[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
At the same time, we should be more cautious as we get deeper into the banlist. There aren't a lot of clear Nacatls lurking around anymore and the risks have gone up as we worked through the obvious unbans. For instance, I am confident we could unban at least a single artifact land right now to help lagging artifact strategies without significant risk. Tree of Tales would help both Hardened Scales and some Urza strategies so we could start there.
I put the current ban list into two categories. Banned without cause, which are the cards that started on the banned list, and banned with cause are cards that later proved themselves banworthy. Since there should be some on the without cause list that are safe, those are the ones to most focus on as it's likely to contain some safe cards.

Tree of Tales like you mentioned is one. But, I think all 5 artifact lands should be unbanned. They can't be fetched, and without easy color fixing they're not all that viable outside of artifact aggro decks. We know decks like Affinity can exist with artifact lands, and those decks took a lot of splash damage from Mox Opal. They also don't offer up the same type of degenerate starts that Opal did. Also, I know this is an awful reason but just getting a single colored mana in that cycle feels wrong aesthetically.

Blazing Shoal only got a semi appearance, but what we saw makes it really risky with a deck like Infect.

Chrome Mox is probably not safe.

Cloudpost is debatable. It could further diversify what are currently Tron archetypes. Or it could backfire.

Dark Depths is questionable, but noteworthy that 4 out of 5 colors can effectively deal with it.

Dread Return never got a chance, but is likely not safe.

Glimpse of Nature probably isn't safe, and never got a chance.

Hypergenesis is definitely not safe with the cast free cards.

Mental Misstep isn't safe.

Ponder and Preordain are controversial, I don't feel like getting into those right now.

Punishing Fire is widely considered to be safe.

Skullclamp is absolutely not safe.

Jitte is considered by most to not be safe.

So, that leaves us on the spectrum of safest being Punishing Fire, then the 5 artifact lands, then Ponder/Preordain (one or both), and then on the end of the possibly safe is Dark Depths, which between green/red land destruction, path, edicts, and especially recently Brazen Borrower and Shark Typhoon, I think could at least be open for an argument.

Edit: If we want to entertain the idea of a single artifact land though: The white one has the fewest synergies, then black opens up Cranial Plating, green is Hardened Scales, red is the 1/1 haste, and blue is by far the most dangerous of the 5.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Help urza decks?? No please not! There is a reason why we banned so many cards now to keep them in check. Don't start this circle again

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
The only true unban mishap was GGT, which was largely due to Wizards releasing a series of laughably untested graveyard cards in rapid succession.
But again, I wouldn't even call it a mishap. It was legal for literally a year and a half before seeing any upgrades. And was legal 21 months before seeing Cathartic Reunion and needing a ban. It's not an accident that it was banned at the announcement following Reunion and not at any point prior to that. As a thought experiment, I wonder if Dredge might have received a ban of some sort in that time period (after Amalgam/Reunion) anyway, even if GGT were still banned, (and it was "just" Dredging 4 and 5 instead of 5 and 6). We'll never know for sure. But we do know that Cathartic Reunion was the mistake. Not GGT.
Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
Jitte is considered by most to not be safe.
"Considered by most"? Why? We don't have True-Name Nemesis. And under most normal circumstances, even the best of equipment is shoddy at best. Including Batterskull and the Swords of X&Y.

This one routinely baffles me. Like, I don't care whether it stays banned or not (I wouldn't actually play it and have no interest in trying), I just... don't understand.

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Post by Wraithpk » 1 year ago

