[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
9 months ago
When does double masters release? And when do we think spoiler season will start?
I assume it's August 7 because that's when my Double Masters boxes and VIP boxes are available from my LGS.

*I'm so glad I decided to stay out of the Twin argument this time. :sweat:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Ed06288 » 9 months ago

Was thinking of pre-ordering a box before the hype on spoilers started. But I doubt it is as good as ultimate masters, and I don't care for box toppers that much. So maybe I pass on it anyways.

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

I think its super weird that the survival of modern depends on its implementation on Arena. Personally, I find the style of Arena annoying as hell. all those flashy animations... MTGO much more closely represents the core traits of mtg as a strategic card game. Don't all serious modern players just view Arena as a children's platform with flashy animations? Is the gameplay experience better/more practical than on MODO?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
I think its super weird that the survival of modern depends on its implementation on Arena. Personally, I find the style of Arena annoying as hell. all those flashy animations... MTGO much more closely represents the core traits of mtg as a strategic card game. Don't all serious modern players just view Arena as a children's platform with flashy animations? Is the gameplay experience better/more practical than on MODO?
I don't play online, but I watch online. I refuse to watch Arena. I have done it a few times for players like Huey Jensen and Gabriel Nassif, but didn't like it at all. I watch MTGO all ... the ... time. I've also been tempted to start MTGO, tempted mostly by Cube and Modern. I would never join Arena, at least from what I hear from players all the time.

I think some like it because it goes faster. Maybe I'm wrong about that?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
I'm going to ignore everything else in this diatribe to focus on this. Because frankly, do we?

Like I understand that from a design standpoint it's obnoxious and does far more than it ever should. So... what deck is abusing it to the point of making it broken? What real world example is showing us this is too good? Why isn't Snoop or Storm splashing for it? Why isn't Ad Nauseum doing better having shoved a few in? What is actually showing this card is busted? Is there anything? Or just this hypothetical Twin monster that everyone is talking about and no one seems to show? Combined with our hatred of the stupid design of the card?
Ignoring me doesn't make anything I said wrong, but you do you. Astrolabe was just banned for being 4-ofs in 30ish% of the decks, while Veil is 2+ in almost 40+% of Modern. But, sure, it's fine, while Astrolabe was deemed too powerful Almost all the best decks and all combo decks in Modern are Green or playing Green for Veil. Yet there's no "real world example" that's showing us that it's (too) good?. The %$#%...

How far down the rabbit hole will you go to ignore every relevant thing against Twin, while propping up any and all bad tests that show Twin is bad? Because, you're not having a conversation you're trying to shut any and all disagreement. And again with the appeal to popularity. We don't have to show you all possible lists, any more that you have to prove to us that all the possible lists that are bad. Stop making this disingenuous argument ad nauseam.

The sad part is, this all started with you getting defensive over a stupid phrase that was wrong on both the historical context and in the context of the video, yet you still haven't acknowledged that and still are getting defensive (among ignoring other things).
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
I know what's going to happen though. Most of your arguments are going to be ignored, so are you sure you want to lose some more time debating on this?
It's hardly a debate when everything you say is ignored or met with fallacies and sarcasm.
Ed06288 wrote:
9 months ago
When does double masters release? And when do we think spoiler season will start?
I think previews start this Monday and are going on for a week, so I assume 7th of August as a release date is correct.
Ed06288 wrote:
9 months ago
When playtesting traverse shadow against control, veil of sumner feels like my only way to win. 3 mana teferi is also really strong against me, bouncing my tarmogoyfs and stuff. I feel that if the opponent can have teferi, i should get to have veil of summer. maybe teferi and veil should only be banned together in a pair.
I've long said that both have to go, but Veil is a higher priority (I even put it above Astrolabe, but alas). Of the two, T3feri is more "restrictive" in that it is 3 mana and 2 colors, but still a minor distinction, both shouldn't even exist.

