[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
The Secret Lair thing has me really nervous though, and it goes directly against what Wizards claimed they would do with them when they first started.
What do you mean?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
What do you mean?
Their new crossover Secret Lair is brand new, Eternal format legal cards, that are mechanically unique (mechanics, names, stats, etc). Making matters more problematic is that due to the crossover branding they're also going to be incredibly problematic to reprint, as they're not doing the subname thing they did for all the Godzilla cards, and the cards themselves mechanically reference Walking Dead IP, so it's an issue beyond just naming.

Originally, when they announced what Secret Lairs would contain, it was to be promos of cards they thought would sell, or that they needed to reprint when they couldn't fit them into other sets. Instead they're now directly printing brand new cards in them which are Vintage/Legacy/EDH legal.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
What do you mean?
Their new crossover Secret Lair is brand new, Eternal format legal cards, that are mechanically unique (mechanics, names, stats, etc). Making matters more problematic is that due to the crossover branding they're also going to be incredibly problematic to reprint, as they're not doing the subname thing they did for all the Godzilla cards, and the cards themselves mechanically reference Walking Dead IP, so it's an issue beyond just naming.

Originally, when they announced what Secret Lairs would contain, it was to be promos of cards they thought would sell, or that they needed to reprint when they couldn't fit them into other sets. Instead they're now directly printing brand new cards in them which are Vintage/Legacy/EDH legal.
Forgive me if I'm overlooking something, but are any of those newer cards actually problems yet?

(osrry, took me a bit to reply, as my friend called for advice when someone hit and ran an accident on him)
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive me if I'm overlooking something, but are any of those newer cards actually problems yet?

(osrry, took me a bit to reply, as my friend called for advice when someone hit and ran an accident on him)

Only 2 of the 4 have been spoiled so far (plus a token), and at first glance neither appears problematic. Even if nothing in this specific set is problematic though, it's a really concerning precedent to set that they're doing brand new black border cards in Secret Lairs.

Also, more problematic is WotC just announced that if they need to reprint it, it would essentially be a functional reprint. Meaning that if you need up to 8 in them in constructed (extremely unlikely) or 2 in EDH (much more likely), it wouldn't do much to alleviate the demand. So, it's essentially printed direct to the Reserved List.
Last edited by Aazadan 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive me if I'm overlooking something, but are any of those newer cards actually problems yet?

(osrry, took me a bit to reply, as my friend called for advice when someone hit and ran an accident on him)

Only 2 of the 4 have been spoiled so far (plus a token), and at first glance neither appears problematic. Even if nothing in this specific set is problematic though, it's a really concerning precedent to set that they're doing brand new black border cards in Secret Lairs.
Do you have a link of the cards?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Forgive me if I'm overlooking something, but are any of those newer cards actually problems yet?

(osrry, took me a bit to reply, as my friend called for advice when someone hit and ran an accident on him)

Only 2 of the 4 have been spoiled so far (plus a token), and at first glance neither appears problematic. Even if nothing in this specific set is problematic though, it's a really concerning precedent to set that they're doing brand new black border cards in Secret Lairs.
Do you have a link of the cards?
https://preview.redd.it/7ns7txlhlwp51.j ... b1e45d2a4b

https://gamespot1.cbsistatic.com/upload ... 281%29.png

Their article gives some other accounts to follow for the others, I'm sure word of them will get around when they go up. See my edit above too on WotC's tweet about reprints if necessary.

So, back to my previous point. I'm glad Modern is immune to this nonsense, for now.

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Post by BeneTleilax » 1 year ago

They've done similar things before, like the MLP crossover cards, but they've always been silver border. I am reminded of when they first revealed unique buy-a-box cards, claiming "The goal was to give something cool to casual and Commander players" https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2018-05-18. Nexus of Fate was less than a year later.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Correct, silver border is considerably different though as those aren't legal by default.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
The only reason Uro is not gone here yet is we don't have a spotlight on our format. There is no meaningful competitive stage, and effectively zero paper support right now.

