[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

Aazadan
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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Can someone explain how Punishing Fire is more oppressive than Lurrus + Seal of Fire?
It's not, but I'm not sure the comparison you want to be making is to a combo enabled by the first (and so far, only) card ever banned in Vintage due to power level.

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Post by pierreb » 9 months ago

TBH, given the way companion works, the only way to handle it is to ban it. Would not make sense to restrict it, would it?

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Can someone explain how Punishing Fire is more oppressive than Lurrus + Seal of Fire?
It's not, but I'm not sure the comparison you want to be making is to a combo enabled by the first (and so far, only) card ever banned in Vintage due to power level.
Unless there's something other than looping it with Grove of the Burnwillows, is there something I'm missing? Both loop a burn spell turn after turn.

Not that I'm advocating it be unbanned (or saying Lurrus should be banned); Punishing Fire is just another card I think is silly for it to remain banned and would not want a precious unban slot wasted on such a meaningless card. It's more to illustrate totally irrational fears about cards banned from a meta and format that simply hasn't existed for years. And that many things considered "broken" in the early years of Modern are laughably outclassed by power levels of 2019/2020+

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

Unless there's something other than looping it with Grove of the Burnwillows, is there something I'm missing? Both loop a burn spell turn after turn.
No, that's the interaction. The difference being, looping Punishing Fire with Lurrus is pretty much the floor on broken things it can do, where as Punishing Fire with Grove of the Burnwillows is the ceiling on the "broken" things it does. A similar result isn't really comparable when one is the best case use of a card and the other is the worst case use of it. There's also a small matter of mana efficiency as well, each Punishing Fire is 3 mana while each Seal is 1 mana.
TBH, given the way companion works, the only way to handle it is to ban it. Would not make sense to restrict it, would it?
Which plays into banning it for power level as they designed an entire category of cards that are essentially immune to restrictions.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
I disagree with alsmost ALL of those tbh.

Punishing Fire would still push small creatures out of the format.
Preordain? I guess, why not.
Green Sun's Zenith? Devoted Devastation and Elves have tons of tutors as it is. And having the option of Dryad-ramp is still busted.
Bridge from Below? Would indeed be interesting to see how CrabVine decks would fare with that, we never saw non-hogaak bridge decks.
Blazing Shoal? How are consistent T2 kills good for the format?
Mycosynth Lattice? I think Baby-Karn should have been banned instead of that, but both in the format would still be too dumb. Karn is one of the best cards in modern as it is.
Second Sunrise? The reason for banning that card wasn't its power, but the endless, boring F6-games it created. That hasen't changed.
Umezawa's Jitte? See Punishing Fire, only 10 times worse.
Splinter Twin is controversial, I won't comment on that for the sake of my mental health.

Mystic Sanctuary compares to NONE of those cards. Not even close. You can find it annoying and badly designed, but it doesn't hold a candle to them.
Punishing Fire: What small creatures are in the format? mtgtop8 shows of the top 8 decks in percentage played in the past 2 weeks, the possible creatures are Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Monastery Swiftspear, Ice-Fang Coatl, Snapcaster Mage, Arbor Elf, Magus of the Moon, Seasoned Pyromancer, Matter Reshaper, Bloodbraid Elf, Narcomoeba, Silversmote Ghoul, and every single Goblin in that deck. Most of these could care less about Punishing Fire. Punishing Fire is a card that like Mystic Sanctuary, is good near the end game, as we know 1R for 2 damage anywhere is too slow to have an effect in Modern.
Preordain: I've made my arguments for it before. The very worse thing it could do imo is to make people believe that it's the problem in some deck after some insane printing when most players know it's actually not. The best thing for Preordain would be to unban it by itself so that it wouldn't get the blame for something else.
Green Sun's Zenith: There's already plenty of tutors. That's the point. Each of those tutors has a place in different decks or occasionally the same deck. I guarantee you that no deck is going to play Chord, Finale, AND GSZ all in the same deck. That's way too clunky and even decks like GB Yawgmoth that utilize Chord side out some number of Chords in quicker matchups. I go down as much as to 1 Chord vs. quick decks because having 2 Chord in hand usually means you lose. I've voiced why I don't think that GSZ into Dryad Arbor is impressive, so I'll leave it at that.
Bridge from Below: We did see non Hogaak decks with Bridge. Gerry Thompson played it at a Pro Tour (or whatever name it is for the 4 different tournaments that are essentially the Pro Tour). I played it myself at 3 PTQs, so I have an idea about the deck. It was pretty solid and did well against completely unprepared opponents, but even those unprepared opponents who were on Humans at the time had a very positive matchup vs. the deck. With recent power creep, Bridge would guaranteed do nothing except maybe get some Tier 2 Crabvine players to try to push it to Tier 1.
Blazing Shoal: Can contribute to turn 2 kills, along with the Infect player also having a Progenitus in hand. Infect now can kill with any two +4/+4 spells (or 6/4 creature with a +4/+4) and Mutagenic Growth. Each of these spells is good, even by themselves if they do not have a turn 2 kill. But Progenitus in hand is terrible, especially when you don't have Ponder to try to sculpt that situation. Blazing Shoal is in the same category as Bridge - why, but also why not?
Mycosynth Lattice: Is a ban that was justified in a new way imo. While I didn't mind the ban, I can see how others believe that it's not fair. Karn, the Great Creator deserves to see play in up to 5 Modern decks, instead of the only 1 that it sees now.
Umezawa's Jitte: I personally don't think this is fine. I've played this card a bunch in several formats. But I am willing to try it and I could certainly be incorrect here. If it is bad for Modern, like I presume it will be, then WotC can just reban a card.
Splinter Twin: This or Pod would be the 2 unbans that most likely would have a strong influence in my opinion. They also would attract the most players IMO. I think they're both super strong cards that have been somewhat outclassed by a lot of what's going on right now. I think both are fine. But I also understand someone not wanting to comment here, which is smart. People either hate it or love it - there's no in between, although I like to think that I am between.

