[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
pierreb wrote:
8 months ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
8 months ago
I'm simply calling out that holding one opinion is ultimately the same as holding the other
Two key differences:
  • The card *is* banned, so being pro-twin means your view is contrary to the views of those in control of the ban list.
  • Anti-twin don't bring up the subject over and over. Only the pro-twin do. Which is like 1/3 of all posts (or so it seems).
Just because a card is banned doesn't mean it is the correct decision (as originally defined by WotC). See Bridge from Below.

I will give it to you there. The Pro-Twin side does bring it up.
I don't know if I agree with that. Because if it is even mentioned in passing, as not even the main point of a reply, it is devoured by Twin-haters left and right. Which is exactly how this entire discussion for the last two pages began. Go ahead and reread the first post in that chain and tell me that my intention was to discuss Twin. And not say, categorize different types of banned cards based on goals and intentions with regards to Tron. Which itself was a continuation on a broader interpretive discussion on WOTC ban decisions and criteria as a whole. Could I have just not said the small part? Sure. But its also why I put it tiny at the end, along with classification of Looting, because some smartaleck usually comes in and ak-chew-a-lee's about how WOTC didn't intend to destroy it. I mean FFS, some of y'all JUMP at a moment's notice when ever someone even dares to imply that something might not be perfect about the banning of the most controversial card in all of Magic. Why don't YOU* get over it? Ignore the comments, and discuss something else, instead of constantly and aggressively engaging?

* "You" referring broadly to those who do this frequently, not you, user @FoodChainGoblins ;)

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
I don't know if I agree with that. Because if it is even mentioned in passing, as not even the main point of a reply, it is devoured by Twin-haters left and right. Which is exactly how this entire discussion for the last two pages began. Go ahead and reread the first post in that chain and tell me that my intention was to discuss Twin. And not say, categorize different types of banned cards based on goals and intentions with regards to Tron. Which itself was a continuation on a broader interpretive discussion on WOTC ban decisions and criteria as a whole. Could I have just not said the small part? Sure. But its also why I put it tiny at the end, along with classification of Looting, because some smartaleck usually comes in and ak-chew-a-lee's about how WOTC didn't intend to destroy it. I mean FFS, some of y'all JUMP at a moment's notice when ever someone even dares to imply that something might not be perfect about the banning of the most controversial card in all of Magic. Why don't YOU* get over it? Ignore the comments, and discuss something else, instead of constantly and aggressively engaging?

* "You" referring broadly to those who do this frequently, not you, user @FoodChainGoblins ;)
This post is making me examine myself. I am being totally honest that at that point, I actually did feel like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and moving on to Restoration Angel would indeed keep the deck somewhat competitive. I guess I really did not realize the magnitude of the loss. Besides, I actually think that banning Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin were both meant to send the decks to the shadow realm. Amulet only got competitive because of so many future printings, which Twin did not have the ability to do.

But the reason I need to reexamine myself is that I always say that everyone "knew that Bridge from Below was not the problem and that Hogaak was." I am wrong in saying that. Perhaps many people thought, just like WotC did, that the Bridge banning was enough to keep the newer card? A lot of people agreed with the ban.

I also think that you can let some of it slide. I learned a long time ago, sometimes you just gotta allow people to slide on some things they say. You're not going to change people. On FB, I read people make comments like our President is great towards women. I am suuuuuuuper tempted to make a reply, but have to hold my tongue. Why? It's not gonna change their views. He could literally line up 500 women at a shooting line and it would not change a single person's view. Why waste my breath?
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
But the reason I need to reexamine myself is that I always say that everyone "knew that Bridge from Below was not the problem and that Hogaak was." I am wrong in saying that. Perhaps many people thought, just like WotC did, that the Bridge banning was enough to keep the newer card? A lot of people agreed with the ban.
Honestly, Bridge was absolutely the wrong ban. I'd probably rail against that one too if I didn't have such apathy for the card. I wouldn't mind either way if it comes back, but I don't have a strong enough opinion to keep it in the front of my mind. Other than Hogaak, it never really did anything outside of a quirky Tier 2/3 deck.

However, it does serve another example of WOTC both not wanting to target "the new card" and acting in reaction to community outrage; a hallmark feature of many bans of the past 4 years.