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Pioneer is going to hit Arena. They already said so today and another time, some weeks ago. Modern seems kind of rough, because the number of cards that should be brought in is too many.
I think that what they said was Pioneer Masters would release. Not that it would be the entire format? Just that set, which would of course help to lay the groundwork for Pioneer but it doesn't fully move the format over.

In a similar idea that adding just the cards that see play from older sets would effectively bring most of Modern over with only a fraction of the effort. In fact, I figured out the numbers a few weeks/months ago. It would require adding fewer total cards to effectively put Modern on Arena (adding the 500 most played cards not yet on the platform, this consists of every non other category deck on mtgtop8), than to add all of Return to Ravnica+Gatecrash combined. And for the time being, lists of cards to add that aren't yet moved over could be compiled from MTGO statistics.

Roughly 2 Pioneer Masters worth of MTGA only releases could effectively put Modern on the platform, and a Pioneer Masters covers about 40% of the cards that would need added anyways so it's also a cheap way to effectively put Pioneer on the platform, as Pioneer Masters as long as individual cards rather than entire sets are ok with players.

Though, from what I've heard of their rules engine to import cards (reads oracle text, parses what it does, so cards don't need programmed individually), moving cards over shouldn't be that labor intensive in the first place.

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Post by pierreb » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
True. So if you happen to have Veil in your hand, and was on the play (meaning you lost game 1), and the mana to cast it, and another one to protect your combo, which you also have, while taking damage from a wide board of Goblins, then sure.
You don't need it turn 1, you don't need to be on the play.

If I'm a GDS player and I thougthseize you on turn one and I see your Jeskai Twin hand as: (Cryptic could be any other tempo/control/removal card) I'm going to pick twin or exarch. Teferi I can kill with damage or deal with it later. It's a 3 CMC sorcery speed card.

OTOH, if I see your hand as a Temur Twin with veil, I'll *have* to take out veil right now. Veil protects your combo against thoughtseize *even without playing it*. That's how good the card is. Veil in twin is either:
  • Zero mana 1-for-1 against discard.
  • 1-mana cantrip against discard.
  • 1-mana cantrip against counter.
  • 1-mana protect-combo while going off.
It just makes twin much better. It's much better than T3feri. Does it makes twin too-good? IDK, true, I'm not testing twin. But my point remain: veil is much better than T3feri. Playing Jeskai twin is diluting the combo to get more specific answers main or SB. Temur twin is more all-in. Gree can even bring in tutors. I think Twin would be better as Temur.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
9 months ago
Re: Twin talk
Limited Twin talk is okay. Extensive discussions of testing, card choices, and lists is not, as it dominates the thread. Please take that elsewhere, such as viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16911.

Re: Pioneer Masters
I'll say it before and say it again. Modern is a dead duck if it does not come to Arena. If Pioneer is the format of choice for Arena and Wizards never releases any cards to support Modern, then Modern is on borrowed time through 2021 or maybe a bit later. That said, Wizards has released cards in Historic that are not even Pioneer legal. This suggests there is still long-term room for Modern or even other formats to take root on the platform. For instance, Historic might just be a better Pioneer in the long run. But if Wizards takes all that off the table and definitively says "Modern will never come to Arena: Pioneer will be that platform's nonrotating format" then we're toast.
I have been saying this, exactly this, and loudly.....toast is right...

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
Ignoring me doesn't make anything I said wrong
I would happily go through point by point, but I'm trying to respect the requests of the moderators.

There is an entire other thread for you to share your lists and data and recorded matches. 👍

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Saying that Jtms and Sfm being fine, means twin is also going to be fine or that people were wrong in the past are not arguments.
But you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine, it's HOW people described them before their unbans. Their fire & brimstone comments of "obviously broken" "totally overpowered" "way too good" "destroy the format" and other things that mirror exactly what you are saying about Twin. Never mind that you are also saying you have this trove of data and proof that you repeatedly refuse to produce.

