[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

That or they simply tuned them wrong. It's a popular theory that they do new things and deliberately push them, but they do new things every set, and outside of 2018/2019 most of it is cool but not broken. We just remember the broken stuff more.

I can definitely see how these would be hard to tune properly especially since the power levels of each vary so heavily by format.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

that's possible too. Well, they need to excite people to sell more packs. At least they nerfed companion, when it proved too much.. Lurrus everywhere.
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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
For me Jitte would boost all critter midrange decks, especially hatebears.
I think the main issue is it would be like smugglers' copter was in Pioneer, it would be everywhere in those type of decks. Thing is, there are not really those type of decks in the format. Hatebears, Merfolk, Goblins perhaps. Those decks need a boost.
I don't think it would. Because Jitte invalidates most board positions. It ceases to be a game of board positioning, and instead revolves solely around that card. All of those decks would, in matchups against each other devolve to who can get and keep a Jitte. This would then consolidate those decks into whatever best carries it and reduce diversity. In the current meta that's probably Eldrazi Tron fetched via Karn.
There are ways of permanently removing Jitte in White, Red, and Green, and colourless and generally maindeckable nowadays too, if you push abrade as maindeckable, whilst Blue has pretty theft at least.

I suspect that Stoneforge would be the biggest beneficiary if Jitte, and Karn would be one of the things keeping Jitte under control, rather than the other way round with Karn as the best package, and yeah, whilst Karn could fetch a Jitte, I certainly would not expect it to be the premier engine for Jitte. If it is at the point of fetching with men on board it is probably close to winning next turn regardless of what it fetches, so whilst it could be a Jitte for the win, in two turns, it will often just be something else.

I think if Modern had a better selection of lands that dealt with creatures and lands that dealt with lands it would be super safe to have Jitte, rather than debatable as it is. D n t is a great legacy deck to almost import to Modern and the mark of a healthy format, but in Legacy lands like maze of ith make sure the card does not get above its station.

I think that without a similar power card you will never see hatebears beyond tribal humans, which are not really hatebears, and they are one of the bio markers of a format. Modern is perilously close to putrid, rather than just unhealthy, for a variety of reasons, and can never return without a better balance of answers, none if which relates to Jitte, but it does to Jitte decks. When Thalia is good in Modern it will be a sign of renaissance.

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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
Those parts of the game are being phased out more and more. WotC has an idea of what players enjoy in Magic and they have felt for a long time that Prison, especially hard Prison, is not that
I'm not sure that's accurate, because they've printed several creatures and PW's that implement aspects of prison. Like I've said before, WotC wants the battlefield to matter. A prison deck that still involves some degree of meaningful attacking and blocking even if it severely limits one players options is likely to be considered ok by them. Decks that forego the combat step, for better or worse have a much tougher case to make.

For their balance problems the WAR planeswalkers did one thing right, it brought artifact/enchantment abilities to the battlefield in a way that all colors can interact with through attacking and blocking. Power levels are certainly off right now, but that general idea leads to a more interactive game which is what they're trying to show. Because the side of the game that involves in depth strategy and reading what your opponent might or might not have doesn't come across well when broadcasting events or even streaming them while board positions are easier to read especially to a widespread audience.
The term prison here, and specifically hard prison is used to mean one that removes combat steps eventually, not one one with prison elements, like d n t.
A prison deck here, in terms of this particular conversation, meant one where options become removed slowly, and inevitably that means combat is rapidly and completely removed from the equation until the Prison is broken. Pox, Moon Stompy, Stax, Lands, Stasis type things, rather than d n t or others. Wotc don't like hard prison, they have the data to show that people dislike it. Of course, they don't collect the data that the people who dislike it the most are players who do not know when to scoop, all force fed a diet of Standard, many of whom are rage quitters who dump the game when their dinasaur deck gets beaten by a real deck, and they don't collect the data that says people will spend 2k on a Tabernacle or 0.5k for an Abyss or Moat just to play with it because they enjoy it whilst being unable to purchase new product because it is not aimed at them.
So yes, they do print prison elements on creatures, but not cards to enable prison decks in the way we were talking about, if that makes sense.


Mtg will always be better for me when one side makes a 20/20 say, and the other player plays Humility and gets beaten over ten turns with a 1/1 Marit Lage, or an eot spell kills humility and a stack war happens meaning Marit Lage does nothing. I will take that over 'here is uro etc., I win in three turns if you Path it, two if you don't, and I will run over your Thalia'. Oh Uro/Oko/Companions/Zendikars' new broken UG thing* again * might have combat going for it, but combat won't save Modern.

