[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I don't think that higher levels of land interaction does reduce mana costs in Legacy
I don't think you quite recognize the impact Wasteland has on the format. It's removing lands from both sides of the table, in a 6 turn game, if both sides make 5 of their land drops that's 10 lands on the board. If each side uses a single Wasteland that drops it to 3, depending on when those lands are destroyed this could mean anywhere between 6 to 15 total mana spent on each side. In contrast if you make your first 5 land drops in a 6 turn game without Wasteland it's instead 20 mana spent in total. Meaning the effect of Wasteland is reducing total mana available by 25% to 70%.

The card doesn't only hate on utility lands, but it significantly reduces the amount of mana available to spend. This has a secondary effect in that by reducing mana available you reduce card costs, which in turn results in less generic mana in card costs, which then makes mana base requirements a lot more stringent.

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Post by Ulka » 1 year ago

Yep. Its why Tron could never exist in a wasteland format which honestly is why I think we haven't seen a true wasteland variant in Modern printing.
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I don't think that higher levels of land interaction does reduce mana costs in Legacy
I don't think you quite recognize the impact Wasteland has on the format. It's removing lands from both sides of the table, in a 6 turn game, if both sides make 5 of their land drops that's 10 lands on the board. If each side uses a single Wasteland that drops it to 3, depending on when those lands are destroyed this could mean anywhere between 6 to 15 total mana spent on each side. In contrast if you make your first 5 land drops in a 6 turn game without Wasteland it's instead 20 mana spent in total. Meaning the effect of Wasteland is reducing total mana available by 25% to 70%.

The card doesn't only hate on utility lands, but it significantly reduces the amount of mana available to spend. This has a secondary effect in that by reducing mana available you reduce card costs, which in turn results in less generic mana in card costs, which then makes mana base requirements a lot more stringent.
I think if you played Legacy you would realise just how much more cheap mana there is there cf Modern. Unless you mean the impact WL would have on Modern, in which case I agree, yeah, it would, for the reason you state.

Costs are just not reduced in Legacy in many, many decks- look at 12 post - it packs way over what its modern equivalent tron does mana wise. I get that wl reduces the amount of mana, but those decks also get access to mega mana, so it balances. That deck runs 10 cc Eldrazi, and often 15 cc. Decks like Enchantress run Emmy, expecting to hard cast.

Cloud post, Tomb, City, Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish SG, LED, Veteran Explorer, Red rituals, Gaeas' cradle, Mox D, Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual, GSZ into arbor, wild growth and friends, Carpet of Flowers, Exploration, Manifold and Monolith, Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Opal, Chrome Mox Serra's sanctum etc. plus a huge number of alternate costs such as Forces, Invigorate etc and a huge number of cheat spells- show and tell, rectors, packets- keep average cmc high. The whole format cheats on mana. I mean just look through the list data of cc on Legacy decks. Delver is cheap (bar the forces and Delve inclusions), sure, but plenty of decks pack high cc stuff and curve out into fat top ends that Modern would not allow. I play many decks in Legacy and expect 4 mana before T4 regardless of Wasteland. Mystic Forge is a classic case - often too expensive for Modern, not for older eternals.
More WL protection too, msin deck Needkes and Stifles in some cases.

Modern has always not had fast mana besides Opal, the Eldrazi lands, and one Spirit Guide. So WL would gave a massive impact, but it does not on the older two formats because Lotus et al.

So I am not sure if we are speaking at cross purposes on this, if you are talking about what WL would do to Modern, yeah, it would cut land down and costs would plummet. But what it does elsewhere, not really. Either way elsewhere is not relevant, of course.

I don't ever expect WL or similar to turn up.in Modern.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

If I could, I would split my time between playing legacy and modern. There's a lot of truth to what drmarkb is saying but I also feel he's ignoring a lot of the problems that plague legacy. I wouldn't want wasteland in modern because it might get wrenn and six banned, and at the moment I like playing with wrenn. Some of it boils down to wanting to play pet cards, and that's okay.

As long as legacy has a few answer cards that are better than the answer cards in modern, content creators who used to play legacy will continue to push the narrative that modern doesn't have answers, even though there's been a lot of improvement with answer cards.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
If I could, I would split my time between playing legacy and modern. There's a lot of truth to what drmarkb is saying but I also feel he's ignoring a lot of the problems that plague legacy. I wouldn't want wasteland in modern because it might get wrenn and six banned, and at the moment I like playing with wrenn. Some of it boils down to wanting to play pet cards, and that's okay.

As long as legacy has a few answer cards that are better than the answer cards in modern, content creators who used to play legacy will continue to push the narrative that modern doesn't have answers, even though there's been a lot of improvement with answer cards.
I'll tell you guys honestly right now. People are not going to enjoy Modern with Wasteland in the format. Firstly, Modern doesn't have Dual Lands like Underground Sea, so to have a Watery Grave Wastelanded after you paid 3 life to put it into play is pretty rough. Secondly, people are just not used to that type of powerful land destruction in Modern. If Wasteland was legal, I guarantee you that Cloudpost should 100% also be legal.

Legacy can take in cards like that. I mean, a deck is trying to show a Chancellor of the Annex on turn 1, cast Dark Ritual off Swamp, Thoughtseize you, Entomb, Reanimate. Another deck is trying to Lotus Petal, City of Traitors, Show and Tell Griselbrand. And these are not even the fastest Legacy decks, although Reanimator is really up there. Nobody can complain about Wasteland when those decks can do that immediately or decks can cast Force of Will even after 2 lands of theirs being Wastelanded. Legacy is a different animal and I for one am glad that Wasteland does not exist in Modern.
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

What is the current deck to beat in modern?
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
If I could, I would split my time between playing legacy and modern. There's a lot of truth to what drmarkb is saying but I also feel he's ignoring a lot of the problems that plague legacy. I wouldn't want wasteland in modern because it might get wrenn and six banned, and at the moment I like playing with wrenn. Some of it boils down to wanting to play pet cards, and that's okay.

As long as legacy has a few answer cards that are better than the answer cards in modern, content creators who used to play legacy will continue to push the narrative that modern doesn't have answers, even though there's been a lot of improvement with answer cards.
There are certainly issues with the eternal formats, that is true- I don't want to say there are none, there are some for sure. If people joined in more on the SoL thread I would be happy to expand on them.

I don't think answers vs threats are the big issues there though, 2020 and 19 certainly bring problems.

Modern's biggest issues balance wise is missing out on certain answers, notably Force/WL, but not missing out on certain threats. Answers had to get better from BFZ era, Assassin's Trophy being a good example of improvement. The issue is we let Uro et al into the format without those answers, and then have to ban more extensively. Improving cards to make assassin's trophy would have been fine if they had not been pushing out the raised Oko, Uro et al.