Mostly I just wanted to comment about Bridge from Below. I've played it before in Modern in funky Tier 3 decks for fun at FNM just to play the card. But I also played it in 3 PTQs. The results are this ->
Spoiler
Show
First PTQ - I do well vs. some decks, but run into Humans 3 rounds in a row. I outdraw the first guy and barely win 2-1. I am able to ID into the top 8 against the next guy. In the first round of the PTQ, I lost to Humans 1-2. The first 2 games were close, but he played 2 Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant in the next, followed up by some other cards and it was NOT close.
Second PTQ - I ran into some variance, but still had some very good draws from rounds 2-5. In Round 6, my Jeskai opponent took probably 80% of the playing time and would not scoop to me even though I literally needed 1 more turn to win. I showed him what I had, but he refused to scoop, so we went 1-1-1 with him at 1 life and me with Collective Brutality in hand and 1 mana short of casting it.
Third PTQ - I went 2-5 and took a violent thrashing. My average hand size was probably 4.5 this tournament and rarely a good 4-5 cards. I saw what the poor part of variance can do for you with this deck, as compared with my first 2 PTQs where I had pretty good variance.
10-8-2 overall. I actually had a better record with Crabvine in more matches played AFTER Bridge from Below was banned, mostly because after the Hogaak and Looting ban, people took out more graveyard hate cards.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

