[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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Bearscape
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Post by Bearscape » 11 months ago

Changing the rules for Companion is my preference, too. I actually do think the concept of it is very interesting, the problem is just that the cost of running a companion is much too low for how good the payoff is.

I think that, after mulliganning, having to replace one of the cards in your hand with your Companion would be a good start. This leaves Companions very powerful, makes them vulnerable to discard, and playing Lurrus into Bauble is no longer an immediate 3 for 1.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 11 months ago

Just remove the mechanic from constructed like I have said since day 1. But I could still see a world where 3-4 maindeck Lurrus would be too strong.

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 11 months ago

I predict banning lurrus. I don't think every companion needs banned, some of the weaker ones see very little play outside standard and i think they will be fine, keruga or the otter for example. If gyruda or yurion or some other one takes over then ban it too, but the low power ones are going to be ok in older formats imo.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 11 months ago

Week 3 update is live. I'm also including some new stats this week: comparing Lurrus shares today to the shares of old staples and banned cards (e.g. BBE, JTMS, Oko, SFM, OUaT, etc.). I also compare Lurrus's shares to pre-IKO metagame staples like Bolt and Astrolabe. Unsurprisingly, Lurrus is outperforming all of those. Terrifyingly, Lurrus's current 45.4% meta share is HIGHER than the combined TC/DTT share at the height of their pre-ban metagame (43.9%).

Article:
https://mtgmodernmetrics.wordpress.com/ ... mparisons/

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Amazing work as always, the numbers largely speak for themselves when viewed in a historical context.

The question I posed to you on Twitter remains, and I believe it speaks to an undercurrent of discussion here and elsewhere.

Do you feel the 'rules' that applied to TC/DTT in regardless to when something is bannable, are the same rules that would/could be applied to Lurrus?

Or more generally, do you feel there is an issue with the inconsistency around ban/unban choices, which drives the community into a frenzy?

I wish this article could have hit a bit sooner, as unless you are being followed by Forsythe, its not going to get us action on Monday anyway. :(
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

I personally believe that Lurrus of the Dream-Den should be banned as a companion in Modern. As a card in decks, it definitely is overpowered (it probably should have cost 4, but then how much play would it see?), but not breaking anything.

I do not think the other companions need to be banned right now (possibly Yorion in the future), but I can see the view of someone who doesn't believe that one should start with an extra card (especially since I play Amulet w/ no companion). Part of me wants to play with some companions, so that is another incentive for me not wanting them banned. I wouldn't mind trying them in paper, but if I want to try Lurrus in paper, it could have already damaged Modern beyond repair. (because that will be a long time)

*For me, it's the inconsistency with ban/unban choices that upsets me. I wouldn't mind if Modern had just 3 cards banned for now and took everything else off the ban list. (Eye, Ho, and Misstep)
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
11 months ago
I do not have the capacity right now to reply to every response that was directed my way, so if I missed something, feel free to @ me and I will hopefully be able to reply.
drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
I have discussed at length Lantern in these very threads. I agree there were many issues that prevented it being uptaken in numbers and have discussed them at length before I only bought it up because ktkenshinx said I was factually incorrect in talking about 2015 not having a prison deck, when in fact I am correct and have provided the data that it was 2016 that had Lantern in numbers, not 2015 as he said, with its seven MTG top 8 listings, even though its breakthrough was 2015 it was not widely played even by its own standards then. 2016 was Lantern's year. It is fun to look back on past decks, but I was mainly trying to correct an incorrect statement to the correct year. Pedantry, perhaps, but since I said I preferred 2016/17 to 15 it also fits in with what I proclaimed.
I reviewed my old MTGS metagame stats from 2015 and 2016 and stand corrected. You are right that 2016 had more viable prison decks than 2015, even if 2015 was their breakout year. Based on my spreadsheet, by the end of 2016, Lantern Control was about 2.5% of the MTGO metagame and Sun and Moon was about 3%. Lantern was only around 1.5% in late 2015 with no other prison presences. Based on this, I am happy to concede that prison was better and more viable in 2016 than 2015.

