[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

Ironically, even as a huge lover of special treatment cards, I just can't get too excited about many of the TSR or Mystical Vault cards. Nearly everything I need or want, I already have some other special version. It puts me in a really weird spot since like, for example, I have foil Theros Beyond Death Field of Ruins (love the purple art), and the old border Fields are cool too.... but like... I already have a playset of "special" ones and the worthwhile copies (foil old border) are way too expensive to justify. Same goes for Eternal Witness, where I have a box topper for my Commander deck, so the old border (with the same art) feels very meh.

I know that's a SUPER enfranchised player 'problem' but I remember a while back someone somewhere saying that the saturation of "special" copies of any given card make each individual "special" copy that much less "special."

That was a needlessly long way of saying I picked up a small handful of old border cards (less than a half dozen) and so far have no interest in any of the Mystical Vault cards. Which feels SUPER weird, given my love for fancy/special versions of cards...

At the end of the day though, these special cards are helping drive prices down, which is great for players all around.

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

I agree with the "each individual special copy feels less special", there's just too much stuff, but at the same time you can visually customise your decks more to how you like them with all those options.
I honestly don't care if something is limited edition or stuff like that, I'll just pick the version/art I like the best, but I prefer alt art version of stuff most of the time lol... It's just usually better or more interesting. And you can bet your ass I will jam a card with art I like into a deck no matter how good or bad it is hehe.

They just pump out too much stuff really and I know I know "nOT ALL mAGiC PRoDucTS aRE fOr EVerYOne!", but it's gotten to the point where I will just more or less ignore spoilers and just have a look at the one or two crazy cards they print each set. I only keep an eye out for anything with Modern potential just out of curiosity really. it's 99% limited crap anyway (I generally hate they focus so much on drafting which I will never play)
There's maybe one or two weeks of pause before a new set is revealed and spoilers start again with tons of random ass nobody twitch streamers post a photo where 2/3 of the frame is them making a stupid face or something and then some random common or uncommon they were granted by Wizards to promote.
I'm old, tired and bitter...

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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

Simto wrote:
6 months ago
And you can bet your ass I will jam a card with art I like into a deck no matter how good or bad it is hehe.
I'm not going to pretend I don't do this either. Especially if I have some special foil/promo version. :grin: :love:

Especially at the paper FNM level, I will ALWAYS err on the side of what do I want to look at in my hand that makes me smile, over the objectively correct decklist choices. :crazy: :party:

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

Do you guys think Abundant Harvest is going to make a splash in Modern when it's introduced to the card pool later this year?
It kinda looks a bit like it could be an interesting swap for Ancient Stirrings, although Stirrings almost feels like you're cheating when you play it hehe.

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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

It baffles me that green continues to get bonkers card selection for 1 mana, while blue gets stuck at 2 mana or trash like Opt and Serum Visions. :\

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Post by Albegas » 6 months ago

It doesn't seem that great if we're talking about selection. Land and nonland are pretty broad strokes, and being forced to take the first one you find feels less like selection and more like you're removing a potential clump of lands or non-lands. I don't see this replacing Stirrings in Tron, which lets you actually choose the best off the top 5 cards of your deck, or even Opt and Serum Visions, which can let you scry away non-lands you want to find the the non-land you need.

Really I only see Abundant Harvest being really good in a deck that's so loaded with lands that you only need 4 Abundant Harvest plus roughly 8 non-lands to turn it into a pseudo-tutor for some sort of combo win. That or some sort of "Oops, almost all spells" deck that only runs X copies of 1 land.

Now I eagerly await to be proven wrong because my personal track record for card evaluation is sketchy at best.

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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

Just imagine if that card were identical, but U instead of G. That tells you everything about the design space of card draw in the current WOTC philosophy.