Maybe if Uros dip deep enough in price, might be worth picking up, but I wouldn't do it with any degree of confidence I could even play them once paper play returns normally.
It's possible. It's also possible that Uro is only remaining on top due to a lack of a spotlight and people aren't innovating anything to really fight the meta, rather sticking with Uro as it's easy.

The Secret Lair thing has me really nervous though, and it goes directly against what Wizards claimed they would do with them when they first started.
Iduno. I don't think we're at Phoenix/Dredge/Hogaak levels of GY hate, but I've seen a number of main deck GY hate for any deck that can cast it. Stuff like Cling to Dust and Spellbomb/Relic. Also seeing more RIPs and Surgicals in boards. People are absolutely fighting Uro, and it may not be good enough. Stablizing life, drawing cards, and ramping mana on a 6/6 body that needs to be exiled to deal with? Belive me, I would love nothing more than to drop several hundred dollars on a playset of the extended art foils, but I have virtually no confidence in actually being able to play with them in the coming year.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Uro is really, really good, there's no question about it. I'm just not sure if the format is working enough to fight it.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

How does one "fight" Uro piles? Besides maindeck GY hate and Exile removal?

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one "fight" Uro piles? Besides maindeck GY hate and Exile removal?
Syncopate? Meddling Mage? Your own Uro pile :P ?

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one "fight" Uro piles? Besides maindeck GY hate and Exile removal?
Syncopate? Meddling Mage? Your own Uro pile :P ?
Rxx Prowess/Combo (Oops All Spells - Ad Nauseam - Titan)/ Death's Shadow + Scourge)/ RB Aggro.

Don't forget, Uro piles are Ramp/Control decks that trade I-Win-Cards for control and inevitability, so the usual strategies are good against them. Prowess/RB Aggro can just ram through 3 or 6 extra points easily.

Uro is broken, but it's not oppressive (for Modern at least :P ), but the format is adjusting to it and has introduced mostly Midrange-Control lists that were having problems historically. Cling's a fine card to be maindecking, it almost never is a dead card. Similar to Nihil Spellbomb, Ds and Urza (lol) decks have utilized it. The former because it hit random GY synergies and cycled, while the former uses it as a silver bullet - whatever's left of it anyway.

Tron seems to have gotten the short end of the stick, with Cleansing Wildfire being a better solution for many decks.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one "fight" Uro piles? Besides maindeck GY hate and Exile removal?
Syncopate? Meddling Mage? Your own Uro pile :P ?
You joke but Syncopate is actually a really interesting idea and I'm gonna try some in my Uro pile :P

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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one "fight" Uro piles? Besides maindeck GY hate and Exile removal?

I saw a joke Naya zoo(?) deck playing Zo-Zu the Punisher and Tunnel Ignus while using Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter and Old-Growth Dryads to spam multiple lands all while praying on the Uro decks. Does this seem viable outside a fun blackhorse deck? Probably not but I chuckled when I watched a friend pilot it to 4/1.
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Post by Mikefon » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago

Their new crossover Secret Lair is brand new, Eternal format legal cards, that are mechanically unique (mechanics, names, stats, etc). Making matters more problematic is that due to the crossover branding they're also going to be incredibly problematic to reprint, as they're not doing the subname thing they did for all the Godzilla cards, and the cards themselves mechanically reference Walking Dead IP, so it's an issue beyond just naming.

Originally, when they announced what Secret Lairs would contain, it was to be promos of cards they thought would sell, or that they needed to reprint when they couldn't fit them into other sets. Instead they're now directly printing brand new cards in them which are Vintage/Legacy/EDH legal.
About this issue: MaRo just said that they could reprint them and consider this as the godzilla cards. The eventual reprints won't be the copies 5-8, but these actual cards.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/6 ... me-answers

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

I'd like to quickly revisit some "controversial" cards that have been in the format now for a while (completely ignoring the Oops All Spells deck looming over us all because I happen to believe once people get their bearings, the deck will settle in a similar spot to Neobrand, aka borderline Oblivion. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my feeling).

This is prompted by a lot of coverage of streamers on Twitch and Youtube I've watched recently. And 2 games in a row I saw yesterday on FpawluszMTG's channel really put me off.

