[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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drmarkb
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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Btw Ikoria survey is out. Do what must be done. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is fine on Legacy. Back to being a board card, and if Labe goes it gets worse.
Modern needs action, but as I have said before many times, it won't be enough, and bans alone can not do it, unless you are talking about rebooting a new and similar format.. Even then, the day they banned lattice was a bad sign. Blood moon, teferi, lattice, chalice are all fine in any older format in power terms, and once you ban on fun, your format is no longer a serious format.
Second Sunrise was in part banned on fun, that's been a criteria for a while.

Edit: Meant KCI not Second Sunrise.
Last edited by Aazadan 10 months ago, edited 1 time in total.

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The Fluff
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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

That's a long survey. Completed at last.

Answered positively to most of the questions.
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
10 months ago
That's a long survey. Completed at last.

Answered positively to most of the questions.
Bless your heart Fluff.

I eviscerated them.
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Post by Albegas » 10 months ago

I was ready to be harsh, but looking at the survey questions, there are elements of Ikoria that are actually really neat. I personally like the monster designs, the Godzilla promo cards are really cool (Death Corona thing aside), and Mutate is a neat mechanic even if it's not really seeing play in Modern. Unless something's totally slipping my mind, Companion's the only major failure within just Ikoria. Now if this were a broader survey on recent sets in general, I'd have likely been less kind

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
10 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Veil is fine on Legacy. Back to being a board card, and if Labe goes it gets worse.
Modern needs action, but as I have said before many times, it won't be enough, and bans alone can not do it, unless you are talking about rebooting a new and similar format.. Even then, the day they banned lattice was a bad sign. Blood moon, teferi, lattice, chalice are all fine in any older format in power terms, and once you ban on fun, your format is no longer a serious format.
Second Sunrise was in part banned on fun, that's been a criteria for a while.
Banned on time taken to finish- the enjoyment of players not in the match- not enjoyment of the match itself. the statement was explicit on this.

Explanation of May 3, 2013, B&R Changes

Modern tournaments have recently been diverse, with no dominant deck. However, large tournaments have had a problem with the Eggs deck, causing rounds to take significantly longer.

The deck uses Second Sunrise and Faith's Reward to get back cards that generate mana, such as Lotus Bloom, and various artifacts that draw a card. A common choice to win the game is Pyrite Spellbomb. However, the way the player gets to the point of forcing a win might involve casting Second Sunrise so many times that the entire library is drawn, and only cards put back with Conjurer's Bauble are left. A single turn might take fifteen minutes or more.

In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games.
However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament.

The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern.

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Post by The Fluff » 10 months ago

@idSurge

having fun with their new set. Liking the Ikoria story about the people who bond with animals.
So I can only give a positive response to wotc. :)

Also excited to get my hands on Kaheera, Yorion, and Obosh cards. Image
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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

The Bonder stuff should have been the main focus for sure.

I love Yidaro. :D
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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Banned on time taken to finish- the enjoyment of players not in the match- not enjoyment of the match itself. the statement was explicit on this.
Whoops, got it mixed up, sorry. I'm going to edit my previous post.

The card I meant was KCI (it was also part of eggs, hence my brain getting it mixed up, though it wasn't banned due to eggs).
Games with Krark-Clan Ironworks can often involve excessively arcane rules interactions using mana ability timing windows, the understanding of which are necessary for players to agree on the game state. This can create a barrier to entry to Modern for players playing against the deck and to those who would feel obligated to play with it because of its strong win rate. We're sensitive to community feedback that the combination of polarized matchups, complex interactions, and long turns can lead to unenjoyable gameplay and viewing experiences.
Granted, they used the words unenjoyable gameplay rather than unfun, but the context is clear.

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Post by pierreb » 10 months ago

I'm pretty sure people (to stay vague... :) ) are over-reading the fact that they used address.

IMO, they use that formula because they did not want to tip their hand and and it allows them to change course if needed between their pre-announcement and the announcement. Unlike other past announcements, there is a serious discussion about changing the companion mechanics in the social media, so any other way to phrase their pre-announcement would have leaked their intentions in advance.

