[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Yeah I read some threads on it, and I am hopeful that we are not about to see a purge of things like Demons, and Angels, and whatever on basic religious grounds.

It looks more like some very targeted removal of card name + art or card name + flavor text, that has problematic connotations.
UR Control UR

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
That's why I say "veil is unfortunately fine in modern". Because it's banned in Standard and pioneer already.
It's funny being banned in the others, but legal in modern. Maybe the concept of the format is such that those kind of cards are deemed not bannable.
A card's status of being banned or not in any one format is wholly irrelevant to whether it should or should not be banned anywhere else.
Keep in mind this nonsensical and horrendously bad logic kept Jace and Stoneforge banned for YEARS because of its sins in Standard. What are they here? Without the busted 2019/2020 cards, they're both a steam trash pile. And even with them, they're still "just OK" most of the time.

Veil of Summer is an egregious failure across the board, because it punishes and negates interaction from two colors whose primary identity is interaction. And does so with a color that is already by far and away the most powerful at a rate that is insulting to the colors it spits on. The card has no place in Modern due to the merits of the text on the card. It has nothing to do with any other format. It's apparently not even that big of a deal if it didn't cantrip, because Autumn's Veil has been Modern legal for 8+ years. Ban Summer and make people play a version that doesn't replace itself if they want the effect so bad.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
It's just that since it wasn't banned in the previous 9 months, it's possible that it's here to stay.
Faithless Looting :hmm: :thinking:

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

True, and same as T3feri. Both are great examples of absolutely horrid design, that unfortunately are not overpowering, and as such are tolerated despite being philosophically flawed more so than 99% of card designs printed.
UR Control UR

th33l3x
Posts: 89
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

I think the key difference is that Looting was a proactive card that pulled its weight no matter what. In the decks it was in, it was basically Ancestral Recall.

Veil is the best card in the format against blue and black. And it is by an insanely huge margin. But it does squat against the other 3 colors.

This is what is so aggravating to me.

Yes, there is Choke and Boil as island hate, but they cost 3/4 mana, so a blue player has the opportunity to interact with them.

Veil is just a hard Nope.

I've said this before. Reading Veil's text is like reading an imagined card where somebody dreamed up what he would like in his green deck to never lose to blue or black decks ever again. It's such a freaking joke. ALL permanents AND the player getting protection from blue and black is already massively better than anything else.

And cantripping just makes the card beyond ridiculous.

I get that it is "legal" to play Veil of Summer, but it is so mind-bogglingly absurd that I will give people %$#% when they mainboard it with an absolutely clear conscence. That's not being a baby, I just think the card deserves to be called out for what it is on every occasion possible: a mistake.

And no, people playing Veil doesn't make them dumb, but the play of casting your 1cmc "I most probably win" card is most certainly the most braindead, unfun thing in the whole of modern.

Why are there no Azorious, Jeskai, Dimir, Grixis, Izzet control decks in modern? Veil, Uro and Coatl.

I just don't understand how people just brush this stuff off as if its nothing. Spikes flock to UGx, RDW, (E)Tron or ramp decks, not caring what they play as long as they win. Playing anything else is just ridiculous.

User avatar
Tzoulis
Posts: 279
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is my least favorite card in Modern, after Astrolabe. But I get that Modern is the kind of the format, which exists because many different mages can do a variety of busted plays. You can dredge 5 on your second turn and reveal two creeping chill and two creatures, I can play uro and then escape my broken uro on turns 3 and 4, be 6 life, 2 lands and two cards draws and one 6/6 ahead. The Ad Naus player can kill you on turn 3 with the new combo or kill you at turns 4-5 through multiple veil of summers. Another player will try to resolve a prime time on turn 2 and have a turn 3 kill.
All these can be done, are being done and can be done much faster in Legacy. So no, Modern is not the only format to do the most busted things. Magic itself as a game is -if you play to win (ie a Spike).
Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is not an OK card in Standard or Pioneer, but I have realized that in the context of the Modern format, Veil of summer might as well be (totally fine).
Veil -and T3feri- were never fine. They are just tolerated for the moment, because Magic itself is in crisis. Same for Probe. Astrolabe is on thin Ice, while Looting became a problem after a series of printings.