In most cases, you either want a land or literally any other card in your deck, and this helps you do that. I guess "smoothing draws" would be a better term. But it just baffles me that green gets this, and blue can't get anything remotely as good for 1 mana. We got new 2+cmc cards for days (including a Preordain with weird upside, but that can't be cast with Snapcaster), but wow have the 1 mana cantrips been a dried up well for Blue. Maybe we'll get something in MH2?

It feels like every deck able to cast Abundant Harvest, should cut some split of 4 creatures/lands, and run 4 Harvests. Like, it's not Once Upon A Time busted, but it feels closer to OUAT than any legal blue 1 drop.

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
6 months ago
Maybe we'll get something in MH2?
I'm a little bit worried the set is going to be a "we put fetch lands in it, so it'll sell no matter what, so we can half ass the rest of the set now" along with a couple of the broken cards from Modern Horizon 1 that the set won't have some powerful answers. But one can hope :) I'm excited for the set. Basically the only thing in the coming months that I'm looking forward to. Everything else is %$#%.

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Post by drmarkb » 6 months ago

Take it from me- old borders are popular with my generation
First printings popular with any generation- has been this way before I was born.
Extendeds and all the shenigans- more of a mixed market, to say the least. When everything is special, nothing is special is the MTG finance mantra. Something a bit old fashioned looking in short supply has shown the way- an old border ponder, for example. All this new stuff is horse****. There is a reason why winter's Mishra's factory costs 200 times as much as a recent printing. Old sells. Rare sells. Firsts sell.


Be honest- price watch time- when extended art m21 foils are the same price as regular printings nearly, what does that say? We all feel a bit "meh" on some of the new innovations, some feel "meh" on all of them.

I think MH2 will be VERY expensive- all the rumours point to that from LGS owners on the finance sites,
Rumoured cards returning include some interesting things like counterspell (hurray), but I think you will see a set with some edh cards in, and fetches at R as confirmed means you should not be getting too many broken cards compared t last time. It will sell, and the answer cards will be "irritate for a turn or two" and not "can't use x" any more or "can't cast y". When the powerful hate abilities are printed, they will be on easily removed creatures that cost 2 or more likely 3. They want just enough answers to stop standard being broken, and can't hit even that as they are so scared of upsetting casual players, so what hope for MH2 and non rotating formats?

What they really need is a set of "anti commander" cards- the reverse of the commander fetchlands for non rotating formats. "If you have 1 opponent and 60 cards in your deck at the start, Smokestack/Stasis/Tangle wire/wasteland/strip mine your opponent's arse off so that they can't play magic for three or more turns and stop them doing their busted stuff forever". Never going to happen, and frankly Modern is going to become harder and harder to manage for them because of what they are printing.....

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Post by Albegas » 6 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
6 months ago
Just imagine if that card were identical, but U instead of G. That tells you everything about the design space of card draw in the current WOTC philosophy.

In most cases, you either want a land or literally any other card in your deck, and this helps you do that. I guess "smoothing draws" would be a better term. But it just baffles me that green gets this, and blue can't get anything remotely as good for 1 mana. We got new 2+cmc cards for days (including a Preordain with weird upside, but that can't be cast with Snapcaster), but wow have the 1 mana cantrips been a dried up well for Blue. Maybe we'll get something in MH2?

It feels like every deck able to cast Abundant Harvest, should cut some split of 4 creatures/lands, and run 4 Harvests. Like, it's not Once Upon A Time busted, but it feels closer to OUAT than any legal blue 1 drop.
I have to disagree. The way you phrased it, "literally any other card" is a broad spectrum. Just looking at control decks alone, that covers field wipes, counter spells, spot removal, finishers, and cantrips. When playing Control, there are plenty of non-lands that I don't want depending on the situation. A counter doesn't solve what's on the board, counters nor removal help me push for game, a Planeswalker when my opponent has board presence that it can't overcome is meaningless, etc. In other words, depending on the situation, "cards you don't need" expand beyond just lands. I can definitely see this card being powerful in decks where nearly every non-land served similar or identical roles, but I've seen complaints for years that Control decks and other answer-oriented decks have answers that are too narrow, and Abundant Harvest doesn't really dig for what you need so much as it discards a fraction of what you don't need.