Do we have example of past pre-announcements wording about rule changes, like when they changed how PW unicity worked, how legendary worked, etc? I don't remember.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
10 months ago
drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
Banned on time taken to finish- the enjoyment of players not in the match- not enjoyment of the match itself. the statement was explicit on this.
Whoops, got it mixed up, sorry. I'm going to edit my previous post.

The card I meant was KCI (it was also part of eggs, hence my brain getting it mixed up, though it wasn't banned due to eggs).
Games with Krark-Clan Ironworks can often involve excessively arcane rules interactions using mana ability timing windows, the understanding of which are necessary for players to agree on the game state. This can create a barrier to entry to Modern for players playing against the deck and to those who would feel obligated to play with it because of its strong win rate. We're sensitive to community feedback that the combination of polarized matchups, complex interactions, and long turns can lead to unenjoyable gameplay and viewing experiences.
Granted, they used the words unenjoyable gameplay rather than unfun, but the context is clear.
I always got the impression from that announcement and other statements that it was about the lack of understanding of the rules- we had a banding scenario- when they asked a number of early top players about scenarios involving banding, it turned out that they almost to a player could not get the correct answers, hence they junked banding. The issue here was that very few got the deck's intricate timing rules, plenty of pros did not at first, and it really did (if we are honest) abuse the rules - the "unfun" play pattern being down to the endless judge calls at PTQs and the like. It is noticible for both SS and KCI the "long turns" was mentioned. It was not the first deck to abuse rules, if you go back to wall of roots and sands of time in standard, a deck got infinite mana "between turns". At one event the ruling was "don't allow this combo", without any reasoning why- there was none at the time- and they fixed it very soon after by rewording time vault, so that there was no "between turns "step- the then current wording on Time Vault being the reason a "between steps" existed. The fix here to ban KCI was easier, as the mana windows would have been a nightmare to reword. Had they done so people could "respond" intuitively and get the desired result, instead of finding they could not respond in the mid combo. The wording implies several factors against KCI, I can't remember lattice, but it seemed more clear cut.

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Post by Aazadan » 10 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
10 months ago
The wording implies several factors against KCI, I can't remember lattice, but it seemed more clear cut.
It was, it just wasn't the only time fun was a consideration.

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Post by drmarkb » 10 months ago

Fair enough. It was the question as to whether unfun was the turns, the rules abuse or the lack of understanding, or the actual play patterns. I am fine on banning on the first two. They are unfun. The play patterns- I got locked out- I am not.

On Ikoria. I gave them the lowest score for any set, and the most vituperative comments.
I am primarily a drafter, and I hate battlecruiser MTG, and I hate limited formats with a clear best deck. I have a personal loathing for Godzilla, and I don't like extened art (although the comic style was quite good). I dislike everything being about creatures and combat in constructed, had no cards I wanted at all, and object to pushed cards, especially creatures and walkers,and dislike companion on priciple. I dislike counters (the noun) in limited too. I am not happy with "it is not for you" for reprint sets (as opposed to collector boosters). You can imagine how much grief I gave them.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

The Fluff wrote:
10 months ago
idSurge

having fun with their new set. Liking the Ikoria story about the people who bond with animals.
So I can only give a positive response to wotc. :)

Also excited to get my hands on Kaheera, Yorion, and Obosh cards. Image
Even if they're broken, I wouldn't have minded playing with Companions for a few weeks. Unfortunately by the time paper starts for me, the Companion rule will already have been changed. I should have just not bought any Ikoria, but I kind of thought I'd like to keep some Companions in a binder for collection purposes of a "time gone very wrong."

I was kind of happy to buy Lukka too because I want to play the Planebound Accomplice deck, even if the upcoming Obosh change is going to hurt. I just wonder how they're going to do the change since Lurrus and Yorion are SOOOO far ahead in power level than the others?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by Simto » 10 months ago

Am I the only one who didn't answer anything on the last page of questions in the survey? It was so ridiculous.

Anyway, I said modern was my favourite format. Hope a lot of people ask did too hehe.

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Post by Albegas » 10 months ago

Simto wrote:
10 months ago
Am I the only one who didn't answer anything on the last page of questions in the survey? It was so ridiculous.