I must admit I would put wasteland in Modern, at least something close to WL. One thing I hate about Modern is greedy shock/fetch heavy bases, and what I call "blind fetching" where people fetch according to what they need now or next turn vs what the opponent might have. After you have lost a few games fetching a dual over a basic that gets wastelanded they would soon learn. You will note that a good many control decks run a fair few more basics in older formats. I would certainly allow cloudpost too, and try to print more pithing needle effects - which would also help vs walkers. I find it odd that Modern never sees main deck needle, but older formats do use them.


I thing that FCG is right- some people would hate WL in Modern, but then Modern has to have a vision- Pioneer is Standard plus,plus. Legacy is decks that say no, one way or the other, and/or say "I win". Vintage is expensive. Modern needs to decide which of Pioneer or Legacy it wants to be closer to and go there. Sitting in a half way house of ships passing in the night, one of them on fire, does not work.
Pioneer has the benefit of support so it will get solved and a large influx of players eventually and there will be big prizes to be gained playing the best decks, Legacy is a bit more brewer friendly in paper- tools are powerful and decks can come from pros or amateurs alike- because it enjoys less attention and there is less reason to play the best deck. Modern for me needs to have less attention than Pioneer, and be a small, niche format- Legacy light. I can't ever see it getting more than a GP per year if they ever restart. If not then Modern could be Pioneer plus, and take a radically different view of the banlist, but I feel that would destroy what little identity the format has more.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
I think if you played Legacy you would realise just how much more cheap mana there is there cf Modern.
I've played a lot of Legacy, not much lately since we don't have a local scene for it so it's dropped off a lot in the past 2 years but I still have my decks... I'm just limited to what I've got built at any given time since I don't play online very much.

My preferred deck is Nic Fit but I've got plenty of others like Miracles, Lands, Grixis, Delver, etc... I've got playsets of Cradles, Mox Diamonds, all 40 ABU duals, and 2 sets of Wasteland, Force, etc... so I'm pretty flexible in what I can put together at any given time.
Unless you mean the impact WL would have on Modern, in which case I agree, yeah, it would, for the reason you state.
I meant both. To take the analogy slightly further, look at Vintage vs Legacy. You run 4 Wastelands, and Strip Mine, and decks typically have far fewer lands but they supplement that with Moxes and Lotus. Additional mana acceleration isn't really directly comparable to simply making land drops. Just as spending 1-2-3-4-5-5 mana for 20 mana over an entire game isn't comparable to spending 20 mana in Storm going 1-2-2-3-3-9.

Wasteland still significantly changes the landscape of costs though, because even non mana ramp decks have to choose their answers assuming that Wasteland is going to be in effect in a match which in turn limits your tools against ramp decks.

Anyways, Wasteland certainly shouldn't be placed into the format but I think there's room for a card that falls somewhere between Wasteland and Field of Ruin in power.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

It is always hard discussing costs of spells as all the decks are different and interact differently. On paper the CCs are very high, but that won't always tell the story. WL clearly affects how the whole game goes on, but the decks are so different.

I have once ported and wasted etc. a show and tell deck that managed after 40 mins to hardcast an Archon at 6cc off 4 petals and a sol land, even though I had wastelock. Great game, for sure.

I don't think you ned worry about WL, it won't happen.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
What is the current deck to beat in modern?
In my opinion, it's one of the 3 flavors of Prowess (Mono Red, UR, or RB). I personally feel like it's Mono Red and in fact I feel so sure about that, if there was a paper tournament tomorrow, I would PLAY Mono Red.

A little background about me. I do not enjoy playing RDW or Mono Red strategies. I've almost never played them in my whole lifetime, having played over 20 years. It's not fun for me. I don't play them all that well. I feel like I run out of gas and the opponent stabilizes. It's just not me. It's probably the last thing I'd play. But ... I am also a Spike. I am willing to play whatever I feel is a good amount above the rest. I could be wrong in my determination, but there will always be some feeling as to why I think it's the best deck. If I feel that there is NO best deck, I don't mind running fun stuff if it's close in power level.

But I honestly think I'd play Mono Red Prowess if given the chance. I enjoy playing certain strategies, but I also like winning prizes and being able to turn that into more cardboard. ;)

*Sorry, I just thought of something. Kanister is a well known Pro and Streamer. He said that Bant Uro/Field of the Dead is the best deck. It's pretty well tuned and has game against everything. A stumble out of the opponent and the deck can bury you in card advantage. For the most part, Prowess can't beat Uro. But Prowess can also put the clock where you are dead before that. Lava Dart is a hell of a card and Mono is the only one that sideboards Blood Moon, which is a huge reason I rate it above the others.
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

Sorry if I'm bringing up a chewed-threw topic, but what are we thinking about Veil of Summer at this point? It has survived multiple BR announcements by now. Ignoring the Companion-ban announcement, which Veil survived because the companion mechanic was stealing the spotlight, when Veil of Summer wasn't banned in the announcements that banned Oko, Astrolabe and friends, people were still basically saying that VoS would get axed inside 2020. It did get banned in multiple other formats in short order, just not modern.

I don't think there's any question that Veil is just as out of place in modern as it is in standard or pioneer. I can't really say I understand why Veil is still around. The numbers are clearly there. Veil was on-and-off the most played card in 75s for weeks and weeks. It's been the most-played sideboard card in modern almost the entire time it's been legal.

I really really hope VoS doesn't stick around, because even if I lose every 10th game to Veil (which is absolutely not a stretch), that's every 10th game lost to a card that is almost impossible to play around / sideboard against unless you're willing to just ditch blue and black.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry if I'm bringing up a chewed-threw topic, but what are we thinking about Veil of Summer at this point? It has survived multiple BR announcements by now. Ignoring the Companion-ban announcement, which Veil survived because the companion mechanic was stealing the spotlight, when Veil of Summer wasn't banned in the announcements that banned Oko, Astrolabe and friends, people were still basically saying that VoS would get axed inside 2020. It did get banned in multiple other formats in short order, just not modern.

I don't think there's any question that Veil is just as out of place in modern as it is in standard or pioneer. I can't really say I understand why Veil is still around. The numbers are clearly there. Veil was on-and-off the most played card in 75s for weeks and weeks. It's been the most-played sideboard card in modern almost the entire time it's been legal.

I really really hope VoS doesn't stick around, because even if I lose every 10th game to Veil (which is absolutely not a stretch), that's every 10th game lost to a card that is almost impossible to play around / sideboard against unless you're willing to just ditch blue and black.
I'm a paper player, so admittedly I haven't played in forever. But I do watch a lot of twitchtv and I have the feeling that Veil of Summer is okay. If it makes you lose every 10th game, WotC is all right with that. Yes, it is a pretty messed up card, similar to T3feri. But I doubt they consider it a messed up card akin to Mycosynth Lattice where you actually can't play Magic. There is some play to Veil and the decks that play against it.