I will still say that an original point I made stands: prison is NOT a prerequisite to a healthy Modern, nor does its presence guarantee Modern is healthy. 2016 had about 5.5% of the format on prison decks at the end of the year right before two bannings due to significant health issues. Similarly, 2015 ended the year with prison at only 1.5% (and not even white prison, at that); late 2015 was still regarded by many as an extremely healthy period of Modern. I am totally comfortable with you as a prison player preferring 2016 to 2015 as prison was better at that time. But your initial argument about "Wx Prison is not requirement for a healthy meta. Prison is a requirement" does not hold water. A metagame with a ton of prison was extremely unhealthy (late 2016) and a metagame with much less prison was much healthier (2015).
I am glad I tagged you a second time, it is easy to miss things on here, I did not think you would ignore me deliberately. I thought was just a simple case of 2016 mixed up with 15.

As I said previously, Modern's biggest weakness as a whole rather than a specific year for me has been a lack of prisons, it leads to imbalance and most years hurts the format. I think you suggested that was what I was implying originally and you were correct. As a whole the format runs into more traps as it lacks answers and locks, especially landkill. The format has been fundamentally flawed - whether it is "healthy" or "unhealthy" by its own standards, it will always be looking at bannings and an unhealthy environment is always closeby. It is often 2 ships in the night, one on fire, because of an imbalance of threats vs answers, and when those two balance you naturally get more prison decks- because they are decks full of answers. You can't control a meta with UWx control alone- removal and counters can't do all the work, you need more controlling decks hitting hands or lands or both, taxing things etc.

Things were so bad for control that they used to call tron a "control deck" on MTG top 8, but in Legacy its equivalent cloudpost deck is under combo. Big mana is not about control when it can drop game ending walkers or critters etc.

Early on was great in Modern for me, there was more scope for brewing in a nascent format. Hell early on stuff like Soul Sisters existed too.
Obviously my preference for 2016 and especially 17 is very subjective, and is probably due to my prison preferences- we were spoilt then with Boros control coming along with Nahiri after Lantern- as is my requirement for a prison deck- 5 pc for one deck is fine, btw, I don't ask for 15 pc or anything. My theory is 2015 had people happy if they enjoyed BGx or Twin, and I detested both, although I owned two Twin decks in paper. Pioneer has inverter vs Mono B say and it feels the same to me, the difference being those Twin/BGx decks were miles better than anything other than the stalwarts affinity, Tron etc. and their Pioneer cousins are not.


Legacy has got to the point where many decks like ramp have strong prison cards like Karn and everything is hybrid. Prison-combo, Aggro-prison. etc. Most prison decks end the game with a combo now. Modern might go that way if it ever gets tools to balance the big threats without bans. I don't think it will under FIRE, though, threats are >>>>>answers by so much that the format can never be healthy again.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

There's an amazing article by Brian Gottlieb on SCG Premium. Unfortunately, these articles are harder for people to access because they have to pay for them now - and CFB has gone to CFB "Pro" articles now. I mean it's not a terrible idea, but it just sucks that fewer people have access to them.

In the article, Brian Gottlieb just says that he doesn't enjoy Magic right now. There really aren't any stones thrown and he doesn't want to take away from anybody who enjoys playing right now. But he doesn't enjoy what Ikoria has done to any format he would try to play to escape other formats.

"I just want to enjoy Constructed Magic again."
for those w/ premium https://articles.starcitygames.com/prem ... 1564458490
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Post by motleyslayer » 11 months ago

I feel that my overall enjoyment for Magic has decreased since Ikoria. I can't remember which podcast it was, but one of the podcasts I listen to said that companions are probably the least impactful in modern than in other formats. In a sense, they said they can see them being banned in other formats but they can see WotC leaving them in the format for a bit. I don't know if I like that as companions are still everywhere in modern from the limited amount of time I've played modern since quarantine started. Lurrus seems absurd in a lot of decks and Obosh seems absurd in Gruul midrange

Format just seems in a weird place right now. I wouldn't necessarily say broken but it just seems weird

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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

Ikoria needs to sell. They have to leave companions somewhere out of the 3 older formats, as the least affected format, Modern it is. No changes to Modern. Legacy is on fire, Vintage has burnt down, Modern is smouldering, and frankly is not in a desirable neighbourhood....