I have put together a few Pioneer decks. The original aim was to put a couple of loan decks- I went for mono g ramp, mono b aggro, mono u tempo, and mono r. I then put together brews I wanted to play, UW enchantment control, a doom foretold grindy bw deck, and a uw spirit heavy hate bear brew. I have sold mono g already, and am thinking of dumping mono b, as it is full of sellable cards. I don't need loan decks to prop the format up, and it seems stupid to do so when it may die easily. I know a couple of people into it, but by and large most I know are relatively new players just tinkering with the idea. It is not a spike format, but it has spike decks at the top.
The contrast with early modern days is stark. Back then I had two loan tron decks, which became three, affinity, soul sisters, d n t, a proto infect, burn etc. There was a genuine excitement and every deck I got for loan was full of cards that I felt would appreciate in value(most did) and people wanted to play. I just don't see that anywhere now outside of niche formats. Standard, Pioneer, and Modern just generate upset players in ever greater numbers, sick.of the churn, sick of the pushed cards and zero answers. Historic might be popular but as a paper format I can't see it working.
I can't see Modern and Pioneer surviving. Modern is more vulnerable, but wotc's neglect give it a chink of light at the end of the tunnel.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Pioneer seems unplayably bad right now. Top decks are all combos that are difficult or impossible to interact with: Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod. Seems miserable. Probably why online events are apparently not even firing, because nobody wants to play that format. I don't have any stake in Pioneer, but many streamers and others who play it frequently seemed shocked and insulted by the B&R update.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Pioneer seems unplayably bad right now. Top decks are all combos that are difficult or impossible to interact with: Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod. Seems miserable. Probably why online events are apparently not even firing, because nobody wants to play that format. I don't have any stake in Pioneer, but many streamers and others who play it frequently seemed shocked and insulted by the B&R update.
Well, it's probably because Pioneer doesn't have strong enough control to keep combo in line more than that those specific combos are particularly OP. Such an issue won't be fixed with bans, but by printing a critical mass of good answers, sweepers and card advantage into the format that are good for control on similar power levels to the best combo stuff in the format, which would probably require something along the lines of a Pioneer Horizons, given the preferred power levels of control cards in Standard these days. Without such, they'd probably just wind up with an endless parade of incredible numbers of combo related bans before the remainder is properly checked by control. It seems to me the format had issues from the start related to issues revolving around control vs. combo quality, even worse than Modern, and trying to address the problem with bans would just end up with a massive banlist that makes Wizards look stupid.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Pioneer seems unplayably bad right now. Top decks are all combos that are difficult or impossible to interact with: Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod. Seems miserable. Probably why online events are apparently not even firing, because nobody wants to play that format. I don't have any stake in Pioneer, but many streamers and others who play it frequently seemed shocked and insulted by the B&R update.
Well, it's probably because Pioneer doesn't have strong enough control to keep combo in line more than that those specific combos are particularly OP. Such an issue won't be fixed with bans, but by printing a critical mass of good answers, sweepers and card advantage into the format that are good for control on similar power levels to the best combo stuff in the format, which would probably require something along the lines of a Pioneer Horizons, given the preferred power levels of control cards in Standard these days. Without such, they'd probably just wind up with an endless parade of incredible numbers of combo related bans before the remainder is properly checked by control. It seems to me the format had issues from the start related to issues revolving around control vs. combo quality, even worse than Modern, and trying to address the problem with bans would just end up with a massive banlist that makes Wizards look stupid.
If their Pioneer Masters is anywhere near what Modern Horizons is, I think many people would be very horrified. I personally like MH and consider it a success, despite several busted cards coming out of it, but from what I hear, many people consider it a failure.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
If their Pioneer Masters is anywhere near what Modern Horizons is, I think many people would be very horrified. I personally like MH and consider it a success, despite several busted cards coming out of it, but from what I hear, many people consider it a failure.
It turned Modern into a rotating format. In the sense that it created decks from nothing, made a bunch of decks obsolete, then caused a bunch of decks to be banned. One could call it a success because it injected so many cards and so heavily influenced the format, in addition to selling like hotcakes. One could also call it a failure because so much pain and misery and destruction have come to us as a direct result of MH. Though, it certainly didn't help to have a cascading effect of WAR --> ELD --> THB --> IKO breaking things back to back to back to back either. God help us from whatever the F is in Return to Return to Zendikar. Because last time, we got Eldrazi Winter.

Either way, from the looks of it Pioneer is a hot mess express. It's all the combo and aggro nonsense from Modern, but with none of the answers. Add to that the fact that WOTC seems to have abandoned it entirely (as have players) it's not surprising to see them let it rot.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

@cfusionpm - MH did change a lot in Modern. Some look at it as too much. I feel for that type of set, it was maybe just at the high end of how much change I wanted in Modern. I definitely preferred it to not a single new card being added to Modern. I know there's some in between and cards like Hogaak and Urza were mistakes. Some cards were definitely cool to see, stuff like Unearth added to Modern's inventory. Many people thought Containment Priest or other cool stuff was going to be in and the set actually didn't have that much of that. I think it's cool to see what cards can be pushed into that set and be fine in Modern (I still think Leovold, Emissary of Trest would be fine).

WAR gave the planeswalkers, ELD gave Oko and OUaT, THB bought Uro, and IKO was the biggest mistake with the companions. But those are Standard sets. I expect much of a less power rating from Standard sets. But for a set like how MH was supposed to be (at least in my mind), I expect a few things to change in Modern. No, I don't expect Hogaak to be a Tier 0 deck - that was a blatant mistake, which I'll even admit that I didn't see it as super powerful right away. But when I did realize it from others, I picked them up at the high price of $30+ each because I knew within a few tournaments, I'd have all that money back and more.

I don't know what to expect from RTRT Zendikar. I've heard some people state that the power level will definitely be toned down. I've heard some say it may break stuff again because it was made years ago. I've seen the spoiler of 2 cards and they appear pretty pushed. Just my own personal 2 cents, but I would love to see a Return to Lorwyn, even if Faeries were slightly busted again, lol.