On War walkers, I don't have an issue with War walkers especially, I just have an issue that I can't deal with any walker without using cards like O ring or creatures. I don't want to play creatures in Modern all the time. Tef 3 is not dominating Legacy, neither is Narset, which you would think they were aimed at. They have helped drift it towards Delver and away from Miracles, which due to Oko has become a good stuff pile deck. Modern's issue with War walkers is the same as its issue with the rest, the taxes are too weak on walkers, meaning the walker is always going to net value before it gets one for oned, but the war walkers I am not especially upset over, even if they are not well designed for any format. I do quite like Narset and Tef in Legacy, as it forces blue decks to deal with them meaning they have to run more counters and creatures, and have to run it themselves. Modern is not fifty shades of blue so that benefit is lost.

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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

I think the decks they have made a stand against are Graveyard (dredge) and Artifact control (Urza). These decks have the potential to ruin the fun of all the others in the format so they keep them in check. Honorable mention for Tron.

I haven't seen WOTC make any moves that telegraph they hate "prison" decks.
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Good ol' classic Tron has dodged any meaningful ban for its entire existence in Modern for nearly a decade. :dizzy:

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Post by Simto » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Good ol' classic Tron has dodged any meaningful ban for its entire existence in Modern for nearly a decade. :dizzy:
Let's keep it that way.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Good ol' classic Tron has dodged any meaningful ban for its entire existence in Modern for nearly a decade. :dizzy:
Tron is just another good deck, not broken.
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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Good ol' classic Tron has dodged any meaningful ban for its entire existence in Modern for nearly a decade. :dizzy:
Tron is just another good deck, not broken.
I would have agreed with that before the London Mulligan. 😅

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Post by Ed06288 » 8 months ago

I actually played tron tonight. Went 3-1 and won 4 boosters. Couldn't open anything good from the boosters. But still had fun. We had 12 people. Played against 2 stompy lists that looked like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3249952#paper

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Post by Simto » 8 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
I actually played tron tonight. Went 3-1 and won 4 boosters. Couldn't open anything good from the boosters. But still had fun. We had 12 people. Played against 2 stompy lists that looked like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3249952#paper
That deck looks really fun. I have a G/B stompy deck in Pioneer that wouldn't need a lot of tweaking to become that deck.
Do you know how well they did in the tournament you played?

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Post by blkdemonight » 8 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
Those parts of the game are being phased out more and more. WotC has an idea of what players enjoy in Magic and they have felt for a long time that Prison, especially hard Prison, is not that
I'm not sure that's accurate, because they've printed several creatures and PW's that implement aspects of prison. Like I've said before, WotC wants the battlefield to matter. A prison deck that still involves some degree of meaningful attacking and blocking even if it severely limits one players options is likely to be considered ok by them. Decks that forego the combat step, for better or worse have a much tougher case to make.

For their balance problems the WAR planeswalkers did one thing right, it brought artifact/enchantment abilities to the battlefield in a way that all colors can interact with through attacking and blocking. Power levels are certainly off right now, but that general idea leads to a more interactive game which is what they're trying to show. Because the side of the game that involves in depth strategy and reading what your opponent might or might not have doesn't come across well when broadcasting events or even streaming them while board positions are easier to read especially to a widespread audience.
The term prison here, and specifically hard prison is used to mean one that removes combat steps eventually, not one one with prison elements, like d n t.
A prison deck here, in terms of this particular conversation, meant one where options become removed slowly, and inevitably that means combat is rapidly and completely removed from the equation until the Prison is broken. Pox, Moon Stompy, Stax, Lands, Stasis type things, rather than d n t or others. Wotc don't like hard prison, they have the data to show that people dislike it. Of course, they don't collect the data that the people who dislike it the most are players who do not know when to scoop, all force fed a diet of Standard, many of whom are rage quitters who dump the game when their dinasaur deck gets beaten by a real deck, and they don't collect the data that says people will spend 2k on a Tabernacle or 0.5k for an Abyss or Moat just to play with it because they enjoy it whilst being unable to purchase new product because it is not aimed at them.
So yes, they do print prison elements on creatures, but not cards to enable prison decks in the way we were talking about, if that makes sense.