I'll bring up a controversial topic and I already realize that many don't agree with me. But I feel that Aether Gust is more of a problem than Veil of Summer. It is played more often because it's rarely dead. Veil of Summer is dead against many decks, even if it is super amazing against some. You can play a whole League of 5 matches without using Veil. You cannot play a League without using Aether Gust. I see Aether Gust a lot more often. But even Aether Gust is fine. It's an annoying card. You set Cavern of Souls on "so and so." The spell gets Gusted on the stack. That's pretty annoying. Maybe I'm biased? Being able to control when you Aether Gust a Blood Moon or a 6/7 Monastery Swiftspear is very strong. I'll end there because I can already feel people's eyes starting to glaze over...
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Sorry if I'm bringing up a chewed-threw topic, but what are we thinking about Veil of Summer at this point? It has survived multiple BR announcements by now. Ignoring the Companion-ban announcement, which Veil survived because the companion mechanic was stealing the spotlight, when Veil of Summer wasn't banned in the announcements that banned Oko, Astrolabe and friends, people were still basically saying that VoS would get axed inside 2020. It did get banned in multiple other formats in short order, just not modern.

I don't think there's any question that Veil is just as out of place in modern as it is in standard or pioneer. I can't really say I understand why Veil is still around. The numbers are clearly there. Veil was on-and-off the most played card in 75s for weeks and weeks. It's been the most-played sideboard card in modern almost the entire time it's been legal.

I really really hope VoS doesn't stick around, because even if I lose every 10th game to Veil (which is absolutely not a stretch), that's every 10th game lost to a card that is almost impossible to play around / sideboard against unless you're willing to just ditch blue and black.
I'm a paper player, so admittedly I haven't played in forever. But I do watch a lot of twitchtv and I have the feeling that Veil of Summer is okay. If it makes you lose every 10th game, WotC is all right with that. Yes, it is a pretty messed up card, similar to T3feri. But I doubt they consider it a messed up card akin to Mycosynth Lattice where you actually can't play Magic. There is some play to Veil and the decks that play against it.

I'll bring up a controversial topic and I already realize that many don't agree with me. But I feel that Aether Gust is more of a problem than Veil of Summer. It is played more often because it's rarely dead. Veil of Summer is dead against many decks, even if it is super amazing against some. You can play a whole League of 5 matches without using Veil. You cannot play a League without using Aether Gust. I see Aether Gust a lot more often. But even Aether Gust is fine. It's an annoying card. You set Cavern of Souls on "so and so." The spell gets Gusted on the stack. That's pretty annoying. Maybe I'm biased? Being able to control when you Aether Gust a Blood Moon or a 6/7 Monastery Swiftspear is very strong. I'll end there because I can already feel people's eyes starting to glaze over...
Have to say I respectfully yet completely disagree with both your assessments. Aether Gust is hated by Titan players who don't have a clean, unanswerable "oops-I-win" button in Cavern of Souls anymore. If you think Aether Gust is s problem, Caverns is aproblem too. Gust also being able to bounce lock pieces like Choke, Blood Moon (and Boil) is also a net-positive because while both are still strong, blue has an out to them.

And what play is there to Veil of Summer? In practice there is zero play against Veil. You can't preemtively discard it because they'll just cash in their 2for1, its literally as mana-efficient as it gets... And it's not an issue if UGx decks lose every 10th game of magic overall because of a single sideboard card? Do you realize how absurd that statement is?! Jeezus

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like I run out of gas and the opponent stabilizes. It's just not me. It's probably the last thing I'd play.
with 3-4 Bedlam Reveler, and at least 8 cantrips in the main. It can keep up a strong offense longer than ordinary burn decks. That's one thing I liked about prowess.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Have to say I respectfully yet completely disagree with both your assessments. Aether Gust is hated by Titan players who don't have a clean, unanswerable "oops-I-win" button in Cavern of Souls anymore. If you think Aether Gust is s problem, Caverns is aproblem too. Gust also being able to bounce lock pieces like Choke, Blood Moon (and Boil) is also a net-positive because while both are still strong, blue has an out to them.

And what play is there to Veil of Summer? In practice there is zero play against Veil. You can't preemtively discard it because they'll just cash in their 2for1, its literally as mana-efficient as it gets... And it's not an issue if UGx decks lose every 10th game of magic overall because of a single sideboard card? Do you realize how absurd that statement is?! Jeezus
That's fine. We can agree to disagree. If you think Blue having access to something to solve almost anything played in the format right now, that's okay. Gust being an out to hate pieces is a net positive? I don't see it that way. Gust is used to bounce those pieces to completely nullify them, while utilizing tons of Mystic Sanctuary and Field of the Dead. Not to mention, Choke often doesn't do much because there's so many non Islands in the deck. Have you seen Oboro in the Bant deck? Blood Moon is a necessity to decks that want to be too greedy and play 20 of 24 lands with different names and utilities.

There is play to Veil because if it's telegraphed, you just go a different direction if you can. No single deck wins only with a Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Those are not win-cons. You can avoid your 1 mana spell and have your opponent continue to leave up Green for the whole game, telegraphing it more when they play something that is 1 Green mana less than they currently have when they could have tapped out to play it last turn. So you play other stuff like Death's Shadow to see if your opponent is willing to cycle Veil of Summer for G mana. I doubt that UGx decks lose every 10th game of magic overall because of a 4 of Veil of Summer in the SB, especially since they also win games due to their 4 copies in the SB. But I am sure that artifact decks, if anyone remembers those, DO lose 1 in every 10 games to a 2 of SBed Stony Silence previously. I wonder how many games a Dredge player loses to Rest in Pepperonis? The issue that you have with Veil of Summer AND that I have with Aether Gust is mostly because of Mystic Sanctuary, granting the ability to play them 4-5 times per game with only 1 copy. Do you agree that it is more of the issue? Because Veil is not usually going to be the only card needed to win a game of Magic, just like Aether Gust is not.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
That's fine. We can agree to disagree. If you think Blue having access to something to solve almost anything played in the format right now, that's okay. Gust being an out to hate pieces is a net positive? I don't see it that way. Gust is used to bounce those pieces to completely nullify them, while utilizing tons of Mystic Sanctuary and Field of the Dead.
At least Gust doesn't cost 1 mana and doesn't draw me a card. It's a tempo play. That the decks that play it, can capitalize on that tempo swing is another thing, it's also -as mentioned- a 1-for-1. Also, Gust is mostly played to counteract the oppressiveness of late-2019 and 2020 green cards and gave Ux decks a chance against Titan again. Plus it's not as played as Veil, because it's good in specific match ups that are not as popular or relevant for the decks that play Gust, whereas Veil has game against the majority of interaction, which is one of its core problems.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Choke often doesn't do much because there's so many non Islands in the deck. Have you seen Oboro in the Bant deck?
It's not uncommon for control decks to have 8-10 Islands, which is around the number that the Uro piles play, so yeah, Choke IS a problem. It might not matter on occasion -as it has happened when I played UW control- but it's uncommon. An early-mid Choke is lights out.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
There is play to Veil because if it's telegraphed, you just go a different direction if you can. No single deck wins only with a Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Those are not win-cons. You can avoid your 1 mana spell and have your opponent continue to leave up Green for the whole game, telegraphing it more when they play something that is 1 Green mana less than they currently have when they could have tapped out to play it last turn
Because, as we all know you can always chose different angles of attack or play around Veil. I'm sorry, but what the hell is this argument? You giving them tempo and time to not only develop their board and also fix their hand is worse than tabling your interaction to work AROUND Veil. Especially, if they're playing a combo deck or something like Death's Shadow, where you're on a clock. Nevermind that they'll (probably) end up trading up in mana and cards when you DO decide to cast your removal/counter/discard. More often than not, you'll have to force the Veil and take the 2 for 1, so you can start being as mana efficient as possible.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
The issue that you have with Veil of Summer AND that I have with Aether Gust is mostly because of Mystic Sanctuary, granting the ability to play them 4-5 times per game with only 1 copy. Do you agree that it is more of the issue? Because Veil is not usually going to be the only card needed to win a game of Magic, just like Aether Gust is not.
Veil could already be Snapcaster'd back way more effectively than Aether Gust (3 vs 4 mana) and if your opponent is at the point of playing Sanctuaries (of the 2 -maaaaybe 3- they're playing) to get back Veil you're already far behind, but Cryptic is 95% of the times better because it re-buys Sanctuary if needed.