Aazadan
Posts: 516
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

Miscast is looking pretty interesting, I had to do a double take and confirm it was real.

More narrow than Spell Pierce, but a more powerful effect. Less narrow than Dispel but a weaker effect. Easily fights things like Veil of Summer and most removal spells if people are only holding up removal mana. I guess the question is, would you rather have that or Flusterstorm?

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

I think Miscast is worse than Spell Pierce 9 out of 10 times. Missing a problematic permanent (like PWs and the plethora or hate enchantments) is a real problem. The extra on the tax is irrelevant if you care about stopping those. As a side-grade, sort-of-but-not-really-upgrade to Dispel? Meh, maybe? But who's playing Dispel these days anyway? I mean, we even have access to Flusterstorm these days, which sees no play. And Flusterstorm is better than Miscast under every circumstance other than an otherwise spell-less turn. It's at parity after 1 extra spell, and is only better after that.

It's especially exaggerated by the systemic increase in the importance and impact of permanents vs the diminishing power of spells over the past several years.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

In a world in which Blue is playable, it's probably OK. I force Quench in Arena though, so what do I know. :p
UR Control UR

blkdemonight
Posts: 80
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by blkdemonight » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
In a world in which Blue is playable, it's probably OK. I force Quench in Arena though, so what do I know. :p
Modern game design favors tempo plays and best of 1 format encourages players to play either the best things or the counterplay.

Anyway. As someone who had played Yugioh before dropping sometime 2012-14, I was surprised that Faithless Looting was allowed to be played for so long when Wizards was constantly adding cards for graveyard oriented decks in the years before its ban. Graveyard plays so powerful when most cards aren't designed to destroy graveyards.

User avatar
Albegas
Posts: 126
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by Albegas » 10 months ago

This is entirely speculation, but I think the reason why Looting had a pass for the longest time is because no 1 Looting deck ever really had a prolonged reign of terror. At any given moment, a Looting deck was always one of, if not the uncontested, best of the T1 decks, but after the GGT ban, only Phoenix really reached the realm of any established banning criteria, and even then it only reached Twin's criteria, which is arguably one of the weakest criteria. To us who were regularly monitoring Modern it might seem obvious that Looting decks were a problem, but if I'm working for WotC and I have multiple formats to keep an eye one and no time to really study them, it seems more reasonable that Looting flew under the radar for so long. When Looting was finally banned, I don't think WotC had ever really pulled the aggregate data prior to that point to realize it was a problem. The data was likely only pulled together because they knew that they couldn't afford any controversy in the format after the Hogaak Hoedown. This mindset is also why they seem slow to react to cards that we know are problems: we observe the format with far greater scrutiny, whereas WotC likely relies almost entirely on raw data that can be slow to show "obvious" issues with the format if you aren't looking for those problems.

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 815
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

I always assumed it was a super hard decision that either Faithless Looting is okay and is a staple in Modern. It is the Brainstorm in Modern and in most of the best decks. Or they ban it and force decks to adapt.

I feel like Arcum's Astrolabe is close to this. But scanning the last 2 weeks on mtggoldfish, the meta actually doesn't look terrible. The highest played deck in the past 2 weeks is GR Midrange, lol, at 9%.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

User avatar
Simto
Posts: 251
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Copenhagen

Post by Simto » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
I always assumed it was a super hard decision that either Faithless Looting is okay and is a staple in Modern. It is the Brainstorm in Modern and in most of the best decks. Or they ban it and force decks to adapt.

