[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Bearscape
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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

I *hope* Confounding Conondrum doesn't take off because it is incredibly obnoxious. Other than that, the new lands seem very cool but not broken, and I'm curious to see where the cmc2 Death Shadow goes.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
I *hope* Confounding Conondrum doesn't take off because it is incredibly obnoxious.
I don't know, maybe I am wrong about this one, but there seems to be a lot of ways to play around this card. Especially decks that don't really care about having 2-3 lands on the battlefield they can still play on curve the turn this hits the battlefield and it will only be a nuisance later on. Like, if you are on the draw and play Conundrum on T2, your opponent can still be on 3 mana in her turn, even with a fetchland (tap land for mana and then return it), yes they are a landdrop behind but a lot of decks can easily deal with that.

For decks that want to ramp, they don't always play two lands in a turn, they can get their "second" land on your turn, with Sakura tribe elder for example. It is a bit of a nuisance to play around it, sure, but it is definitely not game breaking. Even against Titan decks, sometimes it is enough to just get the land on the battlefield to tap it for that turn only, because they would bounce it anyway. So yeah, I am not sure if it take off. Again, I might be assessing this thing wrong and the play patterns that it causes might be strong enough, but as it stands, I don't see how this will be any good.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
I *hope* Confounding Conondrum doesn't take off because it is incredibly obnoxious.
I don't know, maybe I am wrong about this one, but there seems to be a lot of ways to play around this card. Especially decks that don't really care about having 2-3 lands on the battlefield they can still play on curve the turn this hits the battlefield and it will only be a nuisance later on. Like, if you are on the draw and play Conundrum on T2, your opponent can still be on 3 mana in her turn, even with a fetchland (tap land for mana and then return it), yes they are a landdrop behind but a lot of decks can easily deal with that.

For decks that want to ramp, they don't always play two lands in a turn, they can get their "second" land on your turn, with Sakura tribe elder for example. It is a bit of a nuisance to play around it, sure, but it is definitely not game breaking. Even against Titan decks, sometimes it is enough to just get the land on the battlefield to tap it for that turn only, because they would bounce it anyway. So yeah, I am not sure if it take off. Again, I might be assessing this thing wrong and the play patterns that it causes might be strong enough, but as it stands, I don't see how this will be any good.
It stutter-steps their development to not be able to crack a fetch the turn it drops. I see CC being used broadly to combat fetch heavy metas at low investment. The fact that it silver bullets a number of obnoxious strategies is bonus.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
I *hope* Confounding Conondrum doesn't take off because it is incredibly obnoxious.
I don't know, maybe I am wrong about this one, but there seems to be a lot of ways to play around this card. Especially decks that don't really care about having 2-3 lands on the battlefield they can still play on curve the turn this hits the battlefield and it will only be a nuisance later on. Like, if you are on the draw and play Conundrum on T2, your opponent can still be on 3 mana in her turn, even with a fetchland (tap land for mana and then return it), yes they are a landdrop behind but a lot of decks can easily deal with that.

For decks that want to ramp, they don't always play two lands in a turn, they can get their "second" land on your turn, with Sakura tribe elder for example. It is a bit of a nuisance to play around it, sure, but it is definitely not game breaking. Even against Titan decks, sometimes it is enough to just get the land on the battlefield to tap it for that turn only, because they would bounce it anyway. So yeah, I am not sure if it take off. Again, I might be assessing this thing wrong and the play patterns that it causes might be strong enough, but as it stands, I don't see how this will be any good.
It's a good card. It's not going to completely shut a deck down (well, most decks) but it is going to seriously slow them down. That it works against fetches and not just things like Titan and Asuza makes it broad enough to see play. And at a floor of being a 2 mana cantrip it's probably pretty good and with few situations where it can backfire such as Mystic Sanctuary being a particularly troublesome one to bounce.