No Veil is a problem because it is a 1 mana cantrip that shuts down almost all interaction, whereas Gust is a 2 mana "bounce" spell that bypasses uncounterability. There's no world in where Gust is on the level of Veil and that is reflected in their play percentage.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
That's fine. We can agree to disagree. If you think Blue having access to something to solve almost anything played in the format right now, that's okay. Gust being an out to hate pieces is a net positive? I don't see it that way. Gust is used to bounce those pieces to completely nullify them, while utilizing tons of Mystic Sanctuary and Field of the Dead.
At least Gust doesn't cost 1 mana and doesn't draw me a card. It's a tempo play. That the decks that play it, can capitalize on that tempo swing is another thing, it's also -as mentioned- a 1-for-1. Also, Gust is mostly played to counteract the oppressiveness of late-2019 and 2020 green cards and gave Ux decks a chance against Titan again. Plus it's not as played as Veil, because it's good in specific match ups that are not as popular or relevant for the decks that play Gust, whereas Veil has game against the majority of interaction, which is one of its core problems.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Choke often doesn't do much because there's so many non Islands in the deck. Have you seen Oboro in the Bant deck?
It's not uncommon for control decks to have 8-10 Islands, which is around the number that the Uro piles play, so yeah, Choke IS a problem. It might not matter on occasion -as it has happened when I played UW control- but it's uncommon. An early-mid Choke is lights out.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
There is play to Veil because if it's telegraphed, you just go a different direction if you can. No single deck wins only with a Thoughtseize or Fatal Push. Those are not win-cons. You can avoid your 1 mana spell and have your opponent continue to leave up Green for the whole game, telegraphing it more when they play something that is 1 Green mana less than they currently have when they could have tapped out to play it last turn
Because, as we all know you can always chose different angles of attack or play around Veil. I'm sorry, but what the hell is this argument? You giving them tempo and time to not only develop their board and also fix their hand is worse than tabling your interaction to work AROUND Veil. Especially, if they're playing a combo deck or something like Death's Shadow, where you're on a clock. Nevermind that they'll (probably) end up trading up in mana and cards when you DO decide to cast your removal/counter/discard. More often than not, you'll have to force the Veil and take the 2 for 1, so you can start being as mana efficient as possible.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
The issue that you have with Veil of Summer AND that I have with Aether Gust is mostly because of Mystic Sanctuary, granting the ability to play them 4-5 times per game with only 1 copy. Do you agree that it is more of the issue? Because Veil is not usually going to be the only card needed to win a game of Magic, just like Aether Gust is not.
Veil could already be Snapcaster'd back way more effectively than Aether Gust (3 vs 4 mana) and if your opponent is at the point of playing Sanctuaries (of the 2 -maaaaybe 3- they're playing) to get back Veil you're already far behind, but Cryptic is 95% of the times better because it re-buys Sanctuary if needed.

No Veil is a problem because it is a 1 mana cantrip that shuts down almost all interaction, whereas Gust is a 2 mana "bounce" spell that bypasses uncounterability. There's no world in where Gust is on the level of Veil and that is reflected in their play percentage.
Gust is definitely played more often than Veil. I know very few Blue decks that don't play Gust. For Veil, there's a few Green decks that don't run it - Amulet runs 0 Veil and 4 Aether Gust. Yes, I realize that Amulet is not the only deck in the format. It's just a single example.

Choke also rarely does anything after turn 4. Blue already had Repeal if they needed that bounce effect, Repeal being a fairly solid card. Gust is a card that works on the stack or when a Green or Red spell has already resolved. It doesn't put the spell in the graveyard, where plenty of decks can use it later anyway. I realize there's a lot of hate for cards like Boil, Choke, and I've even seen Flashfires brought up (which I did not know it was Modern legal, sorry). But there's a place for cards like that. Even with all these cards, the only competitive Blue decks right now are Uro Soup and UW Sharkblade. So tell me again how badly these hate cards have hurt Blue?

It may be sad to say, but Snapcaster Mage is a relic of an older time. The 2/1 body is not worth playing a max of 4 of these in a deck and costing 1U, compared with playing 15 Mystic Sanctuaries in a deck and costing 0 extra. I have almost seen 0 Snapcaster Mages in the past 3 months, outside of Snap/Path.

Veil shuts down interaction, yes. When a player who has always leaned on that turn 1 Thoughtseize crutch their whole Modern career is afraid to do it on the draw, yes, it has shut that down. They are leaving up G every single turn at a chance to shut down interaction. You are free to play whatever you want to, without leaving a single mana up. Why is 1 mana so important? Because the power level in mtg has gone up. When you're facing triple Swiftspear on turn 2 going into their turn 3, you know there's a chance you're dead. When someone is about to escape Uro, you know you're dead. When someone assembles Tron on turn 3, you know you're dead. If you have 2 or 3 Thoughtseize, you are free to get your first one Veiled. You have to make choices. I know that people have cast Thoughtseize for years without any consequence, other than the 1 time their opponent had 6 lands and Obstinate Baloth, which they still beat that hand. You know what else wins in a counter war? Aether Gust on Veil. ;)

But I digress. Like I said, it's an unpopular opinion. The opinion online from what I've seen and heard for the most part is that Veil and Gust are completely fine. Uro is completely fine. Everything's great. There's diversity in Prowess, Uro Soup, and GR Midrange, mixed with the occasional Tron variants and then meme decks.

