[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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cfusionpm
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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
We all knew how broken it is.
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
I mean, I am not suggesting it as definite
:thinking:
Warning for trolling.
-ktkenshinx-

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
We all knew how broken it is.
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
I mean, I am not suggesting it as definite
:thinking:
You took two different quotes from a post, glued them together and then?
If you read the post again, you will understand that the first part is for arcum's astrolabe and the second one is for the fact that I am not suggesting that the fact that modern might devolve into two ships passing in the night is as definite as @ktkenshinx is implying.
Two totally different things, from two totally different parts of a post.
The grander point is that you, numerous times, state things as definite facts. Including times when you have neither the data nor evidence to support it.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
For this reason, I think it's better for me to ignore the rest messages of you and for the sake of my posts, totally ignore your account.
Wouldn't be the first time!

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Post by blkdemonight » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
pierreb wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Banning Astrolabe does what? Destroy the best interactive decks? ...
I'd much rather have interactive Snow piles punishing the linear degenerate decks then simply let them run rampant.
I'm kinda tired of reading 'interactive' when you simply mean 'run counterspells'. The only interactive bits in snow is archmage charm, cryptic command, mana leak and the like. Oh yeah, I forgot: veil, blood moon and anger of the gods.

Meh. If you want control decks to be tier 1 and be the top decks, fine. But stop saying they are interactive and other decks are not. They are a form of control.

There are interactive decks. Jund, UW, ... even GDS and humans have interactive cards. We know what the problem is with interaction in modern: the answer cards are too weak. Modern is a legacy with weaker threats but vastly weaker answers, like pyroblast, swords to plowshares and FoW (among others).

Beside, Uro (possibly snow) decks would continue to exists, they just would not be 4 colors and as painless and consistent.
Sadly, many members of this thread seem to be confusing the word interaction. For some weird reason, for some thread members, interaction==counterspells and action on the stack. Humans is a kind of an interactive deck and blocks inside a combat are interaction. Jund is a super interactive deck, hand disruption is interaction. I think it has to do more with the fact that the blue players think that they are the only and true interactive mages, a thing which obviously is horrendous to think.
PS: I am not saying every blue mage thinks of that, but I have heard this opinion around and it seems like a mess to me.
I'm of the opinion the word interaction should be used to simply mean to care about other cards. Positive interaction should be called synergy (delve spell taking advantage of one's own spells and fetches hitting the yard) while negative interaction should be called disruption (such as how susceptible cards are to removal or counter magic) .

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

I realize that such articles are very polarizing, depending on what we believe, but here's one from Jess Estephan on tcg.

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/ ... D2Jil4w39g
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by ktkenshinx » 9 months ago

pierreb wrote:
9 months ago
I'm kinda tired of reading 'interactive' when you simply mean 'run counterspells'. The only interactive bits in snow is archmage charm, cryptic command, mana leak and the like. Oh yeah, I forgot: veil, blood moon and anger of the gods.

Meh. If you want control decks to be tier 1 and be the top decks, fine. But stop saying they are interactive and other decks are not. They are a form of control.

There are interactive decks. Jund, UW, ... even GDS and humans have interactive cards. We know what the problem is with interaction in modern: the answer cards are too weak. Modern is a legacy with weaker threats but vastly weaker answers, like pyroblast, swords to plowshares and FoW (among others)
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Sadly, many members of this thread seem to be confusing the word interaction. For some weird reason, for some thread members, interaction==counterspells and action on the stack. Humans is a kind of an interactive deck and blocks inside a combat are interaction. Jund is a super interactive deck, hand disruption is interaction. I think it has to do more with the fact that the blue players think that they are the only and true interactive mages, a thing which obviously is horrendous to think.
PS: I am not saying every blue mage thinks of that, but I have heard this opinion around and it seems like a mess to me.
I don't remember if it was this thread or a previous incarnation, but I define interaction as literally anything that interacts with an opponent's resources. Humans definitely has interactive cards. Those are also proactive cards (i.e. creatures that can attack), but interactive nonetheless. See Freebooter, Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage, and others. Jund and GDS are also posterchildren for interactive cards. By the same token, Bant Snow is also extremely interactive. Of its roughly 36 nonland cards, about 23-25 interact with an opponent's resources with the 2+ Snapcasters rebuying those effects. 5+ of the lands also contribute to that interactive gameplan (Sanctuary to rebuy the interactive effects, 4 Field). I'm totally fine with us agreeing interaction is more than blue decks and countermagic decks, but at the same time we must acknowledge blue/countermagic is itself also interaction, and that Bant Snow is itself a very interactive deck.

