[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

Saga slipped passed and has been confirmed to be in a state that would not have left the development room if other things hadn't been more pressing at the time. Does that maean Urzas will be banned? Not sure honestly. I would still get a playset. Jam it until it's banned is the Modern mantra right?
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Post by Arkmer » 4 months ago

I don't know. There's real possibility that it's busted, but also it might just get banned for homogenizing decks. It just sounds like everything is trying to run it, maybe those who are successfully countering it are still just too far in the minority to be heard properly by the meta.

I've seen it played a few times on streams and just think that it's sorta slow against removal. I'm going to keep playing control and just slide a few Fracturing Gust into my Esper sideboard to wipe things clean, maybe that's enough. I've seen a few other players talk about Wear//Tear in Jeskai and just try to get that one mana Stone Rain or 3 mana to destroy the Construct as well.

I sorta wonder if it's good enough for control lists to run or if the mana dedication is too much. Anyone know of any streams that play this in like a UWx list? Or RUG with Wren? Hell, I might even try BUG.

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Post by Aazadan » 4 months ago

robertleva wrote:
4 months ago
Saga slipped passed and has been confirmed to be in a state that would not have left the development room if other things hadn't been more pressing at the time. Does that maean Urzas will be banned? Not sure honestly. I would still get a playset. Jam it until it's banned is the Modern mantra right?

Where was this confirmed?

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Post by cfusionpm » 4 months ago

After some cursory testing with a Murktide Regent UR list, this beefy drago-boi seems to be EXACTLY what UR needed (along with a handful of other new toys). Card has been absolutely excellent, including playing INSANELY well in multiples and with Snapcaster Mage. Will be immediately picking up 4 paper copies and firmly in the UR Midrange/Control Pile camp once I can play in Paper again.

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Post by Tzoulis » 4 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
4 months ago
Where was this confirmed?
They probably refer to Sam Black's tweet that said that he, personally, didn't playtest the card. So, it's - at best - a misunderstanding of what was said since I haven't seen any other official/unofficial responses specifically referring to Urza's Saga.

Saturday's challenge had 32 copies of the card (8 decks, mostly in Amulet Titan and Foodgaak [Asmor] decks). The same applies for Sunday's Challenge, but only with 20 copies (5 decks).

So, while yes it is being played, it is not played by everyone - Ragavan and Dragon's Rage Channeler are seeing similar numbers.

So it's WAY too early to even make any kind of conclusions about whether is broken or not.
cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
After some cursory testing with a Murktide Regent UR list, this beefy drago-boi seems to be EXACTLY what UR needed (along with a handful of other new toys). Card has been absolutely excellent, including playing INSANELY well in multiples and with Snapcaster Mage. Will be immediately picking up 4 paper copies and firmly in the UR Midrange/Control Pile camp once I can play in Paper again.
I thought you'd have liked the newest iterations of UR Breach pre-MH2 (with Prismari Command) that was already putting up results, given how close to Twin it seemed to be.

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Post by cfusionpm » 4 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
4 months ago
I thought you'd have liked the newest iterations of UR Breach pre-MH2 (with Prismari Command) that was already putting up results, given how close to Twin it seemed to be.
In the past, when I played Breach a lot, there were more times than I am comfortable with when a Breached Emrakul wasn't enough to win on the spot. I either lost on a swingback or slowly spun my wheels, completely out of gas, while my opponent's threat-dense decks did their thing to recover. It wins on the spot the majority of times. But when it doesn't, it seems to fall FLAT on its face. Perhaps that has changed with lots of new added cards, but I seem to like the Snap/Bolt plan being back on the table.

Unrelated, if anyone wants Emrakuls, I have 2 GP promos and 2 pre-release promos! :rofl:

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Post by Tzoulis » 4 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
In the past, when I played Breach a lot, there were more times than I am comfortable with when a Breached Emrakul wasn't enough to win on the spot. I either lost on a swingback or slowly spun my wheels, completely out of gas, while my opponent's threat-dense decks did their thing to recover. It wins on the spot the majority of times. But when it doesn't, it seems to fall FLAT on its face. Perhaps that has changed with lots of new added cards, but I seem to like the Snap/Bolt plan being back on the table.
That's fair, though prior to MH2, Prismari Command could help power out T4 Breaches and also loot away redundant pieces (it also became mainstay for 5C Niv and Scapeshift decks.

