[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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robertleva
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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

That's not a good reason for a deck to be banned or stay banned. A lot of people hate Tron, is that a good reason to ban it?
In my opinion, YES! If you read the last ban list announcement for the Pioneer section, they specifically list toxic play pattern and unfun metas as the reason for banning all those annoying decks. Not because of high win rates or because they were too strong.

Tron is a degenerate, brain-dead strat that feels awful to lose to. I don't think there is a deck with less meaningful decision tree in modern. So when you take days / weeks / months crafting a fair, unique deck with interesting decision trees and play lines only to insta-lose to a Turn 3 karn, you have a %$#% experience with the format.

WOTC should delete these types of toxic decks, regardless of their power level, because it's HEALTHY for the format. It worked in Pioneer, it can work here too,
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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Yay more Twin talk. Fans of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card creates play patterns in the game that enough people find obnoxious that it stays banned. I dont care about win rates. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Is Dead.

#letitgo
Yay more Twin talk. Opponents of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card was never really dominant by meta share and enough people want it unbanned to give it a fair look in Modern. I dont care about playability of the card. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Should. Not. Be. Banned.

#letitgo

It goes both ways.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

What wotc wants, and what players want are very different.
WOTC have wanted Legacy gone for ages- but thanks to RL it is a good place to have money- ironically if they cut the RL it would not be as attractive- but then the RL keeps the barrier to entry that WOTC *definitely* want. It literally has zero support, so there are no more rugs to be pulled. Hugely popular in Japan, Europe with very little official support, and with prices as they are there are a lot of US citizens with the cards who are not selling.

We need to get one thing clear - Pioneer will survive- regardless of how good it is- it will survive. Modern players can keep their format if, and only if, they want to, but it will not be at Pioneers' expense either. All wotc need to do is make big paper pioneer events- that will keep people playing just like it did back in the dark days of dredge/eldrazi/whatever in Modern. Pioneer is inherently flawed- as is modern- as the game has drifted towards permanents and specifically threats that snowball. It is clear that the tools to stop degeneracy are weaker than ideal for Pioneer- the ban list is full of threats and enablers, and very few answers because answers are not a problem and threats are. Recent printings of cards like necromentia give sideboard options for decks with key combo components, and the smaller pool of combo cards is theoretically easier to deal with, but such is the design in the last five years that there is a danger. As time elapses combos will slip through. This happened in Legacy as Rest in peace opened up Helm, Painter opened up Grindstone, and Stage opened up Depths, Thassa's oracle opened up Paradigm shift etc. Pioneer will be the same, and bans will happen as more cards that enable "win the game" exist.


For myself I think there is perhaps a potential to exist with all 3 formats (excluding vintage where paper vintage is near dead), but it is a real long shot. It would need a lot to go right, most likely Pioneer survives as a serious format, Legacy as a community one and Modern players disperse between the two.....

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Yay more Twin talk. Fans of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card creates play patterns in the game that enough people find obnoxious that it stays banned. I dont care about win rates. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Is Dead.

#letitgo
Yay more Twin talk. Opponents of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card was never really dominant by meta share and enough people want it unbanned to give it a fair look in Modern. I dont care about playability of the card. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Should. Not. Be. Banned.

#letitgo

It goes both ways.
Any evidence that people want it unbanned? I mean obviously there are some here, but WOTC monitor these things on feedback.
If they thought it was overwhelmingly wanted it would be back already.
I would not play the format ever again with the card legal. It is a polarising card. I would happily burn every copy of this card and print some more just to burn just to be rid of the constant bring back twin talk. I owned two twin decks in paper, I won a lot with it and it felt bad to win with it. I play PRISON in Legacy and Canlander, so I am not averse to making people have a bad time. Only BG-X felt like fair fights, and the only good thing about the deck was beating Tron. Every. Time.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
Yay more Twin talk. Fans of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card creates play patterns in the game that enough people find obnoxious that it stays banned. I dont care about win rates. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Is Dead.