What makes Astrolabe piles so uniquely interactive is that they effectively interact with most strategies. This makes them feel like they are running higher quality answers to diverse format threats. Unlike something like Jund, which is good at one-for-one answers but weaker to other more linear decks, Bant Snow fills some of those gaps because its manabase supports such wide answers. It effectively addresses both go-wide strategies via sweepers, Uro, Coatl, and Command loops, and even big mana courtesy of Fields backed by countermagic. It's SUPER rare for an interactive deck to accomplish this while also answering things one-for-one (Path, counterspells, etc.). Incidentally, this is also why the deck is so good and almost certainly posting a lopsided MWP spectrum.
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
I mean, I am not suggesting it as definite, and this is why I used the word "suspect". If I wanted to be definite, I would use the word "I am sure that...".
As days go by, I begin to realize that they are going to look at AA+Sanctuary. Really don't want those snow decks to die off. Let's see.
Either way, I am of the opinion that Modern will devolve into two ships passing in the night if AA + Sanctuary both get banned.
I don't understand why you are making this incredibly semantical, nitpicky argument that doesn't even accurately represent what I was saying. You zero in on my use of the word "definite" and completely ignore the rest of the sentence. Specifically, my use of the words "AS definite' and "suggesting," and my acknowledgement that it is "definitely a risk." The first ("as") is to acknowledge there are degrees of definition and the format trajectory is not as clear as you are suspecting. The second ("suggesting") is to acknowledge that you are not outright stating this but rather inferring it with your statement. Finally, the third ("definitely a risk") is to acknowledge that your mere suspicion is reasonable! In fact, my statement is largely agreeing with you while just trying to qualify your argument. And yet, you are still trying to win little battles. This reminds of a recent Twitter exchange we had in which you first called out a random Tweet for no reason, then ignored a related Tweet in which you were actually tagged, and then misrepresented my entire Twitter history, all to seemingly try winning points in an argument. I am again requesting you stop these kinds of posts.
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
I realize that such articles are very polarizing, depending on what we believe, but here's one from Jess Estephan on tcg.

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/ ... D2Jil4w39g
I can't imagine Wizards bans AA and Urza at the same time. An AA ban is more than enough to blunt Urza decks on its own without banning the namesake.

As for unbans, I have no clue how to predict these and have never seen someone describe a reliable prediction method. If anyone has any crystal balls about this, please let me know.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
9 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
I realize that such articles are very polarizing, depending on what we believe, but here's one from Jess Estephan on tcg.

https://infinite.tcgplayer.com/article/ ... D2Jil4w39g
I can't imagine Wizards bans AA and Urza at the same time. An AA ban is more than enough to blunt Urza decks on its own without banning the namesake.

As for unbans, I have no clue how to predict these and have never seen someone describe a reliable prediction method. If anyone has any crystal balls about this, please let me know.
I don't agree with a lot of what she said, but it's good to see where other people's heads are at. I feel like it's only going to be Arcum's Astrolabe right now. There is not really that much incentive to get too "froggy" and do multiple bans, other than to outright admit fault for several designs. Modern may still be able to "absorb" some of these designs, like Urza, High Lord Artificer and Emry, Lurker of the Loch for example. Who knows, quite yet?

For unbans, I just feel like whatever card(s) won't have much of an impact or an average impact at best should be unbanned. It worked for me in guessing the Ancestral Vision, SotM, JTMS, BBE, and SfM, although I was completely off in the timing of every SINGLE ONE. :poop: Some people believe that WotC only wants to do unbans that can "fix" the format, but I adamantly do NOT believe this.