As I said before though, I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I can't really defend my arguments beyond my initial speculation.

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

I don't really know what else I would want from the set if they put Counterspell in it. I mean I would just call it a day right there hehe.
But what decks wouldn't want to run blue if it becomes modern legal hehe.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 6 months ago

What do people here think of Strixhaven in terms of Modern? Now that the full set is revealed?

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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

Albegas wrote:
6 months ago
As I said before though, I'm definitely open to being proven wrong, and I can't really defend my arguments beyond my initial speculation.
Haha, thats fair! :grin:

I'm just thinking how many times I keep a close 2-3 lander and NEVER draw a 3rd/4th, or when I already have like 7 lands in play and draw land after land on the top. It just feels like this is NEVER dead in ANY deck that can cast it. Whether it's what you specifically want, being able to choose land or nonland feels MASSIVE.

I think the only thing keeping it from OUAT territory is that it's not instant and not free.

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
6 months ago
What do people here think of Strixhaven in terms of Modern? Now that the full set is revealed?
Don't know if it's just me who's tired, old and bitter, but I have basically zero Modern interest in this set. I can only spot maybe two-three cards I'd put in a sideboard.
It's the classic with, on one hand it's nice there's a set that doesn't throw in a couple of broken cards, but it's also a little weak in terms of power level, so not much modern potential. Not too much to worry about though with Modern Horizons 2 on the horizon... ha... ha... ha....

I will say though, the set looks like it'll be pretty fun in limited (I only play sealed limited though. I hate draft)

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Post by LennX » 6 months ago

Simto wrote:
6 months ago
I don't really know what else I would want from the set if they put Counterspell in it. I mean I would just call it a day right there hehe.
But what decks wouldn't want to run blue if it becomes modern legal hehe.
A well known leaker with a proven track record has mentioned that Counterspell is in the set.

Source

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

LennX wrote:
6 months ago
Simto wrote:
6 months ago
I don't really know what else I would want from the set if they put Counterspell in it. I mean I would just call it a day right there hehe.
But what decks wouldn't want to run blue if it becomes modern legal hehe.
A well known leaker with a proven track record has mentioned that Counterspell is in the set.

Source
That's why I've mentioned Counterspell here and there hehe. One can only hope :)

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Post by cfusionpm » 6 months ago

Counterspell would be a lovely low bar addition that would make little difference in real-world, but WOTC will make a HUGE deal about it!

As pointed out, it would effectively replace Mana Leak and Logic Knot, while cards like Remand still have tempo value from drawing a card.

Logistically, Leak and Knot are basically Counterspell, while leaving specialty counters like Dovin's Veto or modal spells like Cryptic Command and Archmage's Charm untouched. The 1cmc stuff like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare and free spells like Force of Negation also remain unchanged.

Basically, it's a long-winded way to say its impact would be measurable, but definitely not big. It would be a welcome addition to supplant bad counterspells while not really disrupting the large suite of specialty counters.

So............ yay? I mean, at least the Mystical Archive versions don't look terrible. :grin: :party:

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Post by Simto » 6 months ago

Your thoughts regarding the impact sound pretty accurate when realistically thinking about it. All that said though, it will be insanely satisfying casting the actual Counterspell card in a control deck :)
I'm wondering if it will give a boost to decks like Mono Blue Tron and other pseudo control/tempo decks to make it more competitive. I know blue tron is kinda sorta more of a tempo style control deck (but sometimes it is more straight up control... and sometimes it's straight up tron. It shifts a lot). I just think blue tron is a cool deck because I'm a tron pleb hehe, so I hope something like that could give it a little boost.

I want the Japanese mystic archive versions because I'm a closet weeb, but I'll be tempted to use my old ass Counterspells I've had when I first played in school back in '98 lol... I still have them.

