[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

I disagree. Veil is far more in line with Legacy level of power, than it is Modern. Even if its more applicable because its the 'blue' format, it can more easily be absorbed into the format.

In Modern, its so far out of the range of acceptable, and it simply dunks on archetypes that dont need to be suppressed.
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Imagine if we got something like this:

U: Instant - Exile target red or green spell. Spells you cast this turn can't be countered. Red and green creatures cannot attack this turn. Draw a card.

Like Veil, it gets around uncounterable spells. Like Veil, it makes your stuff uncounterable. Like Veil, it protects you from primary means of attack from those colors. Like Veil, it draws a card.

Just imagine arguing that this card is OK at 1 mana.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Anyone know what the 'real' Modern winners meta is right now? Without real events to look at, is Goldfish the best we have?
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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

Continuing from my previous post on M21, I figure that I should mention Primal Might seems like one of the deepest cards in the set. It's already tied as the best rate fight card at just it's base evaluation. But then using the pump, and how much to pump starts to get really deep, especially in the face of removal or possible threat of removal (que complaints about Veil). Lots of poker games with this one. Plus, I like that it's a pump spell that random green decks might be interested in, and that infect probably won't be interested in.

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

I'm tired of this "It's legal, so he has every right to play it" argument.

Nobody is disputing that. It's completely beside the point and a shallow non-argument.

Veil of Summer is the biggest of several reasons why green is too good in modern. And incidentally, because Ancient Stirrings and land tutors are green, Tron decks and colorless decks in general tend to be colorless-green, and all of them are on Veil.

Disputing the stupidity of Veil is such a dishonest argument. Just say you're fine with a green/ramp leaning format in which UB decks are unplayable. I can accept that people have that opinion. But don't go around making nonsensical arguments in Veil's defense. That's just arrogant.

Also comparing maindeck GY hate to maindeck Veil of Summer?? that's just unbelievably outlandish. Having an interactive gameplan is not equivalent and not even remotely comparable to trying to dump your deck into your GY and win on turn 3. I don't even know where to start there, so I won't.

If RIP and friends didn't exist, modern would be GY-format.dec.

If Veil didn't exist, UB would maybe be playable.

Textbook false equivalence.

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Post by Ym1r » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I'm tired of this "It's legal, so he has every right to play it" argument.

Nobody is disputing that. It's completely beside the point and a shallow non-argument.
Well clearly you are if you are flaming someone for playing a legal card. Veil is busted and should be banned. That doesn't give you any right to flame someone for playing it. If you do, YATA.
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I'm tired of this "It's legal, so he has every right to play it" argument.

Nobody is disputing that. It's completely beside the point and a shallow non-argument.
Never defended the card.

Veil is disgusting.

You thinking it's justified to throw insults at other players because they play a veil is even more disgusting.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
If Veil didn't exist, UB would maybe be playable.
UBx has been terrible for years in Modern. Veil of summer changed nothing about its playability.

2019 MTGtop8 total recorded decks: 8072
Grixis Control: 30
Esper Control: 41
BUG: 21
Faeries: 15

Veil of Summer was released in July 2019. Even if you assume all those UBx decks were ALL recorded in the 1st half of the year: Wow 2.65% (107/4036), so playable.

2018 MTGtop8 total recorded decks: 6302
Grixis Control: 56
Faeries: 15
Esper Control: 11
BUG: 5

Wow, 1.38% (87/6302).

2017: MTGtop8 total recorded decks: 5914
Grixis Control: 113
Faeries: 23
BUG: 14

Wow, 2.53%.

Going back to 2016 wow it's 3%.

It's a joke at this point. 3% at best.

Veil of Summer is a stupid card. But if you're equating it's legality with UB being unplayable then well, by your own words.
Textbook false equivalence.

Edit to include Death's Shadow because i complete missed it:

Death's shadow as an umbrella is 6% so far this year (skewed to an extent by companion no doubt)
5% in 2019
4% in 2018
10% in 2017

So I was partially wrong in saying that UB has been terrible for years. Shadow decent, any other UBx, terrible.
If anything this further proves my point that Veil as a singular card did not affect UB's playability still stands.
Last edited by True-Name Nemesis 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Anyone know what the 'real' Modern winners meta is right now? Without real events to look at, is Goldfish the best we have?
Mtggoldfish has RG Utopia (Ponza) at the highest percentage in the past 2 weeks at 9%.

This is just my anecdotal evidence, but I played RG Ponza (but the Planebound Accomplice version) to a 4-1 finish at FNM last night. Beat the 3-0 in round 4 and the 4-0 in round 5, so nobody was undefeated. Both of them finished 4-1, Jeskai and UW Miracles. I think Infect also got 4-1, but he is somewhat a specialist.

