[Official] State of Modern Thread (B&R 07/13/2020)

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FoodChainGoblins
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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
This reminds me of just a week ago when Todd Anderson was getting back into streaming Modern. He faced Arcum's Astrolabe, Uro, Titan, Veil of Summer, and T3feri and he said, "why does everything have to have 'draw a card?' Can't any cards stand on their own?"

That was pretty funny to me and Lurrus restricting future designs has meaning to me if WotC wants to continue to put "draw a card" on everything good that they print now. And the hybrid nature definitely is a problem. I read here on mtgnexus that someone said Lurrus should have cost WWBB. That would have made it more restrictive and at first, I thought the mana cost was too high. But for what Lurrus actually does, maybe that is a good cost.
It's actually absurd, if you play Standard at all you see this come up in nearly every single game, and as the removal powers up (the further away from Standard one gets) you see it at lower and lower CMC, until its Veil, or Astrolabe, and you just again get to a point I've mentioned many times now.

There is only so low in cost one can go for these types of effects. Wizards is printing itself into a hole and while Maro may think we are nowhere near the event horizon, I disagree.

How much more powerful can we go, before old formats are simply Standard? When threats from Standard are SO GOOD they compete with 25 years of design space, and 25 years of NOTED mistakes, where can we possibly go?

I am playing Arena now during this quarantine since I had sold out of MTGO. My deck is UR Flash + Yidaro, and its surprisingly competitive, you can dumpster decks trying to curve out, or that Adventure Temur deck for example BUT!

If someone is able to slip one of the value engines into play (1 card mind you in many cases) there is simply no coming back from it. Everything is about additional value, and snowballing impact until you are absolutely buried.

Its insane how powerful standard is.
I heard about that from friends who play Arena. Whenever I go to watch a friend play Arena, I watch for about 5 minutes, get bored, and then bounce, lol. It just doesn't appeal to me.

I heard of a deck running Yidaro. That looks cool as heck! I actually tried that Temur Clover deck right after Aaron Gertler won the DreamHack Anaheim tournament with it. (the dude donated half of that $40 or was it $50 thousand dollars) The deck was super fun, having so many decisions within it. It probably had too many decisions where I can't even look back and try to figure out if I took incorrect lines. Played it in 3 tournaments, going 3-0, 3-0, and 1-2. That was the last I touched Standard.

It sucks a bit to me because I want to watch the likes of Gabriel Nassif, Brad Nelson, Reid Duke, and more play Modern or Legacy on Stream, but they're always doing Standard (well, not Reid, I've seen some good content there). I want to see them play the formats I like because I like to watch to learn something.
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Yeah, I mean if you are looking for a Tempo UR deck, it's fine. Maybe it can be upgraded in Pioneer, and its essentially what Blood Moon is trying to do in Modern, minus the Moon.

Since its essentially the only archetype I desire to play, and I dont have any desire whatsoever to pay to be able to play it again in MTGO (and paper is dead obviously right now) its what I do.
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Post by drmarkb » 11 months ago

Modern won't be touched for bans next week. They need people to be happy they opened Lurrus etc. so they can play them somewhere. That somewhere is Pioneer, Standard Modern. By the time Core is out they will have taken action and reduced that list, but for now I expect no Modern ban next week.

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

It's a hilarious depressing view, but I don't think your wrong.
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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

How is this a surprise, when they let Hogaak ruin THREE GPs, after acknowledging it as a massive problem? How much more clear does it need to be? They DO NOT CARE ABOUT US.

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Post by iTaLenTZ » 11 months ago

Exactly what I predicted. Let Modern, Pioneer and Standard rot to sell packs.

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Post by ThatStoryTeller » 11 months ago

Historic documentation and the arguments that most people are operating on- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/is ... y-of-magic
And to highlight Cfusionpm's point-

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Even Forsythe getting in on it. I cant lie, I laugh a little that it is clear that a meaningful portion of the vocal audience is howling right now.

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Post by Albegas » 11 months ago

Once you remember Tarmo, Once Upon a Time, and Sylvan Library, that becomes an almost silly question. I actually do like this current trend of trying to get input from sources outside of Play and Design, but some of the things they're asking kind of scare me because they seem like really important design philosophies, and yet not only do they believe in their current design philosophies, they're turning to Twitter to get input. They seriously need a moderated open forum for these kinds of discussion

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

No joke, I think this just put's out there in the wild that they have a monumental disconnect between what they think people want, and what invested, enfranchised players think/want.