With Pioneer, I never really liked the format much. But I can understand those who do, even if I personally find a lot of arguments faulty IMO. The way that WotC has handled the format recently has been atrocious and now no one can say it's a solid format anymore. I don't really want to say, "I told you so." I actually wouldn't mind if Pioneer was a good format and I actually believe that it was close to being as good as Standard when it came out, despite many mistakes made in cards being prebanned and then others being banned immediately. That's not bad for a new format IMO. Whenever I say that I don't like Pioneer, it's not me hoping that it fails. I hope it succeeds as long as it's a format that I personally enjoy. h0lydiva had a point when she said that Ramp is essentially doing Tron things in Pioneer, so there's no escaping that there. The format was Ramp and now just Combo. It's pretty horrid. I guess those formats cannot support having 2 different mana dudes (8 elves) and pure combo cards - they need some answers. I said before that Drown in the Loch was an amazing card creation. Why can't WotC come up with more like that?

*I will also state where a lot of my own bias comes from. A lot of my friends don't actually like Modern to change that much. That's because many of them play once a week. I play a LOT of Magic - well, I used to before the quarantine. Formats get stale for me quicker than the average player and for a true Grinder or Pro that plays even more than I do, it can get much more stale even quicker. I can't do Affinity/Tron/Jund/Twin/Burn for more than 1 year. It really gets stale. I felt it during GBx vs. URx. I'm not going to compare it to nonsense that has happened now, but I'll just say that it gets boring for players who play as often as I do → probably an average of 3-5 times a week and even 6 for some extended months when my family was abroad and I was by myself.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
The format was Ramp and now just Combo. It's pretty horrid.
The quintesential head-scratching WOTC move though, is to flash-ban Saheeli Cat, but then openly and brazenly tell us with a straight face that Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod are all fine. Like... I don't even care about Pioneer, but I feel like either ban those decks like they did to Saheeli, or unban Saheeli. It makes absolutely no sense how they aggressively managed the format to a T, and then literally left it out to rot. It's like they're trying to get people to lose interest in it so they can take your money for packs and Historic events on Arena.

It's not about Pioneer being horrid, it's about WHY it's horrid. It's about micromanaging it week by week, and then dusting your hands off and walking away after a SINGLE set creates 3 obnoxious decks that make up about half the format.

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Post by blkdemonight » 9 months ago

I thought holydiva stopped playing magic, so I'm surprised a out the streaming bit. Anyway I remember once Historic had a week that had a temporary ban list that was hefty, including 3 mana Heliod. It's clear Wizards philosophy of only designing threats and consistency while not printing appropriate answers and archetypes to counteract each other (even if certain ones are unpopular) play into everything destroying Pioneer, Standard and Modern in extension .

Wizards allows land ramp and untapping to exist but not ways to deal with lands or the enablers. Designing piss poor answers that worry about board CA when the power of ramp is either virtual or zones not hit easily like the stack, hands, library or graveyard unless iit's a planeswalker problem. Or narrow combo disablers that do a better job of punishing the caster.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

AvalonAurora wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Pioneer seems unplayably bad right now. Top decks are all combos that are difficult or impossible to interact with: Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod. Seems miserable. Probably why online events are apparently not even firing, because nobody wants to play that format. I don't have any stake in Pioneer, but many streamers and others who play it frequently seemed shocked and insulted by the B&R update.
Well, it's probably because Pioneer doesn't have strong enough control to keep combo in line more than that those specific combos are particularly OP. Such an issue won't be fixed with bans, but by printing a critical mass of good answers, sweepers and card advantage into the format that are good for control on similar power levels to the best combo stuff in the format, which would probably require something along the lines of a Pioneer Horizons, given the preferred power levels of control cards in Standard these days. Without such, they'd probably just wind up with an endless parade of incredible numbers of combo related bans before the remainder is properly checked by control. It seems to me the format had issues from the start related to issues revolving around control vs. combo quality, even worse than Modern, and trying to address the problem with bans would just end up with a massive banlist that makes Wizards look stupid.
This is what happens to Modern as well, and can be traced back to the general lack of answers since m10. Answers are now efficient by 2001 standards, not by 2020 standards.
A suitable "answer" to Uro is swords to plowshares, and that is the best removal printed, and I would still rather be the Uro guy than the Swords guy. The thought of thing that makes Uro unattractive is Humility, which is lost to Modern, let alone Pioneer.

It is the same story with walkers- P Needle, Revoker and Spyglass to fight say, Oko (RIP for Modern) or Jace? Hmmm, I will pass.

The more the game tends towards "everybody gets to play" the more it tends to "I win with A + B you can do nothing about even if you see it coming". The only real answer to this is answer cards, and that includes prison cards like aforementioned Humility style cards. Counterspells cannot do it alone.