But in the past week, there's been video proof of Birthing Pod and Splinter Twin being unbanned. The cards' prices have skyrocketed, making me a fool for speculating on weaker (cards) unbans. The fakers are out in full force, but who knows? Soeone may end up correct. I remember at FNM when someone said that Splinter Twin was not on the Beta testing, I did not believe that it could be banned. Still, under the advice of others, I bought the store's 12 copies of Kiki-Jiki (I already owned 3 of my own). Turned out it was correct, which I would not have believed in a million years. It set a precedent that WotC can ban and destroy a deck if it is just the best deck, even if it is by inches. To quote Dominic Toretto in Fast and Furious, "it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning."
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
9 months ago
As for unbans, I have no clue how to predict these and have never seen someone describe a reliable prediction method. If anyone has any crystal balls about this, please let me know.
I don't think there is one. A statistical approach can't be applies, as banned cards aren't played and therefore generate no statistics. From what I've seen, unbans seem to be primarily political and treated as a finite resource. If there's some major bans, they seem to give an unban to blunt the blow. With big Modern PT's, if they don't ban they've done an unban as well.

Both of these arguments imply that there's several cards on the ban list that they believe are safe, and uniquely so in the case of Modern as we started the format with some cards banned before they could prove themselves an offender.

Thus, their main criteria seem to be using safe banned cards after major bannings and before big events if no shake up is needed. These could both be somewhat predicted by extrapolating from the need for bans. However, the exact card is going to be more tricky as it probably shouldn't slot into the same decks targeted by bans, and ideally go into another deck.

One final criteria it seems for unbans, is that Wizards has been extremely consistent in reprinting an unbanned card 12 to 18 months after it is unbanned. Some of these have been in Standard, but most haven't. I would put good money on Stoneforge Mystic being in the next Zendikar block. So, if you can lay out a case for good unban opportunities, and reasonably narrow down the list of what cards are safe to unban. By looking at a combination of banned cards, as well as upcoming reprint opportunities you can probably get a pretty accurate gauge on what the unban will be. But, the margin of error on this is still much larger than in predicting a ban.

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
I don't agree with a lot of what she said, but it's good to see where other people's heads are at. I feel like it's only going to be Arcum's Astrolabe right now. There is not really that much incentive to get too "froggy" and do multiple bans, other than to outright admit fault for several designs. Modern may still be able to "absorb" some of these designs, like Urza, High Lord Artificer and Emry, Lurker of the Loch for example. Who knows, quite yet?
I'm very unsure on Emry long term. One of the things I've got my eye on in the format is a Mox Amber powered deck. We are very close to a critical mass of legendary creatures to turn it on quickly. Aside from Emry being in blue, which has the greatest concentration of low mana legendary creatures, Mox Amber has an additional interaction here in that you can cast it, and still get a mana reduction on the cast, plus tap for mana once it's in. Ambers got a pretty ridiculous Teferi interaction too as it bounces for mana acceleration, while keeping you protected from counterspells.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

Interaction is not the stack, but the stack is part of interaction.
Interaction is not just counters.
Interaction is not just killing dudes

The following things are interactive
1 Blowing up your land
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
3 Blowing up your hand
4 Blowing up your creatures, walkers, or other permanents
5 Countering your stuff, in any way
5 pumping or giving hexproof or protection in response to removal YES VEIL IS INTERACTIVE, IT MIGHT BE TOO GOOD BUT STOPPING REMOVAL ON THE STACK IS INTERACTIVE. If someone thinks Veil is not interactive, as stated on the internet repeatedly, they have not understood interaction. It cuts both ways.
6 Blocking your creatures
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off




Problem for wotc is a good number of them end up with opponents 'doing nothing' , unable to execute the play they want, or feeling bad, especially if they are an arsehole who sees that they have a game winning combo in hand and don't get to win with it. I don't give a flying how my opponent feels. A decent opponent will accept that is how the game works, and crappy opponents who don't need to sod off and play another format or even game . That is a problem for wotc, who don't want feel bad and have to use their special interaction- the ban list- to stop things their poorly designed game can't.

Doing nothing on one side is how Legacy works often, opponents do nothing as their resources go. If not they get insta killed (and can do nothing about that).