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Post by ktkenshinx » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
As I said previously, Modern's biggest weakness as a whole rather than a specific year for me has been a lack of prisons, it leads to imbalance and most years hurts the format. I think you suggested that was what I was implying originally and you were correct. As a whole the format runs into more traps as it lacks answers and locks, especially landkill. The format has been fundamentally flawed - whether it is "healthy" or "unhealthy" by its own standards, it will always be looking at bannings and an unhealthy environment is always closeby. It is often 2 ships in the night, one on fire, because of an imbalance of threats vs answers, and when those two balance you naturally get more prison decks- because they are decks full of answers. You can't control a meta with UWx control alone- removal and counters can't do all the work, you need more controlling decks hitting hands or lands or both, taxing things etc.
I may have misinterpreted your previous posts. I think this point here is a good one and may be accurate. Large, nonrotating formats do need more generic answers and punishing effects to restrict greedy, overreaching decks. I'm not necessarily sure this takes the form of prison decks specifically, but powerful answers are necessary for environments to self regulate. Prison decks do play a role in that, so I'm comfortable saying they may be a necessary piece for a healthy, large, nonrotating format. If not prison decks, then certainly generic answers and powerful reactive options.
motleyslayer wrote:
11 months ago
I feel that my overall enjoyment for Magic has decreased since Ikoria. I can't remember which podcast it was, but one of the podcasts I listen to said that companions are probably the least impactful in modern than in other formats. In a sense, they said they can see them being banned in other formats but they can see WotC leaving them in the format for a bit. I don't know if I like that as companions are still everywhere in modern from the limited amount of time I've played modern since quarantine started. Lurrus seems absurd in a lot of decks and Obosh seems absurd in Gruul midrange

Format just seems in a weird place right now. I wouldn't necessarily say broken but it just seems weird
I would take this a few steps further and say that IKO appears to have decreased enjoyment for many Constructed spikes, not just Modern players. This is true both because the specific cards (honestly, companions) are so outrageously broken, but also because the conversation around Magic is increasingly polarizing and negative. There's just not a lot of positive things to say when all formats are constantly broken due to bad Wizards design decisions. It's worse when Wizards is opaque about how they are handling the situation, and worse still when a handful of their representatives are either defensive on social media or just ignoring the problem. It's also not even IKO alone. Magic has been reeling since early 2019 through present and I don't expect this will stop by the end of 2020. Add in the COVID-19 restrictions on paper Magic and you have a perfect storm of negative effects that hurt Magic, especially competitive Constructed Magic, at virtually all levels.
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

drmarkb wrote:
11 months ago
Ikoria needs to sell. They have to leave companions somewhere out of the 3 older formats, as the least affected format, Modern it is. No changes to Modern. Legacy is on fire, Vintage has burnt down, Modern is smouldering, and frankly is not in a desirable neighbourhood....
This is true, but the companions from the set actually are not that expensive in paper. Lurrus is down to around $8, while the other companions range from $4 to less than $1. That was one thing that WotC got right in that they were rares. And many players only need to buy one of them. Imagine if WotC had made these Mythic (no, forget that, I don't wanna think about it).

I actually think the set can sell from the standpoint of powerful Planeswalkers, triomes that are new and useful, and Godzilla/Mutate type lore. People will buy Ikoria, but I understand this view, since when Hogaak had gone down to $6 since everyone knew it would be a matter of time before it was banned, it still took a while to get banned. We just never know how much WotC will milk out of it.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
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Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Yeah, I'm not on the 'packs need to sell' wagon on this one. This isnt Throne, with Brazen Borrower, Oko, and whatever other chase rares/mythics are floating around (Fires I guess).

Its a few rare's in the set, that you need a grand total of 1 of.

Big whoop. In a period where physical cards are essentially meaningless.

They leave them legal in Modern, because its just one more thing to leave in Modern, like Veil, like T3feri, like Astrolabe, that other formats (Vintage/Legacy) are able to leverage even more powerfully.

My biggest take away from Ikoria, is that they screwed up on the focus. Mutate is fine, Cycling is whatever (what is the 'lore' or fluff reason for cycling, it seems completely setting independent, just evergreen it...) and the Triomes are neat, but they must come into play tapped, and we have Astrolabe so...who cares?