#letitgo
Yay more Twin talk. Opponents of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card was never really dominant by meta share and enough people want it unbanned to give it a fair look in Modern. I dont care about playability of the card. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Should. Not. Be. Banned.

#letitgo

It goes both ways.
Any evidence that people want it unbanned? I mean obviously there are some here, but WOTC monitor these things on feedback.
If they thought it was overwhelmingly wanted it would be back already.

I would not play the format ever again with the card legal. It is a polarising card. I would happily burn every copy of this card and print some more just to burn just to be rid of the constant bring back twin talk. I owned two twin decks in paper, I won a lot with it and it felt bad to win with it. I play PRISON in Legacy and Canlander, so I am not averse to making people have a bad time. Only BG-X felt like fair fights, and the only good thing about the deck was beating Tron. Every. Time.
In reference to the bold: Are you so certain? WotC doesn't do what the player base wants unless there's a large enough outcry to not ignore the players anymore. Look through this very thread and you'll find endless complaints that WotC's actions are pretty much unpredictable/unreliable. Also, SFM is a glaring example a card that has been historically desired by the player base but routinely NOT unbanned despite. It took them far longer to unban it than it ever should have.

I'm not speaking to legitimacy of the claims on either side (tho I personally fall into the Twin apologist bias, I'll admit that), but I'm simply calling out that holding one opinion is ultimately the same as holding the other — both sides present "data", neither side accepts the other side's "data", and both get tired of arguing the claims the other puts out as a result. Simply dragging on Twin talk, either from the pro-Twin or anti-Twin viewpoint, is actually contributing to the very problem that makes Twin talk so exhausting.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

WotC doesn't do what the player base wants unless there's a large enough outcry to not ignore the players anymore.
That's exactly his point. There isn't enough outcry to get their attention and never was.

EDIT: Look can anyone give me a brief list of what decks are trending in Modern right now? I keep coming here waiting for that type of info but its always twin stuff for last 3 years.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: Look can anyone give me a brief list of what decks are trending in Modern right now? I keep coming here waiting for that type of info but its always twin stuff for last 3 years.
I don't play online. I do watch streams from some of the more popular Modern players, so here's my 2 cents. Paper is dead right now, so I'm only going to say what I see online.

E Tron, Red Prowess and UR Prowess, and Mystic Sanctuary decks are the top decks right now. E Tron is just that - Eldrazi Tron. Prowess is in 2 categories - the slower, yet more consistent, UR Prowess, and the more inexpensive, Red Prowess. Mystic Sanctuary decks are into the categories of UW Sharkblade, Temur/Sultai/Bant Reclamation, and possibly Sultai (non Reclamation) Control or Temur Scapeshift.

There are some other decks like Jund Shadow and Humans. Probably a bunch that I'm missing right now. Oh yeah, Dredge.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: Look can anyone give me a brief list of what decks are trending in Modern right now? I keep coming here waiting for that type of info but its always twin stuff for last 3 years.
Honestly, r/ModernMagic may be a better place to visit. This forum (and especially this thread) has seemed to shrink considerably. There is basically zero activity in all of the rest of the Modern sub forum, and this thread has like half a dozen active members.

But the long and short of it is that we only have basic estimations and guesses based on incomplete/misleading data and personal anecdotes. There's nothing to discuss because there's no meaningful substance to talk *about.* It's especially irrelevant when paper tournaments don't exist, and online rental services assure that weird random brews will permeate all forms of online play.

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Post by robertleva » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: Look can anyone give me a brief list of what decks are trending in Modern right now? I keep coming here waiting for that type of info but its always twin stuff for last 3 years.
Honestly, r/ModernMagic may be a better place to visit. This forum (and especially this thread) has seemed to shrink considerably. There is basically zero activity in all of the rest of the Modern sub forum, and this thread has like half a dozen active members.

But the long and short of it is that we only have basic estimations and guesses based on incomplete/misleading data and personal anecdotes. There's nothing to discuss because there's no meaningful substance to talk *about.* It's especially irrelevant when paper tournaments don't exist, and online rental services assure that weird random brews will permeate all forms of online play.
What boggles my mind is how the absurd level of moderation on this forum somehow never addressed THIS never ending issue on the most popular / only active thread in modern. You can't even fart in the wrong direction in any other thread without getting a warning / thread insta locked. Meanwhile the never ending circular twin-talk on this thread has driven away any meaningful discussion.