The discussion I see on Twitch is whether Bant Snow or Bant Snow Blade is currently the best deck with Uroza closely behind. But I feel that many players don't see much of a gap right now.
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

So Goldfish would be fairly accurate in your estimate?
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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
10 months ago
UBx has been terrible for years in Modern. Veil of summer changed nothing about its playability.
Are you forgetting that Shadow Decks are UBx? Or that Jund is base black? Because Black has been fairly popular in Modern for years. Lest we forget that control decks now are UWx + Green mostly because of Veil and Uro.
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
So Goldfish would be fairly accurate in your estimate?
They changed the dates that they display data from. By default its the last 7 days (I think), but you can mess around with how many days of data you wanna look at, so I'd say it's fairly accurate.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Are you forgetting that Shadow Decks are UBx? Or that Jund is base black? Because Black has been fairly popular in Modern for years. Lest we forget that control decks now are UWx + Green mostly because of Veil and Uro.
The post i replied to made reference purely to UB, so i did not think it necessary to include Jund.

But for argument's sake:
GB/X
2020: 6% (skewed by companion)
2019: 6%
2018: 5%
2017: 3%

As for shadow, yes I did forget that. That's my bad, thanks for pointing it out.

But here are the stats are on MTGgoldfish for Death's Shadow.

Death's shadow as an umbrella is 6% so far in 2020 (skewed to an extent by companion no doubt)
5% in 2019
4% in 2018
10% in 2017

So I was partially wrong in saying that UB has been terrible for years. Shadow good-to-decent, any other UBx, terrible.
If anything this further proves my point that Veil as a singular card did not affect UB's playability still stands.
Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Lest we forget that control decks now are UWx + Green mostly because of Veil and Uro.
UB's playability has been impacted far more by the overall environment that the singular card of Veil. Right now it's the UG snow shell of Astrolabe+Uro+Snake+Veil. For any other years it would have been something else. Which is why I said this.

"Veil of Summer is a stupid card. But if you're equating it's legality with UB being unplayable then well, by your own words.
Textbook false equivalence."

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
So Goldfish would be fairly accurate in your estimate?
It may not be the most accurate, but it's the best we got.

As for Veil of Summer making UBx not viable, Gabriel Nassif is currently 7-0 in the Modern Challenge with Sultai Control, lol. That dude is such a %$#% master, lol. :grin:

No, this is not proof about UBx, but more me telling you guys that you gotta watch this - it's on Yellow Hat (Nassif)'s stream.
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Pyroblast, Modal - 1 of 2 options.
Counter Target Blue
Destroy Target Blue.

Powerful, 1 for 1.

Veil -
Draw a card if opponent has cast a Blue OR Black Card.
Spells you control (any spells!) cannot be countered for the remainder of the Turn. (Proactive Protection)
You AND Permanents (ALL!!) gain protection from Blue/Black for the remainder of the Turn. This includes any GY hate that is Targetted.

EDIT: And this is not Modal. You gain ALL OF THIS for 1cmc. Like please, come on here folks.

Indefensible. Seriously drmarkb, maybe its fine in Legacy, but it is absolutely indefensible in Modern. It is legal because they dont care. That is all.
I was defending someone maindecking the card, not the card itself.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

FWIW, Gabriel Nassif just ran off the 10-0 in the Modern Challenge (he won it). His deck? Sultai Control or Sultai Pile. This guy is a serious gas player and just solidified my choice of him over Paulo Vitor Damo Da Rosa for 4th best player of all time (PVDDR at 5th).

He did a Tweet about the deck, getting help from chat. Check it out for those of you with Twitter. I don't have Twitter, but I have access to tweets, lol.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

pierreb wrote:
10 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
We have had main deck pyro and now veil in Legacy for years. Deal with it. I have maindecked Rest in Peace in Enchantment decks and run into Dredge in Modern and Legacy, Leylines and ran into Storm etc. Modern has always been about choosing what to beat to an extent.
pyroblast doesn't draw a card.
Neither dies Veil against mono W. Or G.
People can play what they like main deck. If they choose to play a sideboard card main then that is their choice.
If u and b are the only interactive colours in Modern as was postulated then we should be complaining about the lack of good interaction in the others.

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

41% of decks on 2,5 copies of Veil of Summer . Forget all the qualitative arguments. That's just a fact.

I don't understand how anybody is arguing about this.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
FWIW, Gabriel Nassif just ran off the 10-0 in the Modern Challenge (he won it). His deck? Sultai Control or Sultai Pile. This guy is a serious gas player and just solidified my choice of him over Paulo Vitor Damo Da Rosa for 4th best player of all time (PVDDR at 5th).

He did a Tweet about the deck, getting help from chat. Check it out for those of you with Twitter. I don't have Twitter, but I have access to tweets, lol.
I played Nassif once when he was young in limited. He lost and was not a happy bunny, going 0-3 in the day's second pod iirc. Pretty sure it was steam coming out his ears as he lost to me playing like a donkey. He won his first big event not long after.....

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
FWIW, Gabriel Nassif just ran off the 10-0 in the Modern Challenge (he won it). His deck? Sultai Control or Sultai Pile. This guy is a serious gas player and just solidified my choice of him over Paulo Vitor Damo Da Rosa for 4th best player of all time (PVDDR at 5th).