I don't know if you guys saw this, but the Project Modern people are temporarily unbanning Splinter Twin in August. The differences in their banned list, along with Twin on the 1st, are Preordain, Mox Opal, and Bridge from Below being unbanned, and Veil of Summer being banned (as it should be in real Modern, WOTC......). We should get some good data from this. It'll be interesting to see if Twin is ok even with Preordain in their format. If it's fine in Project Modern with Preordain, it's certainly fine in real Modern without it.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know if you guys saw this, but the Project Modern people are temporarily unbanning Splinter Twin in August. The differences in their banned list, along with Twin on the 1st, are Preordain, Mox Opal, and Bridge from Below being unbanned, and Veil of Summer being banned (as it should be in real Modern, WOTC......). We should get some good data from this. It'll be interesting to see if Twin is ok even with Preordain in their format. If it's fine in Project Modern with Preordain, it's certainly fine in real Modern without it.
How does one join or test? MTGO freeform rooms?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Wraithpk wrote:
1 year ago
I don't know if you guys saw this, but the Project Modern people are temporarily unbanning Splinter Twin in August. The differences in their banned list, along with Twin on the 1st, are Preordain, Mox Opal, and Bridge from Below being unbanned, and Veil of Summer being banned (as it should be in real Modern, WOTC......). We should get some good data from this. It'll be interesting to see if Twin is ok even with Preordain in their format. If it's fine in Project Modern with Preordain, it's certainly fine in real Modern without it.
I am very interested in those results. I don't think it is a guarantee either that it's 100% safe or 100% unsafe. Nothing is a guarantee. All we can do is hope that it's not more than 50% unsafe and then try it. The big problem is that no one can agree on the 50%.

I personally don't know in what world Golgari Grave-Troll has been the problem all along, in comparison to Prized Amalgam or Cathartic Reunion. Prized Amalgam is never going to be reprinted again and certainly not in a Core Set. Cathartic Reunion has been reprinted again; I think 2 times. It is a pretty powerful card in the right shell, admittedly.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
At the same time, we should be more cautious as we get deeper into the banlist. There aren't a lot of clear Nacatls lurking around anymore and the risks have gone up as we worked through the obvious unbans. For instance, I am confident we could unban at least a single artifact land right now to help lagging artifact strategies without significant risk. Tree of Tales would help both Hardened Scales and some Urza strategies so we could start there.
Unbanning any (or all) Artifact lands won't really impact Urza decks, like at all. It might help Scales a bit, but I don't think they'd run more than they're running now. I also don't think Affinity would do much with the artifact lands. It might structure itself closer to its Mirrodin Standard style, but I doubt it'll be relevant.
Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Help urza decks?? No please not! There is a reason why we banned so many cards now to keep them in check. Don't start this circle again
Other than the travesty of a ban that was Mox Opal. what other bans were specifically made to hinder Urza decks?
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one join or test? MTGO freeform rooms?
Cockatrice and/or MTGO I think. They have a Discord server as well.
Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
I think Prized amalgam could easily be reprinted and we could have another Prized amalgam variation in the future. Oh, there is already one variation: Silversmote Ghoul. Dredge was and is the problem all along. Cards that support it will always be printed. Hopefully, with Looting and GGT banned, Dredge will be kept under control.
While Dredge might be an extremely bad mechanic, so is Storm. Wizards though are far more conscious to not print spell based mana ramp (I bet why they don't at least Preordain is their fear of Storm/Ad Nauseam), while they've consistently printed GY payoffs or GY recursive threats. I remember Dredge with GGT when it was unbanned, while not oppressive it was inching upwards to T1. Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam really put it over the top.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

Please please please don't unban Jitte.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
"Considered by most"? Why? We don't have True-Name Nemesis. And under most normal circumstances, even the best of equipment is shoddy at best. Including Batterskull and the Swords of X&Y.
Mainly because of what it does to board states. Even without TNN where it just speeds up the clock, it does some absurd things to board states. WotC has focused very hard on making the combat step the most engaging step of the game, and while not every deck uses it or has to use it, when present Jitte takes all engagement on that phase out of the game.

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Post by Mtgthewary » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Help urza decks?? No please not! There is a reason why we banned so many cards now to keep them in check. Don't start this circle again
Other than the travesty of a ban that was Mox Opal. what other bans were specifically made to hinder Urza decks?

...........
Oko

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Post by Mapccu » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
"Considered by most"? Why? We don't have True-Name Nemesis. And under most normal circumstances, even the best of equipment is shoddy at best. Including Batterskull and the Swords of X&Y.
Mainly because of what it does to board states. Even without TNN where it just speeds up the clock, it does some absurd things to board states. WotC has focused very hard on making the combat step the most engaging step of the game, and while not every deck uses it or has to use it, when present Jitte takes all engagement on that phase out of the game.
Yeah imma agree jitte brings nothing good to the format. Elves used to be the boogey man in years past when people brought up jitte but goblins would run absolutely roughshod over anything with creatures with jitte imo.

