[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 8 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
For me Jitte would boost all critter midrange decks, especially hatebears.
I think the main issue is it would be like smugglers' copter was in Pioneer, it would be everywhere in those type of decks. Thing is, there are not really those type of decks in the format. Hatebears, Merfolk, Goblins perhaps. Those decks need a boost.

It might kill burn (though burn exists on legacy fringes with Jitte about, thanks to Sulfuric Vortex). It probably would not make decks like Tron or Titan based decks, nor do much against t3 Tron.


I do think the idea of banning Boil, Flashfire or Choke is like me saying we should ban creatures, and about as likely. These cards do nothing. I would love to see the ban announcement for Karma! 'We thought the potential for Urborg plus Karma was a two card combo we did not want.....'.

Walkers, of course, I wish would should sod off and take those who like them with them. , I will take a format full of Glooms, Stone Rains and Desolations over a format of people tapping creatures to attack planeswalkers, which are standard garbage for people who do not want to play magic,but Creatures, the Gathering.....If anyone finds this offensive, that is how I feel when I hear people arguing for bans of Blood moon, bridge Chalice et al. It was our game first, it was not about creatures, walkers, and that turning sideways garbage. It was about Stasis, Forcefield, Necropotence, Smokestacks, and Serra Angel was a powerhouse!
The fact that Jitte is colorless means that it would see play in every deck that plays 12 creatures or more. But as a plus, the stock of Stoneforge Mystic goes up quite a bit. The problem I envision with Jitte is it being sort of like a Plague Engineer because once it gets going, there are not many outs to it.

That is an interesting idea. Maybe if Sulfuric Vortex was printed in MH2, Jitte would be at least a bit more acceptable? I know that usually when I play Legacy, Sulfuric Vortex is the top card out of Burn that I can't beat. It's tough to justify a Force of Will in most situations because you then lose to burn, so you kind of have to accept it as a clock, obviously depending on the situation. But I don't think it's overpowered in Modern. Compare it with Price of Progress, which I do not think is acceptable in Modern.

Yeah, the idea of banning Boil or Choke is pretty ridiculous and banning Flashfire is just super out there. There is no reason to ban these. Sure, they lead to feel bads. You know what else leads to feel bads? *insert 1 of 2350382750 situations in Modern

I agree (and I think many people also agree) that some of the War of the Spark PWers are messed up for their static abilities. But the main reason I wanted to reply to you is this. I feel that you and I have played in many of the same eras. I've played since 1994 with 2 small breaks in between. I remember those decks and there was nothing wrong with them ... at the time. Those parts of the game are being phased out more and more. WotC has an idea of what players enjoy in Magic and they have felt for a long time that Prison, especially hard Prison, is not that. Maybe even time considerations in a 50 min. round with 1,000+ players at a GP is also a consideration? I also have felt that a lot of these changes are "dumbing down" Magic, but we have to accept them. Magic is evolving and has evolved. It could get to a point where it's no longer enjoyable for many, but hopefully that at least comes with the positive that more other players are attracted to the game. I know it sounds silly considering the DESIGN mistakes of recent times, but they have identified certain things that newer players don't like. I have even been conditioned in the past 10 years or so to NOT enjoy many types of decks. It's all about adjusting and the players that are the most fluid and flexible will probably have the best time playing Magic.

*Two of my favorite abilities of all time (prob the top 2) are Storm and Phyrexian mana. I have come to terms that there will never be a card with those abilities ever again unless it's something like "destroy target creature" for 7 mana or something purposely made super weak.
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
For me Jitte would boost all critter midrange decks, especially hatebears.
I think the main issue is it would be like smugglers' copter was in Pioneer, it would be everywhere in those type of decks. Thing is, there are not really those type of decks in the format. Hatebears, Merfolk, Goblins perhaps. Those decks need a boost.
I don't think it would. Because Jitte invalidates most board positions. It ceases to be a game of board positioning, and instead revolves solely around that card. All of those decks would, in matchups against each other devolve to who can get and keep a Jitte. This would then consolidate those decks into whatever best carries it and reduce diversity. In the current meta that's probably Eldrazi Tron fetched via Karn.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
The fact that Jitte is colorless means that it would see play in every deck that plays 12 creatures or more. But as a plus, the stock of Stoneforge Mystic goes up quite a bit.
I feel this is what's going to happen if Jitte is unleashed here in modern. Sfm would indeed increase in value and price.
The problem I envision with Jitte is it being sort of like a Plague Engineer because once it gets going, there are not many outs to it.
going to be a race on who get's their jitte online first.
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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
8 months ago
I feel this is what's going to happen if Jitte is unleashed here in modern. Sfm would indeed increase in value and price.
SFM wouldn't even be necessary. On the other hand, Spell Snare would raise in usefulness.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.