Mtg will always be better for me when one side makes a 20/20 say, and the other player plays Humility and gets beaten over ten turns with a 1/1 Marit Lage, or an eot spell kills humility and a stack war happens meaning Marit Lage does nothing. I will take that over 'here is uro etc., I win in three turns if you Path it, two if you don't, and I will run over your Thalia'. Oh Uro/Oko/Companions/Zendikars' new broken UG thing* again * might have combat going for it, but combat won't save Modern.

On War walkers, I don't have an issue with War walkers especially, I just have an issue that I can't deal with any walker without using cards like O ring or creatures. I don't want to play creatures in Modern all the time. Tef 3 is not dominating Legacy, neither is Narset, which you would think they were aimed at. They have helped drift it towards Delver and away from Miracles, which due to Oko has become a good stuff pile deck. Modern's issue with War walkers is the same as its issue with the rest, the taxes are too weak on walkers, meaning the walker is always going to net value before it gets one for oned, but the war walkers I am not especially upset over, even if they are not well designed for any format. I do quite like Narset and Tef in Legacy, as it forces blue decks to deal with them meaning they have to run more counters and creatures, and have to run it themselves. Modern is not fifty shades of blue so that benefit is lost.
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
Those parts of the game are being phased out more and more. WotC has an idea of what players enjoy in Magic and they have felt for a long time that Prison, especially hard Prison, is not that
I'm not sure that's accurate, because they've printed several creatures and PW's that implement aspects of prison. Like I've said before, WotC wants the battlefield to matter. A prison deck that still involves some degree of meaningful attacking and blocking even if it severely limits one players options is likely to be considered ok by them. Decks that forego the combat step, for better or worse have a much tougher case to make.

For their balance problems the WAR planeswalkers did one thing right, it brought artifact/enchantment abilities to the battlefield in a way that all colors can interact with through attacking and blocking. Power levels are certainly off right now, but that general idea leads to a more interactive game which is what they're trying to show. Because the side of the game that involves in depth strategy and reading what your opponent might or might not have doesn't come across well when broadcasting events or even streaming them while board positions are easier to read especially to a widespread audience.
The term prison here, and specifically hard prison is used to mean one that removes combat steps eventually, not one one with prison elements, like d n t.
A prison deck here, in terms of this particular conversation, meant one where options become removed slowly, and inevitably that means combat is rapidly and completely removed from the equation until the Prison is broken. Pox, Moon Stompy, Stax, Lands, Stasis type things, rather than d n t or others. Wotc don't like hard prison, they have the data to show that people dislike it. Of course, they don't collect the data that the people who dislike it the most are players who do not know when to scoop, all force fed a diet of Standard, many of whom are rage quitters who dump the game when their dinasaur deck gets beaten by a real deck, and they don't collect the data that says people will spend 2k on a Tabernacle or 0.5k for an Abyss or Moat just to play with it because they enjoy it whilst being unable to purchase new product because it is not aimed at them.
So yes, they do print prison elements on creatures, but not cards to enable prison decks in the way we were talking about, if that makes sense.


Mtg will always be better for me when one side makes a 20/20 say, and the other player plays Humility and gets beaten over ten turns with a 1/1 Marit Lage, or an eot spell kills humility and a stack war happens meaning Marit Lage does nothing. I will take that over 'here is uro etc., I win in three turns if you Path it, two if you don't, and I will run over your Thalia'. Oh Uro/Oko/Companions/Zendikars' new broken UG thing* again * might have combat going for it, but combat won't save Modern.

On War walkers, I don't have an issue with War walkers especially, I just have an issue that I can't deal with any walker without using cards like O ring or creatures. I don't want to play creatures in Modern all the time. Tef 3 is not dominating Legacy, neither is Narset, which you would think they were aimed at. They have helped drift it towards Delver and away from Miracles, which due to Oko has become a good stuff pile deck. Modern's issue with War walkers is the same as its issue with the rest, the taxes are too weak on walkers, meaning the walker is always going to net value before it gets one for oned, but the war walkers I am not especially upset over, even if they are not well designed for any format. I do quite like Narset and Tef in Legacy, as it forces blue decks to deal with them meaning they have to run more counters and creatures, and have to run it themselves. Modern is not fifty shades of blue so that benefit is lost.
This is part of the reason why Planeswalkers are getting pushed. Not only are planeswalkers easier to hit on the board state rather than artifacts due to color pie distribution, the real problem here is that Wizards still hesitates on the idea that each color on its own can deal with artifacts and enchantments while having their own counterspells.

