[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Guardman
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Post by Guardman » 1 year ago

My two cents on Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (and to a lesser extent Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger) vs. white. They are very strangely designed cards that do a bunch of things and all in a way where the answers that white (and this can also be extended out to other colors as well) has are either awkward, inefficient, or just plain don't work. And from my experience it is because of the following factors they both have:
  • When cast from hand they are meant to effectively be spells with ETB triggers, meaning usual removal is not as efficient. In addition, the "best" white answer, Path to Exile, is especially bad against a cast Uro since it is just additional ramp. Usually if a format is having a problem with strong ETB creatures, white has great answers in cards like Tocatli Honor Guard. But because they are meant to be sacrificed when cast, they are effectively extremely undercosted fatties. In most cases a Tocatli Honor Guard stopping their ETB triggers would be a boon to them, not a drawback.
  • They have attack triggers. This is related to the point above because it makes Tocatli Honor Guard effects even worse. Not only do they get an undercosted 6/6, but it has a great trigger everytime it attacks.
  • They have built in graveyard recursion which casts them from the graveyard (and pretty easy to achieve restriction of exiling five cards). This leaves some answers which should be answers, like Containment Priest, doing nothing. While anything that doesn't exile them only acts as a roadblock.
  • This last point is more about Uro than Kroxa, but it is both a wincondition, recurrent threat, and something that ramps you into/finds other threats/gains you life. Uro, and to a lesser extent Kroxa, is a swiss-army knife of a magic card, that does a bit of everything well, and requires multiple different cards to truly answer.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
2020 is not 2015. And this video handily shows that.

Feel free to record your own matches and post them if you like. But I'm getting sick and tired of people saying things are "too good" based on "instinct." Especially when nearly every single one of these "instincts" have been wrong previously (AV, Jace, SFM, etc).
I don't have to record and show you anything, when your "discard good" argument is bad, not only in a historical context, but also in the context of the video.

Your post supposes that discard was good against Twin, therefore Jund had a great matchup. That was patently untrue. Now, even if you suppose it is good now, the video established that a tuned combo list, that has a good matchup against control can defeat an untuned, haphazardly made Twin list if it goes double discard against a combo/control deck. Guess what, most decks would lose to that opener. It also showed that "discard is good" isn't really true, since that Twin list defeated Jund. Lastly, it showed that T3feri is a cancer for the format.

Don't forget that a Twin with Veil maindeck would make those discard and counterspells laughable.

On the "insicts", I was always "for" those cards, so your generalization is invalid. I also didn't say Twin was too good, I said that your justification was wrong and that the implied safety from the existence of discard spells is a non-argument vis-a-vis Jund, and of course now with the existence of Veil.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
2020 is not 2015. And this video handily shows that.

Feel free to record your own matches and post them if you like. But I'm getting sick and tired of people saying things are "too good" based on "instinct." Especially when nearly every single one of these "instincts" have been wrong previously (AV, Jace, SFM, etc).
I don't have to record and show you anything, when your "discard good" argument is bad, not only in a historical context, but also in the context of the video.

Your post supposes that discard was good against Twin, therefore Jund had a great matchup. That was patently untrue. Now, even if you suppose it is good now, the video established that a tuned combo list, that has a good matchup against control can defeat an untuned, haphazardly made Twin list if it goes double discard against a combo/control deck. Guess what, most decks would lose to that opener. It also showed that "discard is good" isn't really true, since that Twin list defeated Jund. Lastly, it showed that T3feri is a cancer for the format.
Did you actually watch the video? The analysis was spot on, especially in the Jund matchup. Paraphrasing: "It was a lot of back and forth, and a lot of decisions mattered. In the other matches I just sort of played my stuff, killed or countered your stuff, and overran you. Here, small costly errors (like not killing Jace and missing Lili activation) ended up costing a game that Jund may have won. They were long, interactive, back and forth games in which decisions mattered. There were ample answers to the combo at every opportunity. Discard, counters, and removal all shined and showed how easy it is to interact with (and how punishing it can be to try and go for it on T4). In the very last game of the last match, Seth was finally able to combo... on turn 9.... with both players left with 0 cards in hand.