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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.
Here's some good talk about Jitte. I've been saying for years this card is fine and would probably not even see much play. This lingering on the list is just another example of how little WOTC even knows about their own game.
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Post by AvalonAurora » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.
Golgari Grave-Troll was largely irrelevant when it was unbanned, and then suddenly wasn't because of new printings changing the metagame. That is why in my post I referenced theoretical future metagames. I don't think wizards would want to risk too many more things that they unban and then have to ban again later.

On the other hand, I can't see them getting the kind of normal aggro Jitte would matter more against being relevant enough again without an obscene number of bans or some genius level new card collections that are carefully tailored for such with a slightly lesser number of bans, but still probably excessive numbers, so Jitte probably wouldn't wind up needing to be re-banned, because I doubt they can un-warp Modern's meta to something more long-term healthy without killing the format anyway with too many bans, and a warped meta can, in theory, still find it's own balance and diversity without the excessive number of bans I mention, it just wouldn't rely on more typical balance patterns like the aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro type of setup.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
8 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.
Golgari Grave-Troll was largely irrelevant when it was unbanned, and then suddenly wasn't because of new printings changing the metagame. That is why in my post I referenced theoretical future metagames. I don't think wizards would want to risk too many more things that they unban and then have to ban again later.
Dredge is an inherently broken mechanic though, and is routinely broken every few sets. I don't think there has ever actually been legitimately broken equipment in the history of Magic. Except MAYBE the slim window of Standard with Batterskull, since they lacked the tools to deal with it. But like, meat-and-potatoes "wearing" equipment? Even the best of the best is... just OK.

I regret bringing up Jitte.... :woozy: :crazy:

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Post by Guardman » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
AvalonAurora wrote:
8 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.
Golgari Grave-Troll was largely irrelevant when it was unbanned, and then suddenly wasn't because of new printings changing the metagame. That is why in my post I referenced theoretical future metagames. I don't think wizards would want to risk too many more things that they unban and then have to ban again later.
Dredge is an inherently broken mechanic though, and is routinely broken every few sets. I don't think there has ever actually been legitimately broken equipment in the history of Magic. Except MAYBE the slim window of Standard with Batterskull, since they lacked the tools to deal with it. But like, meat-and-potatoes "wearing" equipment? Even the best of the best is... just OK.

I regret bringing up Jitte.... :woozy: :crazy:
Counterpoint on broken equipment: Skullclamp :sneaky:

Not to beat a dead horse, but... having played with and against it back in the day (and every now and then as a friend of mine has it in their cube), Umezawa's Jitte is not something that should be unbanned. Will it be too powerful? Probably not. But it is extremely strong, extremely versatile, and has a low deck-building cost. It will most likely lower deck and creature diversity, two things that aren't needed and shouldn't be wanted.

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Post by Simto » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
I regret bringing up Jitte....
I find it rather refreshing compared to discussing Twin lol

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Guardman wrote:
8 months ago
Counterpoint on broken equipment: Skullclamp :sneaky:
I mean, Skullclamp isn't meant to be worn though, it's meant to machine-gun down your own guys to draw cards. :grin:
Not to beat a dead horse, but... having played with and against it back in the day (and every now and then as a friend of mine has it in their cube), Umezawa's Jitte is not something that should be unbanned. Will it be too powerful? Probably not. But it is extremely strong, extremely versatile, and has a low deck-building cost. It will most likely lower deck and creature diversity, two things that aren't needed and shouldn't be wanted.
Yeah, but "back in the day" is entirely irrelevant when literally hundreds (if not thousands) of relevant, powerful, influential cards have been added or changed to a format that is fundamentally different than any other which has (or had) Jitte legal. This is the hardest thing for me to come to grips with, and so far I don't see anything convincing of its superposed brokenness in today's Modern. In that sense, I agree with your assessment.