In this video

starting at 36:42, there are 2 matches, the first an Amulet Titan Mirror, the second one Amulet Titan vs 4c Omnath Uro pile.

Especially the second match is just painful to watch. It's just Field of the Dead vs Field of the Dead. Who gets more activations, more Field-Triggers and more zombies wins. Nothing else matters. Titan player gets 10 tokens, Omnath pile player gets 12 tokens and life. Its a tide of zombie tokens surging on this then the other side, and whoever makes more land drops wins.

These games are fundamentally messed up. Omnath is on the power level of Urza, and Urza decks had several pieces banned over the last couple months.

My spontaneous reaction to these matches (and the build up to them by seeing countless games being decided by Field and Field alone) is that Field of the Dead needs to go urgently.

Amulet Titan decks have multiple other ways to win they didn't have in the past, but Field especially is an almost impossible to interact with "oops I win" button.

For 3-4c Uro / Scapeshift / Omnath / Whathaveyou decks, getting Field online is way too trivial.

There are other decks that have gotten power boosts with the latest set. Rakdos Prowess with Scourge is a scary deck, mill is actually a good deck now, but what these Omnath/Uro piles are doing with Field of the Dead is another kind of outlandish in my opinion.

I'll for now ommit the general problem that Value Engines that also gain life pose in modern (Uro, Omnath). A card shouldn't be simultaneously a bomb vs aggro through life gain and a value engine that can outgrind dedicated midrange/control decks. Kroxa is very good, but it won't save you vs aggro. Uro and Omnath will.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I ran into someone playing Virulent Plague the other day. I felt personally attacked. It also says a lot that such a narrow, 3 mana card, would even remotely see play (sideboard or not) other than to be utterly backbreaking to Field decks. :sick:

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Mikefon wrote:
1 year ago
About this issue: MaRo just said that they could reprint them and consider this as the godzilla cards. The eventual reprints won't be the copies 5-8, but these actual cards.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/6 ... me-answers
I saw that, this is an important distinction that I think makes this a lot less bad.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Mikefon wrote:
1 year ago
About this issue: MaRo just said that they could reprint them and consider this as the godzilla cards. The eventual reprints won't be the copies 5-8, but these actual cards.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/6 ... me-answers
I saw that, this is an important distinction that I think makes this a lot less bad.
Just seems like such a self-inflicted, unforced error either way.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

wow these secret lair cards are ugly. look like bad fan cards from salvation.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Mikefon wrote:
1 year ago
About this issue: MaRo just said that they could reprint them and consider this as the godzilla cards. The eventual reprints won't be the copies 5-8, but these actual cards.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/6 ... me-answers
I saw that, this is an important distinction that I think makes this a lot less bad.
They should have done that from the start. But at this point is just backpedaling from negative PR. I can't blame the commander quarters guy from promoting a launch of a commander clone format called Captain, where the unique Dead crossover cards are preemptively banned.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

I don't see the issue with backpedaling, it means they listened to their customers.

Edit: This does make me think though. At some point if they release cards like this they're going to want them in Modern, or Pioneer, or whatever their non rotating format of choice is at that point in order to increase demand for the cards. And they didn't actually backtrack on printing them, only in assuring people that they could print the card in another form later. I'm not sure how long it will be until Modern isn't immune to this nonsense.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Modern benefits by not being eternal, in the eyes of WOTC, and probably won't be affected by any SL with mechanically unique cards ever. We get MH2 to screw our format over, and I can't wait for 200 dollars VIP collector boosters with the two mana hex proof uncountable green blue Jace in 108 different arts, especially the a 1 in a thousand stained glass foil pringle Japanese pull from box toppers made on Tuesdays....../s

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

It's ironic, compared to how frustrated I've been with magic as a whole lately, Modern actually looks really good. I was worried about Omnath making Uro piles too good but it has seemed to be powerful but fine. The new Scourge decks are also a good thing if you ask me, they're very skillful and interactive. The brief panic about Belcher decks has died down, and what do you know it Skyclave Apparation actually makes DnT look quite reasonable.

Who knows how things change, but for now I'd say ZNR is the first set in a long while that, all in all, positively influenced Modern

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