Anyway, I said modern was my favourite format. Hope a lot of people ask did too hehe.
I skipped it too. Power to them if they want to think about and support anyone trying to solve the world's problems, but players shouldn't be dictating those priorities IMO.

And yeah, I still listed Modern as my favorite format, even with the trials and tribulations of the last year or so.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 10 months ago

Albegas wrote:
10 months ago
Simto wrote:
10 months ago
Am I the only one who didn't answer anything on the last page of questions in the survey? It was so ridiculous.

Anyway, I said modern was my favourite format. Hope a lot of people ask did too hehe.
I skipped it too. Power to them if they want to think about and support anyone trying to solve the world's problems, but players shouldn't be dictating those priorities IMO.

And yeah, I still listed Modern as my favorite format, even with the trials and tribulations of the last year or so.
That sentence describes my exact feelings.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by cfusionpm » 10 months ago

Albegas wrote:
10 months ago
And yeah, I still listed Modern as my favorite format, even with the trials and tribulations of the last year or so.
I love Modern, and I want to continue loving Modern. I feel the damage done from the last two years aren't even directly tied to the uptick of awful gameplay patterns, but just a constant looming fear and uncertainty. A persistent threat of disruption and destruction of any deck at any time. Either by being supplanted or pushed out from the powerful new printings, or by being the beneficiary of those pushed cards wondering when the next ban is coming for my deck.

At least you can plan to tune your deck and board to play against terrible decks. You can't plan or sideboard against losing your deck or having it effectively made irrelevant without constant, several-hundred-dollar upgrades. And that is an absolutely terrible place to be in what is supposed to be a "premiere non-rotating format."

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

I still put Modern, because they dont seem to understand the continued relevance of the format.

I absolutely wrote some long responses when given the option, because they need to understand the damage they are doing to the game at this point.
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Post by Tzoulis » 10 months ago

idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
The Bonder stuff should have been the main focus for sure.
I mean it kinda is... What do you think Companions are? :p

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Post by Guardman » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
The Bonder stuff should have been the main focus for sure.
I mean it kinda is... What do you think Companions are? :p
It took me a second to realize that you are correct. I think that shows at least one of the issues with companion. It is so overwhelming that until you pointed it out I had completely forgotten it was supposed to invoke being a bonder.

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Tzoulis wrote:
10 months ago
idSurge wrote:
10 months ago
The Bonder stuff should have been the main focus for sure.
I mean it kinda is... What do you think Companions are? :p
Pokemon.

The Bonder mechanic actually was reinforced in the Commander release, with very little in the Standard set itself.

This is what I am referring to.

https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&ord ... +set%3Ac20

And things like

https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle%3A ... order=name

The mechanical and thematic link between the Humans and Creatures.

Companion was nothing about that. Companion mechanically is just an abomination, but thematically, I can see what you are getting at.
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Post by True-Name Nemesis » 10 months ago

Amalgam wrote:
10 months ago
See as much as people ask in these threads for them to ban Astrolabe I honestly don't think they will do it in either Modern or Legacy simply for the fact that it allows cheaper manabases. There's quite a few cards you could bane before banning Astrolabe anyway
Not true for Legacy if you wanted to play an optimal mana base.

Astrolabe didn't impact affordability of heavy dual land requirement decks like delver, and actually made decks that where light on dual lands start running more.

Case in point being pre-astrolabe UW Miracles for example running 2 dual lands max. 1 Tundra + 1 volcanic (for SB REB and Pyroblast) builds were extremely common. Now the norm for a typical Yorion Miracles list runs 3-5 dual lands in addition to 4 Astrolabes and 4 Abundant growths. Lurrus control decks while it was still legal also ran an minimum of 3 dual lands.

This is not new to companions meta, Miracles had started adding a tropical island in addition to 4 Astrolabes to support Oko when Throne was released.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 10 months ago

Rasmussen appears to have resolved the lingering and scattered anxieties about companion not actually changing. It won't just be a statement. The mechanic is getting a facelift. Good decision and I am glad they made it clear going into the weekend.

Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010

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Post by idSurge » 10 months ago

Thats disappointing. Bridge from Beyond v2 incoming.
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