[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Bearscape
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Post by Bearscape » 10 months ago

This change is fair, although I would've preferred the Mulligan change. It's a big hit for some Lurrus decks but not others (the more aggressive the more punishing), for Yorion decks this seems rather inconsequential. My Modern control decks apparently will all be 80 cards from now on.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

I still think a super important factor is being overlooked:
Our reason for making this change is based on metagame data and play rates of companion decks across all formats, and on player feedback on repetitive gameplay patterns. As a group, decks using companions have too high of win rates and metagame share in Standard, Pioneer, and Modern, and have already necessitated bans in Legacy and Vintage. This trend represents a long-term problem for the health and diversity of all formats. Rather than go down the path of making several individual adjustments to the banned list for each format, we feel the better solution is to reduce the advantage gained from using a companion across the board.
This tells us a few things:
1) They do not see any problem in Modern or Pioneer, besides Companions
2) They do not want to ban a bunch of cards, meaning problems we have will remain for the foreseeable future.
3) There are no further B&R announcements planned or scheduled. This is it, until they feel like doing anything at some point in the future.

Make of these what you will.

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Post by pierreb » 10 months ago

I agree with cfusionpm.

The only difference is that you don't have it in your hand. It's still an extra 8th card, but it's CMC is +3 on the first cast. And Lurrus abilities are unchanged.

This is THE definition of a band-aid. You will still see just as many decks including Lurrus and Yorion because their inclusion is still not a drawback big enough and they provide value for long games. There is still no reason not to run them.Wizards is currently betting that they will have an impact in fewer games, and that the impact will be less than what you would gain by not respecting their restriction.

And, as cfusionpm said, even if merely included as a normal card, Lurrus (and Yorion, to a lesser extent) is still a stupidly busted card in the right decks.

PS: they basically printed a new card that you can add as an additional card in your starting hand:

Companion Wish 3
Sorcery
Companion Wish cannot be countered by spells or abilites. (And more!)
Companion Wish cannot be discarded nor exiled unless you want to.
Put a companion card you own from outside the game into your hand.
Exile Companion Wish
Last edited by pierreb 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

Of course there are decks where you "might as well". Lurrus restricts 0 cards out of Burn, 0 cards out of Grixis Delver for example.

But decks like Jund and Tron have changed quite a few cards to accomodate Companions.

And 80card decks are just less consistent than 60card decks.

I think the tradeoff becomes more interesting now.

Lurrus isn't Snapcaster Mage though. Costing 1 less and being flash is a very big deal. If you spend 6 mana on Lurrus and it just dies, you probably lose just because you had to spend 6 and not do anything else.

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Post by pierreb » 10 months ago

The problem is that Wizards is not merely judge, jury and executioner.

Wizards is judge, jury, executioner, mother, father and banker. The same group of people proudly bring forth to the world their new progeny and need to admit their child is an ugly bastard. All the while filling the vault of riches off the deeds of that same child.

This is Wizards doing all it can to ensure companions and Ikoria will still sell.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
Lurrus isn't Snapcaster Mage though. Costing 1 less and being flash is a very big deal. If you spend 6 mana on Lurrus and it just dies, you probably lose just because you had to spend 6 and not do anything else.
Snapcaster Mage is one and done. It doesn't get to do its thing each and every turn it lives. It also can't repeatedly cast the same card over and over. Many Lurrus decks also have easy access to Unearth or K Command to buy it back and repeat the value train. It also doesn't randomly have lifelink on a 3/2 body.

Lurrus does hell of a lot more than Snapcaster Mage for "just one more mana."

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Collector booster sales are great for this by all accounts, not sure about draft.
Sad times, but the masses like it so expect more.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
Lurrus isn't Snapcaster Mage though.
You are right, before a 3 mana tax, it was so much better than Snapcaster that the comparison between the two is farcical.
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Post by BeneTleilax » 10 months ago

fires banned in standard & historic modern is next. r.i.p. arcetype.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Collector booster sales are great for this by all accounts, not sure about draft.
Sad times, but the masses like it so expect more.
I would assume Draft is doing well. Many people like the format from what I've heard from friends. Very few of my friends actually hate the Limited format. I even have a friend who has 8 trophies online and has a little online battle with someone who has 45 trophies (I know, not fair). He's faced him now 3 times in the 3rd and final round the past 2 weeks, lol.