War of the Spark planeswalkers were horribly designed solely for the fact they didn't print efficient pw killers like Deadbore and Red Elemental Blast within the same standard rotation that also included flexible mana fixing.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

blkdemonight wrote:
8 months ago
This is part of the reason why Planeswalkers are getting pushed. Not only are planeswalkers easier to hit on the board state rather than artifacts due to color pie distribution, the real problem here is that Wizards still hesitates on the idea that each color on its own can deal with artifacts and enchantments while having their own counterspells.

War of the Spark planeswalkers were horribly designed solely for the fact they didn't print efficient pw killers like Deadbore and Red Elemental Blast within the same standard rotation that also included flexible mana fixing.
I don't know if I agree with this. Artifacts generally don't have built-in self-protection abilities. Nearly every playable walker follows the pattern of (+) to generate value and (-) to protect self. Add in static abilities that prevent instant speed interaction, activating your possible answers, or even fetching lands to cast your spells to get rid of it, I'd say PWs are monumentally more frustrating to deal with than any given artifact.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
blkdemonight wrote:
8 months ago
This is part of the reason why Planeswalkers are getting pushed. Not only are planeswalkers easier to hit on the board state rather than artifacts due to color pie distribution, the real problem here is that Wizards still hesitates on the idea that each color on its own can deal with artifacts and enchantments while having their own counterspells.

War of the Spark planeswalkers were horribly designed solely for the fact they didn't print efficient pw killers like Deadbore and Red Elemental Blast within the same standard rotation that also included flexible mana fixing.
I don't know if I agree with this. Artifacts generally don't have built-in self-protection abilities. Nearly every playable walker follows the pattern of (+) to generate value and (-) to protect self. Add in static abilities that prevent instant speed interaction, activating your possible answers, or even fetching lands to cast your spells to get rid of it, I'd say PWs are monumentally more frustrating to deal with than any given artifact.
Coming from an Esper background, I would have agreed with you that walkers are harder to interact with, but having branched out into Amulet I have to disagree actually. UWx and URx both have ways to deal with artifacts both in play and on the stack. URx has more trouble with enchants, but UWx is fine there too mostly. Planeswalkers, as mentioned before simply have no good direct interaction (eg destroy/exile target planeswalker), so if you're playing a noncreature based deck, you're gonna see walkers as harder to interact with. But any deck that legitimately tries to present a board state is likely to have Burn spells and creatures to pressure walkers, but needs to draw limited sideboard cards to deal with artifacts/enchants. So really, which is harder to deal with is either a color or strategy divide, and depends on the deck.
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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
I don't know if I agree with this. Artifacts generally don't have built-in self-protection abilities. Nearly every playable walker follows the pattern of (+) to generate value and (-) to protect self. Add in static abilities that prevent instant speed interaction, activating your possible answers, or even fetching lands to cast your spells to get rid of it, I'd say PWs are monumentally more frustrating to deal with than any given artifact.
There are far more playable counterspells for non creatures than for creatures. Creatures have flash, they have haste, blockers get taken out with removal, and creatures interact with planeswalkers. Plus, they force the opponent to spend additional cards in protecting them. A removal spell like Shatter is simply 1 for 1, no board state, and maybe there's a counterspell. Most creatures however don't have the option of shattering an artifact where as almost all creatures can hit a PW.

There are far more playable cards in any deck that can deal with PW's than there are that deal with other non creature permanents.

I hate to do this, but I think it makes the point well. Lets take the tarmotwin list given here:
http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/wri ... tarmo-twin

And keep in mind that it was a meta where walkers were less relevant, and new cards hadn't yet been printed. Conversely artifacts were more relevant. 25 MB and 6 SB cards that interact with PW's. And 6 MB with 5 SB cards that deal with artifacts. 31 cards without trying to target PW's (it literally wasn't a meta concern) compared to 11 trying to target artifacts.

PW's are innately a lot easier to interact with. You actually have to go out of your way to not include cards that interact with them in some form.

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Post by Ed06288 » 8 months ago

Simto wrote:
8 months ago
Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
I actually played tron tonight. Went 3-1 and won 4 boosters. Couldn't open anything good from the boosters. But still had fun. We had 12 people. Played against 2 stompy lists that looked like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3249952#paper
That deck looks really fun. I have a G/B stompy deck in Pioneer that wouldn't need a lot of tweaking to become that deck.
Do you know how well they did in the tournament you played?
The one players was new and didn't prize, don't know his record. The other player went 2-2 and I lost to this gentleman because I couldn't answer his damping sphere. The deck is good but probably struggles against big mana, control and combo.