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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

Wraithpk wrote:
8 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago

If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
It's never a 90% consensus before cards get unbanned. Cards like Jace and SFM were probably only like 40 or 50% in polls on here and reddit. If a card is ever a 90% consensus to be unbanned, it should have been unbanned long before that.
The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
the current decks that I use have a bad matchup to Twin. For wanting it to stay banned,.. my Mono Red Prowess would have to be converted to ur to have a better chance. On wanting it unbanned, I have a bunch of spellskite and some other twin related cards that I want to sell -- which would certainly go up in price if the deck is unbanned.

anyway, can take no more twin discussion... it's tiresome...

/taking a break from this thread for some days
I dunno, Prowess would probably be pretty good against Twin. It's a fast and aggressive deck, and you can protect your creatures from Bolts with Mutagenic Growth.
My point was there is not an overwhelming majority of players who want it, more like an even split. There may never have been a 90 pc consensus on cards being unbanned, but I suspect that there probably was with Nactyl, whilst others never got near it, I agree. I was not really talking about the merits of the card or the numbers needed in the unban process.

If there was a massive majority we would have it. There is not a huge majority in favour of it like there is with Brainstorm in Legacy, which is what keeps that card in its format. That does not preclude having it back on another split, of course, but it does preclude utter bollocks (TM,) statements that a large majority of Modern players want it back, statements repeated often only by the more tone deaf minority of the many Twin proponents in various places. Many Twin propenents do not make the claim that Modern players as a whole want it back, because they know and accept that it is a polarising card, and instead argue it would be good for the format, which is much more easy to construct an argument about than pretending there is a large number in favour of a return when there is no data even anecdotally, to support it. A large number of players do want it back, sure, but a large number do not, and most reasonable people know that opinion is divided.
Last edited by drmarkb 8 months ago, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
8 months ago
I wouldn't buy the full art foils, I believe Uro/Mystic will be banned within 8 months or less.
I think Oko will be in Legacy whilst Uro stays in Modern, both for at least a year. Then, quietly, you might see them go, when wotc put out the next Standard fire.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

Wraithpk wrote:
8 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago

If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
It's never a 90% consensus before cards get unbanned. Cards like Jace and SFM were probably only like 40 or 50% in polls on here and reddit. If a card is ever a 90% consensus to be unbanned, it should have been unbanned long before that.
The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
the current decks that I use have a bad matchup to Twin. For wanting it to stay banned,.. my Mono Red Prowess would have to be converted to ur to have a better chance. On wanting it unbanned, I have a bunch of spellskite and some other twin related cards that I want to sell -- which would certainly go up in price if the deck is unbanned.

anyway, can take no more twin discussion... it's tiresome...

/taking a break from this thread for some days
I dunno, Prowess would probably be pretty good against Twin. It's a fast and aggressive deck, and you can protect your creatures from Bolts with Mutagenic Growth.
sorry late reply, I had little mental strength when it's twin related chat. Players protesting in it's banning has now gone longer than the siege of leningrad. lol

I feel it's in favor of twin.. simply because there is a possible instant kill combo on turn 4, and they can survive for awhile with plenty of flash creatures to put in the way of my swiftspear. And I'm lazy... don't want to splash.. if twin comes back, would have to splash blue for counters... or splash a bit of black for rakdos charm. :omg:

surely, someday wotc would allow this card back into modern.

that's all I have to say on this.
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
Many Twin propenents do not make the claim that Modern players as a whole want it back, because they know and accept that it is a polarising card, and instead argue it would be good for the format, which is much more easy to construct an argument about than pretending there is a large number in favour of a return when there is no data even anecdotally, to support it. A large number of players do want it back, sure, but a large number do not, and most reasonable people know that opinion is divided.
that's reasonable. I like your post.
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Post by Peterhausenn » 8 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
@drmarkb
Remember that commander was once an experimental format and it ended up becoming a goldmine for wizards.
commander, or more properly EDH, wasnt an experimental format. while it wasnt the go to casual experience that it is now it was quite popular when wotc began to co-op it. even before the official releases in 2011 it may have been "underground", but it wasnt unknown. there were websites dedicated to it, articles written about it, and players gathering at events and kitchen tables worldwide to play it. it was simply a homegrown format outside of wotcs scope which incidentally is probably why it became the most popular format.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
sorry late reply, I had little mental strength when it's twin related chat. Players protesting in it's banning has now gone longer than the siege of leningrad. lol
As a thought experiment, do you ever wonder why that is? And why pretty much no other ban has created such a reaction? You don't need to reply, just giving something to think about.

