[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Ym1r
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Post by Ym1r » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
So, about Astrolabe:

Modern Challenge: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/a ... 2020-07-05

Astrolabe decks: 12/32 decks(2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 21, 22, 27, 28, 30)
Veil of summer : 15/32 decks.
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath: 12/32 decks.

For a comparison: Lightning Bolt is a part of 6 out of 32 decks.

Astrolabe, more specifically is a part of 4 out of 8 top 8 decklists.

I think the hour of bannings might not be late.
I, for once, have been having a BLAST with this modern meta game at my LGS, which fairly represents I think what is happening. We are 2 (or sometimes 3) people playing snow variants (Bant stoneblade/bant control/sultai), there are 2 people playing the Gruul midrange list (and have won the last 2 FNMs as well), there is 1 person on dredge, 1 person on Jund, 1 person on Tron, 1 person changing between Ad Nauseum/GDS, and then there are some outliers like one person playing ball skelementals, 1 person playing UB Ninjas, and 1 person trying all sorts of stuff like Yorion Taxes or Mono white hammer time.

For me that really is GREAT. We all get to have close matches, games are fun, power level seems appropriate and no deck seems to have an absolute edge over the others.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by stille_nacht » 9 months ago

What happened to humans? I look away for one second and its totally out of the meta; it even survived lurrus so I'm just a little surprised. Are snow decks just pushing it out with midrangey value?

Also, before uro//lurrus, there was a brief meta where grixis urza was pretty good despite the mox banning. If they do go the route of banning astrolab, what are the chances it remains a functional deck for the time after?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 9 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
9 months ago
since many here are talking about moving moving modern cards. I don't have much value cards left. Only about 30 khans fetches, and 3 sets leyline of the void. Prices are so low these days though... could there be a chance for prices to go back up again once a vaccine for corona is available next year?

and on something else. I saw a Song of Creation deck being tested at mtgsalvation - there is also a mention there of someone seeing a version of the deck that can win turn 3 with summoner pact and wild cantor. Deck looks promising.
I think cards will definitely rebound at some time. The problem is that there really is no guaranteed timeline. In my state of California, USA, we have flip flopped between masks being necessary and not. Meanwhile over 140,000 are dead nationwide from Covid-19.

I personally decided to sell all of my Legacy, Reserve list, Commander stuff, and foils away. I kept most of my Modern decks and Pioneer stuff. It actually feels good to me to not have to use a large safe for Magic cards anymore and not be worried all the time.
Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
. Also, @FoodChainGoblins , Elementals top 8-ed as well.
I am SO happy! I am going to try to hit up that guy and talk with him a bit. It's amazing just to see someone try the deck. I'm not sure if you saw my post here, but I did a donation League for Squachief on MTGO with Elementals, but he went 0-4 before dropping. 3 of the matches were super close, in 2 he got top decked removal when he went for the win in game 3, and he had a lot of variance in general (not too many mulligans, but more than the opponents).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Aazadan » 9 months ago

Cards coming back is largely contingent on having places to play. Eventually covid won't be an issue but the game as a whole has a good chance of simply going entirely digital at that point.

Our local store is talking about changing fnm from modern to commander and cubes as the default because so many sold their cards to play online instead.

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Post by blkdemonight » 9 months ago

As someone who hasn't had opportunity to go to a LGS for months, I'm better off buying any sealed products that happens to be collector boosters or precons, unless they are mono color boosters.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 9 months ago

Re: (Arcum's) Astrolabe
Way too much going on in the world and professionally for me to commit to full articles right now, but I think it's important to have some contextual data on Astrolabe prevalence. Here are some AA stats cross all nine Challenges since the companion errata announcement, as well as some historical AA context:

Overall Astrolabe prevalence: 31.3% (90/288)
T8 prevalence: 33% (24/72)
03/11 - 04/17 AA prevalence: 24.6% (380/1547)
04/18 - 05/24 AA prevalence: 17.1% (159/928)

In that pre-IKO 03/11 - 04/17 era, Bolt was at 33.7% and Veil was at 38.5%. Additional context might include peak shares of other busted cards prior to their banning (Oko at 37.6%, OUaT at 37.8%, etc. - see here for other cases https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/ ... mparisons/).