Post MH2, the Dragon, Counterspell and Subtlety seem like major upgrades for not just Breach but URx decks as well. Plus, Dragon's Rage Channeler seems insane in more tempo/aggressive oriented URx decks. Hell, it might revive Phoenix decks.

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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
4 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
4 months ago
Where was this confirmed?
They probably refer to Sam Black's tweet that said that he, personally, didn't playtest the card. So, it's - at best - a misunderstanding of what was said since I haven't seen any other official/unofficial responses specifically referring to Urza's Saga.

Saturday's challenge had 32 copies of the card (8 decks, mostly in Amulet Titan and Foodgaak [Asmor] decks). The same applies for Sunday's Challenge, but only with 20 copies (5 decks).

So, while yes it is being played, it is not played by everyone - Ragavan and Dragon's Rage Channeler are seeing similar numbers.

So it's WAY too early to even make any kind of conclusions about whether is broken or not.
cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
After some cursory testing with a Murktide Regent UR list, this beefy drago-boi seems to be EXACTLY what UR needed (along with a handful of other new toys). Card has been absolutely excellent, including playing INSANELY well in multiples and with Snapcaster Mage. Will be immediately picking up 4 paper copies and firmly in the UR Midrange/Control Pile camp once I can play in Paper again.


I thought you'd have liked the newest iterations of UR Breach pre-MH2 (with Prismari Command) that was already putting up results, given how close to Twin it seemed to be.
Yes he stated that if he hadn't been caught up in getting Kavu under control, Urza's doesn't get printed in the state it currently in. It sort of flew under the radar. Is it bannable? I don't think so...but it will need to be watched. It just does too much for a land, in my opinion. You get a couple of constructs and a toolbox answer, or chain it together with Exp Map. None of it can be countered either. This is a solid finisher for a lot of control shells.
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Post by Tzoulis » 4 months ago

robertleva wrote:
4 months ago
Yes he stated that if he hadn't been caught up in getting Kavu under control, Urza's doesn't get printed in the state it currently in. It sort of flew under the radar. Is it bannable? I don't think so...but it will need to be watched. It just does too much for a land, in my opinion. You get a couple of constructs and a toolbox answer, or chain it together with Exp Map. None of it can be countered either. This is a solid finisher for a lot of control shells.
He made a follow up tweet saying, he should have changed it, but Sam's also extremely conservative (and sometimes weird) in his card evaluations/designs, especially when it comes to artifacts and Modern in general.

It's a great card, but it is far from omnipresent, overpowered or any other adjective that you can think of that warrants a ban consideration.

Also, each construct is 3 mana (2 + the tap), it sac's itself, and if you want to continue the chain you have to pay another 2. So, now, your control deck has 4 colorless lands it needs to fit in a tight manabase with double U, triple U and double W costs - and if we are talking about the UW list that placed a week ago, which forwent the Field of Ruin, if not you're removing Castle Vantress'/Ardenvale(s). Then you have to add a number of 0/1 cost artifacts to actually tutor with the land, which further dilute/replace your flexible spells such as Archmage's Charm.

It was an experiment that if anything, showed that the core of UW is incredibly strong. Also, just one list out of many etc. etc.

It's not free, and it's not even a solid finisher for non-artifact Control decks; and even for them - if they even or ever exist, it's not even clear if it's better than Whir of Invention.
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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
4 months ago
robertleva wrote:
4 months ago
Yes he stated that if he hadn't been caught up in getting Kavu under control, Urza's doesn't get printed in the state it currently in. It sort of flew under the radar. Is it bannable? I don't think so...but it will need to be watched. It just does too much for a land, in my opinion. You get a couple of constructs and a toolbox answer, or chain it together with Exp Map. None of it can be countered either. This is a solid finisher for a lot of control shells.
He made a follow up tweet saying, he should have changed it, but Sam's also extremely conservative (and sometimes weird) in his card evaluations/designs, especially when it comes to artifacts and Modern in general.

It's a great card, but it is far from omnipresent, overpowered or any other adjective that you can think of that warrants a ban consideration.