The focus on Monsters was a big miss, other than Yidaro, very few things seem to have that scale, that weight, as a monster.

What they missed out on, was focusing on the Bonder 'faction'. They could have done something closer to Partner, instead of Companion, and really made some interesting thematic decks/cards.
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Post by motleyslayer » 11 months ago

ktkenshinx wrote:
11 months ago
motleyslayer wrote:
11 months ago
I feel that my overall enjoyment for Magic has decreased since Ikoria. I can't remember which podcast it was, but one of the podcasts I listen to said that companions are probably the least impactful in modern than in other formats. In a sense, they said they can see them being banned in other formats but they can see WotC leaving them in the format for a bit. I don't know if I like that as companions are still everywhere in modern from the limited amount of time I've played modern since quarantine started. Lurrus seems absurd in a lot of decks and Obosh seems absurd in Gruul midrange

Format just seems in a weird place right now. I wouldn't necessarily say broken but it just seems weird
I would take this a few steps further and say that IKO appears to have decreased enjoyment for many Constructed spikes, not just Modern players. This is true both because the specific cards (honestly, companions) are so outrageously broken, but also because the conversation around Magic is increasingly polarizing and negative. There's just not a lot of positive things to say when all formats are constantly broken due to bad Wizards design decisions. It's worse when Wizards is opaque about how they are handling the situation, and worse still when a handful of their representatives are either defensive on social media or just ignoring the problem. It's also not even IKO alone. Magic has been reeling since early 2019 through present and I don't expect this will stop by the end of 2020. Add in the COVID-19 restrictions on paper Magic and you have a perfect storm of negative effects that hurt Magic, especially competitive Constructed Magic, at virtually all levels.
you said it better than I could have. It's probably been said a ton already but companions are annoying because they're essentially an 8th card you always have access to and can't be forced to be discarded or interacted with before you cast it. One of the buddies I started grinding events with 5 years ago finally decided to pull the trigger and just sell out because he can't handle how busted every format has become. He's kind of been saying it for a few years just nobody really listened.

I could probably go on for a while on how Wizards is (poorly) handling how poorly they've handled every format since maybe Kaladesh (but especially bad since last year). Just the fact that they've missed so much and are in sort of denial about everything is absurd.

In regards to this whole Covid pandemic preventing people from playing competitive Magic, I'm still not sure how it'll affect how people play comp Magic. There's people who have been switching to online to get their fix and I wouldn't be surprised if some % of people will just stick to online and sell out of paper. there's also some people who will probably just stop playing all together. On the other hand there has to be some number of peopel who enjoy the social interaction aspect of paper and will be glad to play paper again

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

motleyslayer wrote:
11 months ago
In regards to this whole Covid pandemic preventing people from playing competitive Magic, I'm still not sure how it'll affect how people play comp Magic. There's people who have been switching to online to get their fix and I wouldn't be surprised if some % of people will just stick to online and sell out of paper. there's also some people who will probably just stop playing all together. On the other hand there has to be some number of peopel who enjoy the social interaction aspect of paper and will be glad to play paper again
I feel like I fit several of these characteristics in one. There's a lot of joy garnered from simply shuffling cards in paper, drawing and looking at an opening hand, flicking through cards, enjoying the pretty art and special foils I treasure, I love the sound cards make as you place them on a playmat with that tiny slap sound as the last corner of the card snaps against the mat, I love the friendly banter and chit chat you can have with a charismatic opponent (especially terrible puns and jokes), I love reading and using body language or small audible cues to guess what my opponent is up to, or misrepresent what I'm up to, I love paper magic.