I feel like Arcum's Astrolabe is close to this. But scanning the last 2 weeks on mtggoldfish, the meta actually doesn't look terrible. The highest played deck in the past 2 weeks is GR Midrange, lol, at 9%.
And that Green Red midrange deck is cool as %$#% too :) Even though I shiver at the thought of going against four main deck Blood Moon lol! Still a very cool deck.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 553
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Is Teferi any more horrid than Obliterate?
Sure,more powerful for its cost, but not more horrid than a card that literally says- all your stuff dies, no counterspells. I have cast the latter to leave 10 enchantments plus, sometimes 20, and the opponent literally can't interact with it bar a very few cards. Sure 8 mana stuff should win the game, but obliterate can just leave an enemy waiting for three lands twenty turns from now, leaving them dangling.

Teferi is normally 3 mana, draw a card, fog a dude,bounce. In control mirrors it is not, but against many decks it simply is. In Legacy the card is better, but it really is rubbish if the enemy has a resolved Oko.
I know it is asymmetrical, and not a brilliant design, but it does require a sorcery speed tap out. It certainly is not a huge issue when design has much worse failings on display since War, including stuff they won't print as much as stuff they do.

True-Name Nemesis
Posts: 156
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I just got double Veil of Summered in g1 by an Ad Nauseam Player.

I insulted him, saying he must be really dumb if he can't find a way to win a game of magic other than 4x maindeck Veil.

He said I'm a toxic player and left the game.

And you know what? I don't regret a single thing. I stand by my words 100%. If calling a player on 4x Veil maindeck a dumbass is what it takes, I'll happily do it again.

A 1cmc Cryptic Command against the 2 main interactive colors in modern should not have a place in the format. It being in sideboards is bad enough. People on 4x Veil mainboard should be mobbed the %$#% out of Modern.
Are you a child?

The card being stupid and ridiculous is not an excuse for abhorrent behavior towards other players.

He is 100% justified in playing the best cards available for his deck that are legal as set by the people managing the game.

Blame WoTC for leaving the card legal, not players for playing cards that are legal.
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is never 'totally fine'. Its a massive mistake.

You should not get to say no to U and B on the stack, in the colour which already gets massive advantages on the board as well, and do so at a rate that is comical within a historical context.

Indefensible card.
The card being busted is not an excuse to insult other players.

What's next, insulting people for playing the best decks because low tier decks are not as good?

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

True-Name Nemesis wrote:
10 months ago
.
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is never 'totally fine'. Its a massive mistake.

You should not get to say no to U and B on the stack, in the colour which already gets massive advantages on the board as well, and do so at a rate that is comical within a historical context.

Indefensible card.
The card being busted is not an excuse to insult other players.

What's next, insulting people for playing the best decks because low tier decks are not as good?
I never insulted anyone. I turned off MTGO chat a long time ago.
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 815
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
True-Name Nemesis wrote:
10 months ago

The card being busted is not an excuse to insult other players.

What's next, insulting people for playing the best decks because low tier decks are not as good?
I never insulted anyone. I turned off MTGO chat a long time ago.
It was aimed at the other person that he quoted, who admitted to insulting his opponent on MTGO. Look at the other quote. It was more of a preemptive "don't insult opponents for using the best tools that they can" toward anyone else.

I completely agree with @True-Name Nemesis. You cannot fault anyone for using the tools that WotC has made legal in the format. As I was one of the Eldrazi and Hogaak players, most people could assume that I share this sentiment very strongly.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

Aazadan
Posts: 516
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
I think Miscast is worse than Spell Pierce 9 out of 10 times. Missing a problematic permanent (like PWs and the plethora or hate enchantments) is a real problem. The extra on the tax is irrelevant if you care about stopping those. As a side-grade, sort-of-but-not-really-upgrade to Dispel? Meh, maybe? But who's playing Dispel these days anyway? I mean, we even have access to Flusterstorm these days, which sees no play. And Flusterstorm is better than Miscast under every circumstance other than an otherwise spell-less turn. It's at parity after 1 extra spell, and is only better after that.

It's especially exaggerated by the systemic increase in the importance and impact of permanents vs the diminishing power of spells over the past several years.
Which is why I used Flusterstorm as the comparison.