Vial in Warren Instigator suit up with jitte and drop snoop+harbinger on the board? Barf.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
"Considered by most"? Why? We don't have True-Name Nemesis. And under most normal circumstances, even the best of equipment is shoddy at best. Including Batterskull and the Swords of X&Y.
Mainly because of what it does to board states. Even without TNN where it just speeds up the clock, it does some absurd things to board states. WotC has focused very hard on making the combat step the most engaging step of the game, and while not every deck uses it or has to use it, when present Jitte takes all engagement on that phase out of the game.
What does it do better than Feast/Famine or Fire/Ice? Like, realistically speaking, you're not attacking with a creature wearing a Jitte until AT LEAST turn 3, and more likely 4+. At that point, there are at least a dozen things in Modern that will be orders of magnitude more powerful, if not outright deciding the game by that point. And you gain..... a little tempo advantage? Maybe debuff a creature or pump your own? Like... that seems pitiful in 2020 Modern.

And as far as little critter decks, I imagine Plague Engineer is a much harder beating to creature decks than Jitte ever could be in 2020.
Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
How does one join or test? MTGO freeform rooms?
Cockatrice and/or MTGO I think. They have a Discord server as well.
Barf. :sick: I absolutely cannot stand Discord. Is there any other way to join or get info on them? The website is extremely clunky and sparse. I look forward to playing Twin and getting absolutely stomped.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

I know it was a little while ago and in an "untested meta", but I saw the SCG tour had an unbanned tournament with no bans, and the top was basically just eldrazi tron with jitte. It looked terrible and that's coming from somebody who loves tron hehe.
If Lattice was banned for being unfun, then jitte absolutely fits that category too. It's a slippery slope with that "not fun" thing.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Simto wrote:
1 year ago
I know it was a little while ago and in an "untested meta", but I saw the SCG tour had an unbanned tournament with no bans, and the top was basically just eldrazi tron with jitte. It looked terrible and that's coming from somebody who loves tron hehe.
If Lattice was banned for being unfun, then jitte absolutely fits that category too. It's a slippery slope with that "not fun" thing.
I would imagine that has more to do with Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple and playing giant, undercosted, super pumped creatures way under curve than some anemic equipment.
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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

If I were a developer, I personally like decks like ad-nauseam, tron, and jund, as the deck building process revolves around one strategy. I generally dislike stuff like the Twin package and Stoneforge package, as you simply take 6 or 10 cards and slot them into any existing deck core. Stuff like Glimpse of Nature and Hypergenesis screams "build around me" and makes those decks vulnerable to other strategies. Although I'm surprised that Stoneforge sees such little play so there are some details I could be missing.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
Although I'm surprised that Stoneforge sees such little play so there are some details I could be missing.
Because she's slow, and generally weaker than many other possible options for Modern players. She is not a good card, especially in a format like Modern that is exceedingly hostile to creatures. A lot of things have to go right for her to have a meaningful impact in any game.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

Nit-picking, but I actually think the format is hostile to non-creatures because of force of negation (and to a lesser extent, New Terferi). I don't see Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengence, and other instants seeing much play. Even ponza dropped blood moon in favor of magus of the moon.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What does it do better than Feast/Famine or Fire/Ice? Like, realistically speaking, you're not attacking with a creature wearing a Jitte until AT LEAST turn 3, and more likely 4+. At that point, there are at least a dozen things in Modern that will be orders of magnitude more powerful, if not outright deciding the game by that point. And you gain..... a little tempo advantage? Maybe debuff a creature or pump your own? Like... that seems pitiful in 2020 Modern.


For one, it swings a turn sooner.
Two, it's orders of magnitude more powerful on first strike.
Three, a sword invalidates one creature on the board. Jitte invalidates all creatures. Jitte makes a stream of 1/1's superior to 5/5's on attack and block, while also preventing just about any low toughness utility creature.

Against any deck that's playing a game relying on board position, Jitte eliminates all counterplay until it is removed. With SFM being in the format making such a deck would be incredibly easy.