The answer to Tron or scapeshift and other ramp is to BLOW UP LANDS (and those games are actually remarkably involving as one side eeks out a winning position and land choice when fetching and timing of the fetch becomes very skill intensive). But with that gone from the game, ramp decks will be unchecked in Pioneer onwards.

The answer to A + B combos is to remove them from their deck, or tax the combo, or prevent it being cast.
They *******FINALLY******* got the sadistic sacrament/lost legacy card right with Necromentia, but it has taken years. Lost legacy sucked by being restricted to non artifacts (significant in legacy where Grindstone and Helm are part of different A+B combos), the splash versions in U and R suffered by being two colours. If Necromentia were uncounterable (slaughter games costs 4 and is) it might have a chance of significance across a few formats, although Veil exists of course. Ritual into Necromentia might be of more significance in Legacy but at least the card shows they are thinking of answers.
Another A + B answer is to Meddling Mage/Nevermore. Sadly Pioneer's Nevermore is Gideon's [email protected] a whopping 4cc, but it is better in its format than Modern's Nevermore, which is, err Nevermore, which at 3 with no upside in a much faster format is unplayable.

Sadly, I think Pioneer, Modern and eventually Legacy will succumb to their EDH vision of the game.

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
AvalonAurora wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Pioneer seems unplayably bad right now. Top decks are all combos that are difficult or impossible to interact with: Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod. Seems miserable. Probably why online events are apparently not even firing, because nobody wants to play that format. I don't have any stake in Pioneer, but many streamers and others who play it frequently seemed shocked and insulted by the B&R update.
Well, it's probably because Pioneer doesn't have strong enough control to keep combo in line more than that those specific combos are particularly OP. Such an issue won't be fixed with bans, but by printing a critical mass of good answers, sweepers and card advantage into the format that are good for control on similar power levels to the best combo stuff in the format, which would probably require something along the lines of a Pioneer Horizons, given the preferred power levels of control cards in Standard these days. Without such, they'd probably just wind up with an endless parade of incredible numbers of combo related bans before the remainder is properly checked by control. It seems to me the format had issues from the start related to issues revolving around control vs. combo quality, even worse than Modern, and trying to address the problem with bans would just end up with a massive banlist that makes Wizards look stupid.
This is what happens to Modern as well, and can be traced back to the general lack of answers since m10. Answers are now efficient by 2001 standards, not by 2020 standards.
A suitable "answer" to Uro is swords to plowshares, and that is the best removal printed, and I would still rather be the Uro guy than the Swords guy. The thought of thing that makes Uro unattractive is Humility, which is lost to Modern, let alone Pioneer.

It is the same story with walkers- P Needle, Revoker and Spyglass to fight say, Oko (RIP for Modern) or Jace? Hmmm, I will pass.

The more the game tends towards "everybody gets to play" the more it tends to "I win with A + B you can do nothing about even if you see it coming". The only real answer to this is answer cards, and that includes prison cards like aforementioned Humility style cards. Counterspells cannot do it alone.

The answer to Tron or scapeshift and other ramp is to BLOW UP LANDS (and those games are actually remarkably involving as one side eeks out a winning position and land choice when fetching and timing of the fetch becomes very skill intensive). But with that gone from the game, ramp decks will be unchecked in Pioneer onwards.

The answer to A + B combos is to remove them from their deck, or tax the combo, or prevent it being cast.
They *******FINALLY******* got the sadistic sacrament/lost legacy card right with Necromentia, but it has taken years. Lost legacy sucked by being restricted to non artifacts (significant in legacy where Grindstone and Helm are part of different A+B combos), the splash versions in U and R suffered by being two colours. If Necromentia were uncounterable (slaughter games costs 4 and is) it might have a chance of significance across a few formats, although Veil exists of course. Ritual into Necromentia might be of more significance in Legacy but at least the card shows they are thinking of answers.
Another A + B answer is to Meddling Mage/Nevermore. Sadly Pioneer's Nevermore is Gideon's [email protected] a whopping 4cc, but it is better in its format than Modern's Nevermore, which is, err Nevermore, which at 3 with no upside in a much faster format is unplayable.

Sadly, I think Pioneer, Modern and eventually Legacy will succumb to their EDH vision of the game.
I actually think answers in modern are getting there. Path is already a great answer to Uro, it's more appropriate than Swords, UW control with Swords would frankly be completely absurd in modern. Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt, Fatal Push, and Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize are a capable 1cmc Baseline. 2cmc frequently is allied/enemy-color-specific: Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, Drown in the Loch, Dovin's Veto, Dreadbore, etc. THis gives different color combinations identity. Colorless has Dismember (which in my opinion is a real issue because decks like scales, ETron and GTron shouldn't have access to that kind of removal).

