[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

I know folks dont like to hear this, but again, its not Modern.

Its the whole R&D of the game and a lot more people are starting to wake up to it. I've been saying for years that the game is being done wrong, and it simply has been. You need to ban MULTIPLE cards (3+) out of nearly every single constructed format, and even then, you probably just get to the 'still busted but not super busted' part of the format that needs even more work.

https://www.flipsidegaming.com/blogs/ma ... -fix-magic

They have screwed up the entire game because they have forgotten the lessons of 20+ years of design.

There are fundamental rules that have allowed this game to be one of the greatest of all time. Break them at your own risk Wizards.
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Post by metalmusic_4 » 10 months ago

About the twin ban expectation in 2016: I expected a ban to come for the deck but not to ban twin itself. WOTC had been banning out the top decks from the modern protour for a bit at that point. Pod got banned the year before. Every did expect a Summer bloom ban that year. I sold my snapcaster and scalding tarns in preps for ban that year to buy back later. I thought the ban would be snapcaster or deciever exarch and I was very shocked when the ban was on twin itself. That is how I think alot of people felt, expecting something to happen but not expecting the deck to be killed out right.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
That is how I think alot of people felt, expecting something to happen but not expecting the deck to be killed out right.
The people at WOTC, who wrote the ban announcement, told us with a straight face that Kiki Jiki was a suitable replacement. Meaning they legitimately thought banning Twin wouldn't outright kill the deck. So... read into that what you will.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
That is how I think alot of people felt, expecting something to happen but not expecting the deck to be killed out right.
The people at WOTC, who wrote the ban announcement, told us with a straight face that Kiki Jiki was a suitable replacement. Meaning they legitimately thought banning Twin wouldn't outright kill the deck. So... read into that what you will.
This brings back memories. I saw that as well and bought 6 of them from my LGS inventory for $5 each, even if I personally thought it's not a worthwhile replacement. I bought them to sell to people who DO think it is.

That ended up being the first time that my LGS didn't give me the cards I paid for. They refunded me, saying it was incorrect "stock," lol. I had bought cards that spiked for years from this LGS and this was literally the first time they said that they don't have it. This makes it very memorable to me.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
I had bought cards that spiked for years from this LGS and this was literally the first time they said that they don't have it. This makes it very memorable to me.
The impact of people desperate to replace what was taken wrongly. Same thing happened locally.
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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
That is how I think alot of people felt, expecting something to happen but not expecting the deck to be killed out right.
The people at WOTC, who wrote the ban announcement, told us with a straight face that Kiki Jiki was a suitable replacement. Meaning they legitimately thought banning Twin wouldn't outright kill the deck. So... read into that what you will.
This brings back memories. I saw that as well and bought 6 of them from my LGS inventory for $5 each, even if I personally thought it's not a worthwhile replacement. I bought them to sell to people who DO think it is.

That ended up being the first time that my LGS didn't give me the cards I paid for. They refunded me, saying it was incorrect "stock," lol. I had bought cards that spiked for years from this LGS and this was literally the first time they said that they don't have it. This makes it very memorable to me.
See, what makes it memorable for me is buying those Kiki Jikis myself and watching the deck remain utter trash and gimmicky jank to this day.
:laugh: ...... :thinking: ........ :sweat: ........... :cussing: ...................... :(

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

We considered what one would do with the cards from a Splinter Twin deck with Splinter Twin banned. In the case of some Jeskai or Temur, there are very similar decks to build. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement.
Sure sounds to me like they considered what we would do. And that Kiki Jiki would be a replacement. This reads like "We know we're hurting your deck, but look! It can be fine! Just play a Jeskai or Temur control deck! Or use Kiki Jiki instead!" Never mind that those were all effectively unplayable trash for effectively the rest of Modern.

Never mind that Twin itself was below the threshold of every other diversity ban Modern has ever had, and nearly identical to Affinity for that year, but you knew that already.

Shake up the PT + Blake hates Twin + Triple GP top 8 = BAN first, make up reason later. It's not more complicated than this.

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

January 8, 2016, banned at the same time as summer bloom.

Twin did not survive. Kiki-Jiki alone is not good enough.

Bloom Titan survived the ban, and become Amulet Titan. I remember someone at mtgs closed down their thread thinking the deck is dead, but reopened when thread residents requested it be opened again - which is the right move, because the deck is still strong.
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Post by Albegas » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
We considered what one would do with the cards from a Splinter Twin deck with Splinter Twin banned. In the case of some Jeskai or Temur, there are very similar decks to build. In other cases, there is Kiki-Jiki as a replacement.
Sure sounds to me like they considered what we would do. And that Kiki Jiki would be a replacement. This reads like "We know we're hurting your deck, but look! It can be fine! Just play a Jeskai or Temur control deck! Or use Kiki Jiki instead!" Never mind that those were all effectively unplayable trash for effectively the rest of Modern.

Never mind that Twin itself was below the threshold of every other diversity ban Modern has ever had, and nearly identical to Affinity for that year, but you knew that already.