User avatar
cfusionpm
With that on the stack...
Posts: 1109
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: California, USA
Contact:

Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
10 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
I think Miscast is worse than Spell Pierce 9 out of 10 times. Missing a problematic permanent (like PWs and the plethora or hate enchantments) is a real problem. The extra on the tax is irrelevant if you care about stopping those. As a side-grade, sort-of-but-not-really-upgrade to Dispel? Meh, maybe? But who's playing Dispel these days anyway? I mean, we even have access to Flusterstorm these days, which sees no play. And Flusterstorm is better than Miscast under every circumstance other than an otherwise spell-less turn. It's at parity after 1 extra spell, and is only better after that.

It's especially exaggerated by the systemic increase in the importance and impact of permanents vs the diminishing power of spells over the past several years.
Which is why I used Flusterstorm as the comparison.
There's two problems with that comparison though:
1. Spell Pierce is almost always better, especially with prevalence of 2-3cmc walkers.
2. Who is playing Flusterstorm anyway? Which is already usually better?

Aazadan
Posts: 516
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him

Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

It depends on what you're wanting to counter. Not saying it's not narrow, just that it's comparable to other narrow options like Flusterstorm.

User avatar
drmarkb
Posts: 553
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

We have had main deck pyro and now veil in Legacy for years. Deal with it. I have maindecked Rest in Peace in Enchantment decks and run into Dredge in Modern and Legacy, Leylines and ran into Storm etc. Modern has always been about choosing what to beat to an extent.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Thats essentially just saying (in Modern) 'forget about playing your deck as it's intended'.

This is not some warped thing like Dredge vs RIP. or Leylines vs Storm (which runs several bounce spells for this very reason).

This is a flawed balance of power between archetypes based on 1 massive mistake of a card. 'Dont play reactive on the stack' is not the same as 'Dredge has a key flaw because it leans 100% into the GY'.
UR Control UR

User avatar
pierreb
Posts: 266
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Up North

Post by pierreb » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
We have had main deck pyro and now veil in Legacy for years. Deal with it. I have maindecked Rest in Peace in Enchantment decks and run into Dredge in Modern and Legacy, Leylines and ran into Storm etc. Modern has always been about choosing what to beat to an extent.
pyroblast doesn't draw a card.

User avatar
idSurge
Posts: 1121
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: Unlisted

Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Pyroblast, Modal - 1 of 2 options.
Counter Target Blue
Destroy Target Blue.

Powerful, 1 for 1.

Veil -
Draw a card if opponent has cast a Blue OR Black Card.
Spells you control (any spells!) cannot be countered for the remainder of the Turn. (Proactive Protection)
You AND Permanents (ALL!!) gain protection from Blue/Black for the remainder of the Turn. This includes any GY hate that is Targetted.

EDIT: And this is not Modal. You gain ALL OF THIS for 1cmc. Like please, come on here folks.

Indefensible. Seriously drmarkb, maybe its fine in Legacy, but it is absolutely indefensible in Modern. It is legal because they dont care. That is all.
UR Control UR

User avatar
FoodChainGoblins
Level 47
Posts: 815
Joined: 1 year ago
Pronoun: he / him
Location: Riverside

Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Tbh, in Legacy it's even more obnoxious, because the whole format is blue dominated. That makes it more like Mental Misstep, because you can maindeck it and pay off.

In modern, it's less good, because if you maindeck it, there is a good chance you run across some green/red/White decks and be useless.

That ensures it will be legal in Modern.
I 100% agree with this. It's much more obnoxious in Legacy. In my opinion, I feel like Veil of Summer and Arcum's Astrolabe both need to go in Legacy. Without those, it's actually a very fun format.

I've told many people this before. Like @Greeksis said, it can occasionally be a dead card in Modern. Ad Nauseam main decks 4 right now. It is not good vs. Burn or Prowess, but Ad Nauseam as a deck IS good against those decks. I personally don't see much of a difference between playing this or stuff like Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction main. You're gonna have your gotcha moments, but you will also have those less than ideal moments too. It only comes up in a meta where it is somewhat skewed.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic

Return to “Modern”