Twin getting slapped around by Bant was not surprising in the least bit, and seeing Force and T3feri be absolute POUND TOWN against Twin was everything I assumed it would be. I was very surprised by the whoopin it took from Goblins, but also not surprised. It's an aggressive, fast deck, that packs interaction and has an "oops I win" button. Honestly, likely better than Twin, but hasn't caught on enough yet.
Don't forget that a Twin with Veil maindeck would make those discard and counterspells laughable.
Can you show me that this is a legitimate problem? What version of the deck would run this? Can you make a list? Show me some gameplay? We just saw examples of T3feri and Force, do you want to show me why those are busted too? Because seriously, this is the same fantasy land theorycrafting that told us Jace was going to destroy all non-blue decks and Stoneforge Mystic was going to be so powerful it would overrun every slot in every deck capable of casting it. Show me WHY it's true instead of just repeating it over and over.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
White needs something to stop Uro being cast. After it has been cast it has too much value. It is not, I think you would agree, absurdly powerful to print the following:
How about they just get a Torpor Orb? Stop the ETB triggers, still get the swing triggers, and then play their own Uro's?

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

drmarkb wrote:
1 year ago
White needs something to stop Uro being cast. After it has been cast it has too much value. It is not, I think you would agree, absurdly powerful to print the following:
"WW enchantment when [] comes into play name a creature card. That card cannot be played from the hand or graveyard. Scry 2". I mean it is basically a nevermore, but one less and way more restricted, with a scry as value in case the opponent never draws the card you name. Designs at 2 mana that prevent Uro being cast would not ruin the game, they would make it more fair. Maybe that would be too powerful for you- there are a few people, normally commander players, who think anything that should kill their dude such as countering , discarding or killing before it got a chance to attack is just unfair. I am not saying anyone here is one of them, but they do exist and they are a cancer on the game, because they are the people Uro et al are made for. Fortunately, I have the solution- they can ***** off and play another game....)

I must say, the idea of pathing a mana dork is the oddest thing I have heard for a while, but that aside, but I will take you up on the idea that a single card should not deal with both Ulamog and a mana dork without giving something back (although I would argue life is perfectly fine to give back). White already has Porphyr nodes and a 1cc snow enchantment that do that, and at 3cc the obligatory O ring effects. Scrabbling around referring to rest in peace and Uro is really clutching at straws for my money- a bit like saying Stony silence can deal with Jitte so Jitte would be fine (although it might be, I am using it as an example, you get the drift). Rip is a board card, unless you happen to be playing enchantment prison. The first rule of discussing Path, for me, is that nobody is allowed to mention UW control. Then we can discuss how good it is. White is supposed to be the small creature colour, since they took away its mass kill, land destruction, etc., and UW control, whilst beloved of many including myself, is not the prism though which Path should be viewed.


Removing Uro after it has done its thing is not ever going to match it, it must be preemptive. Again, the focus on UW control in relation to path is something I see time and again. Path is made better in UW control because of the early counterspells, meaning you do not need to path till late. UW also cares a bit less about ramping its opponents than a WW would. The thought of pathing uro with a trigger on the stack does not make me weak with at he knees with a "I got you Uro player, have another land", more like "I am pathing this thing and am dead in 3 turns, probably"
To be fair, with an enchantment, you're already sneakily asking for a card that's impossible to kill for most decks once it resolves. Scry 2, why not, add another goodie ;) but I get where you're coming from. White Weenies is not a thing in modern. And it used to be a core part of White's identity. Now its mostly splash for Path/T3f/Verdict.

But again, I think the core problem regarding Uro specifically is not White's lack of answers, but how insanely broken Uro is as a card. I still believe that Uro is at least as good as Oko, at least in Modern. If anybody asked me for the "best" card in modern, I'd say Uro without blinking. It's just too stuffed with effects. Ramp/life gain/card draw is just easily 1 thing too many for the cost. And while it's easy enough to stop Uro from recurring (see Cling, any gy hate etc), the fact that you kind of "have to" let it resolve (or spend a card on it) before you can remove it permanently is just absurd.