I mean if you are going to maximum-level moderate a forum, can you at least be consistent??
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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago


Yay more Twin talk. Opponents of the card don't want to / refuse to admit that the card was never really dominant by meta share and enough people want it unbanned to give it a fair look in Modern. I dont care about playability of the card. I dont care about other combo's being better. This Card. Should. Not. Be. Banned.

#letitgo

It goes both ways.
Any evidence that people want it unbanned? I mean obviously there are some here, but WOTC monitor these things on feedback.
If they thought it was overwhelmingly wanted it would be back already.

I would not play the format ever again with the card legal. It is a polarising card. I would happily burn every copy of this card and print some more just to burn just to be rid of the constant bring back twin talk. I owned two twin decks in paper, I won a lot with it and it felt bad to win with it. I play PRISON in Legacy and Canlander, so I am not averse to making people have a bad time. Only BG-X felt like fair fights, and the only good thing about the deck was beating Tron. Every. Time.
In reference to the bold: Are you so certain? WotC doesn't do what the player base wants unless there's a large enough outcry to not ignore the players anymore. Look through this very thread and you'll find endless complaints that WotC's actions are pretty much unpredictable/unreliable. Also, SFM is a glaring example a card that has been historically desired by the player base but routinely NOT unbanned despite. It took them far longer to unban it than it ever should have.

I'm not speaking to legitimacy of the claims on either side (tho I personally fall into the Twin apologist bias, I'll admit that), but I'm simply calling out that holding one opinion is ultimately the same as holding the other — both sides present "data", neither side accepts the other side's "data", and both get tired of arguing the claims the other puts out as a result. Simply dragging on Twin talk, either from the pro-Twin or anti-Twin viewpoint, is actually contributing to the very problem that makes Twin talk so exhausting.
I am sure that if they thought it was overwhelmingly desired it would be back, yes. I am also one if those bemoaning their inconsistency on those threads. I can't really compare SFM to Twin. I certainly do not think there was a huge player demand for SFM, if anything there was less demand than for Twin. I do think there were plenty of players who thought SFM is safe, in the same way Mind Twist is acknowledged safe in Legacy but is not clamour for. I also know that unlike the Twist SFM went up and down each announcement, but that was Finance as much as anything.
Generally if it is overwhelmingly wanted it happens. The exceptions are pushed recent mythics (keyword recent) like Oko. Oko got banned slowly and surely because it was recent. Breach was banned in Legacy after an eternity it felt like, it was instantly broken. The other exceptions are reprints, such as fetches. Bans like Top happen in Legacy due to player opinion, and Brainstorm survives for the same reason, bans generally happen because of players. Unbans tend to be distraction tactics, but again can be player pressure. Twin is divisive, the upside of unbanning is not as clear as the Top ban in Legacy, even then everyone wanted Mirackes to get hit, but a significant number wanted Top not to be the one to go.

If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
My experience on reddit and twitter is that a number of Twin haters have an extremely weak understanding of the deck, and many have likely never played when it was legal. I have, on more occasions than I'd like, had to point out things like how Spellskite actually works because someone didn't believe/understand how it stops the combo, or explain when to time a removal spell because someone thought they could just "combo in reaponse," or deal with people saying Twin "always had the combo turn 4" or how "it was a nightmare, winning everything all the time" and other exaggerated nonsense.

There isn't support because people who hate the deck and/or don't have adequate experience with it are perpetuating myths and legends that make it seem like Hogaak/Eldrazi Winter levels of opression, instead of simply "a great deck among other great decks. Probably the best, but not by a huge margin."