My general idea is that people like Ikoria limited.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

BeneTleilax wrote:
10 months ago
fires banned in standard & historic modern is next. r.i.p. arcetype.
What archetype exactly is 'idiotic levels of free mana'.?
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Neoform is combo.
Ad Naus is combo.
Tron is Big Mana
Opal is many different things.
Amulet is Big mana
Dredge is Dredge.
Storm is Storm.

Fires? Fires is nothing. Fires is just 1 more stupid 4cmc value engine. Thats not an 'archetype' its a flawed card design.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

No, free mana is never good lol. I mean we have been over this. Free mana is easily the number 1 'if you cross this line, you break the game' mechanic.

Fires is not 'synergy'. Its brainless! "I am at 4 mana and cast fires, then I cast a 4cmc card for free.' then its 'I have a fires out, I play a land, and cast 2 5cmc or less spells for free.

What a marvel of synergistic deck design!

It is more brain dead than Tron, and you know how I feel about tron.

EDIT: Not that it matters. Modern is more of an afterthought than any other format in the game. If one has a desire for the most degenerate gameplay that has ever transpired, the closest you will ever get to it, is Modern.

And thats fact.
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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
EDIT: Not that it matters. Modern is more of an afterthought than any other format in the game. If one has a desire for the most degenerate gameplay that has ever transpired, the closest you will ever get to it, is Modern.
I get not liking Modern, but this has become a ridiculous and stupid meme.

Have you ever watched Legacy and/or Vintage?

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Yes. Vintage is such a distinct thing, but I dont believe it has anywhere near the depth/breadth of degeneracy as Modern, it does what it does, but its Vintage, its a unique entity as divorced form 'normal' Magic as EDH imo.

Legacy COULD be degenerate, but it has all the tools to prevent it from happening.

Wizards actions speak louder than words, and unless a degenerate deck explodes to prove itself as the singular best thing, we dont see action in more than half measures.

If you wanted a format to keep doing your broken thing, Modern is it.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that as a damnation, or judgement.

That is what this format is. It is powerful, without the cards which have a stifling impact. That is what this format is, and has been, that is its identity.

Look elsewhere (while you can) if thats not your cup of tea.
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Post by th33l3x » 10 months ago

I feel like threads like this should be suspended for about 2-3 weeks after every banning/update in modern, because although modern does probably still have serious problems, the level of fact-free, data-free, negative opinion-sentiment-emotional-blubbering is simply staggering.

It's basically somebody bathing in their own tears about some banned card for 3 pages, briefly coming up for air to shout "OH BY THE WAY, FORMAT'S STILL DOG %$#%" before diving back into their bottomless pool of sorrow.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

th33l3x wrote:
10 months ago
I feel like threads like this should be suspended for about 2-3 weeks after every banning/update in modern, because although modern does probably still have serious problems, the level of fact-free, data-free, negative opinion-sentiment-emotional-blubbering is simply staggering.
I agree. But I'll reiterate this for (everyone) who seemed to miss it:
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
I still think a super important factor is being overlooked:
Our reason for making this change is based on metagame data and play rates of companion decks across all formats, and on player feedback on repetitive gameplay patterns. As a group, decks using companions have too high of win rates and metagame share in Standard, Pioneer, and Modern, and have already necessitated bans in Legacy and Vintage. This trend represents a long-term problem for the health and diversity of all formats. Rather than go down the path of making several individual adjustments to the banned list for each format, we feel the better solution is to reduce the advantage gained from using a companion across the board.
This tells us a few things:
1) They do not see any problem in Modern or Pioneer, besides Companions
2) They do not want to ban a bunch of cards, meaning problems we have will remain for the foreseeable future.
3) There are no further B&R announcements planned or scheduled. This is it, until they feel like doing anything at some point in the future.

Make of these what you will.

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

ok, woke up seeing the thread filled.

3 mana tax, plus he get's put into my hand to become vulnerable to discard? Well, that's not bad at all. My deck plays the long game anyway. I'm pleased that this nerf might bring down the price of companions even more. :)
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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
Yes. Vintage is such a distinct thing, but I dont believe it has anywhere near the depth/breadth of degeneracy as Modern, it does what it does, but its Vintage, its a unique entity as divorced form 'normal' Magic as EDH imo.