Based on this, it's pretty clear AA is trending up in a big way. As we've noted here before, it will probably continue to trend up, although I suspect the 30%-40% range will be a cap. That said, none of this is particularly surprising. AA decks, especially the Bant/Sultai+ (3C or 4C) decks exemplify the kind of secret, not-so-secret best deck that MTGO grinders love. They are interactive but capable of executing a broken goldfish gameplan of Uro beatdown. They are highly interactive with a proactive angle. They have high velocity with lots of draw effects and run both true modal cards like Charm/Cryptic/PWs, as well as secret modal cards like fetches into Sanctuary. These decks are also extremely customizable, both in terms of individual slots and in overall builds (4C Sultai vs. Bant vs. Sultai Rec vs. Yorion vs. a half dozen other options). All of this sets up Astrolabe strategies to be the clear choice for most grinders and spikes who want to maximize their ability to influence games with meaningful decisions. This is doubly true when all of our data is coming from MTGO, a platform that incentivizes high iteration and repetition of tunable shells like Astrolabe variants.

I think AA would be banned pretty quickly if we had a PT tomorrow and 30%+ of the field showed up on AA variants (pro tip: they definitely would). But in this weird pandemic world where all our data exists on MTGO, AA probably looks better to Wizards. It's technically supporting a variety of different decks in a format where diversity matters, and we're even seeing non-AA interactive strategies like UW Miracles, Shadow variants, Delver variants, etc. We all know this is probably an illusion which a PT would shatter, but there's no PT in sight. Wizards also has some epic optics problems in other areas and I imagine the AA question in Modern is extremely low on their priority list right now.

All of that is to say AA is probably bannable in the future and would likely be banned in a different world. But in this current world, I don't see it going anywhere for a while. Maybe that allows AA to establish itself as the "Brainstorm of Modern" to use an earlier analogy I posted about, but I think it's more of a balance problem than a format identity.
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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
9 months ago
Re: (Arcum's) Astrolabe
Way too much going on in the world and professionally for me to commit to full articles right now, but I think it's important to have some contextual data on Astrolabe prevalence. Here are some AA stats cross all nine Challenges since the companion errata announcement, as well as some historical AA context:

Overall Astrolabe prevalence: 31.3% (90/288)
T8 prevalence: 33% (24/72)
03/11 - 04/17 AA prevalence: 24.6% (380/1547)
04/18 - 05/24 AA prevalence: 17.1% (159/928)

In that pre-IKO 03/11 - 04/17 era, Bolt was at 33.7% and Veil was at 38.5%. Additional context might include peak shares of other busted cards prior to their banning (Oko at 37.6%, OUaT at 37.8%, etc. - see here for other cases https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/ ... mparisons/).

Based on this, it's pretty clear AA is trending up in a big way. As we've noted here before, it will probably continue to trend up, although I suspect the 30%-40% range will be a cap. That said, none of this is particularly surprising. AA decks, especially the Bant/Sultai+ (3C or 4C) decks exemplify the kind of secret, not-so-secret best deck that MTGO grinders love. They are interactive but capable of executing a broken goldfish gameplan of Uro beatdown. They are highly interactive with a proactive angle. They have high velocity with lots of draw effects and run both true modal cards like Charm/Cryptic/PWs, as well as secret modal cards like fetches into Sanctuary. These decks are also extremely customizable, both in terms of individual slots and in overall builds (4C Sultai vs. Bant vs. Sultai Rec vs. Yorion vs. a half dozen other options). All of this sets up Astrolabe strategies to be the clear choice for most grinders and spikes who want to maximize their ability to influence games with meaningful decisions. This is doubly true when all of our data is coming from MTGO, a platform that incentivizes high iteration and repetition of tunable shells like Astrolabe variants.