That being said, there are a ton of downfalls that make the experience truly awful. Namely...
1. Being "stuck" in a match against an obnoxious deck, or something that creates unfavotable, boring, or frustrating gameplay patterns.
1a. Knowing that even if you concede from this terrible match, you have a long wait until the next round starts
2. Being at the mercy of timing and scheduling.
2a. Events often fire late into the night, with a 5 round FNM frequently brushing against (or past) midnight. I'm in my mid 30s with a toddler, I don't want to be out that late.
2b. Similar to 1a, simply waiting for the next round to start sucks. Lots of dead time, but usually not *enough* dead time to do something meaningful in between (like trying to get in a "quick" game of Commander).
3. Playing in a meta that is filled with decks which create the problems seen in #1.
4. It's both slow and expensive to change, swap, or drastically upgrade decks.
4a. It can be both expensive and demoralizing to spend a lot of time and money building a deck, get to play it a handful of times, and then effectively need to scrap half the cards to rebuild it into something more competitively viable due to a new printing or recent banning. Because...
4b. The nature of buying and selling cards could mean lots more money and a week+ turnaround between needing a card, ordering it, and receiving it. Meaning you may not get it in time for the next FNM. And...
4c. Some of the sweet (or expensive cards) you previously bought for your deck are effectively useless at a higher rate than previously. Because...
4d. Power creep has drastically and fundamentally changed decks set to set for the last several sets and is making it difficult and expensive to "keep up."

Again, just trying to organize some fairly rambling thoughts.

I have mostly enjoyed my time on MTGO because of the speed with which I can play matches, the convenience of the timing, the ease at which I can buy and sell cards to swap decks, and the ability to quickly move on from horrid games. But the experience of playing magic in that environment is definitely skewed more towards the game and away from the experience.

I'm looking forward to the idea of playing in paper again (for all the reasons listed at the top), but the state of Modern is not motivating me to jump back in, even if things opened up next week.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
motleyslayer wrote:
11 months ago
In regards to this whole Covid pandemic preventing people from playing competitive Magic, I'm still not sure how it'll affect how people play comp Magic. There's people who have been switching to online to get their fix and I wouldn't be surprised if some % of people will just stick to online and sell out of paper. there's also some people who will probably just stop playing all together. On the other hand there has to be some number of peopel who enjoy the social interaction aspect of paper and will be glad to play paper again
I feel like I fit several of these characteristics in one. There's a lot of joy garnered from simply shuffling cards in paper, drawing and looking at an opening hand, flicking through cards, enjoying the pretty art and special foils I treasure, I love the sound cards make as you place them on a playmat with that tiny slap sound as the last corner of the card snaps against the mat, I love the friendly banter and chit chat you can have with a charismatic opponent (especially terrible puns and jokes), I love reading and using body language or small audible cues to guess what my opponent is up to, or misrepresent what I'm up to, I love paper magic.
This is one of the things I enjoy the most about paper Magic, outside of the whole community. To this day, there are some players that I just cannot read. And this makes me want to learn how to read them even more (human nature, lol).

I don't think paper can ever be replaced because of all the things you listed. It makes too much money for WotC because people enjoy these things.
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Limited - Will start when paper starts
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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
In the article, Brian Gottlieb just says that he doesn't enjoy Magic right now. There really aren't any stones thrown and he doesn't want to take away from anybody who enjoys playing right now. But he doesn't enjoy what Ikoria has done to any format he would try to play to escape other formats.
Lots of pros have been saying that lately. Sam Black was a big voice in that regard lately, which I find particularly telling because he does occasional work for WotC now, is generally a positive person, and a big name pro. Even Reid Duke has been less positive than normal (I won't say negative because he's never negative, but his positivity is definitely down).
cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
I love reading and using body language or small audible cues to guess what my opponent is up to, or misrepresent what I'm up to, I love paper magic.


There's actually a ton of body language involved in online games, even when you can't see your opponent. Response times, sequencing, etc... alot of the information you get is different from what you get in paper, but there is still a lot of information to gather.

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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

I think it is hard to look at a screen, say a favourite card.on screen, and feel the same buzz. My favourite cards include Tabernacle, Stasis and Land Tax in Legacy, and Magus of The Tab in Modern (because even at REL comp people try to dismember EOT only to discover it is a 2/6 for no reason at all).
When I see the Legends symbol and silly greedy face on the LT card, it just feels like a favourite record in vinyl. Ditto Taby, and its Magus. Like having a signed shirt on the wall, it has no function above that online or a proxy, but generates such warmth. Ditto Stasis and its art by Fay Jones. It is not the cost- Taby is 1000x more expensive than Magus, which costs less than a Pizza. It is the feel, the memories, the flicking back and forward in hand. I look at my Ice Age basics and sigh. Or my Korean tempest basics. Or my revised - each one has a texture that online cards do not.
Attachments are more real when they are cardboard, a screen gets switched off and the card vanishes. A light goes out on a room or safe and the card is there, baring some quantum philosophical shenanigans. It is for the same reason I buy computer games from 1987 on cassette that I can play for free on emulators or put onto SD card for free and yet I want the game and packaging as intended. It is not very logical, but very human, and that is why Mtg will exist in paper, why books still sell in hardback and why vinyl records sell today.