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Post by Simto » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Simto wrote:
1 year ago
I know it was a little while ago and in an "untested meta", but I saw the SCG tour had an unbanned tournament with no bans, and the top was basically just eldrazi tron with jitte. It looked terrible and that's coming from somebody who loves tron hehe.
If Lattice was banned for being unfun, then jitte absolutely fits that category too. It's a slippery slope with that "not fun" thing.
I would imagine that has more to do with Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple and playing giant, undercosted, super pumped creatures way under curve than some anemic equipment.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1141173#paper
Definitely that too, but you're underestimating Jitte a lot.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Aazadan wrote:
1 year ago
For one, it swings a turn sooner.
Two, it's orders of magnitude more powerful on first strike.
Three, a sword invalidates one creature on the board. Jitte invalidates all creatures. Jitte makes a stream of 1/1's superior to 5/5's on attack and block, while also preventing just about any low toughness utility creature.
For one, it swings a turn sooner. How? If you Stoneforge it, it's the same clock. If you draw it naturally, I guess it's attacking turn 3? But then you spent turn 2 doing nothing, and 2/3 of your mana turn 3 equipping a creature that had to have been there since turn 1. Seems... not super scary.
Two, it's orders of magnitude more powerful on first strike. Other than Thalia, is this an actual problem? What playable creatures have First Strike? At least good enough to be playable on their own in case you don't draw Jitte?
Three, a sword invalidates one creature on the board. Jitte invalidates all creatures. I don't understand this at all. How does Jitte "invalidate" creatures? And how is it any more "invalidating" than say, Soul-Scar Mage?
Jitte makes a stream of 1/1's superior to 5/5's on attack and block, Isn't a stream of 1/1s ALREADY superior to a 5/5 without Trample?
while also preventing just about any low toughness utility creature. Good? Why is this a problem?

I don't know, I mean, I guess in niche situations, under good conditions, and in a matchup where it matters, Jitte seems like it could sometimes be really good. But like... so? None of this seems even super good, never mind "banworthy and broken" *shrug*

For some context on my perspective, I'll bet many of the fears of Jitte from Legacy are similar to the fears people had about Ancestral Vision because of Cascade. It's just not that good in a different environment with different tools, different threats, and completely different metas.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Mtgthewary wrote:
1 year ago
Oko
Oko was a general problem, not just in Urza decks. Infect, Titan and Bogles played him. So, again, what was the ban to hinder Urza decks?
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Barf. I absolutely cannot stand Discord. Is there any other way to join or get info on them? The website is extremely clunky and sparse. I look forward to playing Twin and getting absolutely stomped.
This is the discord link I found: https://discord.gg/mjtTnr8
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What does it do better than Feast/Famine or Fire/Ice? Like, realistically speaking, you're not attacking with a creature wearing a Jitte until AT LEAST turn 3, and more likely 4+
Thing is, with Jitte you don't have to attack. If the equipped creature deals any combat damage you get the counters. That's a major problem for decks like Burn, Prowess etc. I do not think it'll be a serious issue in Modern, but Jitte is extremely oppressive against aggro and vial decks.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
Thing is, with Jitte you don't have to attack. If the equipped creature deals any combat damage you get the counters. That's a major problem for decks like Burn, Prowess etc. I do not think it'll be a serious issue in Modern, but Jitte is extremely oppressive against aggro and vial decks.
I'm just going to pick out this part because I have no issue at all with any of the rest.

I do agree with you on Jitte. I've played against (mostly) and with Jitte in Standard, Extended, and Legacy and I do think Jitte would be too oppressive if you want to have creatures be the main point about a format. I don't think Jitte would be okay. But, I have seen enough people who DO think it's okay that I'm all right "slightly conceding" the point. I wouldn't mind unbanning Jitte, as long as we know that it could definitely get banned again if it is too oppressive. This is how I see it from the standpoint of each former format.

Standard - Jitte was oppressive, but it at least had a slight stopgap. One could play Jitte in order to kill an opponent's Jitte, so either they play it to kill the opponent's Jitte or they get their own and probably win in many matchups. Some people don't know this, but players were rarely shouting out for any kind of bans. It's only in the past 5 years that this phenomena has happened more and part of that has been the design team.

Extended - The format did change quite a bit, but it very often focused on some "non creature" decks like UR Storm, Mono Blue Thopter Sword, Dark Depths, All in Red, and others. Zoo did play Jitte and it was indeed very good, but Extended was a much less creature centric format, depending on how you evaluate that, than current Modern or Modern ever has been.

