[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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robertleva
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Still too weak for me.
We need, as mentioned above, hate cards.
Removal is decent, it is just not what we need.
Cards saying 'we can't use planeswalkers' would be a start. Cursed Totem too.
How about this:

Walker Hatestone
2
Artifact

Planeswalker abilities cannot be activated unless it's controller pays 1.

---- OR ----

Magus of the Barbs
1RR
Creature - Wizard
2/2

Whenever a player taps a non basic land, deal 2 damage to that player.
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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@robertleva

I heard the apparition is being used even in legacy. Agreed on what you said on best of the O. Ring on body variants. For example, It turns tarmogoyf and that new demon into 2/2 vanilla - opponent need to possibly waste removal to get their 2/2 vanilla, is an added bonus.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Walker Hatestone
2
Artifact

Planeswalker abilities cannot be activated unless it's controller pays 1.
I don't think that's strong enough honestly. The existing hate hasn't scaled to the new power level, so costing needs to be adjusted a bit. For that it probably needs to make PW's cost 1 more to cast, and make them cost 1 to activate. Alternatively, make PW's lose an additional 1 loyalty each time they're activated, and maybe come in with 1 fewer counter.

Thus, a Liliana of the Veil would go from +1, -2, -6 starting at 3 to 0, -3, and -7 and starting at either 2 or 3. Something like Narset would go from -2 and 5 to -3 and 4. Ashiok from -1 and 5 to -2 and 4.

As a PW specific hate I think that's reasonable, and I think it's preferable to just hitting mana costs. As a more generic hate on activated abilities making things cost 1 is fine, though you still probably want to make them card types that all colors can interact with so the above hate would probably be better as an artifact creature or a regular creature inside of a color, white is obviously fitting.

Edit: Some other things that I think could be done for PW hate.
White - Tax/silence activations.
Blue - Mind control effects.
Black - Already has kill spells, doesn't need more.
Red - Stop them from gaining loyalty (same flavor as stopping lifegain).
Green - Fight, with the PW dealing damage equal to it's loyalty.

This would add several more ways to deal with them in each color beyond the current effects and all fit within a colors flavor.

There's more issues than this though, WAR walkers were a problem as was Oko, but lets not forget that other bans have had to happen due to creatures. PW's with persistent effects, like creatures with persistent effects are a good way to add interaction to the game that all colors can deal with, but that still requires that players can deal with the creatures themselves in an efficient manner and that part has been getting less and less efficient over time. This is where better removal can still come into play. Something like Uro puts you 6 life and 3 cards behind, almost by default, as does Omnath. When cards are providing that much value, there needs to be reactive ways to actually keep up.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Still too weak for me.
We need, as mentioned above, hate cards.
Removal is decent, it is just not what we need.
Cards saying 'we can't use planeswalkers' would be a start. Cursed Totem too.
How about this:

Walker Hatestone
2
Artifact

Planeswalker abilities cannot be activated unless it's controller pays 1.

---- OR ----

Magus of the Barbs
1RR
Creature - Wizard
2/2

Whenever a player taps a non basic land, deal 2 damage to that player.
I think a tax of one is not enough. Suppression field is there and hits land activations too, and it still does not do enough. Modern has no selection, so even if Null Rod for Walkers stopped them all, full stop, it would be a board card at best, and one that would not stop an Oko going loco, as it did in Modern and dtill does in Legacy. If walkers were Elspeth level a tax would be fine, but they are not, at least not of late.

I think the magus card is very good,maybe too good. If it went to press I would expect it to do one damage more likely. Creature based hate has the issue of being creature based,of course,.maybe it is perfect as it is.




In terms of main deck answers
I personally like
WW
Enchantment.
When <> enters the battlefield, each player names a card. That card cannot be played from hand if it is a planeswalker, enchantment or instant. Draw a card.

This won't remove the next Oko from the board, but if everyone is playing the same walker in 4 colour piles, it can be laid preemptively. 2cc to draw a card is a fair cost in Modern and bigger in older formats. It also allows the player on the receiving end to name something back, andis quite skill testing.

I also like a 2cc version that says 'players can't get emblems or counters' and cantrips.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I think the magus card is very good,maybe too good. If it went to press I would expect it to do one damage more likely. Creature based hate has the issue of being creature based,of course,.maybe it is perfect as it is.