I think AA would be banned pretty quickly if we had a PT tomorrow and 30%+ of the field showed up on AA variants (pro tip: they definitely would). But in this weird pandemic world where all our data exists on MTGO, AA probably looks better to Wizards. It's technically supporting a variety of different decks in a format where diversity matters, and we're even seeing non-AA interactive strategies like UW Miracles, Shadow variants, Delver variants, etc. We all know this is probably an illusion which a PT would shatter, but there's no PT in sight. Wizards also has some epic optics problems in other areas and I imagine the AA question in Modern is extremely low on their priority list right now.

All of that is to say AA is probably bannable in the future and would likely be banned in a different world. But in this current world, I don't see it going anywhere for a while. Maybe that allows AA to establish itself as the "Brainstorm of Modern" to use an earlier analogy I posted about, but I think it's more of a balance problem than a format identity.
I had a long response to this, mostly ranting and complaining about Schrodinger's Ban again. But there's no point in even being upset. Nothing is going to change until the next stupid thing is broken, because our stupid broken cards of today aren't broken ENOUGH to warrant a second thought for us. At least not while Standard continues to be a dumpster fire, Pioneer might as well not exist anymore, Legacy and Vintage are laughably RL-locked, and the most popular format appears to be the fake curated one that you can't even play in paper anyway. :sleepy:

Edit: And while I disagree with the "broken" aspect of Uro beats, which are neither super explosive, nor goldfishy by Modern's standards, I absolutely love the deck for pretty much all the reasons you describe in that paragraph. It is an interactive deck, full of intricate decision trees, that has a meaningful threat that needs to be respected, but can be dealt with using the right tools. I love Bant Snow. And I would love to justify spending whatever stupid amount of money needed to get the foil extended art versions, foil Astrolabes, and whatever else. Things to sit alongside my other promos, foils, expeditions, and flashy nonsense I enjoy. I would love nothing more than to do all that. But why would I? It'd just be Twin all over again. Buy a bunch of nice, expensive pieces to a deck I love, just to have it unceremoniously ripped away for whatever arbitrary reason they decide next? But they could also just... not decide its a problem and leave it indefinitely? Yeah, that inspires confidence. :sick:

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
Modern is shafted, get it in your heads now, the modern staples are hard to.move anywhere near decent prices, bar....fetches. of course. If it is not an EDH card, forget it.
Yeah. Luckily, I'm not in a position of financial need (both wife and I can/have been working remotely for full salaries), and I haven't had a NEED to liquidate a bunch of stuff collecting dust. If I had to though... oof on those current prices. Good time to buy at least?
Good to buy, but you need to be able to.use the cards outside of Modern just in case. In some ways it is easier if you have a Legacy scene, because Modern ebbs and flows, but Legacy is played by small numbers who will keep playing, provided wotc don't screw it up too often. The old gentleman's agreement on decks still works in paper. So a card usable in Legacy will be more attractive than a modern only one, It is good to buy any card that had a high price due mainly to Modern, as long as you can use it elsewhere. Snapcasters now and bob for example are at lowest prices they have been at. Canlander or EDH are places where such cards might get extra use. I would not touch Modern only cards now. Fortunately many cards in modern are all stars, and they can be bought withbreasinable expectation of wide use.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
9 months ago
since many here are talking about moving moving modern cards. I don't have much value cards left. Only about 30 khans fetches, and 3 sets leyline of the void. Prices are so low these days though... could there be a chance for prices to go back up again once a vaccine for corona is available next year?

and on something else. I saw a Song of Creation deck being tested at mtgsalvation - there is also a mention there of someone seeing a version of the deck that can win turn 3 with summoner pact and wild cantor. Deck looks promising.

Ktk fetches are good holds...