I've provided plenty of arguments that you choose to ignore and dismiss. And I would be happy to continue doing that. But I will not continue to bog down this thread refuting the unsupported drivel you continue to push. So either post your evidence, matches, lists, and results, or shut up about Twin indefinitely. Don't be a hypocrite by continuing the charade here.
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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

Tbh I think it could be worth a try to release it on a trial period. Release it with the explicit intention to reban if this and this and that happens, with a specific reban/evaluation date set. Exclusively look at win %, not how widely it is played (so neither hype nor willful supression of numbers dilute the data).

Because 1) its true that people were wrong about Jace/Visions. I even thought BBE and Thopter Foundry might be problematic.

2) the test videos I have seen so far are inconclusive. A common theme is that the Twin deck underperforms, and then most people say "the deck was suboptimally built. If this and that was different, the deck would be op.

I actually think the burden of proof lies with the people who want the unban, because they're the ones trying to reverse what at the time was a good ban in retrospect.

In other words, no offence @cfusionpm, but why havent you built a temur Twin deck with Veil of Summer you as an experienced twin pilot think is optimal and run it through a gountlet of all the top tier decks. Get in 100 matches, write an article if it turns out you're right, get the ball rolling.

As it is, neither side really know what they're talking about. But I can say confidently that in the time you have been bickering about Twin on here, you could have written a scientific, quantitative paper about it.

I think a ton of people would be interested too. The only danger is (and maybe part of the reason this hasn't happened on a serious level yet) that it turns out twin actually is too good.

Get together with Evar0s and Fapwu- whatever the titan streamer's name is who did the last Twin test I saw, to get a platform. Reconfigure the deck until its so tight the "suboptimal build" argument doesn't hold water anymore, and get testing. Make an "Unban Twin" discord to get more matches more quickly from several good players (there must be a small army of experienced ex-twin players wanting that unban.).

I remember that at the time, I thought the twin ban was correct. But if I see evidence that it would be fine now, I'd personally have no problem with an unban. I think most people are more sick of the endless arguments than they are against an unban itself.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
In other words, no offence @cfusionpm, but why havent you built a temur Twin deck with Veil of Summer you as an experienced twin pilot think is optimal and run it through a gountlet of all the top tier decks. Get in 100 matches, write an article if it turns out you're right, get the ball rolling.
Honestly, I have other priorities in my life. I am now the primary caretaker for our toddler because it's summer and I'm not teaching (and lord knows whatever is going to happen in the Fall that I have to prepare for). What little free time I do have is often limited to mobile devices while watching her, or whatever I can accomplish during naps. The chunks of time I can get from coverage (usually by family member) are spent doing things I find much more fun: Often D&D, other board games, or Commander. I jump in Modern MTGO matches from time to time, but not nearly enough to put any meaningful amount of time or effort into exhaustive testing.

It just baffles me to no end how adamantly strong people are, yet how utterly impossible it is to get anything out of them other than their subjective words. And the one time I post a video of matches with constant commentary between players about their decks, construction, play choices, board states, and interactions, it's just outright dismissed because tiny elements clash with their mysterious data sets they refuse to share. So you know what? F**k it. I just don't care anymore. I just wish they would put up or shut up.

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Post by Mapccu » 9 months ago

Honestly much of the recent cluster of cards that have been kinda nuts is probably pressure from the top of the food chain at WotC to give some juice to branding. Knowing that you're getting ready to roll out a huge product (arena), there really is no better way to get players excited outside of putting cards that want to open/play/etc into the sets.

Looking back over the last 3 years,, energy was a mistake but not really a heavy handed one. A few cards were overturned (Rogue Refiner or Aetherworks Marvel) but the set was okay. It really didn't throw formats like legacy and modern into tailspin. Fast forward to arena introduction and what came out from rav onward and its a much different game.