Sadly rather than teaching people to scoop wotc have developed a downer on most of what I listed, so that all we have in modern is what we have from the old days- very decent handkill, inefficient to at best moderately efficient land kill, the ludicrous Veil, poor taxes, with very little stuff printed that fits the interactive list, lining up against increasingly powerful walkers and creatures. The odd damping sphere or spyglass is not exactly going to cut it. Which is what wotc want for Standard and Pioneer, but leaves Midern in limbo, needing better interaction but not getting it.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

There are ways to help predict some unbans- watch the markets, but not when the ban is announced - pod, twin doing their SFM dance means nothing, but had pod mysteriously moved two or three weeks ago it would have been a clue. Obviously this is not a foolproof way, but as someone who follows these things, a lot of unexplained things happen in the finance side that make sense in light of wotc announcements or printing, reprinting. The latter is especially true, and the majority of hugely significant reprints are trailed in advance on the markets.

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

Punishing fire wouldn't be garbage but it wouldn't take over the meta either. That said it is the lowest risk unban remaining.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
...
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off
Does this apply to static abilities that require no further thought or input once on the board? Such as Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon? Among others?

Edit: what about the slew of WAR planeswalkers with static text? Is T3feri interactive? Narset? Ashiok? Karn?

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
...
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off
Does this apply to static abilities that require no further thought or input once on the board? Such as Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon? Among others?

Edit: what about the slew of WAR planeswalkers with static text? Is T3feri interactive? Narset? Ashiok? Karn?
I'll answer for drmarkb: Not it's not. T3feri prevents interactive play, I wouldn't categorize its static ability as "interaction".

Saying that Veil is an interactive card is technically true, but also extremely cynical and misleading. The effect itself is an interaction, and it is interactive in that sense. No offence @drmarkb, but DUH!!!!!. Veil prevents any and all interaction from 2 of 5 colors in mtg, and the 2 most interactive ones at that. So the net result of Veil in the format is much less interaction, because why bother?

It's also a very specific kind of interaction because it only interacts with opposing interaction. In that sense, you could say that there is absolutely NOTHING truly interactive about Veil, because it's only purpose literally is to prevent interaction...

So, yes, Veil is an interactive card, but on closer scrutiny, that argument is also extremely hypocritical.

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Post by Arkmer » 9 months ago

I think this is broad enough for me to jump on as well.
Honestly, interaction is like a conversation. I make a point, you make a counterpoint, I make a point, you make a counterpoint, etc, things shift, you make a point, I make a counterpoint. "Moves and counter moves", if you will. If I'm talking to someone and they're being very passive and not providing back and forth, then I would really struggle to call them interactive in the conversation.

As such, I don't consider static abilities interactive. Much like saying "I refuse to talk about politics" is a refusal to interact on politics opposed to reaching and twisting to say that you have interacted on the topic by stating that you refuse to interact on it. In Magic terms that's playing out Ensnaring Bridge to show that you refuse to entertain any combat but then call it interacting on combat. From that point of view, I feel that interaction is reactive by it's very nature.

I would present an exception in cards like Thoughtseize where, conversationally, you lead with something like "and before you go on about XYZ, consider ABC". Essentially a response given before the question in a 1 for 1 manner opposed to a blanket refusal of a topic.

So what about Veil of Summer? I feel it's blended. It's a static effect but for a turn. It's interactive in the sense that it is responsive and is used as a counterpoint. It is uninteractive in that it constitutes a static effect. The card as a whole is very oppressive for what it does, I see it as preying on an already disadvantaged card type, but that doesn't disturb the category I would place it in.
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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

Thought being applied continually does not have to be requirement for interactive, and anyway the thought is often the order of casting. I see an opponent make a 20 20 on an empty board with no cards in hand, and as Clint Eastwood might have said, I figure he ain't collecting for the red cross, I swords the bastard. No thought needed, but still interaction, does not make it bad, and in the next game there might be loads of thought into swordsing a dude. Thought is situation specific.

Take a Legacy example of continuous abilities, me on the play.
..I see a mox d start and get thoughtseized and cast E tutor to top deck pithing needle.
I lay P needle next turn, name Thespian Stage without having seen their depths. Plenty of thought....until I lay it. Nobody is going to criticise Pithing needle for being static.

A similar example, I am on the play, I have a ritual, two Lillies, and Ashiok. I cast Ashiok, they have the t3 win via crop rotation. Game goes long because I correctly called Ahiok over either Lilly. Otherwise dead T3. The thought is knowing what to cast with the ritual.