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Dredge and Phoenix were at least as prevalent and successful as Snow decks are now (if not much more so), and they lived on for a year and a half untouched, until a different deck caused Looting to be banned. Why should Astrolabe be any different?

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Dredge and Phoenix were at least as prevalent and successful as Snow decks are now (if not much more so), and they lived on for a year and a half untouched, until a different deck caused Looting to be banned. Why should Astrolabe be any different?
drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
Ktk fetches are good holds...
I have a stack of Deltas and Strands chilling in a binder. Who knew the two red fetches would be the better choice in 2014? :woozy:

Edit: *checks* wait, when did Delta go up?? Should have offloaded those a bit ago. Ah well, continue to hold...

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Post by The Fluff » 9 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
9 months ago
The Fluff wrote:
9 months ago
since many here are talking about moving moving modern cards. I don't have much value cards left. Only about 30 khans fetches, and 3 sets leyline of the void. Prices are so low these days though... could there be a chance for prices to go back up again once a vaccine for corona is available next year?

and on something else. I saw a Song of Creation deck being tested at mtgsalvation - there is also a mention there of someone seeing a version of the deck that can win turn 3 with summoner pact and wild cantor. Deck looks promising.
I think cards will definitely rebound at some time. The problem is that there really is no guaranteed timeline. In my state of California, USA, we have flip flopped between masks being necessary and not. Meanwhile over 140,000 are dead nationwide from Covid-19.

I personally decided to sell all of my Legacy, Reserve list, Commander stuff, and foils away. I kept most of my Modern decks and Pioneer stuff. It actually feels good to me to not have to use a large safe for Magic cards anymore and not be worried all the time.
over here the situation is also not as good. Trains were forced to stop running today after almost 180+ employees tested positive for corona. The government provided 90 buses as substitute transportation. Also yesterday.. there was a record high of 2000 newly discovered cases, with 1000+ of these being "fresh" infections. I guess my hope for lifting of the ban on USPS would have to wait for a longer time.

same, have liquidated all my legacy duals. The only legacy cards I have left still with value are two wordly tutor, which I hope to sell soon to some EDH people.

most of my khans fetch are foothills, 2 sets of mire, and about 7 deltas, so I'm just waiting for the time to sell them as well. The only things I would not sell yet are the tarmogoyf on my Bant deck, as I feel they are still needed. Do have a backup mono-red prowess deck, in case I find someone who would pay decently for the goyfs.
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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

No offence, but can discussions about selling cards be moved to the appropriate threads? it's got literally nothing to do with the modern format. I might as well be writing about my grandmother's cooking recipes.

Yes, Astrolabe is in an ever larger number of decks, but it's also safe to say that pretty much every Astrolabe deck also runs Veil of Summer. It would at the very least be interesting to see how these decks do without Veil. Because they heavily rely on sorcery speed, high impact, high cmc plays in planeswalkers and Uro. Being able to make those plays bullet proof with just one green for Veil makes them impossible to reliably interact with.

From a control mirror perspective, UGx Snow decks aren't that scary. Not even Uro. It's easy enough to counter it or interact with their GY.

let UG have good cards. I'm all for that. But then get Veil the heck out of this format.

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Post by drmarkb » 9 months ago

State of the format is 'soon to be dead in paper, forever'. Selling Modern cards seems rather appropriate in that context. State of Modern does not just mean state of the meta, it means how long will the format last in paper. State of Modern is not a ban thread. By all means keep talking about bans that are not going to happen for months, there are not going to be bans of cards like Veil until big paper Modern events. Only a companion level mistake will get a ban.