Like these are all clearly loaded questions, poor polls, whatever, but ever single one of them have so far leaned towards, if not CLEARLY indicated, that the path the game has been on, is (just like when there was no removal/answers) THE WRONG PATH.

This goes back to what Sam Black was saying in regards to testing, this goes back to the period where they made it clear that they had been listening to 'market feedback' that Removal and Counters made people feel bad (let me play my violin for them) and that ultimately the choices they had absolutely been making intentionally were bad.for.the.game.

Dominaria was a fluke, and the game's sets even supplemental like Modern Horizon's have been more bad, than good while the impacts on Modern and Legacy and in some cases comically VINTAGE have been extremely negative.

Again, I'm not out for people to get fired, but the philosophical view that has taken us from Modern as it stood in 2014/2015, to today, is unquestionably a failure and the people have spoken.

Casuals will buy whatever. Competitive players, even casual ones that just grind online but put in HOURS over the week instead of maybe one night a month or whatever, are the ones who keep the game going as something worth investing time and money into.
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Post by blkdemonight » 11 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
metalmusic_4 wrote:
11 months ago
1) They may not ban lurrus in modern next week, or they still could. Often with high profile bans we have gotten unbans. Not every time, but there are several examples over the years. Does anyone predict any unbans at this time? I personally would love that but I expect they would not at this time.
I think they have to ban Lurrus in Modern as well. I gave an argument a few pages back and I stand by it. The combination of companion rules and Lurrus text is an absolute nightmare in terms of what it does to available design space left in Modern. This card shrinks the effective design space by so much, that Wizards essentially loses 99.99% of their ability to create new cards for the format.

Any permanent over 2 CMC except for Lurrus is gone. Planeswalkers (this is especially huge), larger creatures, enchantments, all of it. But that's not all, it also means that non permanents that are removal must be 1 to 2 mana as well, or provide overwhelming amounts of value. And, if all that isn't bad enough, it creates another Snapcaster Mage problem, which already seriously freaked them out the first time Snapcaster Mage came out.

Finally, what really does Lurrus in is that the hybrid nature makes it playable in almost anything that wants to play it. Of the 10 3 color combinations, only one can't cast Lurrus and that combination (red, green, blue) can typically make black/white mana if it really wanted to.

The card simply restricts too many future designs because it completely redefines the concept of what is playable in the format.
This reminds me of just a week ago when Todd Anderson was getting back into streaming Modern. He faced Arcum's Astrolabe, Uro, Titan, Veil of Summer, and T3feri and he said, "why does everything have to have 'draw a card?' Can't any cards stand on their own?"

That was pretty funny to me and Lurrus restricting future designs has meaning to me if WotC wants to continue to put "draw a card" on everything good that they print now. And the hybrid nature definitely is a problem. I read here on mtgnexus that someone said Lurrus should have cost WWBB. That would have made it more restrictive and at first, I thought the mana cost was too high. But for what Lurrus actually does, maybe that is a good cost.
I mentioned that earlier in the thread. Honestly why did Wizards think casting from outside of the game creatures with mana costs and abilities so flexible they're powerful generics was a good idea? Lurrus would have been fine mana cost wise if it only brought back black or white Cats with less than or equal to 2 converted mana cost. As it is it needed a stricter cost or a drawback like exiling all of your cards that hit your own graveyard.

I do find it funny and sad Lurrus invalidates planeswalkers due to sheer power and deck building restrictions rather than as an answer. To think Wizards spent so much pushing planeswalkers just for 1 cat to chase them away.

And for the record free draws needs to stop. Whether as triggers or spell resolutions for reasons unrelated to drawing. That's how we'll end up with new answers better than Force of Will, Leyline of the Void and Swords to plowshares in the near future.. ..as bulk commons.

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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

FoodChainGoblins wrote:
11 months ago
This reminds me of just a week ago when Todd Anderson was getting back into streaming Modern. He faced Arcum's Astrolabe, Uro, Titan, Veil of Summer, and T3feri and he said, "why does everything have to have 'draw a card?' Can't any cards stand on their own?"