I don't think you have played enough with Bridge if you think it does not require *huge* skill to play with, managing your hand size always a challenge with it against DnT. Chalice too has areas of skill with it on both sides of the board, naming the choice (often recognising when to pop it down for zero is really important in stax decks, chalice for zero or one is a key decision vs Storm in Legacy), or recognising what gets round Chalice. In Modern there is less consideration and thought for such cards but then that is the format all over, less thought (and there was not much more consideration in 2014 when I would drop a 2cc dude leaving one mana against Twin, only to be Exarched and comboed out not holding Path).

Again, deciding whether to t1 or 2 Moon or Trinisphere is a key decision requiring format and deck knowledge, and even with brain dead Karn, I have seen players with Karn and a Lattice known about by both players, and seen great Mtg as one player baits out an Assassin's Trophy over two turns, clearing the way fir the combo, only to be hit by the second as the Lattice combo is executed. Mtg has many brain dead situations, and a huge number of them came with now banned cards, but even they produced thought requiring mtg sometimes.

So yes, interaction includes permanents with static abilities, whether that be rubbishy Dovin or T3. I suspect what you mean is you don't like Teferi 3 doing a one sided city of solitude. Neither do I, and I would love a great way to interact with walkers other than critters and needles, but nonetheless if you have two counters in hand and they landed tef3, they are interacting by having it, in the same way a player casting silence to bait a counter before combing off is interacting. Abrupt Decay also interacts in both saying no to counters and killing something.

Cards like Meddling mage are also static and only braindead or non interactive if you name incorrectly.....

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
...
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off
Does this apply to static abilities that require no further thought or input once on the board? Such as Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon? Among others?

Edit: what about the slew of WAR planeswalkers with static text? Is T3feri interactive? Narset? Ashiok? Karn?
I'll answer for drmarkb: Not it's not. T3feri prevents interactive play, I wouldn't categorize its static ability as "interaction".

Saying that Veil is an interactive card is technically true, but also extremely cynical and misleading. The effect itself is an interaction, and it is interactive in that sense. No offence @drmarkb, but DUH!!!!!. Veil prevents any and all interaction from 2 of 5 colors in mtg, and the 2 most interactive ones at that. So the net result of Veil in the format is much less interaction, because why bother?

It's also a very specific kind of interaction because it only interacts with opposing interaction. In that sense, you could say that there is absolutely NOTHING truly interactive about Veil, because it's only purpose literally is to prevent interaction...

So, yes, Veil is an interactive card, but on closer scrutiny, that argument is also extremely hypocritical.
No, it is not hypocritical. That would be me saying something and doing something else, or saying don't do this and doing it myself. I say
Veil is interactive, if I was being hypocritical I would be saying elsewhere it is not interactive, perhaps in a game situation. I think, no offence, you are having difficulty defining hypocritical, let alone interactive.

Teferi is interactive if you have cards you can't use because of it. If it stops you, it is interacting. They answer you before you answer them. It also interacts if it bounces your stuff. It is not interactive if it can do nothing to you or your cards and is just bouncing its owners' astrolabe. It is also possibily too good for Modern...

Combat interaction.
Counters interaction.
Landkill
Handkill
Enchantment kill
Taxing.
Stopping your answers all interaction.
If it affects your ability to execute your plan...interaction.

The problem comes when someone only wants one form of interaction and calls all the others 'non interactive'.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 9 months ago

I'd argue that preventing your opponent's play is not interactive. Meddling Mage, for example, and Ensnaring Bridge are not interactive, rather they are prison cards. Counterspells don't count in this category because your opponent has to cast a spell for them to work in the first place, therefore not actually preventing the play, rather responding to it..

I also would say that counteracting your opponents interaction is interactive. Cards like Thoughtseize, Blossoming Defense, Dispel, Pact of Negation, and even Veil of Summer are interactive, even if they can be annoying. Even Dredge siding in Nature's Claim for your hate piece is interaction, as it relies on opponent action to be used.
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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Anything you are not making conscious and active decisions about is not interaction to me. Consciously putting in your deck, and casting Chalice of the Void *might* barely count as "interaction" as it is a choice you make in deck design, gameplay stages, and casting value. Once its in play though, it is no longer "interaction." You are not making any conscious decisions about whether or not to counter things. You are not acting or reacting. It is a static ability that sits there and continues to do its job with no further input. It is literally the opposite of "interaction," which is: "an action which is influenced by other actions."