This all seems purposeful to me and I'm not sure the designers have as much of a handle of mechanics as I think they do. F.I.R.E. Is a lot harder to pull off when you can't rely on any of your formulas of success. Top says bring in some power to generate hype to help product launch, design team pushes back some but ultimately has to figure it out, they do the best they can and we end up with crap like Conspicuous Snoop that has more relevant tribal text and stats than almost any other card in tribe in the last 25 years. We're literally seeing card after card if just ability soup and needless complexity on a card by card level. When a deck is full of 16 unique cards that all have 2-3 active or triggered abilities at various steps the game becomes less approachable.

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
But you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine
That has been said about every card that started off banned in the format. The thing is though, the difference is that Twin was in the format at one point and we have some evidence of what it does given the available answers. Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, these never got tested so no one had any experience to judge from other than Legacy, and they were surrounded by hyperbole which is common for this format.

MInus some very, very good reasons which I don't think anyone has really provided there's really not a reason to make risky unbans. There's only a handful of bans that are highly likely to be safe and with format confidence at it's lowest point ever, unbans are not the place to take risks.
Mapccu wrote:
9 months ago
This all seems purposeful to me and I'm not sure the designers have as much of a handle of mechanics as I think they do. F.I.R.E. Is a lot harder to pull off when you can't rely on any of your formulas of success. Top says bring in some power to generate hype to help product launch, design team pushes back some but ultimately has to figure it out, they do the best they can and we end up with crap like Conspicuous Snoop that has more relevant tribal text and stats than almost any other card in tribe in the last 25 years. We're literally seeing card after card if just ability soup and needless complexity on a card by card level. When a deck is full of 16 unique cards that all have 2-3 active or triggered abilities at various steps the game becomes less approachable.
I think Snoop and some other cards are one of their current designers really wanting to play around in Future Sight design space. That's why we've had all the variants on that lately. As someone who likes those effects, I'm enjoying it.

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
But you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine, it's HOW people described them before their unbans. Their fire & brimstone comments of "obviously broken" "totally overpowered" "way too good" "destroy the format" and other things that mirror exactly what you are saying about Twin. Never mind that you are also saying you have this trove of data and proof that you repeatedly refuse to produce.

I've provided plenty of arguments that you choose to ignore and dismiss. And I would be happy to continue doing that. But I will not continue to bog down this thread refuting the unsupported drivel you continue to push. So either post your evidence, matches, lists, and results, or shut up about Twin indefinitely. Don't be a hypocrite by continuing the charade here.
Your arguments have been like the above, Point to a faceless mass of people that said that SFM/JtMS or whatever other unbanned card would break Modern, therefore our criticisms and reservations of both the playing and the list on videos such as the Goldfish one are invalid. That's it. Then you turn and ask us for proof that our criticisms or reservations are true, while you keep pointing on such heavily flawed videos as proof that Twin will be fine.

We haven't ignored your arguments, we've countered them and instead of reciprocating in a fruitful discussion you've shut down, became defensive and resorted to fallacies, mocking and ignoring those counters.

If you think that logical arguments based on both the history of Modern and the reality of what cards exist now and how they can be used are "unsupported drivel" then, seriously, %$#% you. Post your evidence that Twin will be fine. If you can't don't be such a dick and demand of others of what you will not do, either because of not having time or because you don't want to. In essence put up or shut up, because the videos you hold as proof aren't it.
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
It just baffles me to no end how adamantly strong people are, yet how utterly impossible it is to get anything out of them other than their subjective words. And the one time I post a video of matches with constant commentary between players about their decks, construction, play choices, board states, and interactions, it's just outright dismissed because tiny elements clash with their mysterious data sets they refuse to share. So you know what? F**k it. I just don't care anymore. I just wish they would put up or shut up.
We didn't dismiss it, we criticized it. Stop misrepresenting those with different opinions than you and you'll be fine. You haven't done that. Asking others to "put up or shut up" is ironic when you won't do that. Flawed evidence can be criticized on it "merits", we don't need to present detailed lists or matchup statistics to point to the glaring flaws in both playing and constructing the presented lists.
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Post by Mapccu » 9 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
But you are missing the point entirely. It's not THAT Jace and SFM are fine
That has been said about every card that started off banned in the format. The thing is though, the difference is that Twin was in the format at one point and we have some evidence of what it does given the available answers. Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision, JTMS, Stoneforge Mystic, these never got tested so no one had any experience to judge from other than Legacy, and they were surrounded by hyperbole which is common for this format.