Legacy - Jitte never really caused much of a problem because of Chalice decks vs. Blue vs. Combo. Most of those decks have game vs. Jitte and I doubt anyone in this thread wants Modern to be this type of format. That's why many of you actively AVOID Legacy. It did cause a bit of a problem with True-Name Nemesis, like someone else stated before, but that was more the TNN itself, not the Jitte.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
What does it do better than Feast/Famine or Fire/Ice? Like, realistically speaking, you're not attacking with a creature wearing a Jitte until AT LEAST turn 3, and more likely 4+
Thing is, with Jitte you don't have to attack. If the equipped creature deals any combat damage you get the counters. That's a major problem for decks like Burn, Prowess etc. I do not think it'll be a serious issue in Modern, but Jitte is extremely oppressive against aggro and vial decks.
I guess my stance is somewhere between "so what?" and "isn't that a good thing?"

I cannot wrap my head around how this is in any way oppressive in a world where the current top Modern decks do not care whatsoever about some random equipment, no matter how good it might be.

Like, even with Mono R Prowess, they play a million bolt/shock/damage effects and just kill the creature its attached to; just like they currently do to Stoneforge decks. Or play Shatter effects. Or simply kill them before it matters. *shrug*

I just don't understand what decks people are playing that would make them so afraid of this card.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I guess my stance is somewhere between "so what?" and "isn't that a good thing?"

I cannot wrap my head around how this is in any way oppressive in a world where the current top Modern decks do not care whatsoever about some random equipment, no matter how good it might be.

Like, even with Mono R Prowess, they play a million bolt/shock/damage effects and just kill the creature its attached to; just like they currently do to Stoneforge decks. Or play Shatter effects. Or simply kill them before it matters. *shrug*

I just don't understand what decks people are playing that would make them so afraid of this card.
One of it's options is life gain, but it also has the other options, so aggro decks that aren't infect pretty much have to get rid of it, it's like a low cost planeswalker in some ways, except it has removal as one of it's options. It's a problem for similar reasons to Deathrite Shaman, the specific effects it can pull off aren't all that great, but it's so cheap that the potential re-useability of them becomes too big a potential game swing for the efforts and costs involved. While more expensive and needing more support than Deathrite, it also doesn't get removed for good just throwing down some creature removal, since it's an equipment that can be attached to another creature later, so you need artifact removal for it, which isn't always a mainboard thing.

It probably doesn't matter in the current meta, since the decks it is overly harsh against aren't currently viable in Modern anyway, but the kind of decks it would be overly harsh against are things that _should_ be viable in a healthy metagame, so it's presence would be a long term issue preventing their return if other aspects of the metagame were ever fixed.

Although honestly, there are a ton of other cards I think should be banned along those lines, such as things that can overly hate on basic lands, like Choke, Flashfires, or Boil and keep some colors of mono-color decks from theoretically gaining metagame share beyond a certain level because those cards would start seeing more sideboard slots. Or things like Teferi, Time Raveler and the wonky things it does to certain kinds of decks. Or Veil of Summer... So banning or maintaining a ban on those principles could be inconsistent without a bunch more bans.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

For me Jitte would boost all critter midrange decks, especially hatebears.
I think the main issue is it would be like smugglers' copter was in Pioneer, it would be everywhere in those type of decks. Thing is, there are not really those type of decks in the format. Hatebears, Merfolk, Goblins perhaps. Those decks need a boost.

It might kill burn (though burn exists on legacy fringes with Jitte about, thanks to Sulfuric Vortex). It probably would not make decks like Tron or Titan based decks, nor do much against t3 Tron.


I do think the idea of banning Boil, Flashfire or Choke is like me saying we should ban creatures, and about as likely. These cards do nothing. I would love to see the ban announcement for Karma! 'We thought the potential for Urborg plus Karma was a two card combo we did not want.....'.

Walkers, of course, I wish would should sod off and take those who like them with them. , I will take a format full of Glooms, Stone Rains and Desolations over a format of people tapping creatures to attack planeswalkers, which are standard garbage for people who do not want to play magic,but Creatures, the Gathering.....If anyone finds this offensive, that is how I feel when I hear people arguing for bans of Blood moon, bridge Chalice et al. It was our game first, it was not about creatures, walkers, and that turning sideways garbage. It was about Stasis, Forcefield, Necropotence, Smokestacks, and Serra Angel was a powerhouse!

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