Shake up the PT + Blake hates Twin + Triple GP top 8 = BAN first, make up reason later. It's not more complicated than this.
The really sad part is that the only reasons I got over the Twin ban were because of time and because of the studies that came out well after the ban that hinted that Twin's MWP across the board was about 50%+ for just about everything but Jund, which was still roughly 45% if I recall. I wish for the life of me I could remember who crunched the numbers.

If they had said upfront, "We're banning Twin because its MWP is too good across the board and we're concerned about it overtaking the PT", I'd like to think I would have been way less outraged. Instead we had (at the time) the flimsiest ban criteria invented for the sake of making sure the PT didn't become homogeneous (*insert obligatory lol Eldrazi Aggro comment*).

I wouldn't even bring all of this up if it weren't for the fact that this ties back to WotC's generally bad communication in general over the years. The Mycosynth Lattice ban is a really good example. There's an entire paragraph stating that the "unfun criteria" was not the sole driving factor, but it seems like no one remembers the paragraph because WotC decided to lead with "we're banning this because it's unfun" followed by "no really it's fine, they were too good". How much better would it have been to give us SOME numbers and attempt to convince us that a minor nerf that doesn't change the deck's play patterns was justified? Same with the GGT and Probe bans: giving us something like "the odds of Dredge/Infect winning are x% higher without SB hate within T1-T3" sounds SO much better than "they needed SB hate too quickly, so they need nerfs". This is made even more apparent by the fact that Standard was getting entire essays and data tables when they were hit with bans during Kaladesh. I get that Standard is objectively more important than Modern, but that really doesn't excuse why Devil's Advocates have to do the legwork for WotC to justify decisions that I assume are made with data they already have on hand.

I don't know if this is just some sort of bias on my part, but WotC over the last couple of years seems to really operate on this idea that if they give an excuse for something, we'll just nod our heads and accept regardless of whether or not the excuse is well-explained. I have to really wonder if this notion that the masses will swallow anything led to the current Play Design philosophy that thinks we'll continue to blindly swallow bans even in the 1 format that should NEVER have to worry about bans. I don't need an apology article on Monday, but something, ANYTHING, acknowledging that something's gone wrong with Play Design would give me some piece of mind.

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Post by Ed06288 » 10 months ago

can't say i felt too sorry about channel fireball canceling all their events for 2020. i wish more people would recognize hasbro as being very similar to konami and nintendo and just move on already.

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Post by Simto » 10 months ago

I'm going to gouge my eyes out if you lot keep going on about %$#% Twin.

I hate that lattice got banned because it was awesome in my deck, but you don't hear me go on about it. Move on people, for reals.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 10 months ago

If they banned urza's tower tomorrow and said it was for diversity reasons you might feel differently.

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Simto wrote:
10 months ago
I'm going to gouge my eyes out if you lot keep going on about %$#% Twin.

I hate that lattice got banned because it was awesome in my deck, but you don't hear me go on about it. Move on people, for reals.
You still have a functional and competitive deck without Lattice.

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Post by blkdemonight » 10 months ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
If they banned urza's tower tomorrow and said it was for diversity reasons you might feel differently.
If it did, would it be to diversify colorless decks as the excuse ?

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

blkdemonight wrote:
10 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
If they banned urza's tower tomorrow and said it was for diversity reasons you might feel differently.
If it did, would it be to diversify colorless decks as the excuse ?
That would be dumb. Everyone knows Jegantha, the Wellspring is the correct ban from Tron. :explode: :P
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
If they banned urza's tower tomorrow and said it was for diversity reasons you might feel differently.
Bingo. Same for if Amulet itself had been banned, or Prime Time, same as if Grapeshot had been banned, or Ad Naus.

Lattice didnt remove your deck, you still get to Turn 3 Karn.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
10 months ago
Same if.....Pod was banned??
No, but at least several "replacements" were printed later on. Collected Company Eldritch Evolution

I personally know players that never really recovered from the Pod ban. I had 2 friends that were in the process of foiling it out. I personally enjoy Collected Company more than I enjoyed Pod, which is saying a lot. But I realize that not everyone feels that way. Pod had to be banned because Dork into Pod into K Finks Pod into Siege Rhino by turn 3 made the deck too consistent (in addition to having the toolbox that they always had).
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
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Post by Simto » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Simto wrote:
10 months ago
I'm going to gouge my eyes out if you lot keep going on about %$#% Twin.

I hate that lattice got banned because it was awesome in my deck, but you don't hear me go on about it. Move on people, for reals.
You still have a functional and competitive deck without Lattice.
I don't care, just stop with the %$#% twin talk already. It's crazy how so people keep going on and on and on about it.
I know there's lots of legit troubles with modern, but it's such a huge format, there must be something else to talk about than twin. Come on.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 10 months ago

Pod is a fair comparison on the surface. The difference is that the pod deck remained competitive, which is a real testament to how good that deck was at its peak. The original combo pod decks were replaced near the end with value pod slamming seige rhinos and resto Angels just using pod as a value engine and hunting up silver bullet hate cards when needed. Once pod was banned the deck went through many transitions and deck names, counters company is probably the best well known version in that decks evolution post pod ban. Pod and twin were around at around at the same time and pod was winning much more, so that ban was less contentious or disputed for many reasons.