Let's say Stony Silence is in play, and your opponent casts a new artifact that was not in play when Story Silence was cast. It has an activated ability that no longer works. What action did you take? And how was it influenced by this new artifact?

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

So you want a game with instant, and creatures, and ctivated abilities and nothing else. Twon v Twin. Not much point discussing it then,but I would recommend you play Legacy, it might change your mind. You the game you want will end up with nothing but bannings, the game I want is closer to Legacy.
You can even play Twin in there, you might like it.
You normally brainstorm the cards you don't want away, so Stony Silence on your activated artifact is not an issue, you just tutor for one of the many answers in your deck, or kill them with your inevitable plan B. All stony silence does is stop decks winning t3, not shut them out, because Stony Silnce can be interacted with, even in artifact only decks with zero coloured spells (blast zone, Ulamog, Ugin , All is Diust, smokestack etc.).

The same thing applies to Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle as Stony silence, rendering multiple cards dead, sometimes up to 8 if you kill an AB combo with one of them. Did someone upset you by playing pithing needle on your Exarch once? So much hate for static abilities.

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

To be clear, I have never understood the hate towards T3feri. I play grixis control so I should be severely impacted by it, but having Snaps/Bolts/Kolaghan's Command appearently makes killing a T3feri much more trivial than it is for non-red control decks. It's already kind of unlikely to resolve and even if it does, flashing in a Snap into Thought Scour or something in response to T3f is such an easy way to force the issue. Tick down to bounce my Snap? Good luck.

If combo decks are casting T3feri to protect their combo, they're also taking a turn and a card off trying to actually execute the combo. That play also isnt really a widespread thing. When's the last time you had infect/Ad Nauseam/Neoform/Storm cast T3feri against you? 3 times in the last two months? It's barely a thing.

T3feri is an absolutely trash card vs any aggressive strategy.

It's an absolute house in non-red control-matchups. And it just so happens that the current best deck is exactly that. In most other matches, T3f is average to really bad. I frequently find Narset/Ashiok more annoying than T3feri...

I had an interesting thought on ban-worthyness based on how much a card is played btw: Force of Negation is the 8th-most played card in modern at 23% and 2.8 copies/deck. Force gives you a situationally free answer to non-creature spells, a vital tool for the format to combat fast combo decks. I dare say without Force, combo might well be a massive, problematic factor in the metagame.

The interesting thing is that I have never heard anybody say that Force is in any way problematic. That's because it's "unfair", free mode requires you to pitch a card, which most people seem to feel is a reasonable, balanced price to pay for the effect. Force, imo, is a perfect example for a powerful, yet balanced card that has a positive influence on the format. it has its restrictions, but is flexible in that you can just hard-cast it on your own turn or whenever you have the mana for it, and it has an "emergency"-mode.

Veil is on the other end of that spectrum. It's a dumb, "protection from everything blue and black for a whole turn no matter what.... draw a card on top of that why dont you" for 1 green. Just braindead. Nobody has ever thought "how do I best utilize this spell, in which situation is it good?". Playing with Veil is nothing more or less than: "Is there blue and/or black in my opponents deck? If yes → all copies in post board" and then while playing: Do I have 1 green open? If yes, slam whatever I want knowing 100% I will get to resolve it on top of getting a 2-for-1. There is no skill involved, there is no situation where Veil is bad or dead. You can protect your own proactive plays, you can protect permanents, your own answers from being countered. It simply doesnt matter. Veil is just a big "Eff You" with no wiggle room for blue and black interaction.
Last edited by th33l3x 9 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
To be clear, I have never understood the hate towards T3feri. I play grixis control so I should be severely impacted by it, but having Snaps/Bolts/Kolaghan's Command appearently makes killing a T3feri much more trivial than it is for non-red control decks. It's already kind of unlikely to resolve and even if it does, flashing in a Snap into Thought Scour or something in response to T3f is such an easy way to force the issue. Tick down to bounce my Snap? Good luck.

