strategies taking advantage of Urza's Saga. The T5feri +1 on Saga getting extra constructs is pretty gross.

The look on that dude's face makes me want to never click on it. So tired of Youtube stuff for reals.
Wow. Is this the kind of forum we have here? Arbitrarily dismissing someone based on you dont like the look of their face? It couldnt possibly be that he has an opinion that might be different than your. No, of course not.
Robert Leva
Creator of Modern's 8Rack Deck
Image

User avatar
EonAon
Posts: 174
Joined: 8 months ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by EonAon » 3 months ago

Ok he lost all credibility when he showed you play Urzas saga in classic style affinity. This Is probably the deck he is using for basis and I honestly want to know how many times the creator/player actually used saga without creating a speedbump to themselves. Yes the deck did go 5-0 in a modern league, but without gameplay data to back it up just jamming Saga in only tells us it was used once in a affinity deck that did well. Its also the only deck on Goldfish in the filter for modern marked as affinity that actually HAS Saga in it. Which only has a 0.8% play of the meta off goldfish.

Even then the cards he shows us during his video are not relevant. Arcbound Ravager isn't in affinity atm (nor in any other of the recent decks marked affinity on goldfish) and the other deck he was discussing is this which I can see using saga to a much better extent, but since the data is actually from a hardened scales deck rather than what many would term affinity (though we could call it bots) thats more bias on the tubers part than actual data about affinity. Also the hardened scales deck was used on 06/06/21 and since then the release in paper will alter the data considering innovation.

Now this deck is the one that pops highest on Goldfish which is the ones created by Goldfish themselves and is actually the budget version of the deck. The rest of the affinity found on goldfish are budget burn variants or some other artifact variant and do NOT include Saga. Now this could be just data lag since not everyone reports back but still.... only two data points to say its trending with or without saga isnt enough.

When he talks about the rest of the decks in his top ten he is also not backing anything up except his own opinion. Blitz decks which are actually Prowess decks are still 3.8% of the meta breakdown off Goldfish. Delver decks using Dragon's Rage Channeler are 1.4% of the meta reported. Titan is 4.7% and Stoneblade is 2.8%. Living end is 2.8%. The only one I agree with is the u/w control deck (which was last seen with a 6th place at 06/06/21) and that had saga in it for no other reason I could see other than to boost the decks total monetary value.

Having opinions is fine, backing them up with the correct data is better.

User avatar
The Fluff
is this so?
Posts: 2121
Joined: 2 years ago
Pronoun: Unlisted
Location: Gradius Home World
Contact:

Post by The Fluff » 3 months ago

are people slotting Ragavan as a 4-of in their decks?

it makes me think.. is it so effective, people still use 4 of it even if it's legendary?
Image
AnimEVO 2020 - EFZ Tournament (english commentary) // OE 2016 // POF 2018
want to play a uw control deck in modern, but don't have Jace or snapcaster? please come visit us at the Emeria thread

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”