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
There's actually a ton of body language involved in online games, even when you can't see your opponent. Response times, sequencing, etc... alot of the information you get is different from what you get in paper, but there is still a lot of information to gather.
I really with MTGO had a cursor highlight effect for both players like Arena has. Pauses and delays can only do so much, and I;m not going to lie and say I haven't abused someone F6ing to but even doing stuff like looking through your GY or double checking certain permanents (or specifically NOT doing that) can project or represent certain plays. I pretty much exclusively play Snapcaster decks, and have trained myself to habitually look/check the GY. This usually represents a Snap whether I have one or not, and can be used to bluff I have one, or hide that I actually AM checking (the inconsistency is they key). Hard to do stuff like that in a digital game that doesn't show what I'm hovering over or clicking on. But I get that there are *some* tells available in the digital world.

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Post by blkdemonight » 11 months ago

TheBoulderer wrote:
11 months ago
Quick observation on Lurrus, nothing new, just another perspective: I've been on Grixis Control for years, it's the only deck I've ever seriously played, apart from UR Thing in the Ice. And when Lurrus arrived, I stopped playing Grixis Control because I thought Lurrus doesn't slot into that well enough, and switched to Grixis Thing in the Ice with Lurrus. Had some ups and downs with it.

But recently I've incorporated Lurrus into an Into the Story Grixis Control list running Young Pyromancer instead of Tasigur, and just ditching Gearhulk altogether. SB had to be adjusted, but there's even the option of not doing that and not revealing Lurrus as your companion.

Quick sidebar: I think thats one of the dumber things with companions, that you can choose not to reveal them and sideboard whatever you want. It should be mandatory.

Anyway, Grixis Control with Lurrus is insane. The restriction from my original list was literally 1 card (Gearhulk, and I was already on YP) and several sideboard slots (2 Kalitas, 2 Fulminator, 2 Ashiok), but Lurrus is just so much better than all that, and Nihil Spellbomb/Tormod's Crypt plus Lurrus gives so much consistent play against GY strategies, its just incredible.

And the best part is that Lurrus is a genuinely good card vs Burn/Prowess. Having a 3/2 lifelinker isnt that impressive, but having it every game is a huge deal and in the 30-something matches I've had against RDW, it steals about every 5th or 6th game vs Burn, no kidding.

So for my fringe deck specifically, Lurrus is just a great way to make the strategy 1) generally viable, 2) keep up with all the other Lurrus or non-Lurrus Companion decks and 3) shore up the single matchup that has historically made Grixis control struggle in any metagame with RDW.

I'm not necessarily defending Lurrus from being a ubiquitous card in our format, but there are some huge positives that come from having it in the format.

1) I really like the fact that Grixis Delver is a thing.
2) that Lurrus gives the meta a leg up vs Big Mana because they can't run it themselves.
3) that while Lurrus is good in Burn, in my experience it's even better against Burn.
4) that Lurrus + Crypt/Spellbomb is incredibly strong against Graveyard decks (Crabvine, Dredge, Living End, Rakdos Pyromancer lists etc).

If one has no problem accepting "reveal companion" as part of the game like "draw starting 7" or "roll for play", maybe it's ok to have these cards.

Lets look at 3 alternatives to leaving all Companions legal:

1) Ban just Lurrus: as others have said, the metagame would just tilt towards the other companions, which would make for another 2-3 months of bad modern an end with another ban, then another ban, and another until all of em are gone.

2) Ban all companions: modern had some massive problems before Companions, and we would just revert to those. I won't go into them again because there are a good 50-60 forum pages on the topic just a few pages back.

3) Adjust the rules: would be a very good option too imo, probably the best for everybody overall because people get to play their cards without having an unfair advantage.