Subtlety and nuance doesn't seem to be able to exist in the age of social media. It's just a constant war of extreme hot takes and surface-level gut reactions. This is not unique to our game.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
that is my opinion as well. Have known some people who don't like the deck.

and my stance is neutral. Fine if it comes back, also ok if it stay banned.
have moved on to other decks.. also sold my scalding tarn set years ago..
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
that is my opinion as well. Have known some people who don't like the deck.

and my stance is neutral. Fine if it comes back, also ok if it stay banned.
have moved on to other decks.. also sold my scalding tarn set years ago..
To be honest, it's probably 50/50. A lot of my playgroup is in the "don't want Twin back" category. I feel a lot of that is due to their own decks not having the best matchups vs. it, but regardless of what I think, they don't want it back. Likewise for many of the other cards that I bring up like Preordain, P Fire, or others. The one that at least some ... maybe 50% of my play group says is all right is Green Sun's Zenith. I feel it's because they realize how innocent it is, but some still don't think that it improves the format, so it's split.

For the people that are FOR an unbanning, it seems like the more "spikier" players, players who have played Modern longer and several different archetypes, and Pro Players seem leaning more toward an unbanning than not. I feel like it's the more FNM style players that don't want it back. Perhaps they were terrorized by certain players at their FNMs and possibly some of those players quit or haven't terrorized them quite as much? Either way, I feel like it's very close, close enough to Stoneforge Mystic levels. We know that one took forever to unban, so I don't think that Twin is locked away forever. But it could be for another 2 years and THAT is forever to some people.

*Like I've told people before, one guy at my LGS said "if they unban Jace, the Mind Sculptor," I will eat a Jace, the Mind Sculptor. They unbanned it a short time later. The catch was that you would have to pay for the Jace that he ate. Considering I sold a bunch of Jaces for $130 all the way down to $90 each right after their unbanning, I'm not paying $100 to prove him wrong when we already know so. Lol.
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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

the current decks that I use have a bad matchup to Twin. For wanting it to stay banned,.. my Mono Red Prowess would have to be converted to ur to have a better chance. On wanting it unbanned, I have a bunch of spellskite and some other twin related cards that I want to sell -- which would certainly go up in price if the deck is unbanned.

anyway, can take no more twin discussion... it's tiresome...

/taking a break from this thread for some days
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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago

If 90 pc of Moder players wanted it Twin would be back, but I feel it is closer to an even split.
It's never a 90% consensus before cards get unbanned. Cards like Jace and SFM were probably only like 40 or 50% in polls on here and reddit. If a card is ever a 90% consensus to be unbanned, it should have been unbanned long before that.
The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
the current decks that I use have a bad matchup to Twin. For wanting it to stay banned,.. my Mono Red Prowess would have to be converted to ur to have a better chance. On wanting it unbanned, I have a bunch of spellskite and some other twin related cards that I want to sell -- which would certainly go up in price if the deck is unbanned.

anyway, can take no more twin discussion... it's tiresome...

/taking a break from this thread for some days
I dunno, Prowess would probably be pretty good against Twin. It's a fast and aggressive deck, and you can protect your creatures from Bolts with Mutagenic Growth.
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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
EDIT: Look can anyone give me a brief list of what decks are trending in Modern right now? I keep coming here waiting for that type of info but its always twin stuff for last 3 years.
Honestly, r/ModernMagic may be a better place to visit. This forum (and especially this thread) has seemed to shrink considerably. There is basically zero activity in all of the rest of the Modern sub forum, and this thread has like half a dozen active members.

But the long and short of it is that we only have basic estimations and guesses based on incomplete/misleading data and personal anecdotes. There's nothing to discuss because there's no meaningful substance to talk *about.* It's especially irrelevant when paper tournaments don't exist, and online rental services assure that weird random brews will permeate all forms of online play.
What boggles my mind is how the absurd level of moderation on this forum somehow never addressed THIS never ending issue on the most popular / only active thread in modern. You can't even fart in the wrong direction in any other thread without getting a warning / thread insta locked. Meanwhile the never ending circular twin-talk on this thread has driven away any meaningful discussion.