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
- UR Phoenix was first invented during November(where the transition from Std into Modern were made), and where Ross Meriam played multiple Crackling Drake and Chart A Course in the mainboard.
Minor nitpick, Ross was the first to "name" to do well with Phoenix, he didn't invent it. The deck was played almost immediately, I picked up all the foil pieces in October (8 euro foil Arclights and 5 euro Things ftw).
th33l3x wrote:
9 months ago
Yes, Astrolabe is in an ever larger number of decks, but it's also safe to say that pretty much every Astrolabe deck also runs Veil of Summer. It would at the very least be interesting to see how these decks do without Veil. Because they heavily rely on sorcery speed, high impact, high cmc plays in planeswalkers and Uro. Being able to make those plays bullet proof with just one green for Veil makes them impossible to reliably interact with.
While I agree that Veil should go first, there's also the matter of T3feri. He does the same thing, but is only slotting in UWx decks and sometimes he just outright wins the game by stopping all possible instant speed interaction by himself. Also, I'm a little pessimistic that they'll handle Astrolabe/Veil/T3feri correctly if we go by how they handled the Oko/Opal ban.

@cfusionpm Have you checked the Grixis Thieves' deck? I think it's right up your alley and I think it's relatively cheap online.

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Post by th33l3x » 9 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
9 months ago
State of the format is 'soon to be dead in paper, forever'. Selling Modern cards seems rather appropriate in that context. State of Modern does not just mean state of the meta, it means how long will the format last in paper. State of Modern is not a ban thread. By all means keep talking about bans that are not going to happen for months, there are not going to be bans of cards like Veil until big paper Modern events. Only a companion level mistake will get a ban.
With all due respect, discussing wether you'd rather move your cards via ebay or TCG or cardmarket is completely off topic here and frankly should have been flagged by mods.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 9 months ago

stille_nacht wrote:
9 months ago
What happened to humans? I look away for one second and its totally out of the meta; it even survived lurrus so I'm just a little surprised. Are snow decks just pushing it out with midrangey value?
Yeah, the cards in the snow shell match up too well against Humans. Humans actually did make some adjustments like the addition of General Kudro to combat snow by sniping Uro or mystic sanctuary targets out of the yard. But it just wasn't impactful enough.

Ice-fang Coatl trades 1 for 1 against pretty much everything outside of Thalia while drawing a card, Archmage's Charm is also super relevant even if you can't counter their creatures. Using it to steal vial or big champions can be extremely backbreaking outside of drawing 2 cards. Depending on if you're playing vs Sultai instead of Bant, Dead of Winter is also a complete blowout given how easy it is to stack up snow permanents.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
@cfusionpm Have you checked the Grixis Thieves' deck? I think it's right up your alley and I think it's relatively cheap online.
I'm currently on a UW Miracles list, because new Teferi is an incredibly stupid card. With 4 Sanctuaries and 10 fetches, between Opt, Frantic Inventory, and New Tef, I have about a million ways to instantly (and repeatedly) flip a Terminus or Entreat the Angels. The deck is slow as hell, and really only wins with Entreat beats or Jace ultimate, but I find people outright conceding frequently. Monastery Mentor out of the side is also fairly delicious. I basically stole this list, but -1 Force +1 Snap main, and -1 Purge +1 Engineered Explosives side.



What is this grixis deck?

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Post by Mapccu » 9 months ago

I personally don't mind the market discussion because it's intrinsically tied to the health of the format. Strong cards lead to increased demand.

The price movement on almost everything except snow staples and fetches is a spot on indicator for format health. There is a ton of unrest about the format and paper future so people are moving to "safe" investments (tier .5 decks and fetches because they're the most movable).

If anything market trends should be a huge indicator for the exact ban/unban calls we clamor for all the time. If the price of a card starts going north of $40 Usd it can indicate there is a balance issue with the card (usually). Sometimes the market messes up (Jace, Vryn's Prodigy // Jace, Telepath Unbound saw great standard success and has had minimal eternal format ripples so the price peak didn't stick). But generally when cards like Phoenix start climbing through the roof, there is a reason.

