[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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idSurge
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yeah, huge reach to think otherwise. There are clear reasons behind this, its got nothing to do with balance or anything.

When they say 'problematic' they mean for racial, religious, or societal reasons.
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Tomatotime
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Post by Tomatotime » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah, huge reach to think otherwise. There are clear reasons behind this, its got nothing to do with balance or anything.

When they say 'problematic' they mean for racial, religious, or societal reasons.
The issue is that it is a slippery slope, today the mob demanded one card, and now on twitter they are demanding more. Now that this is started, there is no guarantee it will end.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yeah, huge reach to think otherwise. There are clear reasons behind this, its got nothing to do with balance or anything.

When they say 'problematic' they mean for racial, religious, or societal reasons.
The issue is that it is a slippery slope, today the mob demanded one card, and now on twitter they are demanding more. Now that this is started, there is no guarantee it will end.
I agree. I understand why the cards where chosen, but well...Unholy Strength right?
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
That would be true if we hadn't predicted exactly every banning in Modern, besides Splinter Twin and Gitaxian Probe.
To be fair Probe was banned/restricted in everywhere but Modern, many people were between Probe or Become Immense - I wanted BI banned because the Delver decks that I played at the time would cease to exist, but Probe is on another level - so its ban was predicted.
Tomatotime wrote:
1 year ago
The issue is that it is a slippery slope, today the mob demanded one card, and now on twitter they are demanding more. Now that this is started, there is no guarantee it will end.
It's not a slippery slope though. Most of those weren't fine when they got printed to begin with, others have an unfortunate combination of name and/or game mechanics that can be misconstrued. While unfortunately, they're not fine either. The "mob" didn't demand random card(s) to be banned.

I fully expect cards like Triumph of Ferocity and several goblins to be looked at.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I agree. I understand why the cards where chosen, but well...Unholy Strength right?
They stopped using the Alpha art of it and dropped the mention of devils and demons and its derivatives for almost a decade after the initial outcry. They started using such iconography after the Overton window had shifted significantly.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Yes, I know. That speaks to the issue. Is 'Crusade' an insult? A slur, or a (several) events which where justified as holy wars?

I'm going to be honest, my opinion on 'Religion' all of it, is very low. I love Fantasy because...religion makes sense there. If you remove aspects of fantasy because they are problematic, you better be ready to apply that to EVERY religion's views, or you just open yourself up to more criticism.
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Post by Tzoulis » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I know. That speaks to the issue. Is 'Crusade' an insult? A slur, or a (several) events which where justified as holy wars?

I'm going to be honest, my opinion on 'Religion' all of it, is very low. I love Fantasy because...religion makes sense there. If you remove aspects of fantasy because they are problematic, you better be ready to apply that to EVERY religion's views, or you just open yourself up to more criticism.
If "Jihad" is an issue, then "Crusade" definitely is, especially the original printing. While the former may have some less militant meaning in some cases, it has almost exclusively been connected with Middle-Eastern and Afghani terrorists and militants in the West.

I'm with you re:Religion. However, while "Crusade" is not an insult per se, but the specific card originally referred to the Crusades,, 4 of them specifically being very famous to the US people, that were massive state sanctioned actions against specific religious groups (not just Muslims).

So religious symbolism is OK, as long as it steers clear of specific real world events whose either shaped the world or effects are still felt today or at least depict universally condemned events in a positive light. For example, in Ixalan Conquistadors are bloodthirsty vampires that seek to subjugate the natives and are not depicted as holy/righteous warriors or something similar.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

I disagree with the ban, because it shows Wizards doesn't really care about paying attention to the metagame for modern at all till they have reason to.. Wouldn't surprise me that they only pay attention when Modern starts to give out low income on MTGO, Twitter outcry second. Whereas th every are hawkish when it comes to optics in culture or politics, whether it be their own bias or a mob outcry they fear.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Tzoulis wrote:
1 year ago
For example, in Ixalan Conquistadors are bloodthirsty vampires that seek to subjugate the natives and are not depicted as holy/righteous warriors or something similar.
So this one, I thought back to a different fandom and the Inquisition, and Conquistadors. I was surprised to see this done in Ixalan.

I get what you are saying though about the Crusade/Jihad angle.
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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

I wonder how long it's going to take them to go through stuff for this issue? As well as how far they'll go.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Same with Twin.
Stop that, this was covered not even that long ago in this thread. Saying twin ban wasn't predicted 'at all' is nonsense.

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Post by Ym1r » 1 year ago

Well, now with the new goblin one can play goblin twin so maybe we will stop talking about it?
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

Re-read your article you linked, it proves you wrong, Twin is literally listed in the unlikely bans, the reasoning given that it is unlikely, but it was still brought up at all, meaning it wasn't completely out of left field, people were talking about it, they just thought it highly unlikely and a bad idea.

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Post by AvalonAurora » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
That's some super twisted logic. You should re-read my above post, because I literally explain why Twin wasn't predicted as a serious ban candidate. ktkenshinx can correct me for sure!

Twin being put out into the unlikely bans together with Tronlands, Goryos, or some super unlikely suggestions makes me right, not wrong and I already explained the reason why.

I would take it if it was a possible scenario, together with Summer Bloom or even Hive Mind, but this article makes it even more certain that Twin wasn't seriously predicted by anyone.

Now, for the (N+1)th time, can anybody link a source that predicted Splinter Twin or Gitaxian probe as serious ban candidates? If not, I am keeping my stance of "Twin and Probe were not predicted by anyone".