I mean if you are going to maximum-level moderate a forum, can you at least be consistent??
this is so true. 3 postings = allways 1 warning to me I feel in overall since one year. I get warned so often for xy.... but always I come here the same %$#% I read. so it's logical people don't wrote here often anymore as usual. I knew some people here, even its now a while, they left because of this behavior. and I need to read warnings because I am trolling? I think the moderation here lost objective view of the problems here. it's not people like me. we are anyway now away or don't wrote often anymore

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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
I'm simply calling out that holding one opinion is ultimately the same as holding the other
Two key differences:
  • The card *is* banned, so being pro-twin means your view is contrary to the views of those in control of the ban list.
  • Anti-twin don't bring up the subject over and over. Only the pro-twin do. Which is like 1/3 of all posts (or so it seems).

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Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

So, it's kinda crazy that when Twin was banned I was in the Army, left the Army, got my master's degree, became a therapist...and some people on this forum STILL obsessively talk about this deck years later.

Real talk, Sultai Reclamation is wrecking modern right now; it's just criminally underplayed. I think it's won like 3 of the 4 recent challenges? What a gigantic mistake Santcum and Uro were. I think we may be looking at both of these cards as the next targets, which is absolutely fine, these two cards are atrociously designed. You truly have to justify not playing blue in any deck that wants to grind in any fashion. They are both too good. Either you play blue or an aggro deck that goes underneath. Or E-Tron.

Temur Scapeshift has felt like a struggle bus against Reclamation, in all truth. They can't out grind 4x Fact or Fiction and deal with and even amount/higher amount of counters. I do think Temur Scapeshift beats up on the other blue decks. Ashiok and Blood Moon are too popular for Scapeshift to be tier 1. I do think it's a solid tier 2 deck though.

WOTC's design team obliterated every format with UGx being so pushed. I do believe we are seeing the start of Uro (finally, right?) and possibly Sanctum going out the door as more casual players catch on to Reclamation.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
So, it's kinda crazy that when Twin was banned I was in the Army, left the Army, got my master's degree, became a therapist...and some people on this forum STILL obsessively talk about this deck years later.
I get it honestly. If you like a deck, you like it. I absolutely LOVED Pod and I was really, really, really good at playing it. At times wish I could still play it but, I tend to take the view that while nostalgia is ok at times, it's more effective to discuss the format as it is, and how it's developing than how it was. Twin is definitely brought up too often. Of course, by bringing it up right now to say it's brought up too often I'm guilty of that myself.
Real talk, Sultai Reclamation is wrecking modern right now; it's just criminally underplayed. I think it's won like 3 of the 4 recent challenges? What a gigantic mistake Santcum and Uro were. I think we may be looking at both of these cards as the next targets, which is absolutely fine, these two cards are atrociously designed. You truly have to justify not playing blue in any deck that wants to grind in any fashion. They are both too good. Either you play blue or an aggro deck that goes underneath. Or E-Tron.
Definitely kicking myself right now for not buying the foil full art Uro's because I was expecting a huge price drop. Might have to shell out for them regardless despite having already dropped more than I was really wanting to on some regular Uro's. Downside of having mostly alt art/foil cards right now I suppose. Kinda locks me into needing to do that on a card like this if I don't want to risk a judge call if/when paper resumes.

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Post by Spsiegel1987 » 1 year ago

I wouldn't buy the full art foils, I believe Uro/Mystic will be banned within 8 months or less.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
I wouldn't buy the full art foils, I believe Uro/Mystic will be banned within 8 months or less.
It's possible, I'm watching the meta for a bit longer before deciding. Right now the decks still seem decent but not too good. As always though, that can change. We're at least 4 months out from regular FNM's again, probably more like 6 in the area I'm in so there's plenty of time to decide. New printings that overpower or invalidate cards have shown over the last 1.75 years as well that future relevancy is nearly impossible to predict now as well.