My deck specifically is fine vs Uro. I Cling it, get the Value back with Snap or Cling-escape down the line, no biggie.

Giver of Runes into Meddling Mage could be a thing... I realize I'm grasping at straws here.

Maybe mono-white creature decks just have to splash black or blue to survive? For what it's worth, I don't think Uro is the only problem those kinds of decks have. Options are just lackluster all around. Giver/Ranger-Captain/Stoneforge/Thalia are all good cards in theory, but it's all a little too fair, a little to small-scale. I mean, Mono-White Taxes has gotten better in the last years too, but not to the extent that was necessary for it to keep up with the power explosion of a lot of other cards. It used to be a really good deck for a while, always a bit meta-call-y, but a presence in modern nontheless.

I don't know what it needs. But I don't think just giving it a good answer to a specific card is a solution. The card you described for example sucks balls against a lot of non-Uro stuff. 2cmc Meddling Mage without a body is great vs interaction, but in matchups where you need to also race, its frequently a do-%$#%-card^^.

I'm probably getting lapidated in a second, but I've always maintained that 1) Uro was purely there to console all the poor Oko-pilots post Oko-ban, 2) Uro is just as stupid and broken a card as Oko, 3) Uro is staggeringly badly designed (and im 100% sure they made it as good as it is on purpose, they'd have to be blind and stupid as %$#% to not have seen that when tacking ability after ability on the card). It's a bad time to say this because we just had a banning that hits Uro decks, AND it was a correct and necessary ban at that. But imo that fact shouldn't give Uro an automatic free pass. Apart from Astrolabe, Uro has been the defining card of the modern format since it's printing. I personally have found a way to beat it consistently, but a lot of other strategies don't have that luxury and for them, Uro is an unbeatable, lights-out card.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

I'm not understanding the problem with White dealing with Uro. They literally have our format's most efficient removal for it in Path to Exile. Yeah, you give them a land, and no that doesn't feel good, but what other commonly played removal spell permanently deals with that Uro? And for 1 mana? Push? no. Bolt? no. Dismember? no. I guess black now has Cling to Dust? But it's not nearly as versatile as "Exile any creature." White remains, by far and away, the single best color equipped to fight Uro.

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I'm not understanding the problem with White dealing with Uro. They literally have our format's most efficient removal for it in Path to Exile. Yeah, you give them a land, and no that doesn't feel good, but what other commonly played removal spell permanently deals with that Uro? And for 1 mana? Push? no. Bolt? no. Dismember? no. I guess black now has Cling to Dust? But it's not nearly as versatile as "Exile any creature." White remains, by far and away, the single best color equipped to fight Uro.
I guess it's because pathing Uro makes it a "1GU: Gain 3 life, draw a card, opp discards a card (their path), search a basic and put it into play tapped, make a landdrop." Path does answer Uro, but it's half a game concession at the same time. If that happens on turn 3, you're setting the Uro deck up to untap on turn 4 and have 6 mana up and a full hand. That's probably a situation you can't come back from for 99% of the time as a white creature deck (or most decks, for that matter). It's not as bad if it happens on turn 6 or 7, but if opp casts an Uro on turn 3, you're most probably %$#% wether you path Uro or not as a deck like that.

Compare that to clinging it, where you gain 3 life, don't give them a free land, and can escape Cling for value down the line. That's basically a clean trade with Uro. Path is miles away from that.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

And? I mean, Uro is a stupid card, but what deals with it better than Path? Even counterspells just put it in the graveyard.

I'm scratching my head at the idea of complaining about Path when.... What is the better option to deal with Uro? And if you there is no profitable way to deal with Uro, that seems like a problem with Uro itself, and not Path.

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Post by Guardman » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago

We've danced around this one a little bit, so let's just come out and say it—the next Pioneer-focused set remaster will be a Pioneer Masters set. Like the Modern Masters tabletop product, this digital card set will be looking at all the sets currently legal in Pioneer and pulling them together into a single set for both Limited and Constructed play. Players should expect our first (but likely not the last) Pioneer Masters set by the end of 2020
Pioneer coming into arena late into 2020. Since this is a Modern based thread, although I am not sure about the implication s on Modern, I can't imagine those news are any good about Modern. Not good at all. I remember @ktkenshinx saying this might be the end of Modern.