*Just found this - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern While it's not to the date right now, it looks like I'm wrong. Veil is at 33% of decks, while Gust is at 26%. I wish they would do the stats by total COPIES as well. I've seen Gust mostly at 4 and Veil usually at 2-3, but I guess it's just my own player's bias. Edited above.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Gust is definitely played more often than Veil. I know very few Blue decks that don't play Gust. For Veil, there's a few Green decks that don't run it - Amulet runs 0 Veil and 4 Aether Gust. Yes, I realize that Amulet is not the only deck in the format. It's just a single example.
Blue decks play Gusts because they can give them game against Cavern or resolved permanents. Yet, despite most Blue decks playing Gust, Veil is still more widely played and with more total copies. I know of one deck that plays 4 Gusts, and that is some Uro piles -mostly the UG ones, the rest of the Blue decks are playing anything from 1 to 3.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Choke also rarely does anything after turn 4. Blue already had Repeal if they needed that bounce effect, Repeal being a fairly solid card. Gust is a card that works on the stack or when a Green or Red spell has already resolved.
If after turn 4 you mean turn 8 then sure, but even a T4-T5 Choke/Blood Moon/Boil can really %$#% you up, especially because they can be played with Veil back up. Repeal is a bad card,. Always has been outside of U-Tron, maybe an artifact combo deck and Vintage. A better comparison would've been either Boomerang or Into the Roil, which certainly shows that tacking an extra card on an instant is worth 2 mana instead of 0.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I realize there's a lot of hate for cards like Boil, Choke, and I've even seen Flashfires brought up (which I did not know it was Modern legal, sorry). But there's a place for cards like that. Even with all these cards, the only competitive Blue decks right now are Uro Soup and UW Sharkblade. So tell me again how badly these hate cards have hurt Blue?
I hate Boil and Choke on principle, in that they specifically target Islands and are not more like Blood Moon. I never made the argument that blue is somehow struggling, that's you. The only hate card that consistently hates on blue and a whole swath of interaction is Veil, and you keep defending it by deflecting to Gust as if they're on the same power level. And if you're referring to my past posts, I've also wanted T3feri gone, along with Veil, because he too shuts down a large part of Magic.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Veil shuts down interaction, yes. When a player who has always leaned on that turn 1 Thoughtseize crutch their whole Modern career is afraid to do it on the draw, yes, it has shut that down. They are leaving up G every single turn at a chance to shut down interaction. You are free to play whatever you want to, without leaving a single mana up. Why is 1 mana so important? Because the power level in mtg has gone up. When you're facing triple Swiftspear on turn 2 going into their turn 3, you know there's a chance you're dead. When someone is about to escape Uro, you know you're dead. When someone assembles Tron on turn 3, you know you're dead. If you have 2 or 3 Thoughtseize, you are free to get your first one Veiled. You have to make choices. I know that people have cast Thoughtseize for years without any consequence, other than the 1 time their opponent had 6 lands and Obstinate Baloth, which they still beat that hand.
Since when is escaping Uro or Tron having 7 mana on T3 a death sentence? For that matter triple Swiftspear as well (although that's more dangerous)? If Veil is forcing them to delay their interaction it has done its job, without even spending the mana to do it. How is that not toxic? Gust in the same position would be irrelevant, because you could chose to replay the card, and you lost some tempo while they spent a card. With Veil, they not only lost some tempo because they chose to not be as mana efficient as possiblee, but when they cast their interaction they got 2 for 1'd. Again, why is Gust more toxic in your eyes than Veil?

Also, in all of your above examples Gust is a dead or irrelevant card, while Veil can be used by most of the decks you mentioned to protect themselves.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
You know what else wins in a counter war? Aether Gust on Veil.
I'll play along with this non-sequitor. You know what wins a counter war? Veil, while also giving you a card back for 0 extra mana!
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
But I digress. Like I said, it's an unpopular opinion. The opinion online from what I've seen and heard for the most part is that Veil and Gust are completely fine. Uro is completely fine. Everything's great. There's diversity in Prowess, Uro Soup, and GR Midrange, mixed with the occasional Tron variants and then meme decks.
Where have you seen that Veil and Uro are fine? I've seen pretty much a split on the community on these cards, while Gust is not even mentioned.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*Just found this - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern While it's not to the date right now, it looks like I'm wrong. Veil is at 33% of decks, while Gust is at 26%. I wish they would do the stats by total COPIES as well. I've seen Gust mostly at 4 and Veil usually at 2-3, but I guess it's just my own player's bias. Edited above.
They do the total copies in the specific events and in those events Veil is consistently more widely played than Gust, played in way more dangerous decks (namely Combo) and with more total numbers. As mentioned above, the only deck(s) that play consistently 3-4 Gusts are the Valakut Uro types, since their color combo doesn't let them consistently deal with some resolved permanents. All other Blue decks that play Gust are anything between 0 and 3.



You keep consistently downplaying the strengths of Veil, in order to paint Gust as something of a problem by comparison and it's really hard to grasp why.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Where have you seen that Veil and Uro are fine? I've seen pretty much a split on the community on these cards, while Gust is not even mentioned.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*Just found this - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/modern While it's not to the date right now, it looks like I'm wrong. Veil is at 33% of decks, while Gust is at 26%. I wish they would do the stats by total COPIES as well. I've seen Gust mostly at 4 and Veil usually at 2-3, but I guess it's just my own player's bias. Edited above.
They do the total copies in the specific events and in those events Veil is consistently more widely played than Gust, played in way more dangerous decks (namely Combo) and with more total numbers. As mentioned above, the only deck(s) that play consistently 3-4 Gusts are the Valakut Uro types, since their color combo doesn't let them consistently deal with some resolved permanents. All other Blue decks that play Gust are anything between 0 and 3.



You keep consistently downplaying the strengths of Veil, in order to paint Gust as something of a problem by comparison and it's really hard to grasp why.
I watch these streamers - FPawlusz, squachief, aspiringspike, yellowhat, gigy, magus of the moon, and occasionally others. Sometimes, there are people in the chat that bring up Veil of Summer and it's usually me and a few guys there that are against it. In the chat, it's close to 50/50 from the people that take the time to respond, but I don't know a single streamer that complains about Veil. I do agree with you that Gust is not even mentioned, unless I bring it up. People are fine with Gust.

The link that I posted actually does show copies played in the decks that have Veil, Gust, and any of the other cards in the top 10 most played in Modern. Veil is at 2.3 copies. Gust is at 2.8 copies. This seems about right from what I've seen, although I'm surprised that decks that SB Gust have fewer than an average of 3 copies.