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Post by Ed06288 » 8 months ago

I forgot that Commander was a homebrew format. But I think the point remains, wizards wants to discover new formats that make them money.
@cfusionpm In case you're feeling alone, I was pretty upset when Twin was banned. But I've continued to build decks I enjoy and still love modern. I insist that modern is in a good spot right now and you should find a playgroup or play mtgo or something.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
I insist that modern is in a good spot right now and you should find a playgroup or play mtgo or something.
What gave you the impression that I don't? I have been regularly playing several different modern decks online, and have mentioned as much in this thread. Ironically, I feel most of the people who seem to have a problem with me don't actually read what I post, and instead simply infer whatever they want after seeing a few key trigger words.

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Post by Ed06288 » 8 months ago

Well with covid going on and everything, I figured people are under the impression that no paper magic is being played, which isn't exactly true.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 8 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
Well with covid going on and everything, I figured people are under the impression that no paper magic is being played, which isn't exactly true.
It IS true, to a point. It is true for me, someone who lives in California. Nobody in California or Florida is playing large Magic tournaments; I can guarantee you that. Now some of the smaller (population) states actually did take the virus seriously and have barely any cases. There are some FNM tournaments going on there, but those don't usually have all that many players pre-virus anyway. Many other countries have leaders that DID take the virus very seriously and the citizens worked together to make sure it didn't spread. I've heard accounts of FNMs in Kentucky, USA and Taipei among others.

So, for many people, yes, they can do paper Magic. For me, living in California, no, nothing is open. Grand Prixs, SCG Opens, and PPTQs/RPTQs are all canceled across the U.S. I feel like they're also canceled across the whole world for now, as WotC has determined.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
So, for many people, yes, they can do paper Magic. For me, living in California, no, nothing is open. Grand Prixs, SCG Opens, and PPTQs/RPTQs are all canceled across the U.S. I feel like they're also canceled across the whole world for now, as WotC has determined.
Very much (also California resident). Nothing is open, nor should it be until our state (and country as a whole) wraps their heads around treating this pandemic with the seriousness it deserves.

In the meantime, I get about once every two weeks a Zoom Commander game with friends, and routinely get in as much MTGO as I can before the school year starts (next week). Sultai Uro has been amazing, and I think it is a much better core than Astrolabe-less Bant.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

@cfusionpm

honest answer is I don't understand why people are still bent on this issue. Maybe because I was not so invested in the deck? not sure.

to keep up on this for so many years feels weird? and I don't say that in a funny or insulting manner.

have already recovered from the financial loss of losing the deck by selling tarns, so I have moved on.
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
@cfusionpm

honest answer is I don't understand why people are still bent on this issue. Maybe because I was not so invested in the deck? not sure.

to keep up on this for so many years feels weird? and I don't say that in a funny or insulting manner.

have already recovered from the financial loss of losing the deck by selling tarns, so I have moved on.
I mean, everything has been said a number of times, but as succinctly as possible: A lot of people loved the deck, it had not met or exceeded any previously established ban criteria, it was a deck that just saw half a dozen pieces reprinted for it months beforehand, it was a deck that was always "good" but never "dominant", and was frequently seen as a positive force for quelling linear nonsense (the exact thing that made the following entire year a dumpster fire), even in the face of a triple GP top 8, which itself was a product of its positive matchup with Bloom Titan, a busted, broken deck. Its ban came as a shock and surprise by pretty much everyone. None of their written justifications made any sense and all have proven demonstrably false or laughably incorrect. So the general consensus was that Twin fell on the sword in order to artificially shake up the PT. In the following years myths and legends grew the deck into this unstoppable, unbeatable force that was Eldrazi/Hogaak levels of domination, when the realities were nothing remotely close to that. All the while, many persistent people who simply didn't like the deck love to rub salt in the wounds and aggressively engage or troll those who feel that maybe, just maybe a deck that gets utterly wrecked by basic main deck interaction, and has received no meaningful updates (while a TON of stuff that beats up on it got WAY better, in a significantly more powerful and hostile format) should be brought back to right the wrongs of the past. /shrug

What other ban has been remotely as controversial?

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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

Cfusion - I get it man. Some decks just scratch a certain itch and nothing else can quite take it's place. I cetainly have decks that I love no matter what. But you have to let it go at SOME point... It's gone and it's never coming back Right wrong or indifferent let's try and move the discussion to what modern IS CURRENTLY instead of what it was or what it could be if twin was back.
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Post by DarthDrac » 8 months ago

A lot of players loved Mox Opal decks, be it Hardened Scales or Cheerios... Nobody likes their deck being banned out of the format. I liked Phoenix, it was a solid deck, but I loved Hollow One, both decks were killed by the Faithless Looting ban, ironically Dredge is fine... Dredge doesn't particularly feel like playing Magic, in the same way the cycling deck in Standard doesn't, but if you want to play a graveyard deck, it's the only real option now.