Honestly, if it were unbanned tomorrow, I don't think it would change anything in Modern. At all. And no one outside of existing SFM decks would even play it after the "ooh! fun! new toy!" phase wears off. It's far too easy to get 2-for-1'd with equipment, never mind often being too slow.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Because there are no meaningful events, no meaningful data, nothing happening in paper, and as such, Modern is mostly undefinable outside of individual experiences and anecdotes. There's nothing meaningful to discuss, because there's nothing really to base that discussion ON. So the banlist is the easiest eternal topic to repeatedly come back to, especially when Modern is where it is right now. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just plagued by overwhelming apathy. Spicing things up with unbans ignites a spark of caring about Modern again; musing over the "what ifs" of spicy cards.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 8 months ago

Man i missed a jitte conversation lol. no I just wanted to make my bitterblossoms great again, don't mind me. Carry on

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Post by blkdemonight » 8 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
8 months ago
Serious question: Why does this thread revolve around unban Twin or some other cards only? I mean, there are things more important to those unimportant stuff. Cards that are banned, are banned for a reason and probably belong in the banlist.

We could talk about what decks could be the best Modern decks moving forward, post AA banning for example. This thread really lets you down. Anyway, imo, there is a chance that the best deck in modern will be a UGx Reclamation deck, or another UGx(maybe Snow) deck, like UGx tempo Scapeshift with the combo finish and FOTD. UR Prowess seems to be the flavour of the month also, no idea if that's one of the best decks going forward. Early preliminary results show that Uro is the most played card, but those results mean little now.

That's all some educated guesses from some early data/results and a way to shift the conversation a bit back toward a more important subject than the unbannings topic that have been beaten to the ground.
To be fair not everyone grinds games on an hourly basis.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
8 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
8 months ago
For me Jitte would boost all critter midrange decks, especially hatebears.
I think the main issue is it would be like smugglers' copter was in Pioneer, it would be everywhere in those type of decks. Thing is, there are not really those type of decks in the format. Hatebears, Merfolk, Goblins perhaps. Those decks need a boost.

It might kill burn (though burn exists on legacy fringes with Jitte about, thanks to Sulfuric Vortex). It probably would not make decks like Tron or Titan based decks, nor do much against t3 Tron.


I do think the idea of banning Boil, Flashfire or Choke is like me saying we should ban creatures, and about as likely. These cards do nothing. I would love to see the ban announcement for Karma! 'We thought the potential for Urborg plus Karma was a two card combo we did not want.....'.

Walkers, of course, I wish would should sod off and take those who like them with them. , I will take a format full of Glooms, Stone Rains and Desolations over a format of people tapping creatures to attack planeswalkers, which are standard garbage for people who do not want to play magic,but Creatures, the Gathering.....If anyone finds this offensive, that is how I feel when I hear people arguing for bans of Blood moon, bridge Chalice et al. It was our game first, it was not about creatures, walkers, and that turning sideways garbage. It was about Stasis, Forcefield, Necropotence, Smokestacks, and Serra Angel was a powerhouse!
The fact that Jitte is colorless means that it would see play in every deck that plays 12 creatures or more. But as a plus, the stock of Stoneforge Mystic goes up quite a bit. The problem I envision with Jitte is it being sort of like a Plague Engineer because once it gets going, there are not many outs to it.

That is an interesting idea. Maybe if Sulfuric Vortex was printed in MH2, Jitte would be at least a bit more acceptable? I know that usually when I play Legacy, Sulfuric Vortex is the top card out of Burn that I can't beat. It's tough to justify a Force of Will in most situations because you then lose to burn, so you kind of have to accept it as a clock, obviously depending on the situation. But I don't think it's overpowered in Modern. Compare it with Price of Progress, which I do not think is acceptable in Modern.