Legacy COULD be degenerate, but it has all the tools to prevent it from happening.

Wizards actions speak louder than words, and unless a degenerate deck explodes to prove itself as the singular best thing, we dont see action in more than half measures.

If you wanted a format to keep doing your broken thing, Modern is it.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that as a damnation, or judgement.

That is what this format is. It is powerful, without the cards which have a stifling impact. That is what this format is, and has been, that is its identity.

Look elsewhere (while you can) if thats not your cup of tea.
Modern is my cup of tea, as you put it -that's why I'm posting here- but claiming it's a degenerate hellhole, leaps and bounds ahead of Vintage and Legacy is a meme and pure hyperbole. You just handwaved Vintage with "well, that's Vintage". Shops aren't degenerate? Paradoxical Storm isn't? What about Oath? Dredge? HollowVine?

About Legacy, even though there are significant interaction points, most of them are Force or get dead. We've had this discussion before. Legacy is far more unhealthy (and degenerate) than it seems, since it operates on the EDH mentality of rule 0 in paper. But even then you have Dredge, Storm, Gyruda, Reanimator, OmniTell etc. All those are acceptable in their degeneracy, that puts Legacy below Modern for some reason?

Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.
Legacy is less degenerate because there are stop gaps, aka FoW, Daze, and viable Prison strategies. Modern can never have that kind of defense. Do you know how many times I saw someone enter a Modern stream chat and ask what kind of Legacy deck that is just to realize that all of the main engine pieces that are legal in Legacy are also legal in Modern; just different mana? Force of Negation was a big start and a very positive card. Modern needs more cards like that.

The only people that think Legacy is just all turn 1 combos is someone who has never or barely ever actually played the format. Legacy has some really long and thought out games that could end very quickly if someone had made an egregious mistake. Counter wars with Flusterstorm can be tough to navigate, even in today's Veil meta. The only people that don't like Legacy are people who can't afford it. That is definitely a problem, but you can't say that it sucks because you can't play it. Sometimes you get killed on turn 1 and realize, maybe I should have mulled to Grafdigger's Cage, Force of Will, or Surgical Extraction. Maybe I will come with Mindbreak Traps next week.

I haven't actually played Vintage for a long time, but I've watched plenty of streams recently. It actually is a lot more interesting than I had guessed it to be, but still I can see someone's view of whoever draws the most busted cards wins.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"?
A format which exists on the basis of having less tools to combat powerful lines of play which function on the various axis points that when unregulated lead to banned cards.

Wasteland, FoW, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm.
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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
Lastly, wtf is "degeneracy" or a "degenerate format"? Because I can't possibly envision an interpretation that puts Legacy and Vintage below Modern.
The only people that think Legacy is just all turn 1 combos is someone who has never or barely ever actually played the format.
have seen Landstill vs. Landstill in a legacy tournament. No turn 1 wins there.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Not that they didnt do something! We got FoN and Flusterstorm for example, Plague Engineer I maintain is a great card (not cuz I called for something like it before it came out or anything...lol) but...it simply is not enough to keep up.

"Do the busted thing you like" remains the order of the day, and it forever will in Modern.

No format is allowed to languish as Modern has, multiple times.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

I saw a format in which Humans/Spirits was just becoming too fast, and too disruptive. Its a safety valve card for when tribal takes over. Remember when 'take whatever percentage you think you are at against humans, and subtract 5%' was a thing?

Answers to proactive play, are what Modern needs.

And yes, 'do your busted thing' is fine. I honestly believe that if there is a vision statement for each format up on someone's wall at Wizards, that is Moderns role.

'Allows for the most proactive, degenerate lines of play, only to be banned of the competitive meta devolves to a single type of that degeneracy.'

And thats 100% fine, but I see no reason to believe otherwise.
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Plague Engineer is a card I hate with a passion. I think we had that discussion before? It's more of a prison card and even if that's kind of fine, it really eliminated Humans/Spirits/Elves/Merfolk kind of decks.
How does a 2-of sideboard card, that requires black mana, completely invalidate those decks? Seems like bigger meta changes are at play than simply one card. Because if that were the case, then we could all just play 2 SB Spellskites...

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