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Post by Aazadan » 6 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
6 months ago
Counterspell would be a lovely low bar addition that would make little difference in real-world, but WOTC will make a HUGE deal about it!
I suspect it would be a 2-3 of, not a 4 of.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cloud of Faeries just as I was with MH1. A similar card that costs 2 mana or less would also work. Basically a good Spellstutter Sprite enabler would instantly make Faeries a thing again and might open up some other deck options too combined with things like Lotus Field.

I also think putting Zuran Orb into the format could be an interesting albeit risky experiment.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 6 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
6 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
6 months ago
Counterspell would be a lovely low bar addition that would make little difference in real-world, but WOTC will make a HUGE deal about it!
I suspect it would be a 2-3 of, not a 4 of.
I know I'll be jamming 4 Counterspells in every list just because I want to play 4. We didn't come all of this way to play fewer than 4 Counterspells. :)

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 6 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
6 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
6 months ago
Counterspell would be a lovely low bar addition that would make little difference in real-world, but WOTC will make a HUGE deal about it!
I suspect it would be a 2-3 of, not a 4 of.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cloud of Faeries just as I was with MH1. A similar card that costs 2 mana or less would also work. Basically a good Spellstutter Sprite enabler would instantly make Faeries a thing again and might open up some other deck options too combined with things like Lotus Field.

I also think putting Zuran Orb into the format could be an interesting albeit risky experiment.
Shh you are supposed to be a secret faerie supporter! Dont summon the plague engineer players XD
Oh man yeah I would enjoy that +1 for turn 2 spellstutter sprite or Cycling faerie? AND counterspell? I mean you all know I have been looking for faeries to be viable for a while, and with the recent influx of good luck for bitterblossom players its a long time coming, but thats likely way too cute to actually do much in modern (please let me be wrong IMO). Much better than Faerie Seer though.

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Post by Mapccu » 6 months ago

I feel like so much of what made faeries unique has been eroded by other tribes (spirits) or just creature power in general (beefier dudes and more impactful immediate value). I'm not sure CoF would help solve all the issue, but I do agree it would make a dent and is a very safe card for that deck. No clue if it has other implications, but I doubt it. Free 1/1 w flying doesn't seem that earth shattering to me. That's not what I'm worried about from dredge.

Having counterspell would make Ux (doubtful Uxx could risk it as a 4 of) snap+hard counter without having to blow cryptic on t4. I think that's a big deal because it's a pivotal turn in modern usually and cryptic is just so good that having it up later can be a big deal.

Scenario: I'm on shadow 4 untapped mana with my own counter in hand looking at 4 open blue mana. If I jam a shadow I can pay for mana leak. If you cryptic then chances are I can counter it or strip your hand if you have to pitch a FoN to stop my counter. If you snap+leak I'm losing a turn of face but can still stop the leak. Now if you just straight open with counterspell I have to worry about what other 2cmc card you may have to follow up with. I fight for my shadow because it matters, but now I'm down more resources (more mana and more cards to advance my board), Ux follows up with draw, removal, or another counter. Then control gets to in tap and look around for another answer like land+snap+path with counterspell backup to my 1-2 open mana.

In a lot of situations it doesn't matter. A cheaper hard counter for low to the ground cmc decks like shadow/burn it does and will matter. I think that's fine, honestly and even healthy for the format.

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Post by Aazadan » 6 months ago

ThatStoryTeller wrote:
6 months ago
Shh you are supposed to be a secret faerie supporter! Dont summon the plague engineer players XD
Oh man yeah I would enjoy that +1 for turn 2 spellstutter sprite or Cycling faerie? AND counterspell? I mean you all know I have been looking for faeries to be viable for a while, and with the recent influx of good luck for bitterblossom players its a long time coming, but thats likely way too cute to actually do much in modern (please let me be wrong IMO). Much better than Faerie Seer though.
I was hoping for it with MH1 too. Not just as a SSS enabler, I honestly think it's a good card for the format. It's an efficient flash flier that could go into a wide range of decks besides just faeries.