If Veil is such a problem, then you can choose a deck that is not affected by it. You can play a deck that overloads on those effects, so that you will resolve some important things and the onus is on the opponent to pick and choose spots. I still see plenty of Shadow in streamed Leagues, mostly Jund or 4 color now (rarely Grixis, I admit). I see very little Jund, but that's mostly because Jund's power level has been passed up a while back. Wrenn and Six and Kroxa were not enough to keep up with Uro, Field, and Baby Shark. The real question for you is this - which archetypes have been stifled by SB Veil of Summer (because only Ad Nauseam has run it mainboard from what I've seen)? Do you want more Jund? Do you want Shadow to be the predominantly played deck? Do you want Modern to be more of a Thoughtseize format than Pioneer? Banning Veil accomplishes what exactly, with a mention of the meta? (not accepting a general answer of the meta will be more interactive because that has 100 different definitions to 100 different people)

*Why do I bring up Gust? I was against Veil of Summer and T3feri too. Yes, I think most people can agree that they're terrible designs and do some really stupid stuff. But the real question is how much effect do they have on Modern? Did people stop playing removal? Did people stop playing discard? Did people stop interacting? Tough questions, I know. Once I delved into the people that are grinding this "paper being dead for now" period for Magic, I learned that everything is not so cut and dry. Oko was a terrible design. It started seeing play in almost every deck, main deck might I add. That is the difference between it and Veil of Summer. I don't want to see more stuff banned. I don't want WotC to ban something because someone doesn't like it. I don't like Aether Gust. I don't like Ashiok, Dream Render. Those are a %$#% pain. Do I want them banned? Absolutely NOT. Gonna say that again in case someone thinks I want them banned. I do NOT want Aether Gust or Ashiok, Dream Render banned. When you look at the list for the 10 most played cards (not most played non creature, non CARDS), what do you see at 5, 6, 7, and 10? You see Fatal Push, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, and Dismember. It looks like Veil didn't kill as much interaction as we thought it did if there are 3 Black cards in the top 10 (30%) and 1 Blue card. 5 colors equals an average of 2 cards per top 10.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
If Veil is such a problem, then you can choose a deck that is not affected by it. You can play a deck that overloads on those effects, so that you will resolve some important things and the onus is on the opponent to pick and choose spots
So if I like control and tempo decks (and artifact decks for that matter) I should just stop playing? Well, thanks to the pandemic I have, but when I did play I was playing Mox Opal decks because I didn't want to have a high chance of facing it, and I STILL got got by it. Luckily for me the stores I'm playing at aren't as heavy on the combo decks that play Veil. There's too much T3feri though.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
The real question for you is this - which archetypes have been stifled by SB Veil of Summer (because only Ad Nauseam has run it mainboard from what I've seen)? Do you want more Jund? Do you want Shadow to be the predominantly played deck? Do you want Modern to be more of a Thoughtseize format than Pioneer? Banning Veil accomplishes what exactly, with a mention of the meta? (not accepting a general answer of the meta will be more interactive because that has 100 different definitions to 100 different people)
Up until recently, the ONLY control decks that were played were Uro decks. Shadow was anything but a deck, while Jund has made appearances here and there, however it's presence is anemic. All of these decks have being hurt by Veil, and Shadow has started incorporating it itself. So it mostly has being either get got by it or join them. UW mostly rides on the power of T3feri and Path not being affected by Veil, but stil a MAJOR proportion of its gameplan is being shut down by it, and it definitely can't really win any UGx mirror because of that, unless it gets lucky with an early T3feri. Some UW Control decks have been branching out to Red as well.

Banning Veil, along with T3feri, erases 2 of the biggest mistakes of 2019, plus enabling other decks to at least have a chance. Do you think a Uxx Tempo or Control will ever exist with T3f and Veil? There have been some great printings lately, such as Stormwing Entity and the Thieves' Guild Enforcer that can carry tempo decks, but when your plan is shut down by 2 very prolific cards, you either go full linear (Stormwing) or don't play at all.

That's the effect of Veil (and to a lesser point of T3feri). It consolidates decks to either play Veil (and/or T3feri) to shut down -not combat- other strategies. Let's not forget that Veil disproportionately enhances almost all current and future combo decks.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*Why do I bring up Gust? I was against Veil of Summer and T3feri too. Yes, I think most people can agree that they're terrible designs and do some really stupid stuff. But the real question is how much effect do they have on Modern? Did people stop playing removal? Did people stop playing discard? Did people stop interacting? Tough questions, I know. Once I delved into the people that are grinding this "paper being dead for now" period for Magic, I learned that everything is not so cut and dry. Oko was a terrible design. It started seeing play in almost every deck, main deck might I add. That is the difference between it and Veil of Summer. I don't want to see more stuff banned. I don't want WotC to ban something because someone doesn't like it. I don't like Aether Gust. I don't like Ashiok, Dream Render. Those are a %$#% pain. Do I want them banned? Absolutely NOT. Gonna say that again in case someone thinks I want them banned. I do NOT want Aether Gust or Ashiok, Dream Render banned. When you look at the list for the 10 most played cards (not most played non creature, non CARDS), what do you see at 5, 6, 7, and 10? You see Fatal Push, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, and Dismember. It looks like Veil didn't kill as much interaction as we thought it did if there are 3 Black cards in the top 10 (30%) and 1 Blue card. 5 colors equals an average of 2 cards per top 10.
That's a lot of words to, in essence, say "but what about these cards?! They get played!". They get played because MOST of those cards are played in conjunction with Veil, because the point is to prevent your opponent from playing not interacting with him.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
If Veil is such a problem, then you can choose a deck that is not affected by it. You can play a deck that overloads on those effects, so that you will resolve some important things and the onus is on the opponent to pick and choose spots
So if I like control and tempo decks (and artifact decks for that matter) I should just stop playing? Well, thanks to the pandemic I have, but when I did play I was playing Mox Opal decks because I didn't want to have a high chance of facing it, and I STILL got got by it. Luckily for me the stores I'm playing at aren't as heavy on the combo decks that play Veil. There's too much T3feri though.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
The real question for you is this - which archetypes have been stifled by SB Veil of Summer (because only Ad Nauseam has run it mainboard from what I've seen)? Do you want more Jund? Do you want Shadow to be the predominantly played deck? Do you want Modern to be more of a Thoughtseize format than Pioneer? Banning Veil accomplishes what exactly, with a mention of the meta? (not accepting a general answer of the meta will be more interactive because that has 100 different definitions to 100 different people)
Up until recently, the ONLY control decks that were played were Uro decks. Shadow was anything but a deck, while Jund has made appearances here and there, however it's presence is anemic. All of these decks have being hurt by Veil, and Shadow has started incorporating it itself. So it mostly has being either get got by it or join them. UW mostly rides on the power of T3feri and Path not being affected by Veil, but stil a MAJOR proportion of its gameplan is being shut down by it, and it definitely can't really win any UGx mirror because of that, unless it gets lucky with an early T3feri. Some UW Control decks have been branching out to Red as well.

