[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

The fact that Lurrus was designed without even checking ban and restricted lists before release is absurd.

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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

Imagine if Snapcaster Mage had text that said you could give flashback every turn. And instead of exiling, it put the card *back* in the yard to repeat. That's Lurrus. A card that is *already* tremendously powerful before you even get to the absurdity of having unilateral (and discard-proof) access to it at the start of the game. Like Companions are already borderline as is, but give a companion abilities like this? How in the world did anyone ever think this was ok?

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

cfusionpm wrote:
1 year ago
Imagine if Snapcaster Mage had text that said you could give flashback every turn. And instead of exiling, it put the card *back* in the yard to repeat. That's Lurrus. A card that is *already* tremendously powerful before you even get to the absurdity of having unilateral (and discard-proof) access to it at the start of the game. Like Companions are already borderline as is, but give a companion abilities like this? How in the world did anyone ever think this was ok?
'Throne is the power level we wanted.'

Its not about these cards being 'fine'. They are pushed on purpose, and we all know that they dont consider eternal formats for balance/design purposes. At all. Not 'maybe they consider' it. Not 'what if this is an issue'.

Yawgmoths Will. They printed a better version.

The sooner you stop thinking they are even trying on the balance side, the better off you will feel. They are not trying, based on what 'balance' is after 25 years, in the least.

That said, anyone looking for a fresh environment to play around in (spoilers, Lukka Fires is the best deck and its not close, but whatever) Historic on Arena is pretty fun to burn time on. I have missed sucking the life out of my opponent with Search + Teferi.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
Its not about these cards being 'fine'. They are pushed on purpose, and we all know that they dont consider eternal formats for balance/design purposes. At all. Not 'maybe they consider' it. Not 'what if this is an issue'.

Yawgmoths Will. They printed a better version.

The sooner you stop thinking they are even trying on the balance side, the better off you will feel. They are not trying, based on what 'balance' is after 25 years, in the least.
I agree this is important to realize. Wizards has stopped trying to print balanced cards in any traditional sense of the word "balanced." There are other motives guiding their design decisions. Anyone who doubts this need only look at the outrageous string of multi-formats bans that have even clobbered Standard over the last year. Plus the more that are virtually guaranteed to come in 2020 (and have already happened!). Once people realize this problem, we can stop asking "How did they think this was balanced?" and start asking "What is the fundamentally broken process behind these unbalanced designs?"
That said, anyone looking for a fresh environment to play around in (spoilers, Lukka Fires is the best deck and its not close, but whatever) Historic on Arena is pretty fun to burn time on. I have missed sucking the life out of my opponent with Search + Teferi.
I highly suspect this format is secretly solved with maybe 2-3 best decks that are heads and shoulders above the rest. Incidentally, those decks would probably be based around busted, new, decidedly unbalanced designs. But without MTGO data to assess the format and without too many major events, it feels less busted and solved right now. This will change in the next few weeks as everyone switches to Historic on a prayer that it's a refuge from every other format's problems. In fact, it's probably already known in many circles: Naya Winota, Jeskai Lukka, and some Gx Ulamog ramp deck are just probably at the tippy-top with everything floundering in Tier 3.
Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago


Is this supposed to be diverse?
Of course that's not diverse. This is the exact same problem I cited in my Week 3 meta update: a very dangerous Rx Aggro hegemony. It's just gotten worse as we've iterated to the best Prowess variant while we still see a bunch of other traditional Prowess and Burn players paddling around too. That's why Burn and Prowess are now 19.5% of the format, and why I've been sounding that alarm bell since Week 3. Remember: URx Delver was 17.5%ish when TC got banned.

I can't even name too many people that are really defending Modern Lurrus at this point. It's horrifically broken by virtually all measures I can think of: individual prevalence (51.2% of top-tier decks!!), dominance of Lurrus decks (4 of our top 5 decks are Lurrus decks), repetitive play patterns, homogenization of card choices, etc. It's not just a dumpster fire. It's a landfill inferno. It's a West Coast wildfire. The only thing I think anyone is seriously debating in the circles I follow is: what's the solution? Hence the six scenarios I posed on a previous page.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Its an embarrassment, but just another in a years long (actual factual years!) chain of them.
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
"What is the fundamentally broken process behind these unbalanced designs?"
This.