MInus some very, very good reasons which I don't think anyone has really provided there's really not a reason to make risky unbans. There's only a handful of bans that are highly likely to be safe and with format confidence at it's lowest point ever, unbans are not the place to take risks.
Mapccu wrote:
9 months ago
This all seems purposeful to me and I'm not sure the designers have as much of a handle of mechanics as I think they do. F.I.R.E. Is a lot harder to pull off when you can't rely on any of your formulas of success. Top says bring in some power to generate hype to help product launch, design team pushes back some but ultimately has to figure it out, they do the best they can and we end up with crap like Conspicuous Snoop that has more relevant tribal text and stats than almost any other card in tribe in the last 25 years. We're literally seeing card after card if just ability soup and needless complexity on a card by card level. When a deck is full of 16 unique cards that all have 2-3 active or triggered abilities at various steps the game becomes less approachable.
I think Snoop and some other cards are one of their current designers really wanting to play around in Future Sight design space. That's why we've had all the variants on that lately. As someone who likes those effects, I'm enjoying it.
I do like them exploring CA with restrictions, but it's being heavily used recently. Mystic Forge is another example and while it's exciting, it really begins to turn off your opponents ability to swing a game back in their favor. I'm not just hoping you top deck a way to stabilize, I'm hoping the top 2-3 cards aren't going to bury me if I don't untap and answer your board when you stick these cards.

Future Sight is fine because it's awhile before it hits the board. Snoop does that on curve with a respectable body for the tribe.

The level of information and potential decision trees expands quite a bit when these cards enter the fray though. I enjoy that, but it's not an easy thing to navigate for newer players. "It's only a 2/2, I can survive that for a couple turns until I have a bigger threat." When the rationale should be "that's representing multiple plays a turn, digging them deeper to a bomb or combo - it needs to go."

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
We didn't dismiss it, we criticized it.
No you didn't. Your point boiled down to "You're wrong, I'm right, and just trust me on it. I don't need to prove why."
So just stop. Shut up about Twin or post your data in that thread.
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Post by Simto » 9 months ago

Can't we all not just get along guys? :)

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Post by The Fluff » 9 months ago

I think veil has to be banned first for Twin to have a chance of unban, Veil is too good of a support card for the combo.
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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Also, saying "shut up or post your data" is not the way to go,
I asked politely numerous times. I said that because I am sick and tired of you droning on endlessly about how much vast experience you have, yet you refuse to even show the slightest bit of information about that experience. Lists? Matchups? Win rates? Recorded matches? Nothing. So why should anyone believe anything you have to say? Because it *feels* true?

Is Veil too good? Maybe. But let's not worry about that when Spell Pierce that could already could stop early discard spells anyway... So maybe show why Veil a problem, rather than fantasizing about a fictional apocalyptic reality that mirrors the horror stories we heard (even from you) about cards like Jace and Stoneforge. You were wrong then. Why aren't you wrong now? Because of "experience" and "testing results" you refuse to share? OK. :sleepy:
The Fluff wrote:
9 months ago
I think veil has to be banned first for Twin to have a chance of unban, Veil is too good of a support card for the combo.
Why? What combo deck is using it today? And is it too good there?

Like I agree Veil should be banned, but on principle of design, not on any actual application. Because so far literally nothing has shown it's actually broken. Just annoying and obnoxious (like most 2019+ designs).
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Like I agree Veil should be banned, but on principle of design, not on any actual application. Because so far literally nothing has shown it's actually broken. Just annoying and obnoxious (like most 2019+ designs).
I think it's hard to argue this.

I feel like the unban Twin vs. leave it banned camps boil down to this - just to simplify.