I used to wish for Counterspell in modern, and they kept printing around it: when I started there was Mana Leak and Logic Knot, then Drown in the Loch, Dovin's Veto, Disdainful Stroke, etc etc. I think that's one core principle when designing cards for the younger constructed formats: Legacy/Vintage have pure, no-nonsense, no-downside answers, and modern has 3 variations of those answers with various restrictions, which is appropriate imo, and also kind of cool. It makes deck-building really interesting^^.

I'll use Grixis Control to illustrate this: When the deck was "invented" (or reconfigured) in modern by Patrick Chapin in 2015 with the printing of Kolaghan's Command, removal spells where 4x Lightning Bolt, 4x Terminate, and that was it. My list today has 0 Terminates, and instead 4 Drown in the Loch, 2 Fatal Push, and 2 Cling to Dust. Cling to Dust, btw, being the best answer for Uro, Kroxa and a million other things you could ever hope for. Maindecking Cling has been (I know this will sound a bit dumb and overblown) nothing short of revolutionary for me. The dynamics in many matchups completely change in our favour.

Veil of Summer negates a good part of this pool of answers, and alas, is easy enough to run in any green deck or in some cases, even splash for (or in the case of Ad Nauseam, just have 5c lands in the first place). But nevertheless, I do feel like answers have kind of kept up with threats. They usually lagg behind by a set or two, but right now, I don't really feel disadvantaged playing a control strategy.

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Post by The Fluff » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
The format was Ramp and now just Combo. It's pretty horrid.
The quintesential head-scratching WOTC move though, is to flash-ban Saheeli Cat, but then openly and brazenly tell us with a straight face that Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod are all fine. Like...
perhaps they really just don't like the Saheeli Cat and Splinter Twin type of decks..
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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

Path is terrible in most decks. By the time you Path an Uro, you are toast if you are playing white creature, they have already out valued you. When people talk up Path, they invariably mean in a UW control deck, where it is better. In any creature, hatebear, tempo deck it is the kiss of death to Path early. Creature heavy white decks need an answer to Uro, and path is not it.
Answers are a decade behind threats, not a set or two. Generally those people who think answers are good and are matched by threats are those bought up on more modern Mtg. If you have been exposed to stuff like energy standard, through to today, you become used to watered down answers and accept plonk it down and let the game run away threats. If you played in the 90s or early noughties you are used to a very different balance. Uro compared to a late nineties threat is like making a 0cc hymn to tourach and comparing it to coercion....

Cling is an excellent card, but in no way makes up for the diet of Oko, Uro et al these past two years.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
The format was Ramp and now just Combo. It's pretty horrid.
The quintesential head-scratching WOTC move though, is to flash-ban Saheeli Cat, but then openly and brazenly tell us with a straight face that Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod are all fine. Like...
perhaps they really just don't like the Saheeli Cat and Splinter Twin type of decks..
So why allow Inverter, Lotus Breach, and Heliod to remain untouched in Pioneer?

That's basically two 2-card combo decks that deal with triggered/activated abilities that are difficult or impossible to interact with, and a Storm deck whose main engine has Hexproof. If WOTC is trying to make a point, it is completely lost on me.

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
Creature heavy white decks need an answer to Uro, and path is not it.
Answers are a decade behind threats, not a set or two. Generally those people who think answers are good and are matched by threats are those bought up on more modern Mtg. If you have been exposed to stuff like energy standard, through to today, you become used to watered down answers and accept plonk it down and let the game run away threats. If you played in the 90s or early noughties you are used to a very different balance. Uro compared to a late nineties threat is like making a 0cc hymn to tourach and comparing it to coercion....

Cling is an excellent card, but in no way makes up for the diet of Oko, Uro et al these past two years.
I agree that threats have been pushed absurdly in recent history. (I've never played standard so I can't speak to that point^^). But I don't necessarily think printing an extremely powerful answer that lines up fairly against the most pushed threats is a healthy way to go forward. If UW Control can exile a mana dork and an Ulamog with the same card, without giving something relevant back, that's just not sustainable in modern imo.

White creature decks needing an answer for Uro is a pretty specific thing to want in a new card. Between Path to Exile and Rest in Peace, aren't there some workable options? It's a real pity Containment Priest doesn't hit Uro. It should have read "Whenever a non-token- creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast from a player's hand, exile it instead."