And this.
ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
I highly suspect this format is secretly solved with maybe 2-3 best decks that are heads and shoulders above the rest. Incidentally, those decks would probably be based around busted, new, decidedly unbalanced designs. But without MTGO data to assess the format and without too many major events, it feels less busted and solved right now. This will change in the next few weeks as everyone switches to Historic on a prayer that it's a refuge from every other format's problems. In fact, it's probably already known in many circles: Naya Winota, Jeskai Lukka, and some Gx Ulamog ramp deck are just probably at the tippy-top with everything floundering in Tier 3.
Which is totally fine, as long as I'm not running into it enough. I do believe you can also spike those decks with the Ux tempo builds floating around, and I've absolutely been dead on board by my 3rd turn on the draw against burn because of the shock mana base.

Can aggro keep the top in check? Doubt. Is it still fun enough? Yeah, its fine.

Ultimately you and I both know that Magic as it stands, across every format but Vintage, needs bans.

I think its time for another tweet at the trio. :p

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
1 year ago
Of course that's not diverse. This is the exact same problem I cited in my Week 3 meta update: a very dangerous Rx Aggro hegemony. It's just gotten worse as we've iterated to the best Prowess variant while we still see a bunch of other traditional Prowess and Burn players paddling around too. That's why Burn and Prowess are now 19.5% of the format, and why I've been sounding that alarm bell since Week 3. Remember: URx Delver was 17.5%ish when TC got banned.

I can't even name too many people that are really defending Modern Lurrus at this point. It's horrifically broken by virtually all measures I can think of: individual prevalence (51.2% of top-tier decks!!), dominance of Lurrus decks (4 of our top 5 decks are Lurrus decks), repetitive play patterns, homogenization of card choices, etc. It's not just a dumpster fire. It's a landfill inferno. It's a West Coast wildfire. The only thing I think anyone is seriously debating in the circles I follow is: what's the solution? Hence the six scenarios I posed on a previous page.
I watch a lot of streams nowadays (ever since Covid-19 and quarantining) and there are a lot of Streamers that defend Lurrus. I even have seen some that defend it while stating that other cards on the ban list are definitely not fine and more warping than Lurrus. :dizzy:

I am literally at a point where I don't know if I am not in touch with reality or some of the smartest minds and best players in the game have some serious judgment flaws (regarding mtg ofc). I can understand being okay with it because you're winning. I have been like that at times, UR Delver w/ TC for example. But actually saying that the meta is fine is clearly something else. Like others have said, clearer minds like Reid Duke and others have been a bit perturbed by this state of the meta. That says something and should be a HUUUUGE sign to WotC. Players that never say anything bad about WotC, but have doubts about this current meta...

This is how I would rank all time warped metagames in Modern.
1. Lurrus
2. Eldrazi Winter
3. Hogaak
4. Oko
5. Cruise/Pod

Everything else pales in comparison. #1 is not acceptable.

*Regarding banned cards, I'm at the point where I'd rather see if the card is as busted as some want to pray that it is. So what, Green Sun's Zenith leads to a metagame of turn 0 and turn 1 wins? Let's see, since the proof really IS in the pudding. Everyone's theorycrafting, since a lot has changed in Modern in 4-9 years, is just that. That includes mine. I could be wrong about Preordain, Twin, GSZ, Punishing Fire. Maybe some of them do break Modern? Let's see.
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Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I watch a lot of streams nowadays (ever since Covid-19 and quarantining) and there are a lot of Streamers that defend Lurrus. I even have seen some that defend it while stating that other cards on the ban list are definitely not fine and more warping than Lurrus.

I am literally at a point where I don't know if I am not in touch with reality or some of the smartest minds and best players in the game have some serious judgment flaws (regarding mtg ofc). I can understand being okay with it because you're winning. I have been like that at times, UR Delver w/ TC for example. But actually saying that the meta is fine is clearly something else. Like others have said, clearer minds like Reid Duke and others have been a bit perturbed by this state of the meta. That says something and should be a HUUUUGE sign to WotC. Players that never say anything bad about WotC, but have doubts about this current meta...