The twin announcement referencing what would a twin player do with there peices if twin was banned is evidence of the expectation that twin decks would follow a similar evolution, but they were wrong.
Last edited by metalmusic_4 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
Pod is a fair comparison on the surface. The difference is that the pod deck remained competitive. The original combo pod decks were replaced near the end with value pod slamming seige rhinos and resto Angels just using pod as a value engine and hunting up silver bullet hate cards when needed. Once pod was banned the deck went through many transitions and deck names, counters company is probably the best well known version in that decks evolution post pod ban.

The twin announcement referencing what would a twin player do with there peices if twin was banned is evidence of the expectation that twin decks would follow a similar evolution, but they were wrong.
To be fair, I don't think that everyone knew what would happen. I felt like Kiki was a solid replacement and I thought my Amulet deck was dead with Summer Bloom banned. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is so much slower. I was seriously pissed at the time. :fuming:

But then I didn't realize I'd get OUaT for a bit, Field of the Dead, and Dryad of Ilysian Grove, lol.
Last edited by FoodChainGoblins 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Simto wrote:
10 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Simto wrote:
10 months ago
I'm going to gouge my eyes out if you lot keep going on about %$#% Twin.

I hate that lattice got banned because it was awesome in my deck, but you don't hear me go on about it. Move on people, for reals.
You still have a functional and competitive deck without Lattice.
I don't care, just stop with the %$#% twin talk already. It's crazy how so people keep going on and on and on about it.
I know there's lots of legit troubles with modern, but it's such a huge format, there must be something else to talk about than twin. Come on.
It's clear you don't understand the animosity Twin players have about the situation, and why it's still such an issue to this day.

No one is making you engage in that part of the conversation. If you have nothing to add, then don't. Ignore it and address other topics.

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Post by Simto » 10 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Simto wrote:
10 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago

You still have a functional and competitive deck without Lattice.
I don't care, just stop with the %$#% twin talk already. It's crazy how so people keep going on and on and on about it.
I know there's lots of legit troubles with modern, but it's such a huge format, there must be something else to talk about than twin. Come on.
It's clear you don't understand the animosity Twin players have about the situation, and why it's still such an issue to this day.

No one is making you engage in that part of the conversation. If you have nothing to add, then don't. Ignore it and address other topics.
It's been years dude

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Just put people on "ignore" so you don't have to see posts. I know it can get repetitive. I realize that people want to talk about something else. I spammed this forum with some posts a short bit ago, but I felt that there wasn't really much to talk about at the time.

I think at this point, most Modern players agree that power creep has happened way too quickly from 2019 and forward. That needs to be dialed down a lot. It looks like WotC is going to change the way Companion works, so hopefully that is a good solution. Some believe Arcum's Astrolabe and/or Veil of Summer should eat a ban - there is room for discussion there. Some people want further cards banned and there's room for discussion there and finally, some (ME) want some cards unbanned. :D
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Simto wrote:
10 months ago
cfusionpm wrote:
10 months ago
Simto wrote:
10 months ago


I don't care, just stop with the %$#% twin talk already. It's crazy how so people keep going on and on and on about it.
I know there's lots of legit troubles with modern, but it's such a huge format, there must be something else to talk about than twin. Come on.
It's clear you don't understand the animosity Twin players have about the situation, and why it's still such an issue to this day.

No one is making you engage in that part of the conversation. If you have nothing to add, then don't. Ignore it and address other topics.
It's been years dude
Please reread what you quoted of me, and kindly stop engaging then.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 10 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
10 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
10 months ago
Pod is a fair comparison on the surface. The difference is that the pod deck remained competitive. The original combo pod decks were replaced near the end with value pod slamming seige rhinos and resto Angels just using pod as a value engine and hunting up silver bullet hate cards when needed. Once pod was banned the deck went through many transitions and deck names, counters company is probably the best well known version in that decks evolution post pod ban.

The twin announcement referencing what would a twin player do with there peices if twin was banned is evidence of the expectation that twin decks would follow a similar evolution, but they were wrong.
To be fair, I don't think that everyone knew what would happen. I felt like Kiki was a solid replacement and I thought my Amulet deck was dead with Summer Bloom banned. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is so much slower. I was seriously pissed at the time. :fuming:

But then I didn't realize I'd get OUaT for a bit, Field of the Dead, and Dryad of Ilysian Grove, lol.
Sure, I agree with that. Nobody can predict the future perfectly. The announcement even gave some ideas of other decks to try or use kiki-jiki so they seem to have fully expected the deck to exist in some weakened form, like pod did, like jund did or amulet went on to do.

However the twin ban followed in the footsteps of the wild nacatl zoo ban instead and killed the deck entirly. In the wild nacatl UNBAN announcement they acknowledged that its ban did not cause the development they wanted, it killed the deck entirely and therefore they decided to unban it.

And thinking about it now, I remember the nacatl ban as being very contentious too. Some thought it too powerful and invalidated many other 1 drops while others fiercely stated it as a vanilla 3/3 and had no business on the ban list. BBE might qualify as another controversial ban, anyway there have been a few of these in the past.

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