Also, each construct is 3 mana (2 + the tap), it sac's itself, and if you want to continue the chain you have to pay another 2. So, now, your control deck has 4 colorless lands it needs to fit in a tight manabase with double U, triple U and double W costs - and if we are talking about the UW list that placed a week ago, which forwent the Field of Ruin, if not you're removing Castle Vantress'/Ardenvale(s). Then you have to add a number of 0/1 cost artifacts to actually tutor with the land, which further dilute/replace your flexible spells such as Archmage's Charm.

It's not free, and it's not even a solid finisher for non-artifact Control decks; and even for them - if they even or ever exist, it's not even clear if it's better than Whir of Invention.
I can tell you haven't played it much / at all. It's a solid finisher for a non-artifact control deck. Does it have mana cost? Yep, but it uncounterable and control decks are trying to set up grindy scenarios where this is perfect. You dont jam it Turn 1 and call it good.
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Post by Tzoulis » 4 months ago

robertleva wrote:
4 months ago
I can tell you haven't played it much / at all. It's a solid finisher for a non-artifact control deck. Does it have mana cost? Yep, but it uncounterable and control decks are trying to set up grindy scenarios where this is perfect. You dont jam it Turn 1 and call it good.
So what happens when you have a 2 lander with it in hand? Or multiples? Because 4 field of ruins had this awkward interaction, but you could get out of it because they color fixed.

Or what do you do in aggro matchups where you want to start double spelling and you cant because your land(s) keep sacrificing themselves? Or if it is stone rained by an Esper Charm/Wear Tear/ Spreading Seas'd/ T3feri bounces it back? You're opening up yourself to so many awkward incidental hate and mulligan decisions for a land that forces you to give up some of the best cards in your deck.

I've been playing control for years, and I can understand the power of Urza's Saga because I've been playing Whir toolbox artifact decks for years as well. So I know what I'm talking about when I say that Control and it don't mix well.

You know which land is great in grindy matchups that doesn't color screw you or sacrifices itself? Castle Vantress.

Plus, subsequent Challenges and even League dumps heavily contest the notion that it is a "great control finisher" since there is no control deck using it - even in today's league dump.

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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

I am all about control too. I have a different view of it. I'm not even talking about artifact control decks, I am talking about the more broad spectrum picture of control. BW grief-blade? Sure toss it in. Lantern? Yep goes here too. W6 has fun with it. Plus UW can make room for a lot more cards by hiding its finisher in lands. The list goes on. I'm NOT saying its bannable, but I AM saying get your playsets now.
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Post by drmarkb » 4 months ago

If it is banned it will go from.Modern and radically lose price.
Perhaps it is worth waiting 3 months whilst the card goes nuts online?

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Post by cfusionpm » 4 months ago

I'll hard pass on Urza's Saga. Even if it is just "good" and not "broken," you need a fair amount of additional artifacts in the deck to really make it worthwhile, especially since it's not an artifact itself. If I'm not playing other artifacts, there's no way I put this in anything, IMO. Even in something like Stoneblade, I feel like I would rather have Castle Ardenvale to make bodies and still cast my spells without needing to clutter my lists with mediocre artifacts.

If it ends up being a problem, it'll be because some heavy artifact deck is abusing it. Not because it could go in a bunch of decks.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it seems like stuff like Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is way more versatile and universally good in any deck that can cast it. I don't think I've faced an Urza's Saga and ever felt like it was overwhelming, or even anything more than a minor annoyance. Monkey Pirate though? Kill on sight, or it takes over the game.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 months ago

someone in mtgs mentioned "rise of affinity", is the deck coming back up again? There's talk in our Emeria Titan thread at mtgs about using Kataki war's wage... so maybe affinity, or some other aggro artifact deck is making a good performance? :thinking:
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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
I'll hard pass on Urza's Saga. Even if it is just "good" and not "broken," you need a fair amount of additional artifacts in the deck to really make it worthwhile, especially since it's not an artifact itself. If I'm not playing other artifacts, there's no way I put this in anything, IMO. Even in something like Stoneblade, I feel like I would rather have Castle Ardenvale to make bodies and still cast my spells without needing to clutter my lists with mediocre artifacts.