It also has one hell of an interaction when paired with cards like Brazen Borrower and Field of Ruin. Creates a real screwed no matter what they do situation. If they crack the land, you bounce what they play or Field them and they bounce a land. Or they don't and you get something on the board.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

is Bloodchief's thirst good enough for modern?

it could kill any cmc creature and also planeswalker once enough mana is available.
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
is Bloodchief's thirst good enough for modern?

it could kill any size creature and also planeswalker once enough mana is available.
I'd guess it is, if in very small numbers thanks to it's flexibility, but held back by being sorcery speed. It'd be hurt if less 2 or less cmc threats it can hit turn up in a meta and it's forced to rely more on it's kicker mode more, in which case there are better options and the flexibility of also having the small mode is less useful. I suspect it would see no more than 1 or 2 copies in a 75, and even then, many of those might be focused in the sideboard, there mostly to shore up limited sideboard slots with flexible answers (both in terms of mana and what they can hit on the higher end) rather than being the best answer against certain decks.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

I don't think so. If it were instant at those costs it would be playable, but sorcery is going to hurt it quite a bit. See Dreadbore, also barely playable as a straight 2 mana kill creature or planeswalker sorcery.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Iirc Mana breach used to bounce lands when spells got played, it was never a huge drawback.back then. Conundrum seems about right. My feeling is that in Modern and Legacy this card is fine. Bouncing your own lands can always be broken, but bouncing opponent's lands in this way will be fine in the way suppression field is fine.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
Iirc Mana breach used to bounce lands when spells got played, it was never a huge drawback.back then. Conundrum seems about right. My feeling is that in Modern and Legacy this card is fine. Bouncing your own lands can always be broken, but bouncing opponent's lands in this way will be fine in the way suppression field is fine.
It feels like there's plenty of ways to play around this, several fun synergies too such as Path to Exile, fetchlands, Field of Ruin, Assassin's Trophy, Uro, and so on. The card seems good and impactful but at the moment it doesn't seem format warping.

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Post by Guardman » 1 year ago

Confounding Conundrum seems pretty strong, especially in multiples. If you build your deck around it right, then not only does cards like Ghost Quarter, Field of Ruin, and Path to Exile not really have a drawback, but could even have upside if have multiple copies of Confounding Conundrum.

Imagine if you have two Confounding Conundrum out and your opponent plays a land and a creature. If you path that creature, they actually go down a land since they need to return two lands now. Then if you Field of Ruin them, that is another two lands they need to return to their hands, and all of a sudden they are down three lands on board.

Is that good enough? Don't know. Probably not. But I think it is something to keep in mind.

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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

It's nigh impossible to have multiple conundrum before turn 3. Even then, all you've done is turn your LD into wasteland. You're using deck slots for a strategy that doesn't actually win any game by itself. Your opponent will not play multiple lands per turn to help you and can elect not to find lands after path and others.

Then, decks like red aggro and humans just shrugs you off. So, no, even in multiples, it won't get played unless I'm overlooking something.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

It is a solid role player, not a strategy in itself. It replaces itself, and is a minor spike in the wheel that makes some cards like Path or GQ into better cards, but you are working hard for it.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
1 year ago
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
is Bloodchief's thirst good enough for modern?

it could kill any size creature and also planeswalker once enough mana is available.
I'd guess it is, if in very small numbers thanks to it's flexibility, but held back by being sorcery speed. It'd be hurt if less 2 or less cmc threats it can hit turn up in a meta and it's forced to rely more on it's kicker mode more, in which case there are better options and the flexibility of also having the small mode is less useful. I suspect it would see no more than 1 or 2 copies in a 75, and even then, many of those might be focused in the sideboard, there mostly to shore up limited sideboard slots with flexible answers (both in terms of mana and what they can hit on the higher end) rather than being the best answer against certain decks.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
I don't think so. If it were instant at those costs it would be playable, but sorcery is going to hurt it quite a bit. See Dreadbore, also barely playable as a straight 2 mana kill creature or planeswalker sorcery.
thanks. Did not realize it is only sorcery speed. Not as good as I had hoped. Removing most of them from my scg cart.. only going to get 1 copy.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
is Bloodchief's thirst good enough for modern?

it could kill any cmc creature and also planeswalker once enough mana is available.
8Rack likes it to fight of w6 which can be a show stopper for us.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
It's nigh impossible to have multiple conundrum before turn 3. Even then, all you've done is turn your LD into wasteland. You're using deck slots for a strategy that doesn't actually win any game by itself. Your opponent will not play multiple lands per turn to help you and can elect not to find lands after path and others.