It's possible Wizards let this announcement out in response to the backlash the recent B&R Pioneer had. Also, I suspect some bannings on Pioneer as well, in due time. For now, it's all about Historic. When the PT ends, I can imagine Wizards will get down with Pioneer more responsibly.
While Pioneer Masters is coming to arena, I doubt Pioneer itself is coming. I believe it will just be added to Historic. For one there is too many cards that need to be added, and I doubt Wizards has the time or resources to do it all in 2020. It will probably take them a few years at least, if it ever does come. Two, Historic already has diverged a lot from Pioneer's card pool with the release of Jumpstart and some of the cards from the Anthologies. I seriously doubt they feel the need to or want to rush Pioneer onto Arena.

I think overall the fact Pioneer Masters is coming to Arena is neutral to modern.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

This should be irrelevant. Pioneer Masters is a reprint set, like Modern Masters. Not a new-infusion set, like Modern Horizons. Literally does nothing to change what was already a dying format. It's also irrelevant to Modern, as it solidifies the disregard they have for managing Pioneer and are content letting it rot.

I imagine the reason they didn't make any bannings in the PERFECT window to do so (literally NOBODY is playing in paper, and Pioneer events can't even fire on MTGO), is because they have cards that could/would/should have been banned included in this new master's set. And it would look reeeaalllyy silly to do something like ban Inverter, and then have that card be one of the chase mythics of Pioneer Masters. They'll just do what they did with Twin. Print it, let people spend their hard earned money on it, then ban it out from under them. Hooray.

As for MTGA, it's still not Pioneer. It's just another bastardized, arbitrary amalgamation forcing players to buy packs and use precious wildcards to play yet another format that doesn't matter.

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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

Not to mention Pioneer itself is probably the format in the worst possible state right now right behind standard. That format needs some serious loving but instead gets worse and worse each set just like Legacy and Modern. These past 18 months have shown nothing but my inability to trust anything Wizards does anymore with their product

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Can you show me that this is a legitimate problem? What version of the deck would run this? Can you make a list? Show me some gameplay? We just saw examples of T3feri and Force, do you want to show me why those are busted too? Because seriously, this is the same fantasy land theorycrafting that told us Jace was going to destroy all non-blue decks and Stoneforge Mystic was going to be so powerful it would overrun every slot in every deck capable of casting it. Show me WHY it's true instead of just repeating it over and over.
You keep arguing something I didn't say. You keep arguing "for" Twin on the basis of that video, when in effect it was a sloppy list made by someone who doesn't really play either competitive or control decks in general. He also %$#% up in the first game against Goblins. I argued that your quip of "discard good, people misrepresent or "forget" that for reasons" was a bad argument, and you keep going on a tangent.

If you think showcasing that Twin can be beaten up by 2 of its bad matchups and a toss up, them being Control (we already knew that it'd lose, so care...?), BRx combo/aggro deck with Vials, Caverns some disruption and not a care for spot removals or Remands and Jund, then I don't know what to tell you. By mere selection of decks Twin was bound to lose, especially with that sloppy of a decklist.

As a sidenote, T3feri showcased more how toxic he is to interaction, rather than how good he is against Twin specifically. He was toxic against Bant and Jund.

You keep making appeals to popularity as if, one I was part of that group and two as if my arguments that the existence of Veil slotting into a combo deck would improve it are wrong. You aren't countering what I'm saying, you're just wailing that "people" were wrong about X cards before, so they MUST be wrong about Twin. If anything you're not arguing in good faith. Either tell me why Veil won't be played in Twin, or it will be bad in it, because logical arguments don't really need video evidence.

We have a list that performed as expected, since it was both sub optimal and played against 2 of its bad matchups. Veil simply stops 2 of the major weaknesses of the combo and it has fewer dead match ups in comparison to, say, Remand. That is my argument.
th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Compare that to clinging it, where you gain 3 life, don't give them a free land, and can escape Cling for value down the line. That's basically a clean trade with Uro. Path is miles away from that.
To be fair, Cling isn't AS clean as one might argue, you're still down a Card and they lost something from their GY, which they might've replayed or not, so you can't really do a 1-to-1 comparison. It's in the middle ground between extracting cards from their library and trading a removal for Uro.