He did a Tweet about the deck, getting help from chat. Check it out for those of you with Twitter. I don't have Twitter, but I have access to tweets, lol.
I played Nassif once when he was young in limited. He lost and was not a happy bunny, going 0-3 in the day's second pod iirc. Pretty sure it was steam coming out his ears as he lost to me playing like a donkey. He won his first big event not long after.....
That's pretty funny. I wish when I was becoming more competitive, I had put more emphasis on going to GPs instead of PTQs. I always felt like PTQs were better value, as I didn't care about making the PT at the time. But GPs are really just an experience that is like no other in Magic. I think I went to at least 50 PTQs before my first Grand Prix. But Grand Prix are the most memorable, including our buddy winning his first GP and in Limited. :grin:

And I definitely can see that. Most Pros are not going for the most friendly approach when they are in a match. That's one thing I appreciated so much about someone like Reid Duke, who is not trying to intimidate you, obviously not cheating because he's doing things slowly and deliberately for you to see, including drawing a card, and just very humble. While I've never had a super bad experience from beating a Pro, Reid Duke puts it on another level where I'm almost rooting for him to beat me.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
41% of decks on 2,5 copies of Veil of Summer . Forget all the qualitative arguments. That's just a fact.

I don't understand how anybody is arguing about this.
And this still doesn't prove Veil is making blue and black unplayable like you claimed.

What are we supposed to be arguing? Is Veil a busted and obnoxious card? Hell Yes.
th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
If Veil didn't exist, UB would maybe be playable.
Hell No. They are just as playable as they have always been without Veil.

Wanna know what else is a fact?

Thoughtseize is seeing more play in 2020 than 2019 and 2018.
2020: 17.8%, 3 copies
2019: 14.5%, 3 copies
2018: 15.7%, 3 copies
2017: 22.8%, 3.2 copies

Inquisition of Kozilek is seeing more play this year than 2019 and 2018.
2020: 17.2%, 2.9 copies
2019: 14%, 3.1 copes
2018: 15.5%, 3 copies
2017: 22.4%, 3.1 copies

Cryptic Command is seeing more play in 2020 than 2019 and 2018.

2020: 18%, 2.6 copies vs
2019: 11.6%, 2.9 copies
2018: 13.6%, 3.2 copies
2017: 10.4%, 3.1 copies

Veil of summer in sideboards
2020: 36.9%, 2.3 copies
2019: 8.2%, 2.3 copies (with just 5 months of legality, quite impressive)

However, these cards have only risen in play rate as Veil's own play rate has gone up.

Veil is a %$#% dumb card and needs to go but there's no need to make up stories about what impact it's been having on blue and black. And it still does not justify insulting other players from playing it.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Yeah, my problem is not that it even suppresses anything. My problem is at a philosophical level with it. :p
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Yeah, my problem is not that it even suppresses anything. My problem is at a philosophical level with it. :p
My problem is Tron and Dredge and all sorts of decks which have no business getting access to counterspells get to play preemptive Cryptic Command against me for 1 mana. I had a match the other day against Tron; it's several turns in, I had slowed them down, answered several things, had Uro in play, and a hand of Path, Stroke, and Cryptic, but not enough to cast all of them. They start their turn, cast Veil of Summer, windmill slam Ugin, and -3. I just conceded the match in disgust. :sick:

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

EaecAn9WsAIhBEX.png
I guess I just have to hang my head and sigh as I see this spoiled this morning after discussing the atrocities of Veil just yesterday....

I guess getting multiple modes on a blue card costs 6 mana, and will be unplayable outside of Commander or dedicated ramp strategies.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

And Ugin is going into a ramp dominated Standard. Big zzzz.
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Post by Albegas » 10 months ago

From a design standpoint, I don't hate the card. At worst, it's a more expensive Cryptic Command. If you can push 3 modes or more, you just about break even. Yeah it's unplayable in Modern and probably at best a 1-of in Standard, but compared to something like Disallow, which more often than not is just a rare Cancel, this at least attempts to create something different

Of course, as idSurge pointed out, in a ramp-heavy Standard, a fair deck's not going to run a 6 CMC counter if they need to make sure they can answer the T4-T5 Ugin. I wouldn't be surprised if they were concerned about good cheap counter spells being slotted in UGx decks when they were discussing and designing C21. While I would support the decision to tone down counter magic while UG was the best color combination, I'd then have to raise the question of why it was pushed to the point where they're forced to stifle the design of answers to stop ramp decks from being too dominant while also reprinting Ugin and Azusa. As a Modern player, I like the reprints in C21, especially Containment Priest, but I don't want to even think about being a Standard player dealing with all the current ramp iterations after they get Azusa, Ugin, and (potentially) Radha. I know these designs are finalized months before we even get previews, but considering that the current Standard ramp decks are built on stuff going as far back as Guilds of Ravnica, if the current Design structure can't catch that Modern level ramp support is unhealthy 6 sets later, there's something seriously wrong with Play and Design. Not that I haven't banged on this drum before, but it really needs to be hit more often.

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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

Let's not also forget these new powerful ramp cards in M21 are supposed to be in the same standard as Oko, ouat, WAR Nissa and various other ridiculous powerhouse green cards. If anyone's also following the Arena Player's Tour, UG is something like 35+ % of the Meta and has also overperformed in terms of conversion day to day.

I mean, look at this. It's just so ridiculous.



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