Then, decks like red aggro and humans just shrugs you off. So, no, even in multiples, it won't get played unless I'm overlooking something.
I agree. I will be starting off my testing with a straight up replacement of my 2x copies of Search for Azcanta in my UW deck. I think it may perform pretty well in that slot. I can bounce it with t3feri and get the cantrip again - nice.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Seems like Uro piles are all moving towards Field of the Dead. Bant, Sultai, and Temur flavors around the same core. Feels very powerful in both Sultai and Bant and in just about any configuration (control-heavy, ramp-heavy, PW-heavy, etc). The introduction of Hour of Promise or Primeval Titan makes it even more interesting. I'd love to try Temur too, but tough to shell out the cash for W6s.

Either way, I don't know how strongly I feel about buying any of these in paper. I could imagine with the spotlight back on Modern at some point in the near future would spell doom for our Simic Titan overlord.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like Uro piles are all moving towards Field of the Dead. Bant, Sultai, and Temur flavors around the same core. Feels very powerful in both Sultai and Bant and in just about any configuration (control-heavy, ramp-heavy, PW-heavy, etc). The introduction of Hour of Promise or Primeval Titan makes it even more interesting. I'd love to try Temur too, but tough to shell out the cash for W6s.

Either way, I don't know how strongly I feel about buying any of these in paper. I could imagine with the spotlight back on Modern at some point in the near future would spell doom for our Simic Titan overlord.
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My 1 loss was to the Bant Uro Field deck, aka Kanister's Bant from a few weeks ago. It was a very strong deck. Slight stumbles by me made sure I had no chance, although I should have told him about a Cryptic Command ruling earlier (which cost me tying 1-1). Still wouldn't have had time for Game 3. While it's kind of cool that these decks make Fact or Fiction an amazing card, they are fairly oppressive.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Seems like Uro piles are all moving towards Field of the Dead. Bant, Sultai, and Temur flavors around the same core. Feels very powerful in both Sultai and Bant and in just about any configuration (control-heavy, ramp-heavy, PW-heavy, etc). The introduction of Hour of Promise or Primeval Titan makes it even more interesting. I'd love to try Temur too, but tough to shell out the cash for W6s.

Either way, I don't know how strongly I feel about buying any of these in paper. I could imagine with the spotlight back on Modern at some point in the near future would spell doom for our Simic Titan overlord.
I feel like W6 is a safe buy at this point. I've got regular Uro's never shelled out for the extended arts (which I typically do for my cards these days, if they're available. Don't feel comfortable in upgrading my set. I think the best Uro deck is going to be in pure green/blue though, and that it's not currently in the meta.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like W6 is a safe buy at this point. I've got regular Uro's never shelled out for the extended arts (which I typically do for my cards these days, if they're available. Don't feel comfortable in upgrading my set. I think the best Uro deck is going to be in pure green/blue though, and that it's not currently in the meta.
I mean maybe, but I'm not super jazzed about Temur in the first place, and W6s are still $60 a piece in both paper and online (don't own either). I have everything for Bant/Sultai Uro online, but only a single Uro in paper (use in Commander).

Sultai has amazing tools in Push, Cling, Trophy, and Decay. Bant has amazing tools in Path, T3feri, and bonkers SB cards. Temur has W6, that new GR God, bolts, and stuff. Each of them offers something great with regards to interaction and answers, and notably things NOT available in straight UG.

But I think either way, we're back to "Well Uro is the best thing. Which Uro shell is best Uro shell?" kinds of things that have been problematic to WOTC in the past. Which makes me extremely hesitant in plumping down for paper versions.