I've been for banning Lurrus since it came out, but I admit I didn't try running it. I have now, and at least for my personal fringe deck, Grixis Control, having Lurrus stick around would probably be a net positive as opposed to pre-Lurrus.

EDIT: It's also not so bad for accessability to the format. Yes, Lurrus is a 15$ card, but you'll only ever need 1 copy if you're running it as companion and just having Lurrus (or other companions) will make a lot of budget-builds much more playable against all the non-companion tier decks.
I remember this post after encountering an article about Karn the great creator on Legacy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/th ... th-of-karn

And remember why I take issue with people calling companions commander cards. Companions are like wishes of old, Karn the great creator and the blue adventure fairy that grabs a card from outside the game: weaponized sideboards. All of them.

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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
There's actually a ton of body language involved in online games, even when you can't see your opponent. Response times, sequencing, etc... alot of the information you get is different from what you get in paper, but there is still a lot of information to gather.
I really with MTGO had a cursor highlight effect for both players like Arena has. Pauses and delays can only do so much, and I;m not going to lie and say I haven't abused someone F6ing to but even doing stuff like looking through your GY or double checking certain permanents (or specifically NOT doing that) can project or represent certain plays. I pretty much exclusively play Snapcaster decks, and have trained myself to habitually look/check the GY. This usually represents a Snap whether I have one or not, and can be used to bluff I have one, or hide that I actually AM checking (the inconsistency is they key). Hard to do stuff like that in a digital game that doesn't show what I'm hovering over or clicking on. But I get that there are *some* tells available in the digital world.
I agree. This is something I would 100% add to MTGO.

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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

If they have not banned astrolabe in Legacy, it won't get it in Modern. In Legacy it invalidates Wasteland, a key card, and the 5 col and 4 col piles it produces are horrific, all running blood Moon in the board. Not to mention Oko reigning supreme making the labe into elk. In modern the effect is strong but nothing like what it has done to Legacy, two colour UW decks morphing into 4 colour that do not get hurt by wasteland is huge. The number 3 pillar of the format, no 2 policeman card, invalidated, I can't think of an analogous Modern card being invalidated.

When Modern gets a ban, in a couple of months, I would expect baubles, or perhaps Lurrus. The Legacy one tomorrow may just be Lurrus. There is not much hope of astrolabe, and little hope for companion going full stop. If either happen Modern might be in line for serious consideration, but if it is just Lurrus in Legacy I suspect that indicates wotc will be cautious with modern and just nerf at the edges later down the line.

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Post by ktkenshinx » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
My takeaways from ktkenshinx's article:
Great stats, but I disagree with the conclusion. My conclusions would be.
You say you disagree with the conclusions, but then you make many of the same conclusions I do. For instance, you group Burn/Prowess as a problematic macro archetype, an identical point I make in the article. You talk about repetitive play patterns and reduction in variance which I also call out as a major issue with Lurrus. The only big thing we disagree on is the definition of diversity.

I almost always use "diversity" to mean a representation of archetype/strategic diversity at the metagame breakdown level. I also almost always call it that explicitly, and in that regard, I'd really consider it "archetype/strategic diversity." I separate this aspect of diversity from "gameplay diversity" (e.g. games playing out the same/different way), "card diversity" (e.g. decks of same/different classifications playing same/different cards), and "format variance" (e.g. how often you see certain cards or effects due to redundancy or high deck velocity). A metagame can have diverse strategies represented even if the other elements are not diverse. For example, pre-Lurrus Legacy has much lower variance and card diversity than Modern due to cantrips and the omnipresence of blue/Brainstorm decks (omnipresent relative to anything in Modern), and yet that was a generally healthy and strategically diverse metagame. Modern today has diverse decks, but does not have diverse play patterns and has much lower variance. All of those four factors play into overall health and net diversity of a metagame, but you can have a format that has archetype/strategic diversity that still has less/no diversity in the other three areas.
1) Modern is not diverse for many reasons.
>2 cmc's in non ramp decks are totally going extinct.
Unless you define Temur Urza or the Bant/4C Snow Control decks as ramp, this is untrue. They have ramp elements, Uro, but these are not ramp like Titan or Tron. These decks are major metagame players, are almost all trending up, and obviously support >2 CMCs in non-ramp decks. Hyperbole does not help your arguments. If you just said the more nuanced and accurate "there's an overall decline in >2 CMC permanents which speeds up the format," I would totally agree with you. But this kind of ovestated hyperbole does not do you any favors. It's okay to have nuanced arguments about a super broken Lurrus metagame. Some elements of Lurrus are obviously broken and bad for Modern. Call out those issues for what they are and stop making up claims to indict Lurrus.
>3 cmc cards are out of the meta, which makes Modern more non diverse.
This is also inaccurate. Yorion and ramp decks continue to rise, which almost by definition play tons of >3 CMC cards. Ponza also sees plenty of 3+ CMC options. Again, as I note in the article, players (you included) need to stop contorting your arguments to hate on a Lurrus metagame. The metagame is extremely broken. We all basically agree on that point. You can make that allegation without inventing new, unfounded complaints about the metagame.