Of course, you can keep using your alternate history stance and claim that the Twin ban was predicted, nobody is going to stop you saying that, because this is the Internet. On the other hand, nobody is going to take you seriously, if you keep using "my friend predicted this" argument vs the sources I am linking.
Now you're misremembering your own posts and moving goalposts just to try and make me look bad. Go up and read the post I originally responded to. There is nothing in it about twin being a 'serious' ban candidate, just it being a ban candidate at all. Ktkenshinx was the one who did that before you who'd been the last one I proved wrong about this, although he was more extreme in basically claiming it wasn't talked about at all, and I had to dig up a link to the MtG salvation thread with his own posts from the ban thread before the Twin ban where he was engaging in the discussion about banning twin (and claiming to people it wouldn't be banned of course, but the fact that he was responding to such posts proves it was talked about). I'm sick and tired of the hyperbole about Twin ban being completely out of nowhere that nobody talked about it at all and everyone was completely surprised and had no idea such a ban could happen. Yes, it was seen as unlikely, yes, it was seen as a bad idea for a ban target, however, Twin as a deck was one people were discussing bans for, including things like Exarch in particular, due to it being 4 toughness and thus usually dodging bolt at a time when modern's removal pool was a lot more focused on either bolt or path.

If you don't want me to scold you, be clear about Twin not being predicted as a serious ban candidate, rather than engaging in hyperbole about it not being a candidate at all.

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Well, now with the new goblin one can play goblin twin so maybe we will stop talking about it?
it looks like a decent combo.

I just hope the price of the new gob does not go up too high.
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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

I just got double Veil of Summered in g1 by an Ad Nauseam Player.

I insulted him, saying he must be really dumb if he can't find a way to win a game of magic other than 4x maindeck Veil.

He said I'm a toxic player and left the game.

And you know what? I don't regret a single thing. I stand by my words 100%. If calling a player on 4x Veil maindeck a dumbass is what it takes, I'll happily do it again.

A 1cmc Cryptic Command against the 2 main interactive colors in modern should not have a place in the format. It being in sideboards is bad enough. People on 4x Veil mainboard should be mobbed the %$#% out of Modern.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

Wow aren't you a big strong boy for crying about a game
Warning for flaming (warned 06/11/2020, post edited 07/10/2020).
-ktkenshinx-

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

The Fluff wrote:
1 year ago
Ym1r wrote:
1 year ago
Well, now with the new goblin one can play goblin twin so maybe we will stop talking about it?
it looks like a decent combo.

I just hope the price of the new gob does not go up too high.
I just read up on this a bit. T3 kill works like this: t2 Conspicuous Snoop, t3 Boggart Harbinger put Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on top, make infinite snoop copies, with the last one copy Boggart Harbinger, put Sling-Gang Lieutenant on top, sac your gobbos for the win.

Could also be interesing with spells that put target creature from your gy on top of your library.

if push comes to shove, Kiki can also just be cast and copy a Goblin Ringleader or something.

Maybe worth it?

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Post by th33l3x » 1 year ago

Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Wow aren't you a big strong boy for crying about a game
OK thank you for that input. I guess you are one of those people then.
Veil is dumb. Anybody claiming otherwise is insane.
Warning for flaming (warned 06/11/2020, post edited 07/10/2020).
-ktkenshinx-

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Post by The Fluff » 1 year ago

@th33l3x

I see. Thanks for explaining it. :)

Me and a friend built a gob deck a few months ago. Only need to do some minor tweaks, and of course buy the new gob.

Whether it's worth it or not will be answered by playtests + actual games. I'm excited.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 1 year ago

SOME people including me predicted a ban for the twin deck, but not the card twin itself. The twin card ban was a surprise, the twin deck ban was not a complete surprise.
WOTC had been banning top protour decks a a couple of years at that point, leading to bans of pod, dtt/treasure cruise, summer bloom and probably more. Twin deck ban was no surprise, twin card ban was.

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Post by ModernDefector » 1 year ago

If you guys really want to get Veil or Astrolabe banned just make 100 Twitter accounts and go on a Twitter crusade [oops, sorry] to WotC about them being wayciss. No strategy would hit them harder.

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Post by Bearscape » 1 year ago

th33l3x wrote:
1 year ago
Bearscape wrote:
1 year ago
Wow aren't you a big strong boy for crying about a game
OK thank you for that input. I guess you are one of those people then.
Veil is dumb. Anybody claiming otherwise is insane.
Veil needs to be banned but you don't have to be a baby about it towards your opponent, lol

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Veil is never 'totally fine'. Its a massive mistake.

You should not get to say no to U and B on the stack, in the colour which already gets massive advantages on the board as well, and do so at a rate that is comical within a historical context.

Indefensible card.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'd say Veil is worse than both of those. There are way too many things Veil does, or stops, its just a gross card.

It and T3feri are probably the worst things I've seen, that are not so strong as to get banned immediately, but should be.
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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

Albegas wrote:
1 year ago
This new wave of bans should not be in any way used as a form of argument about how Wizards actually deals with bans in the context of meta games. The cards hit were basically unused, and discussion of the new bans touches on multiple sensitive topics that go well beyond the scope of this thread. Just because we have one, and exactly one, isolated incident where bans occurred with zero precedent for the ban and zero competitive reasoning for the bans does not suddenly make all past and future bans completely random.
Additionally, those bans had to do not with the power level of the card but with their templates, names, or wording rather than power level. Honor of the Pure is in no danger while Crusade is gone. They would probably even do a functional reprint of Crusade to replace it, with the same mana cost and effect but different imagery.
idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Yes, I know. That speaks to the issue. Is 'Crusade' an insult? A slur, or a (several) events which where justified as holy wars?
This is going to depend on the cultures you most identify with. Other cards on that list were offensive to cultures other than what we mostly experience in the US. Stone-Throwing Devils has been recognized as a racial slur by WotC for years, although that's not one that many in the US will pick up on.

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