Yeah, the idea of banning Boil or Choke is pretty ridiculous and banning Flashfire is just super out there. There is no reason to ban these. Sure, they lead to feel bads. You know what else leads to feel bads? *insert 1 of 2350382750 situations in Modern

I agree (and I think many people also agree) that some of the War of the Spark PWers are messed up for their static abilities. But the main reason I wanted to reply to you is this. I feel that you and I have played in many of the same eras. I've played since 1994 with 2 small breaks in between. I remember those decks and there was nothing wrong with them ... at the time. Those parts of the game are being phased out more and more. WotC has an idea of what players enjoy in Magic and they have felt for a long time that Prison, especially hard Prison, is not that. Maybe even time considerations in a 50 min. round with 1,000+ players at a GP is also a consideration? I also have felt that a lot of these changes are "dumbing down" Magic, but we have to accept them. Magic is evolving and has evolved. It could get to a point where it's no longer enjoyable for many, but hopefully that at least comes with the positive that more other players are attracted to the game. I know it sounds silly considering the DESIGN mistakes of recent times, but they have identified certain things that newer players don't like. I have even been conditioned in the past 10 years or so to NOT enjoy many types of decks. It's all about adjusting and the players that are the most fluid and flexible will probably have the best time playing Magic.

*Two of my favorite abilities of all time (prob the top 2) are Storm and Phyrexian mana. I have come to terms that there will never be a card with those abilities ever again unless it's something like "destroy target creature" for 7 mana or something purposely made super weak.
I don't agree with drmarkb about creature gathering and planeswalker rant since the dimension they add is different from casting non permanents experience. The real problem is that Wizards is now designing the game about focusing on payoffs and tempo decision trees but not the proper counterplay to such experiences. Honestly it feels worse at times than getting ftk/otk in yugioh since that game in theory has generic cards that can be activated from the hand during an opponent's turn.

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Post by Ed06288 » 8 months ago

I wouldn't mind having one good prison deck in modern.
Maybe Crystal Vein is a card that could enable a mud strategy.

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Post by Tzoulis » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Sigh. Same talk about Jitte as for AV, SotM, BBE, Jace, and even Stoneforge. The fear of cards based on totally different formats, or totally different metas, decks, answers, and threats, and continues. *shrug*

In the context of 2020 Modern I don't see how Jitte is anything more than a random sideboard card or "just another option" for Stoneforge decks already maxed out on F&F and F&I. Times have changed. What it does is just irrelevant to so many decks in our format.
Yeah, but where's your proof that Jitte will be fine?
Ed06288 wrote:
8 months ago

I wouldn't mind having one good prison deck in modern.
Maybe Crystal Vein is a card that could enable a mud strategy.
It's called E-Tron and Crystal Vein would mean even more T2 Thought Knots.

Prison strategies either require Artifacts or Hatebears such as Sanctum Prelate. They destroyed the former and the latter has always being a T2 strategy. There's also enchantress, but Modern doesn't have a few of the required pieces, such as Elephant Grass.

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Post by The Fluff » 8 months ago

is elephant grass in the reserved list? They could reprint that to help make an enchantress deck viable here.

they could also reprint carpet of flowers for another useful enchantment.
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Post by Simto » 8 months ago

Ok something totally unrelated to ban/unban talks

Can I just say how absolutely insane Mazemind Tome is?? Holy %$#% that card is good in my Tron deck! I can imagine it being insane in other decks too. It's basically Scry 2 before your 3rd draw step, then it's draw 2 and gain 4 life. I swapped it out for Mind Stone, which always felt like a terrible draw, but now I'm happy if I have it in my opening hand or draw it mid/late game. Such a sick card!
Cards like that and Blast Zone have become some of my favourite cards in my deck. It's funny how strong the whole Tron lands, Eldrazi temple and the "unholy trinity" of Eldrazi from Oath of the Gatewatch are, but it's cards like Mazemind Tome and Blast Zone that push the deck over the edge in terms of flexibility and consistency.