I will add another bonus analysis in here that underscores the complexity of the Lurrus issue. One of the major allegations against Lurrus is that it has homogenized deckbuilding for decks that used to run >2 CMC permanents, especially something like Jund. As the argument goes, old Jund used to have a ton of 3+ CMC cards that new Jund doesn't use. But when we actually compare the unique permanents in old Jund to those in new Jund, we actually see there there is no difference in the number of maindecked, unique permanents played by old vs. new Jund. Here's the quick analysis using the most recent 20 Jund decks in both the new dataset and the old dataset (most recent from pre-Lurrus). Highlighted cards overlap between the two datasets:
image.png
Jund lost 7 permanents in the old metagame (BBE, Lily, Klothys, Ashiok, Bonecrusher, Beast, Pyromancer) and gained 7 permanents in the new (Lurrus, Bauble, Spellbomb, Seal, EE, Flayer, Hexdrinker). If you look at permanents that saw widespread play (>50%; no one really thinks of Questing Beast as a Jund staple), new Jund actually gained even more than it lost: losing BBE and Lily, gaining Lurrus, Bauble, Spellbomb, and Seal. Decks like Jund always had a lot of fixed slots with only a little room for flexibility in new cards; most of its flexibility was in card ratios. New Jund is the same way, just with different cards.

This highlights the point that we need to be nuanced when we analyze broken metagames. Hyperbole and overstatements often miss important metagame details which hurt our ability to have accurate conversations about the format.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

I'll just say that I find Yorion decks (specifically Soulherder, million creature ETB.dec) are considerably more annoying than pretty much any Lurrus deck I've faced. Their endless value trains, fueled by Soulherder (and Yorion itself) means that games drag on forever. Not in a productive way, like working towards a conclusion, just endless "kill your thing, blink my thing, play another thing, blink all my things, but all my things have 1-2 power and I'm not attacking with them because I don't want them to die so I can blink them again! Oh you're gonna remove it? Instant+Rebound blink to save Yorion! ETB triggers to blink all my other things!"

I mean, my God, I'm playing 4 Path, 3 Verdict, 3 Snap, 3 Sanctuary, with Settle and EE in the side, and I frequently struggle to keep up. Patch that with a playset of Chord to effortlessly fetch out their Reflector mages or Deputy of Detentions or whatever out of their 80 card decks, and it even makes winning with Uro hard. Uro! A card that was hailed as one of the most broken Titans we've seen!

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 11 months ago

So I got a decent offer on my 20+ years collection and sold it. MTG hasn't been the passed 2-3 years what it has been all the years before and I only see it getting worse. The amount of time I couldn't/haven't played Modern and Legacy the passed 3 years is more than half due to serious balance issues (Faithless Loothing, Hogaak, Oko) and now Veil of Summer, Astrolabe snow, Lurrus and what is yet to come has made be pull the trigger. I can't justify being into MTG when its such an expensive hobby while more than half the time I can't even play any format. Companions was the nail in the coffin since I absolutely hate the mechanic. Also my local Modern scene was already dying since Pioneer took over and Legacy is just once every 2 months I get to play it. Every new set is fundamentally breaking the eternal formats so I am out. 20+ years was a good and overall fun run and all good things must come to and end. I wish everyone the best.

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