1. Leave it banned - I actually don't believe that many people think it will be broken. The majority of people are not looking at this like a Eye of Ugin, Hogaak type of card in today's meta. But they don't see it as a Green Sun's Zenith type of unban either. They see Twin being a real player in the format and I many just don't want to think of that again. It doesn't matter if it is the 2nd or 9th best deck. People will play it; that much is hard to argue from either side. There are so many things to worry about in Modern, but some of them rarely come up like Infect or Neobrand. Twin would come up at a higher clip and require some hate cards or at least a strong game plan. Many people don't want this. Some others just want something else to have its day in the Sun - Simic has ruled for a while, GBx and URx did in the past. How about something else? And I do actually believe that there are a few people that do believe that it would be "semi" broken and would be in the top 2 of decks or maybe even the best. They feel like WotC can't be trusted not to keep printing stuff that breaks Twin and then it would need to be banned again.

2. The unban camp comes down to a few semi groups. Some really love to play the style and don't think it will break anything right now. If it does, WotC is free to ban it again. Some don't see a problem with this (and I will say that I am one of them, especially since now they are doing "suspending" lol in Historic). Others really don't believe it will be as good as it once was. There is power creep and although much of it has been banned, there still are things that are better to do. Remember, as @cfusionpm and many others have repeated. This really sounds like the same type of fear mongering that happened with Ancestral Vision, Sword of the Meek, Golgari-Grave Troll until new cards broke it, Jace, the MS, Stoneforge Mystic, Bloodbraid Elf, and probably plenty more.

*People are always scared and imagine much stronger things right until they get unbanned. We can constantly harp about "so and so" helping the card too much. This can always happen. While timing is important, nothing is ever going to be perfect. Do you think Jace, the Mind Sculptor was perfect? No, it could have easily broke. If all of the Snow crap and newer designs happened around the time of JTMS, I guarantee you that JTMS is back on the ban list and not Arcum's Astrolabe, YET.

Are we going to wait until no one plays an Island before unbanning Preordain? Are we going to wait until no single card from past 2016 slots into the Twin deck? Are we going to wait until nobody plays Forest before GSZ? It is not a prerequisite that every condition must be absolutely 100% safe. No unban has ever been safe if you think that way; not even Sword of the Meek. Remember the fear of Ancestral Vision with Bloodbraid Elf? Lol. I think 13 people played that and then no one (at least that has won over 50% of their matches) ever played that in combination ever again. Funny people.
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Ed06288
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Post by Ed06288 » 9 months ago

It's purely hypothetical whether splinter twin becomes unbanned in the future. May as well just find another deck you enjoy and play that. A local shop near me is having tournaments and attendance is good and I'm just having fun with the game at the moment. Not worried about grinding grand prix or regionals or anything else. Format should be a little better with astrolabe gone. EDH is also taking off, I'm gonna buy a pre-made deck and have fun losing with it lol.

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

Ed06288 wrote:
9 months ago
It's purely hypothetical whether splinter twin becomes unbanned in the future. May as well just find another deck you enjoy and play that. A local shop near me is having tournaments and attendance is good and I'm just having fun with the game at the moment. Not worried about grinding grand prix or regionals or anything else. Format should be a little better with astrolabe gone. EDH is also taking off, I'm gonna buy a pre-made deck and have fun losing with it lol.
Let us know how that goes. I am interested. I live in California and we are not going to see paper play again until the end of September at the very minimum. I treasured the 3 weeks of paper play that we had recently. :love:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Ym1r
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Post by Ym1r » 9 months ago

This "let's drop the Twin discussion yet we constantly talk about Twin" discussion is even more exhausting that talking about Twin.
Counter, draw a card.

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Simto
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Post by Simto » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Because so far literally nothing has shown it's actually broken. Just annoying and obnoxious
That's basically the grounds for why Lattice was banned, so I don't see why Wizards can't ban another card for that reason.

That being said, I just bought two Veil for my sideboard lol... I feel like a bad guy now, but I usually lose anyway, so who cares.

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