If combo decks are casting T3feri to protect their combo, they're also taking a turn and a card off trying to actually execute the combo. That play also isnt really a widespread thing. When's the last time you had infect/Ad Nauseam/Neoform/Storm cast T3feri against you? 3 times in the last two months? It's barely a thing.

T3feri is an absolutely trash card vs any aggressive strategy.

It's an absolute house in non-red control-matchups. And it just so happens that the current best deck is exactly that. In most other matches, T3f is average to really bad. I frequently find Narset/Ashiok more annoying than T3feri...

I had an interesting thought on ban-worthyness based on how much a card is played btw: Force of Negation is the 8th-most played card in modern at 23% and 2.8 copies/deck. Force gives you a situationally free answer to non-creature spells, a vital tool for the format to combat fast combo decks. I dare say without Force, combo might well be a massive, problematic factor in the metagame.

The interesting thing is that I have never heard anybody say that Force is in any way problematic. That's because it's "unfair", free mode requires you to pitch a card, which most people seem to feel is a reasonable, balanced price to pay for the effect. Force, imo, is a perfect example for a powerful, yet balanced card that has a positive influence on the format. it is flexible in that you can just hard-cast it on your own turn or whenever you have the mana for it, but it has an "emergency"-mode.
Force of Negation is a very good card to have int he format. I'm saying that as a Neobrand player. But if that's literally the only reason that Neobrand still has access to unbanned cards, that's a tragedy. Neobrand is not the type of deck that should be in the format. If more people played it, it would be banned so fast. Announcement for an announcement for an announcement, right?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

That would be super akward, if there was a massive, unjustified hype around a deck like Neobrand, and all of a sudden, 25% of people just played Neobrand for the hell of it. And Wizards is sitting there, looking at its stats, and go "but... but it's only winning 45% of non-mirror matches, do we ban or no?"

I suspect the opposite is true though. That Neobrand, if piloted perfectly, actually has absurd win rates, but it just doesnt appeal to enough people, like Amulet Bloom didn't when Summer Bloom was banned with the deck at a laughable 2%.

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
...
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off
Does this apply to static abilities that require no further thought or input once on the board? Such as Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon? Among others?

Edit: what about the slew of WAR planeswalkers with static text? Is T3feri interactive? Narset? Ashiok? Karn?
Cards that interact with your opponents resources in some way are well... interaction. Resources being life, mana, board state, and hand (or cards available from outside the hand).

By definition those cards are interacting with your opponent. Ideally however interaction should go back and forth with play and counter play. This incidentally, is why WotC favors creatures so heavily. Because all colors get creatures and creatures generally have options in combining blockers to kill something in a worst case scenario.

Note that in the examples you gave, not all decks can easily take out a Blood Moon. Planeswalkers are a little easier in that creatures directly interact with them opposed to say artifacts and enchantments.

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Post by TheAnnihilator » 9 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
9 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
2 Taxing your spells, creatures, attacks or abilities
...
7 Turning your creatures or abilities of walkers, enchantments off
Does this apply to static abilities that require no further thought or input once on the board? Such as Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon? Among others?

Edit: what about the slew of WAR planeswalkers with static text? Is T3feri interactive? Narset? Ashiok? Karn?
Cards that interact with your opponents resources in some way are well... interaction. Resources being life, mana, board state, and hand (or cards available from outside the hand).

By definition those cards are interacting with your opponent. Ideally however interaction should go back and forth with play and counter play. This incidentally, is why WotC favors creatures so heavily. Because all colors get creatures and creatures generally have options in combining blockers to kill something in a worst case scenario.

Note that in the examples you gave, not all decks can easily take out a Blood Moon. Planeswalkers are a little easier in that creatures directly interact with them opposed to say artifacts and enchantments.
A card that changes game rules in a blanket statement and prevents your opponent from playing is not interactive, it's preventative. Preventing opposing gameplay and responding to opposing gameplay are different things.

Stone Rain is interactive. Blood Moon Is not.

Counterspell is interactive, Chalice of the Void is not.

Disenchant is interactive, Stony Silence is not.

Fatal Push is interactive, Ensnaring Bridge is not.

I'm not saying prison cards are bad or should be banned, in fact I think that prison cards can be useful tools. That said, saying the above cards are not interactive is not hypocritical.
Modern:
GU Amulet Titan
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