What I really wonder is, is it just the sales factor that stops WotC banning new cards? Hogaak is busted, ban it, Urza is busted, ban it, this would seem preferable (for established players) to banning established cards and decks out of the formats... For example Underworld Breach could've been joined by Heliod and Thassa's Oracle as the Pioneer bans, letting WotC say oops Theros set slipped through the cracks... If it was clear that WotC will ban a new busted card, the singles prices might be more stable, Hogaak was the exception rather than the rule since it wasn't printed in a standard set, I guess Oko, is a good example, but here, they only acted to prevent all formats being 3/3 elk!

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

robertleva wrote:
8 months ago
Cfusion - I get it man. Some decks just scratch a certain itch and nothing else can quite take it's place. I cetainly have decks that I love no matter what. But you have to let it go at SOME point... It's gone and it's never coming back Right wrong or indifferent let's try and move the discussion to what modern IS CURRENTLY instead of what it was or what it could be if twin was back.
Someone asked, I answered. Nothing more nothing less. :$

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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
sorry late reply, I had little mental strength when it's twin related chat. Players protesting in it's banning has now gone longer than the siege of leningrad. lol
As a thought experiment, do you ever wonder why that is? And why pretty much no other ban has created such a reaction? You don't need to reply, just giving something to think about.
My guess is that it is two fold. One, people playing Twin BGx all the time thought it was great because a a less experienced player on either side of the match lost. Many who enjoyed BGx vs twin vs affinity etc. and thought it was a great meta, one that kept Tron down. This also explains why people hate it as this particular meta excluded archetypes,such as hatebears (which at the time were all 2cc and 3cc with no 1cc mother of runes type playables) or straight all in combo (both of which also gave the then Tron a hard time, incidentally). Bolt, snap, bolt is still popular in Delver Legacy, UR is a popular combo, although in Legacy many decks get an I win button.

The second reason is there was a body of opinion that the card would never be banned. This body of opinion did not extend to finance orientated players, but those who just played Modern were convinced it would not be banned.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Hot take: Legacy is irrelevant to Modern.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Hot take: Legacy is irrelevant to Modern.
While I do think this is true for the most part, WotC has confused us with various tweets (in the past, but still).

"If you want to play Stoneforge Mystic or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, there is another format in which both are legal and very good."
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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Hot take: Legacy is irrelevant to Modern.
More relevant than Twin is though.
That includes Twin metas in bedrooms, if Twin would be safe, and why it was banned and what the problem cards are with Twin (hottest take to date- it is Twin).
None are relevant. It is gone. It is not coming back.
My whole post was irrelevant to Modern. As was yours- you did ask why you are still discussing Twin and not others- the answer being you enjoyed it basically and still want to play it and can't. Correctly in my view for Modern, as you know because everyone has given their opinion on it. . ' I win' buttons are for other formats, Twin players need to stop asking to bring a gun to a knife fight or amending the ban list so that they can. The gun fights are over there, that is where Legacy comes in- the style of deck you want is in that format, not Modern. Same for Pioneer, which is why they eventually took action there- people do not want A plus B combo there, even if the shell it supports is good rather than great.

To be fair ban lists do match up slightly between formats, they leave newer cards in one format if they can, so you do need to keep an eye, what happens in one format influences others. No formats exist in a vacuum, there is always entanglement between them.
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
None are relevant. It is gone. It is not coming back.

Remember when people said that about Jace? And Stoneforge?
My whole post was irrelevant to Modern. As was yours-
One of those topics did, and could, exist in Modern, and was a series of broader looks at banlist criteria for our format. One of them discusses a format that for all practical purposes does not exist in paper and is crippled by a Reserve List that makes playing it legitimately prohibitively expensive.

You clearly don't seem to care about the 'why' so maybe just ignore it and bring up other topics to discuss?

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

on something else. Does anyone know the date when Zen III would be available?
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Zendikar Rising releases September 25th. Spoilers likely start in 3 weeks or so? Confirmed no fetchlands in main set, but MaRo said he's getting "a land cycle he has wanted to put into a set for many years." So at least it's not another lump of Temples?

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