It's a weird time right now since confidence in the game is down, reprints are high, and prices are down. It's either a fantastic buying opportunity or a fantastic opportunity to waste money. One of the biggest factors here is the future of Pioneer as well as the future of Arena both of which are going to have implications for Modern, specifically paper Modern.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Spsiegel1987 wrote:
1 year ago
So, it's kinda crazy that when Twin was banned I was in the Army, left the Army, got my master's degree, became a therapist...and some people on this forum STILL obsessively talk about this deck years later.
Since 2015, I left an 8-year career managing a Starbucks to go back to school and finish my postgraduate work to become a teacher. Passed several difficult exams, have taught full time at two different schools, and cleared my credential after two more years of scrutiny, weekly evaluation, and can become tenured at my current school as early as next year. I've spent the better part of the last 6 month completely re-designing a middle school math curriculum to function in distance learning. My wife and I also had our first child, a beautiful little girl who will be turning 2 in December.

People dwell on Twin because its ban was wrong when it happened and remains wrong to this day. It didn't just destroy a deck, but an entire archetype of play that a lot of players deeply loved (which has never been replicated in any way in the nearly 5 years since). If you hated the deck, cool. I hate a lot of decks, but most of them still don't deserve to be shamelessly banned. It also served as the first domino piece that led us into arguably the worst year Modern has ever had, and was a catalyst for so much pushback that WOTC effectively changed their entire banning criteria. People dwell on it because it is fundamentally the most important, influential, and controversial ban Modern has ever seen, and likely will ever see.

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

@drmarkb
From a business standpoint I would imagine WOTC wants to explore as many different formats as possible. Remember that commander was once an experimental format and it ended up becoming a goldmine for wizards. I think they're hoping lightning strikes twice. I actually expect stuff like historic or brawl to drop off should they become unpopular.

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

robertleva wrote:
1 year ago
I mean if you are going to maximum-level moderate a forum, can you at least be consistent??
I've seen other forum boards remove more controversial/outspoken members only for those forum boards to lose a lot of activity and stagnate. There just wasn't anybody to feed discussion into the boards anymore.

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
TheAnnihilator wrote:
1 year ago
I'm simply calling out that holding one opinion is ultimately the same as holding the other
Two key differences:
  • The card *is* banned, so being pro-twin means your view is contrary to the views of those in control of the ban list.
  • Anti-twin don't bring up the subject over and over. Only the pro-twin do. Which is like 1/3 of all posts (or so it seems).
Just because a card is banned doesn't mean it is the correct decision (as originally defined by WotC). See Bridge from Below.

I will give it to you there. The Pro-Twin side does bring it up. I would estimate it to be 1/10 of all posts, but it does seem like a lot at a certain point. Perhaps some people believe that the meta would be better off with it unbanned? It's not like someone is talking about unbanning Eye of Ugin or Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis. This is the State of Modern thread, where people are free to talk about cards that they believe should be banned or unbanned. If I believe that Companions should start the game in play and have Indestructible for the first 3 turns of the game, I'm free to mention that here. But yes, I understand that it's more the constant reminder. The best thing to do is don't engage or put on "ignore."

It's similar to the kind of posts that I see on FB that are political or to be more specific, about the presidential candidates. You can't really get people to change their point of view, mostly because they are so passionate about what they believe in that they just won't SEE anything different (myself included). People are passionate about Twin, among other cards. People are passionate about Modern becoming a more "fair" meta, with their own definitions of that. You never really are going to get someone to say, "yes, that was the correct ban. Yes, Modern is better without it. It is too powerful to ever be unbanned" and power creep and stupid cards like Oko are just FUEL to this fire. Can't we understand that?

*Just an example of something that could have gone horribly wrong. When Lurrus of the Dream-Den was played in every Modern deck that didn't have Yorion, Sky Nomad in the SB with the original Companion rules, many people wanted Mishra's Bauble banned. WotC made the right choice here, changing the Companion rule. Mishra's Bauble is now back to being an average card. Can you imagine if they banned Mishra's Bauble? Then they would have had to still do the Companion rule change. Mishra's Bauble would be forever stuck on the ban list and half the people in this thread would criticize anyone who says that Mishra's Bauble should not have been banned or should be unbanned. I single decision could have caused mayhem. And yes, many people don't give a %$#%. Mr. Tron player doesn't care about Bauble. Many others don't too. But that is no reason that it should be banned because of another card.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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