This is how I would rank all time warped metagames in Modern.
1. Lurrus
2. Eldrazi Winter
3. Hogaak
4. Oko
5. Cruise/Pod

Everything else pales in comparison. #1 is not acceptable.
Grinders can/will defend it because they literally dont care what the meta is, as long as the deck fits their desire to stomp faces.

People defend Eldrazi, Hogaak, and Oko, because they dont care if they are playing mirrors, they care if they are winning all the time.

1. There is no way to defend Lurrus in the face of balance, or diversity. I dont care what anyone says. I dont care if they win a lot. I dont care who says it.

Lurrus is not balanced, the meta is not diverse, and the card is a cosmic level mistake.

2. There is also no defending the Lukka/Fires travesty in Standard. Its a huge joke, but again lets look at the important part that ktk called out.

3. "What is the fundamentally broken process behind these unbalanced designs?"

They have given up on designing and developing (its 2+ teams!!!!) balanced, and fun additions to the game of Magic.

Everything is grotesquely OP, or you are literally giving away % points just because you would rather not play it. I COULD play Esper Yorion, but %$#% it, I dont want to. I COULD play Lukka/Fires, but %$#% it, and %$#% those who decided to print those cards.

Its time we stop accepting that what some grinders have to say has any more validity than the rest of us, who just want an actually diverse and balanced meta.

Like you know, the one we had back before Eldrazi.

In the interests of Competitive Diversity.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I watch a lot of streams nowadays (ever since Covid-19 and quarantining) and there are a lot of Streamers that defend Lurrus. I even have seen some that defend it while stating that other cards on the ban list are definitely not fine and more warping than Lurrus.

I am literally at a point where I don't know if I am not in touch with reality or some of the smartest minds and best players in the game have some serious judgment flaws (regarding mtg ofc). I can understand being okay with it because you're winning. I have been like that at times, UR Delver w/ TC for example. But actually saying that the meta is fine is clearly something else. Like others have said, clearer minds like Reid Duke and others have been a bit perturbed by this state of the meta. That says something and should be a HUUUUGE sign to WotC. Players that never say anything bad about WotC, but have doubts about this current meta...

This is how I would rank all time warped metagames in Modern.
1. Lurrus
2. Eldrazi Winter
3. Hogaak
4. Oko
5. Cruise/Pod

Everything else pales in comparison. #1 is not acceptable.
Grinders can/will defend it because they literally dont care what the meta is, as long as the deck fits their desire to stomp faces.

People defend Eldrazi, Hogaak, and Oko, because they dont care if they are playing mirrors, they care if they are winning all the time.


1. There is no way to defend Lurrus in the face of balance, or diversity. I dont care what anyone says. I dont care if they win a lot. I dont care who says it.

Lurrus is not balanced, the meta is not diverse, and the card is a cosmic level mistake.

2. There is also no defending the Lukka/Fires travesty in Standard. Its a huge joke, but again lets look at the important part that ktk called out.

3. "What is the fundamentally broken process behind these unbalanced designs?"

They have given up on designing and developing (its 2+ teams!!!!) balanced, and fun additions to the game of Magic.

Everything is grotesquely OP, or you are literally giving away % points just because you would rather not play it. I COULD play Esper Yorion, but %$#% it, I dont want to. I COULD play Lukka/Fires, but %$#% it, and %$#% those who decided to print those cards.

Its time we stop accepting that what some grinders have to say has any more validity than the rest of us, who just want an actually diverse and balanced meta.

Like you know, the one we had back before Eldrazi.

In the interests of Competitive Diversity.
I understand this and I think this is why it's hard to read people online. For stuff like Eldrazi and Hogaak, I very, very rarely saw anyone defend it or think it was all right. Those who did were obviously trolling or didn't know or care about the format. I played what wins and I can see how %$#% up it is. But you play what WotC lets you play, even if it's that far above anything else in that format.