I think that one is pretty much perfect. I would either do 1 damage for each mana spent, or 2 damage for each non basic mana spent.
In terms of main deck answers
I personally like
WW
Enchantment.
When <> enters the battlefield, each player names a card. That card cannot be played from hand if it is a planeswalker, enchantment or instant. Draw a card.
I think this is where we start running into problems, because two colors cannot answer it at all, a third color has a lot of trouble answering it after it resolves (since it shuts off the answer, probably Cryptic Command), and not everything should cantrip, that tends to lead to more unhealthy inclusion. One thing we do not need right now is more cantrips, too many powerful cards do that right now. Card draw is ok, but cantrips are not at the moment.

I would rather see them get things like pseudo cards like free 2/2 tokens.

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Post by DarthDrac » 1 year ago

If removal doesn't at least scry, if not draw a card, then you are often already behind removing a creature that essentially replaces itself or has an ability to recur. 1 for 1 is only okay, if that is actually the case, which it isn't with stuff like Uro or Omnath.

I'd like to see Wizards adopt a simple philosophy regarding planeswalkers, if it can remove a creature it can remove a walker, end of...

I feel enchantment based hate is more okay now that black is getting enchantment removal, but I'd still rather have a Torpor Orb for walkers than something in white...

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I think the magus card is very good,maybe too good. If it went to press I would expect it to do one damage more likely. Creature based hate has the issue of being creature based,of course,.maybe it is perfect as it is.

I think that one is pretty much perfect. I would either do 1 damage for each mana spent, or 2 damage for each non basic mana spent.
In terms of main deck answers
I personally like
WW
Enchantment.
When <> enters the battlefield, each player names a card. That card cannot be played from hand if it is a planeswalker, enchantment or instant. Draw a card.
I think this is where we start running into problems, because two colors cannot answer it at all, a third color has a lot of trouble answering it after it resolves (since it shuts off the answer, probably Cryptic Command), and not everything should cantrip, that tends to lead to more unhealthy inclusion. One thing we do not need right now is more cantrips, too many powerful cards do that right now. Card draw is ok, but cantrips are not at the moment.

I would rather see them get things like pseudo cards like free 2/2 tokens.
Not being able to answer a symmetrical card is very different to not being able to answer an asymmetrical card, especially when the card in question is potential card disadvantage for the caster- if the opponent does not draw the named card then it has done nothing, and it is 2cc to draw a card and maybe count to devotion or enchantment triggers or some such. Two cc draw is fair for me. If the opponent names a card back that you draw, then they have matched your card without spending a mana. If it were asymmetrical I would agree, but it either severely restricts your deck building or gives them a chance to get you back.


I don't think not being able to answer the card is an issue, thinking like that has lead to every colour dealing with creatures for a while now., and I feel mtg is better when some things can't be dealt with,as long as they are not game winning.
Obviously black can now answer it due to feed the swarm, but even if no colour could answer it, I don't see the problem- red not being able to cast bolts that they may not draw is not back breaking. What is back breaking is when a scapeshift deck can not cast its signature card, but that is exactly the point about cards like Nevermore- they stop that sort of narrow stuff, and that is why we need more of them. Without card draw you can't include cards like that main deck, and that is what we need more of. You could try cycling on it I guess.
I agree about cantrips being an issue, and am still waiting for a chains of mephistopheles that is not a critter. I feel I will wait for a long time, but the biggest issue Modern has is normally linear decks, and not enough ways to stop them, or broken permanents that are in every list.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
@robertleva

I heard the apparition is being used even in legacy. Agreed on what you said on best of the O. Ring on body variants. For example, It turns tarmogoyf and that new demon into 2/2 vanilla - opponent need to possibly waste removal to get their 2/2 vanilla, is an added bonus.
Apparition is used in Legacy d n t lists, 3 copies or so in the 75, but there is a reason- it, Council's judgement is no longer in the 75, due to TNN being out of favour. Pre MH1 TNN was everywhere, now Plague Engineer is ubiquitous TNN is like hen's teeth, so d n t can include apparition in the 75 and dial back CJ, which was a 2 of. Apparition is normally main decked, so some juggling has gone on, but prelate has had a trim due to Oko being everywhere. So yes, apparition has had some play in d n t in Legacy, but there are other factors at work. Had tnn been about and Oko not so prevalent, it likely would have been a one of at most.

Pioneer will certainly use it, but I can not see it making great waves in Modern, although it is a good card in itself, it's not the 'fantastic answer' it is proclaimed in some quarters that will resurrect d n t and make it top tier. Very playable and better than O ring in any creature heavy strategy, a welcome addition.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

What do people think about modal double-face cards so far in Modern. A quick check of MTGGoldfish showed one copy of some of the following in example decks Agadeem's Awakening (Rakdos Death's Shadow), Sea Gate Restoration (Azorious Control), Kazandu Mammoth(WG), and Turntimber Symbiosis(WG). So it looks like at least some of them might be somewhat playable. I don't see any of the pathway lands, probably thanks to plenty of great existing come in untapped duals.