That was pretty funny to me and Lurrus restricting future designs has meaning to me if WotC wants to continue to put "draw a card" on everything good that they print now. And the hybrid nature definitely is a problem. I read here on mtgnexus that someone said Lurrus should have cost WWBB. That would have made it more restrictive and at first, I thought the mana cost was too high. But for what Lurrus actually does, maybe that is a good cost.
Draw a card isn't what limits design space. Rather it's the efficiency of drawing a card, and the requirement for that efficiency being that you play a very small subset of cards. Cards that are in the same category as a lot of permanents they like to push.

Lurrus is incredibly efficient, and even without 0 cost permanents to bring back, it's still ridiculous. In order to play the card, you can't play any permanents above 2 CMC which eliminates most creatures and all planeswalkers except Wrenn and Tibalt (and flip jace/gideon if you want to count them). This is bad because it removes huge chunks of viable decks from the game, and greatly restricts design space on everything from big cards, to midrange cards, to removal, to value propositions when determining what is worth playing.

I just don't see WotC allowing that to remain.

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Post by FoodChainGoblins » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
No joke, I think this just put's out there in the wild that they have a monumental disconnect between what they think people want, and what invested, enfranchised players think/want.

Like these are all clearly loaded questions, poor polls, whatever, but ever single one of them have so far leaned towards, if not CLEARLY indicated, that the path the game has been on, is (just like when there was no removal/answers) THE WRONG PATH.

This goes back to what Sam Black was saying in regards to testing, this goes back to the period where they made it clear that they had been listening to 'market feedback' that Removal and Counters made people feel bad (let me play my violin for them) and that ultimately the choices they had absolutely been making intentionally were bad.for.the.game.

Dominaria was a fluke, and the game's sets even supplemental like Modern Horizon's have been more bad, than good while the impacts on Modern and Legacy and in some cases comically VINTAGE have been extremely negative.

Again, I'm not out for people to get fired, but the philosophical view that has taken us from Modern as it stood in 2014/2015, to today, is unquestionably a failure and the people have spoken.

Casuals will buy whatever. Competitive players, even casual ones that just grind online but put in HOURS over the week instead of maybe one night a month or whatever, are the ones who keep the game going as something worth investing time and money into.
Remember, Dominaria was the last set that Richard Garfield (the creator of the game) worked on with Wizards. After that, he hasn't worked on any sets. That was the big difference, even within a team, that his influence had. :love:
Standard - Will pick up what's good when paper starts
Pre Modern - Do not own anymore
Pioneer - MBA, UB Inverter
Modern - Amulet Titan, Elementals, Yawmoth Chord, Uroza
Legacy - No more cards, will rebuy Sneak Show when I can
Limited - Will start when paper starts
Commander - Nope

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Post by metalmusic_4 » 11 months ago

I agree. It may not all happen on monday but in the next 6 months I expect lurrus to be banned (not restricted) in legacy/vintage and modern. Or maybe more, but I don't know enough about pioneer, standard or any other formats to guess on those.

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Post by Aazadan » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
Even Forsythe getting in on it. I cant lie, I laugh a little that it is clear that a meaningful portion of the vocal audience is howling right now.
I think this is a very fair question to ask people. I don't use Twitter but I'm on the side that I hope the best green 2 drop hasn't been printed, hell I'll go a step further and say I hope that the best blue 2 drop hasn't been printed either. That said, I feel like WotC is in a race with their insane power inflation to see how quickly they can get to that point. This is a mistake in my opinion.

First of all, if they hit that peak, then it's all downhill from there and their ability to print new designs will be less exciting.

Second of all, powerful cards necessitate powerful cards to counteract them. What is the best way to deal with a 2 drop right now? Can that method stand up to what would be the best 2 drop of all time? If not, then we definitely shouldn't see the best 2 drop ever right now.