Banning Veil, along with T3feri, erases 2 of the biggest mistakes of 2019, plus enabling other decks to at least have a chance. Do you think a Uxx Tempo or Control will ever exist with T3f and Veil? There have been some great printings lately, such as Stormwing Entity and the Thieves' Guild Enforcer that can carry tempo decks, but when your plan is shut down by 2 very prolific cards, you either go full linear (Stormwing) or don't play at all.

That's the effect of Veil (and to a lesser point of T3feri). It consolidates decks to either play Veil (and/or T3feri) to shut down -not combat- other strategies. Let's not forget that Veil disproportionately enhances almost all current and future combo decks.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
*Why do I bring up Gust? I was against Veil of Summer and T3feri too. Yes, I think most people can agree that they're terrible designs and do some really stupid stuff. But the real question is how much effect do they have on Modern? Did people stop playing removal? Did people stop playing discard? Did people stop interacting? Tough questions, I know. Once I delved into the people that are grinding this "paper being dead for now" period for Magic, I learned that everything is not so cut and dry. Oko was a terrible design. It started seeing play in almost every deck, main deck might I add. That is the difference between it and Veil of Summer. I don't want to see more stuff banned. I don't want WotC to ban something because someone doesn't like it. I don't like Aether Gust. I don't like Ashiok, Dream Render. Those are a %$#% pain. Do I want them banned? Absolutely NOT. Gonna say that again in case someone thinks I want them banned. I do NOT want Aether Gust or Ashiok, Dream Render banned. When you look at the list for the 10 most played cards (not most played non creature, non CARDS), what do you see at 5, 6, 7, and 10? You see Fatal Push, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, and Dismember. It looks like Veil didn't kill as much interaction as we thought it did if there are 3 Black cards in the top 10 (30%) and 1 Blue card. 5 colors equals an average of 2 cards per top 10.
That's a lot of words to, in essence, say "but what about these cards?! They get played!". They get played because MOST of those cards are played in conjunction with Veil, because the point is to prevent your opponent from playing not interacting with him.
You can still play Control. You just have to play Uro. Sharkblade is also fine. I have friends who think it's the best deck currently in Modern, to which I don't agree. I do think the UW Sharkblade vs. Uro Soup matchup is fairly close though, even if Veil does give an advantage. Veil doesn't automatically turn a 50/50 matchup into a 40/60 matchup all by itself.

Regarding Tempo, I'm sorry to say that it has never been a thing in Modern. You have to use an extremely loose definition of Tempo, calling Shadow or Humans a Tempo deck. Skred Red and Merfolk have more GP wins than any Tempo deck. That's partially because people believe that Preordain would bust open Modern worse than any other card, but even with Preordain, Tempo is not likely to get that big a boost. In Standard, I played the SNOT out of Delver. In Modern, I've never played it. In Legacy, I played it a little bit, but I don't enjoy it much there TBH. I am a Spike. That should tell you something.

I'm genuinely sorry that T3feri is overrepresented in your meta, but right now on mtggoldfish, only one of the 5 top played Modern decks play it.

There's a R card, Lightning Bolt at #1, there's a Green card, Veil of Summer at #2, there's a White card, Path to Exile at #3. The other 7 cards are all Blue or Black. Is that too many words?
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Mox Opal was the incorrect ban. But we have to deal with that now. WotC will most likely not unban it until a minimum of 5 years. Tempo was never a thing in Modern, so we cannot blame an incorrect banning, Veil of Summer, or T3feri for Tempo not being a deck. That would be like me blaming Oko, Thief of Crowns for Mono Blue Control not being a thing in 2012.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
You can still play Control. You just have to play Uro. Sharkblade is also fine. I have friends who think it's the best deck currently in Modern, to which I don't agree. I do think the UW Sharkblade vs. Uro Soup matchup is fairly close though, even if Veil does give an advantage. Veil doesn't automatically turn a 50/50 matchup into a 40/60 matchup all by itself.
Uro piles vs UW Shark is not even close to being 50-50, let alone a 60-40 matchup. Especially if the Uro piles play Field of the Dead. Uro piles go way above UW Shark and post SB they have Veil that worsens the matchup. I don't know how the UW Yorion & friends does vs Uro piles though.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Regarding Tempo, I'm sorry to say that it has never been a thing in Modern. You have to use an extremely loose definition of Tempo, calling Shadow or Humans a Tempo deck. Skred Red and Merfolk have more GP wins than any Tempo deck. That's partially because people believe that Preordain would bust open Modern worse than any other card, but even with Preordain, Tempo is not likely to get that big a boost. In Standard, I played the SNOT out of Delver. In Modern, I've never played it. In Legacy, I played it a little bit, but I don't enjoy it much there TBH. I am a Spike. That should tell you something.
Delver was a thing, even outside the Cruise era. Also, (Grixis) Death's Shadow is very close to the colloquial meaning of tempo than you realize. One could argue that Faeries/Ninjas mixes that have popped up sometimes are tempo. Point being, as I said before, the tools for a good tempo deck are there, but 1 very popular card and another semi popular are driving those strategies away.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
There's a R card, Lightning Bolt at #1, there's a Green card, Veil of Summer at #2, there's a White card, Path to Exile at #3. The other 7 cards are all Blue or Black. Is that too many words?
The fact that a SB card is even at the top 3-Top 5 played cards consistently, rivaling Bolt and Path should really tell you that it's a problem.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Mox Opal was the incorrect ban. But we have to deal with that now. WotC will most likely not unban it until a minimum of 5 years. Tempo was never a thing in Modern, so we cannot blame an incorrect banning, Veil of Summer, or T3feri for Tempo not being a deck. That would be like me blaming Oko, Thief of Crowns for Mono Blue Control not being a thing in 2012.
Yeah, the only way I'm ever playing an artifact deck in Modern is if/when they print anything of relevance in the upcoming return to New Phyrexia or if we ever return on Esper or Kaladesh.