I want the format to be accessible, but I'm relenting to the negative impact of astrolabe. It's not a net positive in my eyes anymore. In fact splashing even outside of labe is still too easy in my eyes due to fetches but that is pure personal opinion. Labe being busted is starting to exit the realm of personal opinion.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

So this was a fascinating video to watch (easy to follow at 2x speed). Definitely an interesting look at the ludicrous level of Standard and 2020 design.


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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

Spoiler
Show
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
@cfusionpm Have you checked the Grixis Thieves' deck? I think it's right up your alley and I think it's relatively cheap online.
I'm currently on a UW Miracles list, because new Teferi is an incredibly stupid card. With 4 Sanctuaries and 10 fetches, between Opt, Frantic Inventory, and New Tef, I have about a million ways to instantly (and repeatedly) flip a Terminus or Entreat the Angels. The deck is slow as hell, and really only wins with Entreat beats or Jace ultimate, but I find people outright conceding frequently. Monastery Mentor out of the side is also fairly delicious. I basically stole this list, but -1 Force +1 Snap main, and -1 Purge +1 Engineered Explosives side.



What is this grixis deck?
That list is more or less the list I've settled for Miracles, only I'm playing a couple of 5 mana Teferis and 24 lands. New Teferi is strong and unique, but nowhere near broken.

This is the list I mentioned: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=26274&d=399935&f=MO

Looks really fun.

cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
So this was a fascinating video to watch (easy to follow at 2x speed). Definitely an interesting look at the ludicrous level of Standard and 2020 design.

I mean, sure Bant is strong, but 2020 Jund would lose to 2015 (Khans) GR Ramp, Khans GW Devotion etc. Ramp will always be a problem against Jund. So are most Ux Midrange decks.

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

Welp.


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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
That list is more or less the list I've settled for Miracles, only I'm playing a couple of 5 mana Teferis and 24 lands. New Teferi is strong and unique, but nowhere near broken.
I could see that. Unsure I would need the 5 mana Tefs, but I have been very blown away by the utility Teferi, Master of Time has provided. It allows me to dig for cards I need, at instant speed, twice a turn cycle, it lets me dump Miracle cards to be topped by a Sanctuary, it tempos creatures without worrying about another ETB trigger (Jace, T3f, and T5f all bounce and can be recast), and is scary enough to often draw multiple incorrect attacks there, instead of at my life total. I have found him all-around fantastic. The only thing he doesn't do is win the game on his own, but neither does T3feri (who is indispensable most of the time).
This is the list I mentioned: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=26274&d=399935&f=MO

Looks really fun
That does look fun. I have pretty much everything to make this. Will probably give it a go at some point. Though, I don't have high expectations whatsoever. :laugh:
I mean, sure Bant is strong, but 2020 Jund would lose to 2015 (Khans) GR Ramp, Khans GW Devotion etc. Ramp will always be a problem against Jund. So are most Ux Midrange decks.
I get this too. Still funny to watch a Standard deck handily make work out of what are arguably good, fast, reliable starts from Jund. Like, neither game is even remotely close.

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Spoiler
Show
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
Dredge and Phoenix were at least as prevalent and successful as Snow decks are now (if not much more so), and they lived on for a year and a half untouched, until a different deck caused Looting to be banned. Why should Astrolabe be any different?
First and foremost, your timeline about Phoenix is wrong, as, you said they were both lived for 18 months untouched, which is untrue. I am going to prove it.
- Guilds of Ravnica was printed at October 5, 2018. The set contained: Creeping Chill, Arclight Phoenix. Now, I am going to focus on Phoenix, because the Phoenix deck did not even exist without Phoenix, but also Dredge was not that good with no Chill and with GGT banned. It needed Chill to be better.
- UR Phoenix was first invented during November(where the transition from Std into Modern were made), and where Ross Meriam played multiple Crackling Drake and Chart A Course in the mainboard.
- It did top 8 a GP before KCI was banned, but with KCI legal, it was <5%, which make it not even Tier 1, because it was an awful metagame consideration, because the KCI matchup was horrendous. That's hardly dominating.
- 21 January 2019, KCI is banned, and UR Phoenix starts dominating Modern. August 26, 2019, Faithless Looting is banned.
January-August is 8 months of domination, not 1 year and a half. Even if you add up another 3 months that the card was legal, it does not add up to 1 year and a half.