I can read people a bit more in person. Online, I have to just watch their body language in a chair while talking to a lot of people. I have no idea how to read Edgar Magalhaes and many of his subscribers that believe Lurrus/Yorion are okay, but "not named" is a messed up card.

*On a completely unrelated note, I think that mastering mirrors is a huge part of success in mtg. I used to love playing the Control mirrors in Standard because I played Control all the time, so I had a grasp on it. But I didn't know how to play other archetypes. When I started playing other archetypes, I hated mirrors with a passion. It wasn't until Standard UW Delver that I started to really love playing mirrors. I don't think I won more than 60% of those Delver mirrors (there's some good Delver players out there!), but I took pride in believing that I knew what was important to win and put aside any feelings of luck or variance. But I obviously know that you're getting at us having a diverse Modern so mirrors are not commonplace. :grin:
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Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I'll take 'mastering the mirror and a wide meta' as more skillful than 'know 3 decks, while having a 60% deck win rate (lukka)'.

I got blocked by one of the SCG guys, because I called him out over his preference for decks like Lurrus in Modern. I dont care who it is, anyone defending the game right now doesnt know wtf they are talking about, and it's a path that leads to the game going into a crater.
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Post by Amalgam » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago

That said, if you are looking an alternative to Modern, I agree with idSurge that Historic is one. I would also add Pioneer, but I get that until it makes it's way through arena(that will probably need 6 months to a year to incorporate all those sets), we can wait.
What makes you think it will take 6-12 months? Have you seen wizards current track record on arena with implementing anything outside the newest standard set? Pioneer being completely on arena is years away. This is even taking into account Pioneer masters that is meant to be happening later this year.
Not to mention Pioneer's popularity has plumped since it's honeymoon period wore off. Pioneer's crowd on reddit are just as much doomsayers as the people in this thread are about modern.

Don't get me wrong Modern is in trouble at the moment but this is more to do with Magic as a whole and not really knowing what it wants to be or do at the moment. Magic is just in a really %$#% place right now regardless of what format you want to play

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Post by DarthDrac » 1 year ago

Companions are worse than Hogaak or Eldrazi, in my opinion.

While Hogaak or the Eldrazi decks could mulligan relatively well, they could still end up keeping an iffy 5. That never happens with a Companion. WotC's new design philosophy; F.I.R.E. (fun, inviting, replayable, and exciting) clearly isn't being used in a sensible way. The standard or modern metas aren't fun, inviting or replayable, while they might be exciting for the player winning, I have my doubts, unless all that matters to you is winning. Maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way, I'm not against a meme deck, I played Hollow One for example, but when I fire up Arena I dread Winota/Agent, Lukka/Agent, T3feri, Fires, Wilderness even Gyruda, which should appeal to me... Best of one means if you prepare for those matchups, you are hosed against aggro. When I look at the standard meta I sigh, modern is worse, there just isn't space for fun...

Remember Izzet Phoenix, that deck was fair (and fun) compared to the mess since, it probably isn't even playable today, even if Faithless Looting wasn't banned, since the deck can't slot in a Companion, okay, maybe Jegantha? I saw a green tron list testing Jegantha, TRON, I mean seriously. My last game with paper was with Ninjas, I'm a fan of tempo decks but not I win buttons (Twin), Companions feel like an I win button.

Magic is still a great game, but, yeah, WotC need to print better answers. Here is what I mean, push answers to the same level as threats; Drannith Magistrate, the Companion "answer", a 1/3 that says "Your opponents can't cast spells from anywhere other than their hands." for 1 and a white. This doesn't cut it. First, lets make it cost only colourless mana, next make it a 1/5 (lava coil is in standard), it might be close to usable at that point, might. Now that isn't a fun card, discard isn't fun, nor are decent 2 mana counterspells, in the WotC definition of fun anyway, but the game needs these things as checks and balances.

Anyway off to grind through my daily rewards on arena, giving the sad face whenever the feedback button appears, win or lose.