Again, I never blamed Veil and/or T3feri for tempo not existing. I blamed Veil and T3feri for the atrocious play they engender and that they shouldn't exist. Moreover, Veil is an overpowered af card that does too much for too little and its opportunity cost is minimal. Not to mention that it disproportionately empowers combo decks. All that, means that tempo decks, which were non-existent because they lagged behind on card quality -but now got some cool toys- can never hope to breathe.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
You can still play Control. You just have to play Uro. Sharkblade is also fine. I have friends who think it's the best deck currently in Modern, to which I don't agree. I do think the UW Sharkblade vs. Uro Soup matchup is fairly close though, even if Veil does give an advantage. Veil doesn't automatically turn a 50/50 matchup into a 40/60 matchup all by itself.
Uro piles vs UW Shark is not even close to being 50-50, let alone a 60-40 matchup. Especially if the Uro piles play Field of the Dead. Uro piles go way above UW Shark and post SB they have Veil that worsens the matchup. I don't know how the UW Yorion & friends does vs Uro piles though.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Regarding Tempo, I'm sorry to say that it has never been a thing in Modern. You have to use an extremely loose definition of Tempo, calling Shadow or Humans a Tempo deck. Skred Red and Merfolk have more GP wins than any Tempo deck. That's partially because people believe that Preordain would bust open Modern worse than any other card, but even with Preordain, Tempo is not likely to get that big a boost. In Standard, I played the SNOT out of Delver. In Modern, I've never played it. In Legacy, I played it a little bit, but I don't enjoy it much there TBH. I am a Spike. That should tell you something.
Delver was a thing, even outside the Cruise era. Also, (Grixis) Death's Shadow is very close to the colloquial meaning of tempo than you realize. One could argue that Faeries/Ninjas mixes that have popped up sometimes are tempo. Point being, as I said before, the tools for a good tempo deck are there, but 1 very popular card and another semi popular are driving those strategies away.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
There's a R card, Lightning Bolt at #1, there's a Green card, Veil of Summer at #2, there's a White card, Path to Exile at #3. The other 7 cards are all Blue or Black. Is that too many words?
The fact that a SB card is even at the top 3-Top 5 played cards consistently, rivaling Bolt and Path should really tell you that it's a problem.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
Mox Opal was the incorrect ban. But we have to deal with that now. WotC will most likely not unban it until a minimum of 5 years. Tempo was never a thing in Modern, so we cannot blame an incorrect banning, Veil of Summer, or T3feri for Tempo not being a deck. That would be like me blaming Oko, Thief of Crowns for Mono Blue Control not being a thing in 2012.
Yeah, the only way I'm ever playing an artifact deck in Modern is if/when they print anything of relevance in the upcoming return to New Phyrexia or if we ever return on Esper or Kaladesh.

Again, I never blamed Veil and/or T3feri for tempo not existing. I blamed Veil and T3feri for the atrocious play they engender and that they shouldn't exist. Moreover, Veil is an overpowered af card that does too much for too little and its opportunity cost is minimal. Not to mention that it disproportionately empowers combo decks. All that, means that tempo decks, which were non-existent because they lagged behind on card quality -but now got some cool toys- can never hope to breathe.
I could be wrong about UW Sharkblade vs. Uro Soup. I have only watched around 8 matches, some by the very same streamers. Since the games were very long, I felt like I had some idea of the matchup. It's possible that I don't and UW players got more lucky. I feel like as much as I've played Modern, it doesn't take long for me to get a feel of a matchup, but I have nothing concrete here. Just my own feeling from watching 22 min. games of this matchup with similarly strong players at both ends.

I must have forgotten UR Delver or better known as the best deck to be using Ancestral Recall in. So, UR Delver was the 2nd best deck in the meta, right after Rhino Pod. People have complained about Tempo not being that good in Modern. The complaint has gone unchecked since 2011 up until today in 2020, with the exception of Ancestral Recall Delver for 3 months until bannings. That Delver deck is also a deck that would be unaffected by Veil of Summer because Delver = Bolt with Rebound, and the rest of the deck was Young Pyromancer and every flavor of Bolt, Forked Bolt, Burst Lightning. If I remember correctly, they had 2 Spell Pierce in the SB. Other than that, it was UR Aggro or as they call it on mtggoldfish, UR Blitz.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing Delver at the FNM level. I'm sure there are FNM players around the world that terrorized their FNMs with the deck. It just never had GP results, outside of 4 Ancestral Recall played in the deck. Heck, I'm 57-17 with Elementals. Am I going to claim that Elementals was a thing? No, even if I do believe it's stronger than people give it credit for. You can see the peak of Faeries by watching Yuta Takahashi play GPs. He cracked the top 16, I think, top 32 for sure, but never top 8ed. 99% of Faeries players could not do even close to that. I played Faeries mostly through Standard and it was Tier 0 at that point, but I would be super surprised to go 10-5 at a GP with Faeries, even with 2 Byes.

Veil is #2 of Modern cards played. Do you know what is #4 and #5? Aether Gust and Ashiok, Dream Render - 2 SB only cards. #9 is Relic of Progenitus, nearly a year after Faithless Looting was banned (*cough, Uro, cough).

I am not saying that Veil and T3feri don't create terrible game play. They do and there are also plenty of other Modern legal cards that do so. I've beaten someone in a match of Magic (without scooping or DQs) when they played 1 Plains and an Aether Vial in the whole match. Do you honestly think that Neobrand should survive, while Veil and T3feri are dunked on? I think at this point, WotC realizes that so many plays in Modern are silly that they are all right having 2 extreme versions of that. Ever faced an Arbor Elf into Sprawl, Bloodbraid Elf, Seasoned Pyromancer? Turn 2, 2nd Amulet, swing at you with a 10/6 Double Strike? I realize I'm giving a GROUP of cards, while Veil is just 1 card. T3f is 1 card. T3feri is a card that promotes even worse game play in my opinion, but it can't be banned because it's not played enough. Veil is a card that is very close. I see it as 50/50. But it hasn't done enough, although yes, some consequences can't be seen (ie. Death's Shadow player playing Prowess to dodge it) to get it banned yet. If decks started mainboarding it a lot, then I could see it getting banned. Remember, at different times in Modern, Rest in Peace and Stony Silence were up there in cards played, and they were out of the SB. I remember thinking, White sucks in Modern and very badly. Yet, somehow Path to Exile, Stony Silence, and Rest in Peace are always present. Mox Opal took Stony Silence on his way out and Faithless Looting took Rest in Peace on her way out. That's the only reason we don't see those cards in huge numbers still to this day.

People always have an irrational fear of Combo.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
Combo is at 15% and out of the decks over 1%, only 3 of 11 run Veil of Summer. A common misconception is that Amulet runs Veil of Summer. It doesn't. It does run 4 Aether Gust in the SB though.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

th33l3x
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

the thing is that Veil being overpowered can easily be argued in a vacuum. There really is no need to put it in a metagame context imo. Because while there are a lot of playable non-interactive cards in blue and black, the majority of playable cards in these colors is in fact interactive. Any counter, any discard, any removal spell that is blue or black. That includes all the BG permanent removal, all discard, all counters, etc.

With that in mind, Veil is simply a clean 2-for-1 vs blue and black. For 1cmc. At instant speed. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's obviously and COMPLETELY UNDISPUTABLY overpowered for modern.

And tbh, I am %$#% sick and tired of people claiming otherwise. The card is straight up indefensible.

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AvalonAurora
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
People always have an irrational fear of Combo.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
Combo is at 15% and out of the decks over 1%, only 3 of 11 run Veil of Summer. A common misconception is that Amulet runs Veil of Summer. It doesn't. It does run 4 Aether Gust in the SB though.
Lol, aggro looks crazy when you don't have categories for ramp, midrange, or tempo. Or maybe it is crazy right now, didn't check exactly which decks were put in which categories.

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