If it ends up being a problem, it'll be because some heavy artifact deck is abusing it. Not because it could go in a bunch of decks.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but it seems like stuff like Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer is way more versatile and universally good in any deck that can cast it. I don't think I've faced an Urza's Saga and ever felt like it was overwhelming, or even anything more than a minor annoyance. Monkey Pirate though? Kill on sight, or it takes over the game.
You are definitely right about Ragavan. Of any card, I think that one has the most chance to be banned. I'm no red deck expert, but I see that card being jammed a ton. It's a 1 card lock vs durdley type decks. Thankfully, I don't see the card "breaking modern" the way hogaak did, but Ragavan is definitely on the watch list.

That said, don't miss the bus on Saga.
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Post by Guardman » 4 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
4 months ago
someone in mtgs mentioned "rise of affinity", is the deck coming back up again? There's talk in our Emeria Titan thread at mtgs about using Kataki war's wage... so maybe affinity, or some other aggro artifact deck is making a good performance? :thinking:
It is coming back, or it is at least viable. For example MTGGoldfish had good success with a budget version (i.e. no Urza's Saga) of the deck just the other day.


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Post by cfusionpm » 4 months ago

So if something breaks Urza's Saga, it might be Power Conduit's ability to repeatedly (and for free) remove counters. I didn't realize Sagas "officially" used counters that can be interacted with in the rules, because honestly, I haven't played much of any format where anyone played Sagas with any regularity. So this... definitely intrigues me. Scooped to this and a Walking Ballista on the stack, even after a turn 3 6/6 Murky Boi. :\

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Post by EonAon » 4 months ago

Guardman wrote:
4 months ago
The Fluff wrote:
4 months ago
someone in mtgs mentioned "rise of affinity", is the deck coming back up again? There's talk in our Emeria Titan thread at mtgs about using Kataki war's wage... so maybe affinity, or some other aggro artifact deck is making a good performance? :thinking:
It is coming back, or it is at least viable. For example MTGGoldfish had good success with a budget version (i.e. no Urza's Saga) of the deck just the other day.

I don t know if you want to play saga in that build, or what you would pull for the saga to work well. Unless you go with the suggested power conduit, with as slow as the actual mana base is you notice that he always barely has enough mana to cover the initial plays and that the one time memnite was removed he was put on the back foot pretty hard. Now imagine if that darksteel citadel was saga, I dont believe he would have gotten that win. Maybe with a less affinity and a wider plan it could work better but altering the land base as twitchy as it seemed to be in that vid would be a chore.

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Post by Simto » 4 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
So if something breaks Urza's Saga, it might be Power Conduit's ability to repeatedly (and for free) remove counters. I didn't realize Sagas "officially" used counters that can be interacted with in the rules, because honestly, I haven't played much of any format where anyone played Sagas with any regularity. So this... definitely intrigues me. Scooped to this and a Walking Ballista on the stack, even after a turn 3 6/6 Murky Boi. :\

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That is a rather nasty combo with the Saga and Power Conduit. And yeah, saga's have counters, so you can proliferate them too for a faster ultimate if that's what you're going for too.
I don't think the verdict on Power Conduit for the deck is out yet though. It's one of my favourite decks so I've been trying to follow what people have been saying about it. As far as I can tell, it's kinda inconsistent because it's either really good or doesn't really do much. So the verdict's still out I guess.
I'm happy to see Hardened Scales popping up again though. Such a cool and difficult, but fun deck to play. Wish I had the dosh to get it in paper.

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Post by The Fluff » 4 months ago

@Guardman

thanks for the info. So Affinity did come back..
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Post by robertleva » 4 months ago

Simto wrote:
4 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
So if something breaks Urza's Saga, it might be Power Conduit's ability to repeatedly (and for free) remove counters. I didn't realize Sagas "officially" used counters that can be interacted with in the rules, because honestly, I haven't played much of any format where anyone played Sagas with any regularity. So this... definitely intrigues me. Scooped to this and a Walking Ballista on the stack, even after a turn 3 6/6 Murky Boi. :\