Third, one of the pressure points that breaks Magic is very high power levels. Is it wise to even approach the limits of the best 2 drop possible? Or should development pick a point weaker than that and not approach the pinnacle of power, in much the same reasoning as why they occasionally ban cards to diversify a color? It's a good thing when there isn't a single best card to rally around.
I agree. It may not all happen on monday but in the next 6 months I expect lurrus to be banned (not restricted) in legacy/vintage and modern. Or maybe more, but I don't know enough about pioneer, standard or any other formats to guess on those.
I hadn't thought about this actually. The rule set of vintage is that it doesn't ban, it only restricts. But Lurrus is literally impossible to restrict because it's already a 1 of. This is going to require either changing the rules in Vintage, or banning the mechanic (there is precedent with the conspiracy mechanic, and ante). I suspect they'll go with the mechanic ban in Vintage, saying that the restriction only requirement limits design space and they might want to play in that area again one day. I also suspect that no one in Vintage will be upset by that.

In Legacy it will be banned, maybe Modern too... I'm hoping it was a typo we were forgotten. I suspect a ban in Pioneer as well, because again if for no other reason, Lurrus annihilates viable design space. And they definitely don't want that noose around the neck of their new format.

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Post by cfusionpm » 11 months ago

I almost feel sorry for WOTC. I mean, think of it: their next set, and possibly next two sets are done, packaged, ready to go. So whatever mistakes are in those sets are... well, they know them better than we do. I have a hard time thinking they would suddenly and randomly drop the power. All these sets we see now were designed 2 years ago and finalized at least 1 year ago. We got plenty of misery to come, and WOTC staff know it.

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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

cfusionpm wrote:
11 months ago
I almost feel sorry for WOTC. I mean, think of it: their next set, and possibly next two sets are done, packaged, ready to go. So whatever mistakes are in those sets are... well, they know them better than we do. I have a hard time thinking they would suddenly and randomly drop the power. All these sets we see now were designed 2 years ago and finalized at least 1 year ago. We got plenty of misery to come, and WOTC staff know it.
Yep, unless they somehow luck into something (Dom + Rav was admittedly a great Standard, most fun I've had in a very long time with Magic) it's going to lead to just fatigue.

Wizard's is probably running these polls with those upcoming sets in mind, trying to figure out how to message them.
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Post by idSurge » 11 months ago

Aazadan wrote:
11 months ago
Third, one of the pressure points that breaks Magic is very high power levels. Is it wise to even approach the limits of the best 2 drop possible? Or should development pick a point weaker than that and not approach the pinnacle of power, in much the same reasoning as why they occasionally ban cards to diversify a color? It's a good thing when there isn't a single best card to rally around.
I agree with your other 2 points, but this is the big one to me. IMO, no, they shouldnt even bother trying, what is the upside? There is literally zero incentive to me, to replace what has come before, which is formative.

Imagine if they printed R - Instant - 4 Damage to Any Target, Draw a card. WTF would be the point? Sure, its a better bolt, so what?

To me, there is ZERO value in releasing a better Goyf. Literally nothing to be gained from it. So why? I want DIFFERENT cards, not strictly better.
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Post by blkdemonight » 11 months ago

What I find sadder is that Konami is taking advantage of Wizards mishandling of Arena. Arena is getting only an update for Brawl next week according to their Monday announcement.
Yet Konami decided to actually nerf decks that were destroying the meta in their Duel Links app, which also has a pc version on Steam platform. They did this sometime after Monday's announcement.

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Post by Amalgam » 11 months ago

blkdemonight wrote:
11 months ago
What I find sadder is that Konami is taking advantage of Wizards mishandling of Arena. Arena is getting only an update for Brawl next week according to their Monday announcement.
Yet Konami decided to actually nerf decks that were destroying the meta in their Duel Links app, which also has a pc version on Steam platform. They did this sometime after Monday's announcement.
Honestly when it comes to arena WOTC come off as a bunch of ametuers. They are too slow to release anything on it and the fact it wasn't released alongside a mobile client should have been an automatic red flag.

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Post by Ym1r » 11 months ago

idSurge wrote:
11 months ago
I want DIFFERENT cards, not strictly better.
Yeah I am sure you do. That is why you were open in trying out the companion mechanic, because you like to see experimentation.

Let's be honest, this thread has NOTHING to do with Modern any more. This thread is basically a message board for 1) bashing wizards that they love the market and hate the players "THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT US" 2) claiming that literally everyone and their mom in wizards is an incompetent designer who has no idea how to design any cards (completely disregarding that there are a lot of people working for countless hours to bring these sets out, with or without mistakes) 3) all eternal formats are ruined forever because wizards only cares about commander standard.