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Post by pierreb » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Did you actually watch the video?
Right from the very first game in the video, against RB goblins:
  • veil would have prevented the discard in the first turn and bet a card.
  • Veil would have protected against munition expert and won the game for twin since it had exarch and twin.
So yeah, better deck building and veil in particular would have made Twin even better, right there in that video in the very first game. That a 1-mana instant that actually protect your combo and protect your early game is better than a sorcery-speed, 3 mana answer that sit on the board, ready to be removed is hardly surprising. I didn't bother to watch more.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Can you show me that this is a legitimate problem? What version of the deck would run this? Can you make a list? Show me some gameplay? We just saw examples of T3feri and Force, do you want to show me why those are busted too? Because seriously, this is the same fantasy land theorycrafting that told us Jace was going to destroy all non-blue decks and Stoneforge Mystic was going to be so powerful it would overrun every slot in every deck capable of casting it. Show me WHY it's true instead of just repeating it over and over.
You keep arguing something I didn't say. You keep arguing "for" Twin on the basis of that video, when in effect it was a sloppy list made by someone who doesn't really play either competitive or control decks in general. He also %$#% up in the first game against Goblins. I argued that your quip of "discard good, people misrepresent or "forget" that for reasons" was a bad argument, and you keep going on a tangent.
So what list would you use? Do you have one that would use T3feri? How would that change T3feri's effectiveness? Let me know when you get on that.
If you think showcasing that Twin can be beaten up by 2 of its bad matchups and a toss up, them being Control (we already knew that it'd lose, so care...?), BRx combo/aggro deck with Vials, Caverns some disruption and not a care for spot removals or Remands and Jund, then I don't know what to tell you. By mere selection of decks Twin was bound to lose, especially with that sloppy of a decklist.
I thought Twin had no bad matchups? And was an unbeatable, unstoppable machine? Because of cards like Force? And T3feri? Or is the fact that two current high-tier decks handily taking it to the cleaners (Gobbos and Bant)?
As a sidenote, T3feri showcased more how toxic he is to interaction, rather than how good he is against Twin specifically. He was toxic against Bant and Jund.
This, I agree with. However, I think considering that pretty much every non-Splinter-Twin card in Twin is an instant or has flash, T3feri is much more of a burden and detriment to Twin than in any way helps it.
Either tell me why Veil won't be played in Twin, or it will be bad in it, because logical arguments don't really need video evidence. Veil simply stops 2 of the major weaknesses of the combo.
Well you said it would be main decked, which is just silly. And out of the side, the roll of Dispel already handled protecting the combo quite well in the 1cmc slot. So the upgrade is to then protect against discard, but then forces you into 3 colors, which makes your manabase very painful or very unreliable (Seth noted a number of times the conflict of needing RR alongside enough Islands to make Mystic Sanctuary work, as well as frequently needing to shock himself down a considerable amount every single game).

But again, to your comment about T3feri, Veil being a problem isn't a problem with Twin, it's a problem with Veil. Like, Veil should never have been printed in the first place, and should have been banned at every announcement since its printing. Its factor in Twin should be irrelevant. But if you actually do want to show me why it's such a problem, go ahead and build a Temur list and record some matches against a gauntlet of top decks.

To me, it's much more than just the outcomes. Its watching the interactions, listening to both sides of commentary from both players, and hearing them reflect on their actions, lines of play, and relative strengths. Which is more than I can say about those who won't stop telling me how broken Veil is, but don't have anything to show for it.
Last edited by cfusionpm 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

pierreb wrote:
1 year ago
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Did you actually watch the video?
Right from the very first game in the video, against RB goblins:
  • veil would have prevented the discard in the first turn and bet a card.
  • Veil would have protected against munition expert and won the game for twin since it had exarch and twin.
So yeah, better deck building and veil in particular would have made Twin even better, right there in that video in the very first game. That a 1-mana instant that actually protect your combo and protect your early game is better than a sorcery-speed, 3 mana answer that sit on the board, ready to be removed is hardly surprising. I didn't bother to watch more.
True. So if you happen to have Veil in your hand, and was on the play (meaning you lost game 1), and the mana to cast it, and another one to protect your combo, which you also have, while taking damage from a wide board of Goblins, then sure.