Then, if we agree on those numbers and on the fact you are consistently presenting inflated numbers(you have said the 1 year and a half at least a dozen of times, which either seems reckless on your part, if you didn't look it up, or biased if you have a reason for doing so), we can move on discussing about other things as domination, etc.
1) Which is why I said Dredge and Phoenix. KCI was secretly hiding how good Dredge was, and was quelled a bit by people super loading up on GY hate. Looting decks didn't just suddenly materialize with the printing of Arclight Phoenix.
2) Phoenix's competitive domination was demonstrably above previously-banned decks. And was only slowed when surpassed by multiple other broken cards printed in back to back to back sets. Several of which led to multiple additional bannings (like Opal and Lattice).

Maybe Looting would be fine today without Hogaak? Maybe not. But the parallels to Astrolabe are abundantly clear. Like Looting, Astrolabe enables multiple different strategies and archetypes. Like Looting, it offers card draw and smoothing ability to cast things. Like Looting, it enables abuse of various mechanics and/or zones. And does all that for the low low price of 1 mana.

So forgive me if it's hard to take your stances seriously on either Astrolabe or Looting because they are (or at least were) diametrically opposed to each other. It's really hard to take anyone seriously who said repeatedly, with a straight face, for months, that neither Phoenix nor Looting were a problem. Then watch that same person repeatedly call for Astrolabe to be banned. It's just silly.

Edit:
Tzoulis wrote:
9 months ago
Welp.

I wonder if they will prove me wrong, and ban Astrolabe, despite enabling a "variety of diverse decks" none of which that seem to have problematic win rates (which is the only metric they seem to care about these days).

The other formats are pretty cut and dry dumpster fires. So it's clear what they could (and should) do there. But us? Maybe they just unban something to shut us up for another 6 months? :party:

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Post by Tzoulis » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Arcum's Astrolabe is banned, big chance on Mystic Sanctuary also.
I seriously want to understand what is people's problem with Sanctuary to the point of bannability, but Veil and T3feri are fine.

Banning JUST Astrolabe won't really do a thing to nerf the power of Snowpiles. They'll still have Uro and Snake. They'll still have Veil to %$#% on opposing interaction. Banning Astrolabe alone will be the same myopic ban they did with Opal, which is why I'm sure that's what they'll do.
cfusionpm wrote:
9 months ago
I could see that. Unsure I would need the 5 mana Tefs, but I have been very blown away by the utility Teferi, Master of Time has provided. It allows me to dig for cards I need, at instant speed, twice a turn cycle, it lets me dump Miracle cards to be topped by a Sanctuary, it tempos creatures without worrying about another ETB trigger (Jace, T3f, and T5f all bounce and can be recast), and is scary enough to often draw multiple incorrect attacks there, instead of at my life total. I have found him all-around fantastic. The only thing he doesn't do is win the game on his own, but neither does T3feri (who is indispensable most of the time).
That's what I hate about T3feri. He's so integral to your game plan, in forcing the opponent not being able to interact, while an opposing T3feri will kill your gameplan. As for the 4 mana one, the moment I saw him, I thought, yeah he's going into a Miracles list, along with Frantic Inventory.

I still can't help myself but put a couple of Colonnades in the mana base though, the deck feels light on win cons and very slow, but haven't had the chance to really put in some reps and iterate on lists and cards.

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Post by cfusionpm » 9 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
9 months ago
Arcum's Astrolabe is banned, big chance on Mystic Sanctuary also.
What specific, unique deck causes you to think this? And how is it different from your defense of Faithless Looting?

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