An alternative would be a Unified Will type of card, "Exile target creature if you control more creatures than it's controller.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Saw this pop up on my feed today. Only about halfway through Match 2, but so far it's playing out pretty much exactly like I expected. Including all the "Huh, I thought this would be way better, but instead it creates this weird internal tension. Other decks these days are so much more powerful than they used to be..." My personal favorite quote is of Richard "All those great new cards Twin gets.... Everyone else gets them too." :laugh:


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Post by AvalonAurora » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
An alternative would be a Unified Will type of card, "Exile target creature if you control more creatures than it's controller.
I think White could do with something like a 2 cmc version of swords to plowshares. Might not deal with Uro well, but it would be good in some situations and decks they might prefer to avoid path to not give the opponent lands. Possibly with the opponent lifegain based on CMC rather than power, so it wouldn't have a drawback against many tokens and other 0 cmc stuff.

Of course, white isn't the only color that could use more answers in Modern.

Mono-red could use some more efficient removal for large and/or recursive creatures, and a wider variety of exile based artifact removal options.

Blue of course could use counterspell and force spike, but they could also use a 2 cmc exile based removal, possibly based on a shapeshifting theme along the lines of Reality Shift or Curse of the Swine, but not being virtual card draw for the opponent like Reality Shift, and not being as high mana cost as swine winds up, possibly something like giving the opponent a 2/4 flying defender token, so the opponent gets something tough and potentially useful, but not a way to continue attacking you, although even just something more like a swine token 2/2 would be better than what reality shift effectively does.

Both red and blue could use some better grave hate, perhaps red as something attached to some lower cmc burn spells, hinting at effectively lighting the opponent's graveyard (or all graveyards) on fire, and blue some lower cmc options to shuffle graveyards into libraries or push them onto the bottom of them or something with enough side benefits to justify using them in mono-blue or mono-red of certain kinds of decks over relic of progenitus and the like.

Now that black is allowed to do stuff about enchantments, it could use some modern viable things that do so. It could probably also use some cheaper instant speed creature exile options of some sort, with some kind of black-style appropriate drawback.

All the colors could use a wider variety of hatebear type cards although especially white, that are modern viable and targeted at modern threats and combos, and similar for things like enchantments and/or new colored artifacts in the form of hate and/or prison and/or taxing type stuff.

Boros, Selesnya, and Gruul color pairs could use some catching up in generic answers and removal quality to the likes of Golgari and Orzhov, with their own stylistic tweaks (such as perhaps Selesnya sending things back to the library in some form rather than exiling, or Gruul using damage for the creature side of things).

More stack interaction for colors besides blue would also be nice, not necessarily in the form of counterspells, or anti-counterspells (like the probably should be banned Veil of Summer), but perhaps things like Shadow of Doubt, a perhaps instant speed variant on Tainted Remedy type effect, or things like Bind that focus on abilities rather than spells but with a bonus to make up for the card advantage issues involved in that sort of thing, or things like Wild Ricochet and Reroute. Might be good to mix up the effects into modal spells for the more narrow ones.

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Saw this pop up on my feed today. Only about halfway through Match 2, but so far it's playing out pretty much exactly like I expected. Including all the "Huh, I thought this would be way better, but instead it creates this weird internal tension. Other decks these days are so much more powerful than they used to be..." My personal favorite quote is of Richard "All those great new cards Twin gets.... Everyone else gets them too." :laugh:

I'm gonna reply to your youtube comment here:
"Discard is pretty good against Twin"

An underrated statement that thousands of players either totally forgot about or pretend isn't backbreaking lol.
And yet people like you keep "forgetting" that Twin was a 50-50 match up against Jund -its alleged worst matchup. So that discard wasn't actually THAT backbreaking. We've been here countless times, you keep "forgetting" the actual match up statistics. It's time to give up this silly angle. Twin had pretty much an even win% across the board, now it may be different especially with control being as good as it is, but that doesn't mean you have to keep misrepresenting its match up against Jund.

As a side note, I think Temur Twin with Veil would be much more absurd than Jeskai Twin for T3feri. I'll comment more when I finish watching the vid.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Saw this pop up on my feed today. Only about halfway through Match 2, but so far it's playing out pretty much exactly like I expected. Including all the "Huh, I thought this would be way better, but instead it creates this weird internal tension. Other decks these days are so much more powerful than they used to be..." My personal favorite quote is of Richard "All those great new cards Twin gets.... Everyone else gets them too." :laugh:

I'm gonna reply to your youtube comment here:
"Discard is pretty good against Twin"

An underrated statement that thousands of players either totally forgot about or pretend isn't backbreaking lol.
And yet people like you keep "forgetting" that Twin was a 50-50 match up against Jund -its alleged worst matchup. So that discard wasn't actually THAT backbreaking. We've been here countless times, you keep "forgetting" the actual match up statistics. It's time to give up this silly angle. Twin had pretty much an even win% across the board, now it may be different especially with control being as good as it is, but that doesn't mean you have to keep misrepresenting its match up against Jund.