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Post by Aazadan » 1 year ago

DarthDrac wrote:
1 year ago
Magic is still a great game, but, yeah, WotC need to print better answers. Here is what I mean, push answers to the same level as threats

As much as I love a good threats vs answers debate, I don't think it's accurate in the case of companions. Companions have been at their most warping in the formats with the best answers. In formats where people get up to 4 Force of Will, 4 Force of Negation, 4 Force of Vigor, Swords to Plowshares, and so on companions still did more than the format could handle. Think about it. The more answers a format has had, the more dominant companions have been.

Know why? Because those answers also all function as ways to protect your companions. Unless we want to start making the argument that it's healthy for Magic to have threats that require answers stronger than cards like Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares to stop bad things from happening, then we should instead consider that companions are simply too good.

I think it's kind of absurd honestly to start making the argument that we need better answers when the answers in Vintage and Legacy aren't enough to deal with these things.

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Post by drmarkb » 1 year ago

I think we are complaining that Wotc are doing what they said they would do- increasing revenues from Mtg. There are 4 standard sets a year. How did do you think they are going to increase revenues? By making 8 similar power sets a year? No, that is too obvious and leads to Standard players quitting very, very quickly. No, it is more reprints, more jump starts, more commander products, more masters, more secret lairs, more premium varieties of regular boosters (and I selfishly hope collector booster buyers complain until they leave the game poor and disillusioned with over saturated premium versions of yesterday's hot banlist- they can all quit whining and sod off because they screw the ev of regular boosters for drafters).
How does design figure in this? Well the groups who spend least on Mtg are a certain type of casual EDH player and eternal players. How do you get them to buy? Aim at them for design- more big monster Legendary creatures in the former case, and more pushed threats and no tools to deal with them in the latter, preferably hitting both targets if you can. People may quit the game, but it will be gradual, like erosion of rocks.
The perfect endgame for WOTC- 3 years of increased profits, and when the profits take a downturn the people making the decisions now won't take the blame, that is not how business works. Someone else comes in with hollow corporate bull about streamlining and core customers, and they start again. The bad news? Conpetetive mtg players are interested a small pc of cards, they pulled mtg as a competitive endeavour five years ago, it is not coming back regardless of if they row back from the current positions, unless they lose the commander players, which looks unlikely.
They said that they did not like the ELO rankings because they incentivised non playing at times, but they also did something else- crudely and not particularly accurately ranked people by ability, which was great for a tiny pc of players. So it became pwps, a loyalty card that removed ranking by ability. Even that was too much ranking, it excluded the key demographic.
It filters down from the top. Competitive mtg is old news. Game over, they can't make as much money from competitive types as casuals.
The pro players playing the game are not the best in the world in some kind of crude order, they are carefully selected to represent the world, still outstanding players but not the 'strict best'. They are promotional players designed to promote the game. Mtg is not a sport in the way pro sports are run, it is not interested in the very best to maximise results in the way athletic sports clubs live and die by results and crowds. It is interested in sales of packs, and that means a design that pushes threats. Balanced environments for competitive play - in any constructed format- are a long way down the list of priorities, let alone eternal formats or Modern. Even if they do row back from Companion etc., their design mantra is here to stay- no answers, no idea what to do with white, pushed threats etc. Modern just happens to suffer more, not by design but accident as it had a card pool that is huge with fewer answers. The bad news, if every Modern to Vintage player left, it won't upset them one iota. There will always be Pioneer players and some newer players are of the mentality that any answer is '%$#%$#%' because that is how they designed mtg for them- play down your threat, play whatever mana you like and limit your opponent's chances to interact profitably preemptively with Bridges, Blood Moons, etc., make the game full of lay this/kill that until someone stalls for a turn and the game runs away.

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Post by blkdemonight » 1 year ago

One of the linked tweets complaining about blood moon and chalice. They are either oblivious to what cards make those 2 seem op or hate the idea of counterplay.

As for collector boosters I'm fine with them since I don't draft at all. My problem they are releasing collector boosters with too many premium products at any given time.

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

DarthDrac wrote:
1 year ago
Magic is still a great game, but, yeah, WotC need to print better answers. Here is what I mean, push answers to the same level as threats; Drannith Magistrate, the Companion "answer", a 1/3 that says "Your opponents can't cast spells from anywhere other than their hands." for 1 and a white. This doesn't cut it. First, lets make it cost only colourless mana, next make it a 1/5 (lava coil is in standard), it might be close to usable at that point, might. Now that isn't a fun card, discard isn't fun, nor are decent 2 mana counterspells, in the WotC definition of fun anyway, but the game needs these things as checks and balances.
Answers, are not the path forward, because you get to a point where the only answer, is some kind of Stasis.