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Post by Simto » 8 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
Simto wrote:
8 months ago
Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
I actually played tron tonight. Went 3-1 and won 4 boosters. Couldn't open anything good from the boosters. But still had fun. We had 12 people. Played against 2 stompy lists that looked like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3249952#paper
That deck looks really fun. I have a G/B stompy deck in Pioneer that wouldn't need a lot of tweaking to become that deck.
Do you know how well they did in the tournament you played?
The one players was new and didn't prize, don't know his record. The other player went 2-2 and I lost to this gentleman because I couldn't answer his damping sphere. The deck is good but probably struggles against big mana, control and combo.
Thanks!
Yeah I can imagine it could be a little trouble, but I like those types of all or nothing rock and roll decks hehe. It looks like fun and I'd rather have fun and turn my brain off more than anything.
Wonder if it would be worth it to splash for black and add a couple of Assassin's Trophy in addition to some Damping Sphere in the sideboard.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
A removal spell like Shatter is simply 1 for 1
But that wasn't the point. The point was PWs sit there and accrue value turn after turn, in addition to protecting themselves. Most Artifacts (except maybe Vial) do not.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

Simto wrote:
8 months ago
Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago
Simto wrote:
8 months ago


That deck looks really fun. I have a G/B stompy deck in Pioneer that wouldn't need a lot of tweaking to become that deck.
Do you know how well they did in the tournament you played?
The one players was new and didn't prize, don't know his record. The other player went 2-2 and I lost to this gentleman because I couldn't answer his damping sphere. The deck is good but probably struggles against big mana, control and combo.
Thanks!
Yeah I can imagine it could be a little trouble, but I like those types of all or nothing rock and roll decks hehe. It looks like fun and I'd rather have fun and turn my brain off more than anything.
Wonder if it would be worth it to splash for black and add a couple of Assassin's Trophy in addition to some Damping Sphere in the sideboard.
that looks like a nice Stompy list. Glad to see the deck is still alive.

if you're asking if the deck can have a tiny splash black for removal.. then yes, it's possible to have some black for assassin's trophy. But only for the sideboard, so as not to dilute the main aggro plan.
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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
8 months ago
A removal spell like Shatter is simply 1 for 1
But that wasn't the point. The point was PWs sit there and accrue value turn after turn, in addition to protecting themselves. Most Artifacts (except maybe Vial) do not.
The value is in their on board ability. That's true regardless of if we're talking about something like Ashiok or something like Leonin Arbiter, or Mindlock Orb. The difference being that Ashiok is the one of those three that can be interacted with by the widest variety of cards.

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Post by drmarkb » 8 months ago

Walkers are much, much, much harder to deal with than artifacts or enchantments once you get away from creature heavy formats.

In Legacy or Vintage, many decks are close to critterless, and a couple of turns of Oko is gg pretty quickly.

Modern has more critters, but I would rather face any t3 artifact than t3 Karn....

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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
Walkers are much, much, much harder to deal with than artifacts or enchantments once you get away from creature heavy formats.

In Legacy or Vintage, many decks are close to critterless, and a couple of turns of Oko is gg pretty quickly.

Modern has more critters, but I would rather face any t3 artifact than t3 Karn....
That's true, but that's also changing over time as more creatures become relevant... which is essentially what you get when WotC pushes them so much. Plus, we were mostly discussing Modern in this context. If you look at Legacy or Vintage, much of the creature/pw advantage they bring to more modern design isn't relevant anyways since there have been enough (plus early on) color pie bends/breaks that specific colors mostly aren't pigeon holed into having the sorts of gaps in what they can deal with that more recent card design creates.

Basically, the more strictly a format follows the color pie, the more of an issue shifting design to accommodate those fundamental color pie failures becomes.

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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

blkdemonight wrote:
8 months ago
War of the Spark planeswalkers were horribly designed solely for the fact they didn't print efficient pw killers like Deadbore and Red Elemental Blast within the same standard rotation that also included flexible mana fixing.
One brilliant part of the design of several of them with static abilities was that they only had negative effects. The power level was still off, but that's a key aspect to making such a design work.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 8 months ago

no decks with problematic win rates against the field....... While win rate data may not point to change being needed, a different, more important set of data does: player participation..... can make play experiences unenjoyable
......
I hope ktchenfinx you can accept now what I am talking and don't try again to prove its not true?


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