As a side note, I think Temur Twin with Veil would be much more absurd than Jeskai Twin for T3feri. I'll comment more when I finish watching the vid.
2020 is not 2015. And this video handily shows that.

Feel free to record your own matches and post them if you like. But I'm getting sick and tired of people saying things are "too good" based on "instinct." Especially when nearly every single one of these "instincts" have been wrong previously (AV, Jace, SFM, etc).

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Its the twin discussion again. Can one mod ban it please?
This kind of discussion actively hurts the thread. Please, step in.
Yeah, why have meaningful discussions about actual gameplay examples when we can just accept a baseless theorycraft that Twin is far too broken and dominant to ever be freed again? Because T3feri! And Force! And Veil!

I agree. I don't want to have to talk about it either. But I would also love to see all this mystery data you claim to have about it being nutso broken that you refuse to provide at every opportunity.
Last edited by Ulka 9 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Infraction for Trolling

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
Creature heavy white decks need an answer to Uro, and path is not it.
Answers are a decade behind threats, not a set or two. Generally those people who think answers are good and are matched by threats are those bought up on more modern Mtg. If you have been exposed to stuff like energy standard, through to today, you become used to watered down answers and accept plonk it down and let the game run away threats. If you played in the 90s or early noughties you are used to a very different balance. Uro compared to a late nineties threat is like making a 0cc hymn to tourach and comparing it to coercion....

Cling is an excellent card, but in no way makes up for the diet of Oko, Uro et al these past two years.
I agree that threats have been pushed absurdly in recent history. (I've never played standard so I can't speak to that point^^). But I don't necessarily think printing an extremely powerful answer that lines up fairly against the most pushed threats is a healthy way to go forward. If UW Control can exile a mana dork and an Ulamog with the same card, without giving something relevant back, that's just not sustainable in modern imo.

White creature decks needing an answer for Uro is a pretty specific thing to want in a new card. Between Path to Exile and Rest in Peace, aren't there some workable options? It's a real pity Containment Priest doesn't hit Uro. It should have read "Whenever a non-token- creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast from a player's hand, exile it instead."

An alternative would be a Unified Will type of card, "Exile target creature if you control more creatures than it's controller.
White needs something to stop Uro being cast. After it has been cast it has too much value. It is not, I think you would agree, absurdly powerful to print the following:
"WW enchantment when [] comes into play name a creature card. That card cannot be played from the hand or graveyard. Scry 2". I mean it is basically a nevermore, but one less and way more restricted, with a scry as value in case the opponent never draws the card you name. Designs at 2 mana that prevent Uro being cast would not ruin the game, they would make it more fair. Maybe that would be too powerful for you- there are a few people, normally commander players, who think anything that should kill their dude such as countering , discarding or killing before it got a chance to attack is just unfair. I am not saying anyone here is one of them, but they do exist and they are a cancer on the game, because they are the people Uro et al are made for. Fortunately, I have the solution- they can ***** off and play another game....)

I must say, the idea of pathing a mana dork is the oddest thing I have heard for a while, but that aside, but I will take you up on the idea that a single card should not deal with both Ulamog and a mana dork without giving something back (although I would argue life is perfectly fine to give back). White already has Porphyr nodes and a 1cc snow enchantment that do that, and at 3cc the obligatory O ring effects. Scrabbling around referring to rest in peace and Uro is really clutching at straws for my money- a bit like saying Stony silence can deal with Jitte so Jitte would be fine (although it might be, I am using it as an example, you get the drift). Rip is a board card, unless you happen to be playing enchantment prison. The first rule of discussing Path, for me, is that nobody is allowed to mention UW control. Then we can discuss how good it is. White is supposed to be the small creature colour, since they took away its mass kill, land destruction, etc., and UW control, whilst beloved of many including myself, is not the prism though which Path should be viewed.


Removing Uro after it has done its thing is not ever going to match it, it must be preemptive. Again, the focus on UW control in relation to path is something I see time and again. Path is made better in UW control because of the early counterspells, meaning you do not need to path till late. UW also cares a bit less about ramping its opponents than a WW would. The thought of pathing uro with a trigger on the stack does not make me weak with at he knees with a "I got you Uro player, have another land", more like "I am pathing this thing and am dead in 3 turns, probably"

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