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That is a rather nasty combo with the Saga and Power Conduit. And yeah, saga's have counters, so you can proliferate them too for a faster ultimate if that's what you're going for too.
I don't think the verdict on Power Conduit for the deck is out yet though. It's one of my favourite decks so I've been trying to follow what people have been saying about it. As far as I can tell, it's kinda inconsistent because it's either really good or doesn't really do much. So the verdict's still out I guess.
I'm happy to see Hardened Scales popping up again though. Such a cool and difficult, but fun deck to play. Wish I had the dosh to get it in paper.
You can jam Saga all over the place. People are just now slowing realizing it. The power conduit interaction is interesting. Hexparasite is an alternate way to that type of interaction. You can find parasite with a fallen saga. It's a little cute but at least it's a self contained package.
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Post by Guardman » 4 months ago

EonAon wrote:
4 months ago
Guardman wrote:
4 months ago
The Fluff wrote:
4 months ago
someone in mtgs mentioned "rise of affinity", is the deck coming back up again? There's talk in our Emeria Titan thread at mtgs about using Kataki war's wage... so maybe affinity, or some other aggro artifact deck is making a good performance? :thinking:
It is coming back, or it is at least viable. For example MTGGoldfish had good success with a budget version (i.e. no Urza's Saga) of the deck just the other day.

I don t know if you want to play saga in that build, or what you would pull for the saga to work well. Unless you go with the suggested power conduit, with as slow as the actual mana base is you notice that he always barely has enough mana to cover the initial plays and that the one time memnite was removed he was put on the back foot pretty hard. Now imagine if that darksteel citadel was saga, I dont believe he would have gotten that win. Maybe with a less affinity and a wider plan it could work better but altering the land base as twitchy as it seemed to be in that vid would be a chore.
I don't think he meant cutting Darksteel Citadel or the other artifact lands, but probably Blinkmoth Nexus or some non-land card. I also wouldn't be surprised if the deck doesn't want a full playset, but one or two maindeck as a good back-up plan for closing out the game.

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Post by Tzoulis » 4 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
4 months ago
So if something breaks Urza's Saga, it might be Power Conduit's ability to repeatedly (and for free) remove counters. I didn't realize Sagas "officially" used counters that can be interacted with in the rules, because honestly, I haven't played much of any format where anyone played Sagas with any regularity. So this... definitely intrigues me. Scooped to this and a Walking Ballista on the stack, even after a turn 3 6/6 Murky Boi.
Did you also know that when a Modular creature dies, the Ozolith AND a creature get the counters? Yeah, that's nasty.
The Fluff wrote:
4 months ago
thanks for the info. So Affinity did come back..
I don't think that "back" is the best word to describe it. It's certainly more playable than it was before - with actual Affinity cards to boot, but it seems like it'll stay around, but at Tier 2 or Tier 3. It can grind very well - not against a Stony Silence, but other combo/fast decks seem to be tough match ups. Also, I agree with @Guardman, I think the deck doesn't want 4 Sagas, maybe 2 or max 3, you'd rather keep mana to activate manlands or equip Plating/Nettlecyst, plus tutoring up an Ornithopter or Memnite doesn't seem like pretty impactful.
robertleva wrote:
4 months ago
You can jam Saga all over the place. People are just now slowing realizing it. The power conduit interaction is interesting. Hexparasite is an alternate way to that type of interaction. You can find parasite with a fallen saga. It's a little cute but at least it's a self contained package.
Where is this "all over the place" coming from? Because as the set is being more and more iterated Ragavan seems to be slotting in WAY more decks than Saga is. And Hexparasite is a cool idea, but it's maybe as a 1- or 2- of, the Urza lists that played it had only that as a relevant target; it is also extremely slow and fragile. It's also in - again - an artifact deck, not in "random" ones. The only "random" list from the last league data is the 8-rack one, the rest are either Amulet, Food or Artifact decks - no control lists are playing it.

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Post by EonAon » 4 months ago

Guardman wrote:
4 months ago

I don't think he meant cutting Darksteel Citadel or the other artifact lands, but probably Blinkmoth Nexus or some non-land card. I also wouldn't be surprised if the deck doesn't want a full playset, but one or two maindeck as a good back-up plan for closing out the game.
Actually Blinkmoth is one of the more essential ways to win in the deck since you can animate then slide a plating or cyst to it if you can afford the mana. I agree that full playset of saga probably not a good thing but its probably a 3 off, maybe. You really want to see it somewhat early so that verse three is decently relevant but since on turn two it only consumes mana rather than give mana....

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