I'd love to see your Temur list.

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Compare that to clinging it, where you gain 3 life, don't give them a free land, and can escape Cling for value down the line. That's basically a clean trade with Uro. Path is miles away from that.
To be fair, Cling isn't AS clean as one might argue, you're still down a Card and they lost something from their GY, which they might've replayed or not, so you can't really do a 1-to-1 comparison. It's in the middle ground between extracting cards from their library and trading a removal for Uro.
That's technically true, but they also spent their turn tapping out while you spent one black at instant speed. You're basically temporarily sacrificing a card, but Cling itself can get that card back at instant-speed when there's a window on turn 4/5/6. Uro decks typically have a pretty greedy curve so tempo swings matter a lot. You are also free to cling the Uro the turn it is cast/your own turn after that/or the turns upkeep/drawstep when they'd be able to escape it, so you can pick the perfect spot for sniping it out of their GY.

It's not a clean 1-for-1, but in practice, all these things considered, I've found it to be an even trade. Additionally, the same Cling that took care of the first Uro can also take care of every other Uro down the line.

(unless they have 7 mana to do it all in one go, so they stack the life/draw/landrop trigger on top of the sac trigger, and when the sac trigger resolves they get to escape Uro without me getting priority to exile it. Am I correct about this? Hope so... but in that case Uro just gets countered and then exiled^^)

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Re: Twin talk
Limited Twin talk is okay. Extensive discussions of testing, card choices, and lists is not, as it dominates the thread. Please take that elsewhere, such as viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16911.

Re: Pioneer Masters
I'll say it before and say it again. Modern is a dead duck if it does not come to Arena. If Pioneer is the format of choice for Arena and Wizards never releases any cards to support Modern, then Modern is on borrowed time through 2021 or maybe a bit later. That said, Wizards has released cards in Historic that are not even Pioneer legal. This suggests there is still long-term room for Modern or even other formats to take root on the platform. For instance, Historic might just be a better Pioneer in the long run. But if Wizards takes all that off the table and definitively says "Modern will never come to Arena: Pioneer will be that platform's nonrotating format" then we're toast.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Twin talk
Limited Twin talk is okay. Extensive discussions of testing, card choices, and lists is not, as it dominates the thread. Please take that elsewhere, such as viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16911.
Understood. As long as we are on the same page that comments like "It's obviously broken because of card X, Y, or Z" is neither helpful nor constructive without any further such details. I was happy to have a broader discussion based on the observations, interactions, and commentary presented in the video. Instead, it's the same old tired and unsupported arguments. I'll happily take them into that thread if literally anyone wants to support their claims there.
Re: Pioneer Masters
I'll say it before and say it again. Modern is a dead duck if it does not come to Arena. If Pioneer is the format of choice for Arena and Wizards never releases any cards to support Modern, then Modern is on borrowed time through 2021 or maybe a bit later. That said, Wizards has released cards in Historic that are not even Pioneer legal. This suggests there is still long-term room for Modern or even other formats to take root on the platform. For instance, Historic might just be a better Pioneer in the long run. But if Wizards takes all that off the table and definitively says "Modern will never come to Arena: Pioneer will be that platform's nonrotating format" then we're toast.
I don't know if that's true. If Pioneer remains as awful as it is, Modern will still remain the premiere paper format. And once players realize how parasitic the "economy" on Arena is, I have seen several players that don't do it as a job simply walk away. And my personal experience mirrors that. I even spent a bunch of money when it was new for packs and built some fun decks. But the wildcard ecosystem is really, really awful. It also mercilessly punishes anyone who even thinks about switching decks.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Moving forward, I think Pioneer will be more like an Arena product and Modern/Legacy will be more like MODO products.
MTGO only formats aren't competitive sadly. They'll never be shown for a major tournament since MTGO doesn't have the aesthetics necessary.