Is this a positive for land ratios and reducing draw problems even with the small amounts playable? Do you think we'll get more modern playable ones in upcoming sets this year (since it sounds like we'll keep getting modal double-face cards in the next two or three sets)? How much of an impact do you think they are having for the decks they work in, despite the small numbers played?

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

haven't checked yet the rules wiki. Honestly, I don't know how to use the new double faced cards.
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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
What do people think about modal double-face cards so far in Modern.
Oops all spells? They use a mere 12-16 of the lands. See linked SCG article in a recent post a bit higher up.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

Amulet now plays at least 2 Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood as stock, often 3 copies. It's even played in Karn builds.

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Anyone still actively playing Modern? How things look?

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Post by pierreb » 11 months ago

Not me. It doesn't help that most of new cards entering modern are mythic, AKA expensive: the modal lands, the new 20/20 demon, omnath, titans...

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Post by Simto » 11 months ago

I would if I had money.
My LGS (part of the biggest chain of stores of that type in Denmark) just announced there will be no more in store gaming for the rest of the year. I wasn't going to the store to play anyway because I'm around high risk individuals every day, but still... Going to be a while before I get to play properly again.
Don't have money for paper and mtgo at the same time.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Anyone still actively playing Modern? How things look?
Paper hasn't started and has no sign of doing so in the near future. I live in San Bernardino County, California and recently, (neighboring county) Riverside County was in the Red, which means a less restrictive Covid situation. I went to the gym for 3 weeks and it was some of the most fun I've had recently. Sadly enough, that's over, as Riverside County is now in the Purple (most restrictive situation for Covid) again. I am more sad of this than anything else.

As for Magic, I just let the Secret Lairs milk me, as I order each and every one of them (like a dummy; I know). Other than that, I haven't even had time to play at a friend's house, where some friends gather to play. I'm seriously losing interest in Magic and if it's going to always be super restrictive, I'll just sell out completely. I was able to sell a bunch of eternal stuff for a lot of moolah, but the remaining stuff could get me into affording a super car territory, so that is very tempting.

I'm pretty sure that if I do that, Magic will come back with a vengeance and I will pay double just to get my cards back, lol. :cussing:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Amalgam » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Anyone still actively playing Modern? How things look?
Paper magic is pretty much dead this side of the world outside EDH. No standard/modern/pioneer/legacy pretty much at all

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Post by The Fluff » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Anyone still actively playing Modern? How things look?
actively playing. Excited actually.. a batch of cards that I ordered from scg recently arrived. Mono red prowess is now complete.

although just casually for now..

all paper events are stopped. Corona is still strong in my country.. the brother of my mom's friend died recently..
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

Paper is dead here too. We managed a month or so, where Legacy fired at 24 player event, and Standard/draft/Pioneer in the other weeks in the month
Since then, Corona II lockdown......it will be a long time yet before paper returns.


Modern was pretty dead beforehand, though.
No longer FNM in my city or, indeed, the next, where it was relegated to Thursdays. To go from most popular format to unplayed in my city in three years was quite impressive. I feel it will still lurk, but people have no interest in the meta. None. People play their established archetypes. So one person may own Tron, and will always play it. Another burn, another Storm etc. The idea of people playing Modern and getting in on the best deck only exists in the next city, and it was dying there. Why pay for a deck that gets busted by bans or the next nuts and card values change dramatically when you can by cEDH RL staples or Legacy RL staples for the same cost and know your money is pretty safe whilst still playing?

Also, and this is notable, very few want to play creature decks here in my city. I mean sure there will be a few Prime Times beating down, but it is plan B in a Valakut plan. In the next city along it is different, but here, if you want to play creatures Standard exists and there are players playing it in decent but small numbers, Pioneer in smaller ones, but again where a lot of decks are combat related. So you can rock up at an event here and play a sub optimal modern Modern that feels like a very powered down Legacy meta rather than a true Modern meta. When people have bought into the top deck they have not done that well- I saw players buy into phoenix when it was big, and then keel over to jank like Storm or my own enchantment control or landkill shenanigans, same with Dredge, Amulet, Urza and Death's shadow in their time etc. Whilst the look on a dredge player's face when they get hit by maindeck RIP is priceless, ditto the Amulet player beaten by the Blood Moon, the Death's shadow player meeting soul.sisters, etc. it is not really Modern. Lots of money to enter local FNMs and not even prize often with a top deck that then gets banned or nerfed a couple of months down the line? Not cool. Big Modern events happen, but they are less store based - 30 to 50 player store events are just not Modern's ground anymore, they used to be and made it worth owning top decks. It is all very well casting Uro for value, say, but when more than half of the local mini meta in a ten player event is ignoring the attack step one way or another what is the point? Most of the decks people play have linear game plans, and they all have Modern as, at best, their 'third favourite format' for which they have one or two decks.....