This discussion took place a long time ago, I think it was on MTGS but eventually formats will devolve to a state where decks become Xerox, and Control becomes Prison.

Thats the final end game of a format.

Modern cannot be 'saved' with Answers. Magic really cannot be turned around with Answers.

The are only, literally only, 2 things that can improve the path which the game is on now.

1. Wide spread bans across near every single format to undo the damage of the last 2 years.
2. Fundamental review and revert of whatever Design/Development changes resulted in post Khans of Tarkir process.

Nothing else will improve the game. The current path is untenable.

EDIT: And thats to say nothing of the Organized Play issues. Pro players have become nothing but shills, or those riding out their contracts, but the reality post-covid is that there is very very little hope to see paper GP's again. Just not happening. You think 'con-crud' got people sick before? lol.
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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
I kind of agree? Like I said, I believe Modern has it's way (and it's card pool) to only inflate those problems. The cards I mentioned, now it's Mishra's Bauble, make every busted card, feel more busted, like in any other format.

&TLDR: All formats are in trouble. Magic is in trouble. But out of all the formats, Modern is in 2x the trouble and the format is a "extremely bad format, while every other format is not much fun. In my books, I can't equate the "not much fun" with "extremely bad".

I have also heard people in here calling it a "dumbster fire", but I won't be so extreme, because it's not right to do so.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Pioneer as an acceptable alternative to Modern. Every time you frame this as a "format X is better than / less broken than format Y" issue, Wizards wins. This framing tricks players into believing Magic's problems are format-specific, not part of a fundamental break in how Wizards designs all cards and manages all formats. Wizards is probably loving the hype around Historic over the last week because it distracts everyone from the multi-format disaster they have created. Never mind that Historic, like every other format including Pioneer and Modern, is secretly/not-so-secretly solved by a few broken decks centered around a few broken, new design mistakes. Wizards doesn't want us to believe that. They would be ecstatic if we all believed Modern was a uniquely broken format where all of their mistakes come to roost. Then we would all play Standard, Historic, Pioneer, or some other format they can pretend is less broken. Of course, those formats are still horrifically broken and none of this resolves the fundamental problems. It just lets Wizards keep ignoring it, not acknowledging it, or continuing it for months/years to come.

As for Pioneer, I'm again going to emphasize you cannot make any strong conclusions about the health of a format that few people appear to be playing on MTGO. There are currently about 1080 players on MTGO who have 1+ trophy in the ongoing Modern League that ends in June. In the equivalent Pioneer League, there are only about 530 players. If that is any indication of relative format popularity, that suggests Pioneer sees much less play (50% by those numbers), which means less iteration, less refined and mature metagames, and much worse data. This means we actually have no idea what the "true" Pioneer metagame looks like. Contrast with Modern where we should be confident the true metagame is more or less exactly what we have estimated it to be from public MTGO data.
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Post by cfusionpm » 1 year ago

With regards to what @ktkenshinx is saying, there was a sentiment floating around the Twittersphere recently in that WOTC saying things like "this product isn't for you" is eventually leading to many players hearing "this GAME" isn't for you. And recommending another format that is full of its own problems only helps WOTC and hurts players.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
I feel like you did not read my post. I will explain later.
Not sure if you are responding to me, but I did read your posts. I'm not going to argue against any of the points in it because I know how you feel about Modern vs. Pioneer and it's not worth getting into. I am making a larger claim about your general framing of the issue. Every time you compare one format to another and bring it up as if A is healthier/better than B, you are letting Wizards win. You are allowing them to frame the issue as one of formats and not a foundational, fundamental break in how they make cards and manage the game. Don't let them do that.
Unfortunately, I can not take leagues seriously as points of data.
On the other hand, pioneer has 3 ptq's/ week, instead of the 2 modern has.
This can present even better data points.
Leagues are the number one way players play on MTGO. Wizards can artificially force any format they want by increasing the number of other events offered for that format, but they can't hide the number of League participants.
My post was about that. Modern is a problematic format, because of high power level cards and the lack of legacy answers.