Long term, if Modern doesn't hit Arena, it's dead as a format. As is Legacy, and Vintage, and Pioneer.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
(unless they have 7 mana to do it all in one go, so they stack the life/draw/landrop trigger on top of the sac trigger, and when the sac trigger resolves they get to escape Uro without me getting priority to exile it. Am I correct about this? Hope so... but in that case Uro just gets countered and then exiled^^)
It depends on how much is in their GY. If you have the resources you could Cling and even escape to eat their GY, getting it below 5 cards so that they can't Escape.
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Pioneer Masters
I'll say it before and say it again. Modern is a dead duck if it does not come to Arena. If Pioneer is the format of choice for Arena and Wizards never releases any cards to support Modern, then Modern is on borrowed time through 2021 or maybe a bit later. That said, Wizards has released cards in Historic that are not even Pioneer legal. This suggests there is still long-term room for Modern or even other formats to take root on the platform. For instance, Historic might just be a better Pioneer in the long run. But if Wizards takes all that off the table and definitively says "Modern will never come to Arena: Pioneer will be that platform's nonrotating format" then we're toast.
I suspect Historic is the non rotating format they want on Arena. It's less sustainable in paper because managing format legality sucks, but it's something they can completely tune without being constrained by old design. It's basically more like a curated Modern. It is also pretty much tailor made for the card distribution system on Arena in a way that something like Modern or Pioneer are not, and they can add cards on a case by case basis with essentially no market concerns.

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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
So what list would you use? Do you have one that would use T3feri? How would that change T3feri's effectiveness? Let me know when you get on that.
I'm building on the list you posted and with the knowledge that T3feri is a 3mana sorcery speed PW. I don't need to provide lists. Again, logical arguments don't require evidence written or otherwise. You also ignored his major mistake with Remand, but sure, I have to provide evidence for anything I'm saying but not you.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
I thought Twin had no bad matchups? And was an unbeatable, unstoppable machine? Because of cards like Force? And T3feri? Or is the fact that two current high-tier decks handily taking it to the cleaners (Gobbos and Bant)?
So we went from appeals to popularity, to straight up appeals to extremes. Good for you. I never made those claims, so feel free to revise your (counter-lol-)arguments, else you're just being an ass for the sake of being an ass. You still haven't presented anything resembling even a logical argument. Also, those 2 high-tier lists were facing a sloppily, untuned list, piloted by a player who doesn't know the archetype, but sure, this video is proof that Twin is bad. I'd link a certain meme here, but I won't fall to your level of argumentation.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Well you said it would be main decked, which is just silly. And out of the side, the roll of Dispel already handled protecting the combo quite well in the 1cmc slot. So the upgrade is to then protect against discard, but then forces you into 3 colors, which makes your manabase very painful or very unreliable (Seth noted a number of times the conflict of needing RR alongside enough Islands to make Mystic Sanctuary work, as well as frequently needing to shock himself down a considerable amount every single game).
Seth played 3(!) Mystic Sanctuaries, when Bant only plays 2. So, yeah, of course he had problems. Sanctuary isn't needed on T4, it's a late game engine and has to be treated as such. So again, why are you taking his opinion on a faulty list as some sort of proof? He put Clique instead of Borrower for %$#% sake...

The upside of Veil is shoring some very real weaknesses in its gameplan, while Remand is almost universally bad. Moreover, Goyfs would've helped with both the Goblin and the Jund match ups. Kiki is also extremely bad.