Competitive mtg here has to an extent been subsumed by EDH, online EDH is keeping that going too. In the next city EDH is less prevalent, it is everyones' 'I have one deck' format, but the most popular formats are never Modern, and have not been for a while. Even I have a (hugely expensive) Canlander deck, which is competitive one v one commander without the commander. You can certainly jam against commander players if you have an hour spare and they can pick one of their ten EDH decks that can match up well, even if they may play an over pointed list. I hate multiplayer, but 100 card singleton is entrenched, and Canlander competitive format at least, can be tapped into easily by our resident EDHers.

I think there were many grinding Modern events sustaining a format not enough people liked, and pre covid, it was dying as a serious paper format. Large 500 player events will still attract those heavily invested, but they will have to travel and eat large entry costs. Our lifeblood-weekend events that colonised chunks of the stores- was dying. As an online format it will thrive as popular and relatively cheap, and I am sure it will stay alive online regardless.

Mtg in paper was dying as a competitive endeavour to an extent, Modern is no different. For those who love competitive mtg in person there are many options, Modern is one and if you are lucky in your area then great, but I feel the community is not behind Modern, and it never was. It was a bunch of disparate players thrown together who wanted different things, now the formats have opened up, a process accelerated by the need for online play, the genie is out of the bottle. When and if covid subsides, Modern will be the premier Mtgo format, but not a premier paper format. Mh2 will mean that it won't go away in the short term but it will be more casual in the longer term.

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Post by Ed06288 » 11 months ago

i play on saturdays in 6 man tournaments. entry fee is a booster pack. decks are fairly competitive. attendance is down from the summer though.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
11 months ago
i play on saturdays in 6 man tournaments. entry fee is a booster pack. decks are fairly competitive. attendance is down from the summer though.
I did that just yesterday at a friend's house. We had 6 people who paid $5 each. First got $20 and 2nd got $10. In this case, 2 players were 3-2, so they split $10 or got their entry fee back. It was fun!
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Simto » 11 months ago

Does there really need to be prizes or money involved when it's small/private events? I mean it's up to everyone, but I couldn't care less about prizes or whatever. I just want to play.

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Post by robertleva » 11 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Anyone still actively playing Modern? How things look?
Paper hasn't started and has no sign of doing so in the near future. I live in San Bernardino County, California and recently, (neighboring county) Riverside County was in the Red, which means a less restrictive Covid situation. I went to the gym for 3 weeks and it was some of the most fun I've had recently. Sadly enough, that's over, as Riverside County is now in the Purple (most restrictive situation for Covid) again. I am more sad of this than anything else.

As for Magic, I just let the Secret Lairs milk me, as I order each and every one of them (like a dummy; I know). Other than that, I haven't even had time to play at a friend's house, where some friends gather to play. I'm seriously losing interest in Magic and if it's going to always be super restrictive, I'll just sell out completely. I was able to sell a bunch of eternal stuff for a lot of moolah, but the remaining stuff could get me into affording a super car territory, so that is very tempting.

I'm pretty sure that if I do that, Magic will come back with a vengeance and I will pay double just to get my cards back, lol. :cussing:
Do yourself a favor. keep your paper cards, you will regret not keeping them even if paper never comes back. Do this though: buy ONE DECK in MTGO. Just one deck, even a cheap one, any format you enjoy and play it. Play a few games and see how you feel about it.
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

X mage is free, too.
Worth a shot if you have friends to play with.
Best used with a live video call.......

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Post by robertleva » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
X mage is free, too.
Worth a shot if you have friends to play with.
Best used with a live video call.......
I actually don't recommend this. If you are willing to play the game digitally please do it the right way, you will be glad you did. MTGO is very accessible and you can get tons of amazing decks for pennies. Build up a collection over time, it's very worth the investment, especially when you can actually use your cards in official tourneys 24/7.
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