Now, most formats have problems, but modern has all of those enhanced.

This means, historic and pioneer up to a point, are formats I would recommend for better stability. When modern is broken, its a horror show. When other formats are bad, they are just bad.
No formats are stable. All formats are horror shows. It's fashionable to hate on Modern and has been for years, but all formats are broken and all formats will continue to be broken. A lack of Legacy answers will destroy all formats and haven't even been enough to insulate Legacy from bans (and probably more bans to come). Stop framing this as a Format A vs. Format B, C, D, etc. issue. It's bigger than any format. It's a core problem with Wizards and we need to call that out.
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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

Greeksis wrote:
1 year ago
Now, most formats have problems, but modern has all of those enhanced.

This means, historic and pioneer up to a point, are formats I would recommend for better stability. When modern is broken, its a horror show. When other formats are bad, they are just bad.
Modern has more perception of issue, not because of the format's card pool, but due to utter mismanagement by Wizards.

1. Modern was the premier constructed 60 card format. They can claim its Standard, but Modern is what drew the eyes. Modern is what had the views. Modern, is what had the most iteration and depth.

2. Despite (because of?) this, Modern was allowed (following the years long outcry over Twin's banning) a long leash. Problem cards were allowed to fester and rot the format from within, because Wizards was too scared to do anything quickly, imo out of fear of getting another backlash.

3. Other formats are either very new/shallow/unexplored (Historic/Pioneer) or are just as broken as Modern (Legacy) but dont get the eyes that even now, Modern has. Vintage, may as well be Commander, its a whole different thing.

There is no Stability. Stability is counter to the design/development mandate which Wizards seeming operating under. Rotation is the name of the game, if not time based (Standard) then by forced power level.

The only reason Pioneer is not a hellscape, is that its under iterated as it has 50% of the players of Modern. Historic probably IS solved, but nobody gives a %$#% because the stakes are...nothing.

Give it a few weeks.

----

The biggest issue remains that Wizards is beholden to Hasbro, and has ZERO issue in invalidating our collections, because they already got that money, and they need more of your new money. See us next time for when Core 2021 and Return to Return to Zen break every format AGAIN.

BY DESIGN.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

In regards to pushing out high power sets in order to make the biggest profits, I have something to say about this.

I have a really smart friend who made me realize that this "pumping" of sets like this is very short sighted and going to cost Hasbro money in the middle to long term. In the short term, Battlecruiser magic is great. People outside of the game are allured into the game because of the big, flashy Mythics. But when game play gets too boring and repetitive, they eventually leave. It just is not fun anymore. Making the game balanced leads to a lot of good game play. People enjoying coming to FNMs, GPs, and other Magic tournaments. They spend money on so many extras that it is just naturally going to be very profitable to WotC and companies working with WotC (like CFB or SCG or your LGS for example). Those companies buy more and more product from WotC; so much that WotC can barely keep up with orders. When game play is interesting and balanced, it puts "butts in the seats." That last quote was from the Professor (youtuber), so it's not an insane and far out idea. I've talked to many people before and they agree with the main idea of what this is saying. My friend is not a theorist - just a super smart, like mensa smart kind of guy.

Battlecruiser Magic --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Balanced Magic, and everything in between that. I think that some balance and having high attendance events in the future can only be good for Wizards. Battlecruiser magic gets old quickly...

*To recap, if you want to do a quick cash grab, like for example you're a new business that wants just maybe 1-2 years to get as much money as you can before it goes sour and you move on, Battlecruiser Magic is for you. If you are a long term, sustainable business that wants to make a lot of profit, then Balanced Magic is more for you. To define this a bit better, it means that there are lots of strategies within a set that can compete because the power level of just 2-3 other strategies are not pushed too far ahead of everything else. (balanced magic is not Standard Energy - that was just better than anything else, so why bother {innovate})

**I think the question that WotC executives should be working on (and get pay raises for success) is, "how do we keep our player base playing the game?"
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I have a really smart friend who made me realize that this "pumping" of sets like this is very short sighted and going to cost Hasbro money in the middle to long term. In the short term,
We know this. We have all been saying this. Non-rotational formats are what keep people invested. Unless they desire to just go all in on EDH, everyone knows that this current path is a medium to long term disaster for player retention.