I'm skeptical we see it or a similar card because that entire untap mechanic was broken, but I do think it would be a good addition.
Mapccu wrote:
6 months ago
I feel like so much of what made faeries unique has been eroded by other tribes (spirits) or just creature power in general (beefier dudes and more impactful immediate value). I'm not sure CoF would help solve all the issue, but I do agree it would make a dent and is a very safe card for that deck. No clue if it has other implications, but I doubt it. Free 1/1 w flying doesn't seem that earth shattering to me. That's not what I'm worried about from dredge.

Having counterspell would make Ux (doubtful Uxx could risk it as a 4 of) snap+hard counter without having to blow cryptic on t4. I think that's a big deal because it's a pivotal turn in modern usually and cryptic is just so good that having it up later can be a big deal.

Scenario: I'm on shadow 4 untapped mana with my own counter in hand looking at 4 open blue mana. If I jam a shadow I can pay for mana leak. If you cryptic then chances are I can counter it or strip your hand if you have to pitch a FoN to stop my counter. If you snap+leak I'm losing a turn of face but can still stop the leak. Now if you just straight open with counterspell I have to worry about what other 2cmc card you may have to follow up with. I fight for my shadow because it matters, but now I'm down more resources (more mana and more cards to advance my board), Ux follows up with draw, removal, or another counter. Then control gets to in tap and look around for another answer like land+snap+path with counterspell backup to my 1-2 open mana.

In a lot of situations it doesn't matter. A cheaper hard counter for low to the ground cmc decks like shadow/burn it does and will matter. I think that's fine, honestly and even healthy for the format.
This scenario effectively already exists though due to the presence of Mystical Dispute and Archmage Charm. Charm has removed a lot of the pressure for why a 2 mana counter is needed and you probably wouldn't ever consider cutting Charms to add Counterspells.

Mapccu wrote:
6 months ago
I feel like so much of what made faeries unique has been eroded by other tribes (spirits) or just creature power in general (beefier dudes and more impactful immediate value). I'm not sure CoF would help solve all the issue, but I do agree it would make a dent and is a very safe card for that deck. No clue if it has other implications, but I doubt it. Free 1/1 w flying doesn't seem that earth shattering to me. That's not what I'm worried about from dredge.
It's mana ramp in a non green color when paired with lands that tap for more than one mana and it can always cycle when dead. It's quite good. It's a card that can enable sequences like T2 counter into T3 blocker+JTMS in a UW deck.
Last edited by Aazadan 6 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mapccu » 6 months ago

Dispute is still a soft counter though, you can eventually hit a point where you can pay for it. I see what you're saying with charm, but then I'm inclined to double down on Ux instead of Uxx. 3 color decks can't hit charm consistently enough unless you heavily skew U.

As for CoF ramp. T1 land, t2 land have counter up, t3 is tap both lands to float, play bounce land to return a land, play CoF and you still have 3 mana. You guarantee 4 mana t4 if they can't interact with lands, but I don't see where CoF gets you there faster in modern. Unless I'm missing a 2+ mana land.

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Post by Aazadan » 6 months ago

There's currently decks out there playing 4 colors (Omnath decks), with Field of Ruin, that play 4x Charm.

It's kind of dumb actually, but Wrenn and Six is just that good as a color fixer. Triomes are really doing a lot for color fixing too.
As for CoF ramp. T1 land, t2 land have counter up, t3 is tap both lands to float, play bounce land to return a land, play CoF and you still have 3 mana. You guarantee 4 mana t4 if they can't interact with lands, but I don't see where CoF gets you there faster in modern. Unless I'm missing a 2+ mana land.
Oh, oops messed that up. It can get you a Teferi on T4 but not a Jace on 3. Requires Lotus Field as a 2+ mana land, but to be fair Lotus Field is quickly proving itself to be absolutely insane.

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