All are absurd claims, mostly delivered in 1-liner posts (or 2-3 sentences at best), ignoring any data driven attempt for discussion by Ktk.
Every time I come back here I regret it 101%. The entire concept of this forum, from MTGS to here was, for me at least, an excellent place and format to actually discuss issues, discuss decks, innovate, learn new things. With the exception of 1-2 excellent posters, confined in this thread, there is nothing new to learn about Magic here, not right now at least.

We GOT IT. You hate magic as it is, you made your point 1000 times already. Is there ANY way that we can start a normal discussion now?
Counter, draw a card.

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Post by The Fluff » 11 months ago

Ym1r wrote:
11 months ago
Let's be honest, this thread has NOTHING to do with Modern any more. This thread is basically a message board for 1) bashing wizards that they love the market and hate the players "THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT US" 2) claiming that literally everyone and their mom in wizards is an incompetent designer who has no idea how to design any cards (completely disregarding that there are a lot of people working for countless hours to bring these sets out, with or without mistakes) 3) all eternal formats are ruined forever because wizards only cares about commander standard.
in my eyes, this thread is starting to look like a more bizarre version of 4chan...

not pointing at anyone. only my observation of the thread as a whole.
All are absurd claims, mostly delivered in 1-liner posts (or 2-3 sentences at best), ignoring any data driven attempt for discussion by Ktk.
Every time I come back here I regret it 101%. The entire concept of this forum, from MTGS to here was, for me at least, an excellent place and format to actually discuss issues, discuss decks, innovate, learn new things. With the exception of 1-2 excellent posters, confined in this thread, there is nothing new to learn about Magic here, not right now at least.
referring to bolded part. ktken's article was appreciated by people I shared it to on another forum. Which is why I still peek here from time to time... because there might be more data to see.
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Post by iTaLenTZ » 11 months ago

The problem is it is pointless to discuss a meta when paper magic doesn't exist and while everyone knows in 2-3 months from now Lurrus will be banned anyway and the meta will change again. You can't have a flourishing discussion about deckbuilding, meta's, innovation etc so everyone is kinda frustrated and showing it because that is they only thing they can expres right now. This current mete will only last 2 more months and that's it. I rather discuss the post-Lurrus meta. Where do we go from there? Astrolabe was a problem, is a problem and with Lurrus gone will again be the dominant problem. All the attention is now on Lurrus but people forget Modern has and had huge fundamental format problems before Lurrus and that discussion is kinda dead now.

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Post by The Fluff » 11 months ago

Greeksis wrote:
11 months ago
Do you honestly want EVERY companion banned in Modern and/or Pioneer? I am trying to play Zirda in Pioneer and make it work in modern as well. Why is that a problem? I would appreciate if there was a discussion about a Modern Zirda deck or a Modern kaheera deck(I know that's got to be a little too garbage-y). I would appreciate if my posts about the positive side of companions would not be buried underneath endless "your logic about the companions is flawed" one liners. For this reason, I don't write anything anymore. I just want to test new cards. Fortunately enough, over down the Pioneer thread, there is a better discussion going on, not that much, but there is some productivity going on.
me and my brother have an entire modern deck already built to make use of Obosh. The only thing stopping us is USPS card shipping is blocked by my country due to corona. But we are in high spirits to play this companion someday. Even have the companion token cards - the card you put them on top of - also on my cart in anticipation for the day we have the physical card.

I feel Kaheera is too weak for modern, but he has a better chance in pioneer where the power level is a bit lower. Going to spend some effort trying to make him work.. if not, then it's still fine. We'll just play him casually.
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Post by Cyanu » 11 months ago

you mean the pressence of people who haven't played the game for years and still keep complaining about it because they literally have so little respect for their (apparently abundant) free time is detrimental to meanigful discussions? shocking!

that said this time there are alot of things to dislike about the direction mtg as a whole has taken the last couple of years and modern has suffered the most from it- having played it from the very beggining i barely recognize it anymore, BUT if it comes from people who always complain no matter what the discussion has no value, nor can they provide any meaningful feedback

fun fact: i have won a wagger (just a free coffee nothing big) from this thread, my bet was that Twin would still be banned in 2020 and someone i don't even need to name and you already know who i'm talking about would still be posting non-stop about it, cheers to another 5 years!

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