Why stick around when you constantly need to buy full decks with every other set, and your 'collection' has no point because the strongest decks just run Standard cards anyway?

We know this, and Wizards knows this. Hasbro on the other hand, has Monopoly. 80+ years of the same %$#% game.

Its not great, but it makes them money. What do they care if Magic has a 25 year history? Just keep printing cards Maro, some idiot will buy them, just like the next release of Monopoly.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
1 year ago
I have a really smart friend who made me realize that this "pumping" of sets like this is very short sighted and going to cost Hasbro money in the middle to long term. In the short term,
We know this. We have all been saying this. Non-rotational formats are what keep people invested. Unless they desire to just go all in on EDH, everyone knows that this current path is a medium to long term disaster for player retention.

Why stick around when you constantly need to buy full decks with every other set, and your 'collection' has no point because the strongest decks just run Standard cards anyway?

We know this, and Wizards knows this. Hasbro on the other hand, has Monopoly. 80+ years of the same %$#% game.

Its not great, but it makes them money. What do they care if Magic has a 25 year history? Just keep printing cards Maro, some idiot will buy them, just like the next release of Monopoly.
I'm not sure if they genuinely know this. There's several ways too look at it.
1. Hasbro knows and they just want to do a cash grab
2. Hasbro knows and they hope that the money made in the short term will outweigh the long term losses
3. Hasbro doesn't know, so they believe that their way will be more profitable

Either way, we should pray to see Richard Garfield and whoever works in his group to be back to helping on sets.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

I've worked in a global corporation for over a decade. Something like Hasbro, is not going to have the nuanced appreciation for a singular product line, like Magic.

They dont get it, and nobody at Wizards has the balls, or clout, to stop this trainwreck.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 1 year ago

idSurge wrote:
1 year ago
I've worked in a global corporation for over a decade. Something like Hasbro, is not going to have the nuanced appreciation for a singular product line, like Magic.

They dont get it, and nobody at Wizards has the balls, or clout, to stop this trainwreck.
It may be the clout. I know a couple of people working at WotC, but because they don't live in California anymore, it's hard to have genuine conversations (can only talk on whatsapp or messenger). There also definitely are people jockeying for "some cards" to be unbanned, more so than Preordain or GSZ, sadly enough to me. (the last part)

But I see your point. Job security is very important and you don't want to talk badly about your employer or try to change too much within just your own minor job position. I see why people are saying that Maro is out of touch since he DOES have the clout and could definitely say something and still have job security. Maybe something will "click" with those making decisions that they can be more profitable and productive using different strategies? Maybe pushing out sets and supplemental products AND creating balance within a set is counterproductive? Maybe it doesn't work together well or takes too much work? I don't know.

*I think next time I'm chatting on a stream and someone brings up "what ifs" when I say what cards could be unbanned, I'll ask them to genuinely answer if they were the ones who said "what ifs" with Sword of the Meek, Ancestral Vision, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Bloodbraid Elf, or Stoneforge Mystic. Maybe I'll limit it to 2 of those. I still want to talk to my friend that said he would EAT a Jace, the Mind Sculptor if it were unbanned and ask him if it is all right now, but I haven't talked to him in a year almost.

**P.S. - You guys know me; I have a big mouth. If I worked there, I would be that one talking to Maro in the cafeteria. I would be that guy that annoys too many people and ends up fired. Not the smartest decision, but we can't change who we are, right?
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - DEAD
Modern - Jund Sacrifice, Jeskai Phoenix, Elementals, Trollementals, BR Asmo/Goryo's, Yawmoth Chord
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 1 year ago

You cant ask if it is ok now. You have to look at the setting in which it was unbanned.

Jace was fine. More than fine, it was a 'meh whatever'.

SFM? Less than that.
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