Edit: As a side note, seeing Uro piles move to Field piles serves another fun benefit to Uro decks. Because of the need for different kinds of lands, there are a bunch of non-island lands that make blue mana (notably the filter lands too, like Flooded Grove). So I am much better insulated against Choke and Boil, if I am fetching and playing lands smart. Combine with a spicy singleton Life from the Loam, and it feels even better.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like W6 is a safe buy at this point. I've got regular Uro's never shelled out for the extended arts (which I typically do for my cards these days, if they're available. Don't feel comfortable in upgrading my set. I think the best Uro deck is going to be in pure green/blue though, and that it's not currently in the meta.
I mean maybe, but I'm not super jazzed about Temur in the first place, and W6s are still $60 a piece in both paper and online (don't own either). I have everything for Bant/Sultai Uro online, but only a single Uro in paper (use in Commander).

Sultai has amazing tools in Push, Cling, Trophy, and Decay. Bant has amazing tools in Path, T3feri, and bonkers SB cards. Temur has W6, that new GR God, bolts, and stuff. Each of them offers something great with regards to interaction and answers, and notably things NOT available in straight UG.

But I think either way, we're back to "Well Uro is the best thing. Which Uro shell is best Uro shell?" kinds of things that have been problematic to WOTC in the past. Which makes me extremely hesitant in plumping down for paper versions.

Edit: As a side note, seeing Uro piles move to Field piles serves another fun benefit to Uro decks. Because of the need for different kinds of lands, there are a bunch of non-island lands that make blue mana (notably the filter lands too, like Flooded Grove). So I am much better insulated against Choke and Boil, if I am fetching and playing lands smart. Combine with a spicy singleton Life from the Loam, and it feels even better.
This. The other colors offer too much at too little a cost to put into UG Uro. I was about to say something like this, but had to go somewhere IRL.

I got to see that Life from the Loam last night at FNM. Card looked good, even if it played even more into grave hate like Relic of Progenitus. I guess it's a way to keep fueling that if someone cracks the Relic early on.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But I think either way, we're back to "Well Uro is the best thing. Which Uro shell is best Uro shell?" kinds of things that have been problematic to WOTC in the past. Which makes me extremely hesitant in plumping down for paper versions.
Probably, I guess I was more making the point that W6 is probably a safe buy regardless. Uro may not be.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But I think either way, we're back to "Well Uro is the best thing. Which Uro shell is best Uro shell?" kinds of things that have been problematic to WOTC in the past. Which makes me extremely hesitant in plumping down for paper versions.
Probably, I guess I was more making the point that W6 is probably a safe buy regardless. Uro may not be.
Yeah, I could see that. It's just that I don't own W6s either in paper or online. And I only own 1 Uro in paper (4 online). I can't see myself playing any deck with W6 that didn't also have Uro.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

I thought Uro was fine until now but Omnath shells are probably going to get Uro banned down the line. People don't tend to like 4c decks being top dog and although there was a lot of debate going on which UGx shell was the best, all the incidental lifegain off Uro and Omnath really give you no reason to not just play four colors.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
I thought Uro was fine until now but Omnath shells are probably going to get Uro banned down the line. People don't tend to like 4c decks being top dog and although there was a lot of debate going on which UGx shell was the best, all the incidental lifegain off Uro and Omnath really give you no reason to not just play four colors.
Man, I can't even with this. Even if I wanted to try those out (found a random list on Goldfish), it would cost me nearly $370 to get the 7 (seven) cards needed to make this deck. (3 Omnath, 3 W6, 1 Gargaroth) despite owning everything else for a multitude of UW, Bant, Sultai, and UR staples. #finance

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
I thought Uro was fine until now but Omnath shells are probably going to get Uro banned down the line. People don't tend to like 4c decks being top dog and although there was a lot of debate going on which UGx shell was the best, all the incidental lifegain off Uro and Omnath really give you no reason to not just play four colors.
Man, I can't even with this. Even if I wanted to try those out (found a random list on Goldfish), it would cost me nearly $370 to get the 7 (seven) cards needed to make this deck. (3 Omnath, 3 W6, 1 Gargaroth) despite owning everything else for a multitude of UW, Bant, Sultai, and UR staples. #finance
I'm in the exact same situation, own literally the entire deck except for omnath and w6. I'll just stick to my slightly outdated bant field shell. It seems like a very poor investment now with both talk about Uro bans in Modern and paper being slowed down.

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