Going to be playing a lot of "casual" modern this Saturday with my friends and family and I'm hype as %$#% :)

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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

The upside of Jitte is having a new strat, possibly archetype, to employ. We do not have anything that even remotely compares to Jitte, where as Twin has plenty of combo analogs in the pool already. We dont need another combo deck we need a tool like Jitte to open up the doors to FAIR decks. That's what people on this forum are really scared of in modern I think: someone coming in with a kitchen table deck and having a chance. Modern's current format identity is who can table the most broken mechanic cards the fastest,
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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

I do no fully concede the point that Jitte edges out small creature decks, BUT for the sake of argument let's say it does. The people playing those types of decks are trying to play a fair strat. Having Jitte in the card pool gives them a (tiny) chance to compete with a fair deck based on the Jitte. This seems like a fair trade off.
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Post by robertleva » 8 months ago

I will be honest with you I am out of the Modern format. I have all the cards but I just dont play it any more. I do not know what currently dominates etc. but I am a bit surprised to hear SFM is relevant. If that is the case then I doubt jitte has any realistic hope of seeing play.
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Post by Aazadan » 8 months ago

robertleva wrote:
8 months ago
I will be honest with you I am out of the Modern format. I have all the cards but I just dont play it any more. I do not know what currently dominates etc. but I am a bit surprised to hear SFM is relevant. If that is the case then I doubt jitte has any realistic hope of seeing play.
Relevant is a strong term, it's less relevant than in Legacy, and Stoneblade isn't exactly a good Legacy deck, just a popular one. That said, it exists in that format because Jitte is a really powerful card. SFM sort of exists in Modern, I'm not sure if it would be paired with SFM in Modern or not, the last time it was tried in a format test it excelled with Karn and Eldrazi. Whatever form it takes though, it would be tier 1, and it would be a must play card in anything trying to be creature based.

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Post by cfusionpm » 8 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
8 months ago
Yeah, but where's your proof that Jitte will be fine?
Stoneforge decks being exceedingly mediocre, while running Swords arguably more relevant than Jitte, but still nearly exclusively prioritizing Batterskull, because equipment in general is usually too bad or too slow, regardless of power, due to its equip costs, susceptibility to removal, and risks of massive 2-for-1s? 🤷‍♂️

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Post by Arkmer » 8 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
8 months ago
Yeah, but where's your proof that Jitte will be fine?
Haven't we debunked the need for this? Not even WotC uses "proof" to unban things. Slide yourself up to post #1 in this thread and open all those unban announcements. I have no opinion about Jitte in particular, but not a single unbanning references any data, no talk of testing or sample sizes, and nothing released to the community through other venues to justify them. Instead they talk about goals, give rhetoric, and justify with the same type speeches cf gives (and others, this just context). And let's not pretend that anyone has the time to sit down and grind enough games to actually make a sample size large enough to satisfy anyone else- And even if they did, "the list was wrong", "that's not what I'd play", "I'd pilot the deck better", etc; that goes for any contrary evidence you would provide yourself. Were none of those the case you would fly to the thread with your proof and the discussion would end.

Whether or not that favors Jitte or Twin or Punishing Fires or whatever is beyond what I care about. What I do care about is the continuous slapping of "proof proof proof" that not even WotC provides, that not even you can provide to show contrary, that not cf nor anyone else will be able to provide. I couldn't care less about unbanning things in Modern but for the sake of all future unban discussion (no matter the format) recognize that you are holding people to a higher standard than WotC themselves.

Bottom line is that asking for proof as if it's some attainable obvious thing for an unban is not just an obviously impossible hurtle but there is no precedence for it. It just comes across as massively disingenuous especially when it's literally the only sentence that can be uttered in response.

To all those who speak rhetoric and experience in response, I have no complaint.
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Post by Tzoulis » 8 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
8 months ago
Stoneforge decks being exceedingly mediocre, while running Swords arguably more relevant than Jitte, but still nearly exclusively prioritizing Batterskull, because equipment in general is usually too bad or too slow, regardless of power, due to its equip costs, susceptibility to removal, and risks of massive 2-for-1s?
But do you have a list? Played some games and presented those experiences? You know, actual proof not silly conjectures.

@Arkmer I think you've missed some episodes. Some people who were dismissing arguments were asking, nay demanding proof, against the "drivel" before this thread was locked for a couple of days. If those same people now are basing their arguments on past and present experiences, as well as logic, then's something's fishy or dare I say biased?

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