3 Color manabases can and have worked in a much faster format and Twin was the best deck in the format, why will it be any different now? Where's your proof that it will be worse?
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But again, to your comment about T3feri, Veil being a problem isn't a problem with Twin, it's a problem with Veil. Like, Veil should never have been printed in the first place, and should have been banned at every announcement since its printing. Its factor in Twin should be irrelevant.
Whether Veil should never have been printed or not is irrelevant. It exists. Therefore, it must be taken into consideration when discussing unbanning a combo piece. That's like saying the fact that Mox Opal existed, should stop us from unbanning artifact lands.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
But if you actually do want to show me why it's such a problem, go ahead and build a Temur list and record some matches against a gauntlet of top decks.
You got that backwards. We know how broken Veil is. We know Twin was successful in going 3 colors. You're the one complaining that Veil is irrelevant to the equation. So, go on, prove it, because we've got ample proof that Veil is a messed up card that detracts from interaction and is just perfect for combo decks.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
To me, it's much more than just the outcomes. Its watching the interactions, listening to both sides of commentary from both players, and hearing them reflect on their actions, lines of play, and relative strengths. Which is more than I can say about those who won't stop telling me how broken Veil is, but don't have anything to show for it.
Yeah, and that commentary is based on faulty lists and shoddy play. As such, their discussion should be taken with a huge grain of salt, rather than as proof that Twin is bad and should be unbanned.

Putting fingers in your ears and going "show me proof that Veil won't be used in Twin, else %$#% off" isn't the argument you think it is. Veil is played in almost every single combo deck. mostly because they splashed for it. That's how good Veil is. We've shown you how powerful Veil is, because the whole meta has been warped around it and is also the most played spell in the format. Yet, you keep asking us to show you more proof.

Not everything needs massive amounts of evidence and proof to be used as an argument, logic does that.
cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Understood. As long as we are on the same page that comments like "It's obviously broken because of card X, Y, or Z" is neither helpful nor constructive without any further such details. I was happy to have a broader discussion based on the observations, interactions, and commentary presented in the video. Instead, it's the same old tired and unsupported arguments. I'll happily take them into that thread if literally anyone wants to support their claims there.
That's ironic. You think you're the one that "[has] a broader discussion based on the observations, interactions, and commentary presented in the video."? You've been presented with arguments on both the list and the interactions in that video. Also, on how existing broken cards can be slotted in a Twin shell. You have only countered with "where's your evidence?!" and "go make videos". That's not a discussion, that's asking others to do your job for you. You also haven't argued against what me and a few others said.
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Re: Twin talk
Limited Twin talk is okay. Extensive discussions of testing, card choices, and lists is not, as it dominates the thread. Please take that elsewhere, such as viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16911.
I'd rather we banned it or at least put a moratorium on it. It's been rehashed endlessly with no end in sight.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

When does double masters release? And when do we think spoiler season will start?

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
You got that backwards. We know how broken Veil is. We know Twin was successful in going 3 colors. You're the one complaining that Veil is irrelevant to the equation. So, go on, prove it, because we've got ample proof that Veil is a messed up card that detracts from interaction and is just perfect for combo decks.
I'm going to ignore everything else in this diatribe to focus on this. Because frankly, do we?

Like I understand that from a design standpoint it's obnoxious and does far more than it ever should. So... what deck is abusing it to the point of making it broken? What real world example is showing us this is too good? Why isn't Snoop or Storm splashing for it? Why isn't Ad Nauseum doing better having shoved a few in? What is actually showing this card is busted? Is there anything? Or just this hypothetical Twin monster that everyone is talking about and no one seems to show? Combined with our hatred of the stupid design of the card?
Ed06288 wrote:
1 year ago
When does double masters release? And when do we think spoiler season will start?
I want to say early August, so probably soon? I offloaded one of my spare Mana Drains in anticipation of a possible reprint. Dunno what else I want to move, but I imagine prices of most reprinted stuff is going to tank HARD with nobody playing in paper.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Also, don't you guys forget that any of us aren't supposed to showcase Twin lists. We could, I could. I have playtested with Twin for more than 30 hours. I know it's power.
Feel free to post those lists and results in the testing thread. Because clearly you are the only one who knows the truth.

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Post by Ed06288 » 1 year ago

When playtesting traverse shadow against control, veil of sumner feels like my only way to win. 3 mana teferi is also really strong against me, bouncing my tarmogoyfs and stuff. I feel that if the opponent can have teferi, i should get to have veil of summer. maybe teferi and veil should only be banned together in a pair.

i thought mana drain was reprinted already recently.

and okay thanks, maybe i should do my pre-order at the end of july.

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